30 degrees advanced which direction.

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30 degrees advanced which direction.

Mark Grasser
So I forgot which rotation my motor is advanced and I have gone through so
many different planed starts for an EV that now I am starting to assemble..

Is there an easy way to test and see which direction I am advanced?

 

 

Mark Grasser

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Re: 30 degrees advanced which direction.

Mark Grasser
So using a 12 volt battery and connecting the field/armature for one
direction I get 32 amps flat out. Reversing direction I get 30 amps flat
out. Repeated a couple of times to be sure. Is it safe to say the lower
current direction is the advanced direction?

Mark Grasser

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Mark Grasser
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 7:54 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: [EVDL] 30 degrees advanced which direction.

So I forgot which rotation my motor is advanced and I have gone through so
many different planed starts for an EV that now I am starting to assemble..

Is there an easy way to test and see which direction I am advanced?

 

 

Mark Grasser

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Re: 30 degrees advanced which direction.

Dennis Miles
In reply to this post by Mark Grasser
Mark, curiously, with a series motor with electromagnetic field we usualy
make only two connections to the motor and use a jumper across the other two
of the four terminals. as long as the jumper is in the original position the
polarity of the (+) and (-) on the two supply wires from the controller
makes no difference in direction of rotation.
Regards,
Dennis Lee Miles
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 7:54 PM, Mark Grasser <[hidden email]>wrote:

> So I forgot which rotation my motor is advanced and I have gone through so
> many different planed starts for an EV that now I am starting to assemble..
>
> Is there an easy way to test and see which direction I am advanced?
>
>
>
>
>
> Mark Grasser
>
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Re: 30 degrees advanced which direction.

Mark Grasser
In reply to this post by Mark Grasser
So then I decided to pull the brush end off and found that the new mounting
holes are in what I will call the CCW direction from stock. (from the rear
of the motor) This means that the motor is meant to run in the CCW
direction. Am I correct in this assumption? Coincidentally this is also the
direction of higher current. Does this make sense?

Mark Grasser

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Mark Grasser
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 8:08 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 30 degrees advanced which direction.

So using a 12 volt battery and connecting the field/armature for one
direction I get 32 amps flat out. Reversing direction I get 30 amps flat
out. Repeated a couple of times to be sure. Is it safe to say the lower
current direction is the advanced direction?

Mark Grasser

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Mark Grasser
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 7:54 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: [EVDL] 30 degrees advanced which direction.

So I forgot which rotation my motor is advanced and I have gone through so
many different planed starts for an EV that now I am starting to assemble..

Is there an easy way to test and see which direction I am advanced?

 

 

Mark Grasser

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Re: 30 degrees advanced which direction.

Mark Grasser
In reply to this post by Dennis Miles
Dennis,
Key work is "usually"

Jim Husted did three motors for me, all have extra studs and have to be
wired so I could do what I want. Not sure what that meant but I wanted
flexibility?

I have to go dig now.

Mark Grasser

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Dennis Miles
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 8:21 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 30 degrees advanced which direction.

Mark, curiously, with a series motor with electromagnetic field we usualy
make only two connections to the motor and use a jumper across the other two
of the four terminals. as long as the jumper is in the original position the
polarity of the (+) and (-) on the two supply wires from the controller
makes no difference in direction of rotation.
Regards,
Dennis Lee Miles
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 7:54 PM, Mark Grasser
<[hidden email]>wrote:

> So I forgot which rotation my motor is advanced and I have gone through so
> many different planed starts for an EV that now I am starting to
assemble..

>
> Is there an easy way to test and see which direction I am advanced?
>
>
>
>
>
> Mark Grasser
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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Re: 30 degrees advanced which direction.

Mark Grasser
In reply to this post by Dennis Miles
Thinking harder now I seem to remember that if the brushes are centered over
the field pole it is at zero. This appears to be where the brushes are as
shipped. If I mount to the other holes he supplied then the brushes are
clockwise as viewed from the rear. I will try this and post.+

Mark Grasser

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Dennis Miles
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 8:21 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 30 degrees advanced which direction.

Mark, curiously, with a series motor with electromagnetic field we usualy
make only two connections to the motor and use a jumper across the other two
of the four terminals. as long as the jumper is in the original position the
polarity of the (+) and (-) on the two supply wires from the controller
makes no difference in direction of rotation.
Regards,
Dennis Lee Miles
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 7:54 PM, Mark Grasser
<[hidden email]>wrote:

> So I forgot which rotation my motor is advanced and I have gone through so
> many different planed starts for an EV that now I am starting to
assemble..

>
> Is there an easy way to test and see which direction I am advanced?
>
>
>
>
>
> Mark Grasser
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
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hment.html
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Re: 30 degrees advanced which direction.

Jeff Major
In reply to this post by Mark Grasser
Hi Mark,

30 degrees is way, way too much.  Advance of 4 to 12 degrees is typical.  Jim H leans a little heavy IMO.  But 30 degrees, I don't think so.  These are 4 pole motors.  So a 45 degree shift would give you no torque at all.  A 90 degree shift would reverse direction of torque (and rotation).  

As far as the direction of advance for a motor, check Jim's web site.  He has (or used to have) a clear photo description with marks.  But you want to rotate the brush contact line on the commutator in the opposite direction than which the motor rotates.  This makes the armature coils commutate in advance of the normal neutral position, hence "advanced".  The normal neutral position of brush contact on the comm surface is usually in line with the center of the poles, where they are bolted to the frame.

Regards,

Jeff M

--- On Tue, 8/24/10, Mark Grasser <[hidden email]> wrote:


> So I forgot which rotation my motor
> is advanced and I have gone through so
> many different planed starts for an EV that now I am
> starting to assemble..
>
> Is there an easy way to test and see which direction I am
> advanced?
>



     

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Re: 30 degrees advanced which direction.

Mark Grasser
Thanks,
I am slowly coming around. 30 degrees must be from my ICE days. I found an
email mine is 10 degrees. Still working on direction. I will go to Jims site
tomorrow.

Thanks,
Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Jeff Major
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 9:11 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 30 degrees advanced which direction.

Hi Mark,

30 degrees is way, way too much.  Advance of 4 to 12 degrees is typical.
Jim H leans a little heavy IMO.  But 30 degrees, I don't think so.  These
are 4 pole motors.  So a 45 degree shift would give you no torque at all.  A
90 degree shift would reverse direction of torque (and rotation).  

As far as the direction of advance for a motor, check Jim's web site.  He
has (or used to have) a clear photo description with marks.  But you want to
rotate the brush contact line on the commutator in the opposite direction
than which the motor rotates.  This makes the armature coils commutate in
advance of the normal neutral position, hence "advanced".  The normal
neutral position of brush contact on the comm surface is usually in line
with the center of the poles, where they are bolted to the frame.

Regards,

Jeff M

--- On Tue, 8/24/10, Mark Grasser <[hidden email]> wrote:


> So I forgot which rotation my motor
> is advanced and I have gone through so
> many different planed starts for an EV that now I am
> starting to assemble..
>
> Is there an easy way to test and see which direction I am
> advanced?
>



     

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Re: 30 degrees advanced which direction.

Mike Nickerson
In reply to this post by Mark Grasser
Hi Mark,

Jim does have a great explanation and pictures on his web site.  Definitely
check them out.  To answer some of your questions:

  -  Most motors are shipped to rotate CCW.  Most ICE engines also rotate
that way.  Honda motors usually rotate CW instead.
  -  The brush timing for high speed and high current is usually advanced
about 10 degrees.
  -  I have heard that neutral timing works best at slow speeds, but is
usually not advanced enough at highway speeds and currents so you start to
get arcing. For example, I've heard that many forklifts run at neutral
timing.  They aren't running high speed though.

I know from painful experience what happens when your motor is advanced 10
degrees for CCW, but run at 70 MPH with a CW rotation.  I have pictures
showing about half the brush springs melted, broken or missing, some of the
brushes melted and parts of the brush spring holder melted or broken.  I am
assuming we had some really spectacular arcing going on inside the motor.
I can forward pictures to you off-list if you're interested.

Bottom-line, get the brush timing right.  You will use a lot less power and
won't damage your motor.  Otherwise, it's a pretty quick way to damage about
$200 worth of parts.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Mark Grasser
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 6:22 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 30 degrees advanced which direction.

So then I decided to pull the brush end off and found that the new mounting
holes are in what I will call the CCW direction from stock. (from the rear
of the motor) This means that the motor is meant to run in the CCW
direction. Am I correct in this assumption? Coincidentally this is also the
direction of higher current. Does this make sense?

Mark Grasser

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Mark Grasser
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 8:08 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 30 degrees advanced which direction.

So using a 12 volt battery and connecting the field/armature for one
direction I get 32 amps flat out. Reversing direction I get 30 amps flat
out. Repeated a couple of times to be sure. Is it safe to say the lower
current direction is the advanced direction?

Mark Grasser

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Mark Grasser
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 7:54 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: [EVDL] 30 degrees advanced which direction.

So I forgot which rotation my motor is advanced and I have gone through so
many different planed starts for an EV that now I am starting to assemble..

Is there an easy way to test and see which direction I am advanced?

 

 

Mark Grasser

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Re: 30 degrees advanced which direction.

Peter VanDerWal
Neutral timing is usually used on motors that have to run in both
directions.  I believe this is the main reason why forklift motors are set
to neutral.


> Jim does have a great explanation and pictures on his web site.
> Definitely
> check them out.  To answer some of your questions:
>
>   -  Most motors are shipped to rotate CCW.  Most ICE engines also rotate
> that way.  Honda motors usually rotate CW instead.
>   -  The brush timing for high speed and high current is usually advanced
> about 10 degrees.
>   -  I have heard that neutral timing works best at slow speeds, but is
> usually not advanced enough at highway speeds and currents so you start to
> get arcing. For example, I've heard that many forklifts run at neutral
> timing.  They aren't running high speed though.
>
> I know from painful experience what happens when your motor is advanced 10
> degrees for CCW, but run at 70 MPH with a CW rotation.  I have pictures
> showing about half the brush springs melted, broken or missing, some of
> the
> brushes melted and parts of the brush spring holder melted or broken.  I
> am
> assuming we had some really spectacular arcing going on inside the motor.
> I can forward pictures to you off-list if you're interested.
>
> Bottom-line, get the brush timing right.  You will use a lot less power
> and
> won't damage your motor.  Otherwise, it's a pretty quick way to damage
> about
> $200 worth of parts.
>
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf
> Of Mark Grasser
> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 6:22 PM
> To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] 30 degrees advanced which direction.
>
> So then I decided to pull the brush end off and found that the new
> mounting
> holes are in what I will call the CCW direction from stock. (from the rear
> of the motor) This means that the motor is meant to run in the CCW
> direction. Am I correct in this assumption? Coincidentally this is also
> the
> direction of higher current. Does this make sense?
>
> Mark Grasser
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf
> Of Mark Grasser
> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 8:08 PM
> To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] 30 degrees advanced which direction.
>
> So using a 12 volt battery and connecting the field/armature for one
> direction I get 32 amps flat out. Reversing direction I get 30 amps flat
> out. Repeated a couple of times to be sure. Is it safe to say the lower
> current direction is the advanced direction?
>
> Mark Grasser
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf
> Of Mark Grasser
> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 7:54 PM
> To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: [EVDL] 30 degrees advanced which direction.
>
> So I forgot which rotation my motor is advanced and I have gone through so
> many different planed starts for an EV that now I am starting to
> assemble..
>
> Is there an easy way to test and see which direction I am advanced?
>
>
>
>
>
> Mark Grasser
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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Re: 30 degrees advanced which direction.

Lee Hart
[hidden email] wrote:
> Neutral timing is usually used on motors that have to run in both
> directions.  I believe this is the main reason why forklift motors are set
> to neutral.
>  
Neutral timing is also used when you have regenerative braking. Both
reverse and regen  require reversing the direction of current flow in
the motor, which reverses the direction of the shift for minimum brush
arcing. The motor gets timed at neutral, so it works equally well (or
equally poorly) for both forward and reverse, motoring and generating.

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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