AA, AAA, C, D batteries for the electric car

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AA, AAA, C, D batteries for the electric car

the_reid11
i was reading a site where they said you can use nihm rechargeable batteries for an electric car but would have to have about 200 of them, has anyone else heard of this
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Re: AA, AAA, C, D batteries for the electric car

Jeffrey Jenkins
the_reid11 wrote
i was reading a site where they said you can use nihm rechargeable batteries for an electric car but would have to have about 200 of them, has anyone else heard of this
Anything's possible...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wneCRRb0Y5U

On a more serious note, you could MAYBE do this with D cells. The most powerful NiMH D cells have 10Ah of capacity and with a 1.2V nominal voltage that would give you a total capacity of 2.4kWh. An efficient and lightweight conversion might require 240Wh/mi so you could conceivably drive 10 miles on a battery pack of 200 NiMH D cells.

That pack would cost over $1500, though, which is kinda pricey for so little capacity. Still, NiMH love being fully discharged, so that's a plus!

:)
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Re: AA, AAA, C, D batteries for the electric car

Jeff Major
In reply to this post by the_reid11
Those NiMH cells can be a problem to charge in parallel groups.  Ask me how I know ;-(

--- On Tue, 8/10/10, Jeffrey Jenkins <[hidden email]> wrote:

the_reid11 wrote:
>
> i was reading a site where they said you can use nihm rechargeable
> batteries for an electric car but would have to have about 200 of them,
> has anyone else heard of this
>
>

Anything's possible...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wneCRRb0Y5U

On a more serious note, you could MAYBE do this with D cells. The most
powerful NiMH D cells have 10Ah of capacity and with a 1.2V nominal voltage
that would give you a total capacity of 2.4kWh. An efficient and lightweight
conversion might require 240Wh/mi so you could conceivably drive 10 miles on
a battery pack of 200 NiMH D cells.

That pack would cost over $1500, though, which is kinda pricey for so little
capacity. Still, NiMH love being fully discharged, so that's a plus!

:)



     

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Re: AA, AAA, C, D batteries for the electric car

Myles Twete
>Those NiMH cells can be a problem to charge in parallel groups.  Ask me how
I know ;-(

Yes.
As mentioned many times on this list---don't parallel NiMH cells.
Here's my understanding why:
The charge profile for NiMH is to charge until the voltage peaks and then
drops a certain amount.  This represents a reduced internal resistance and
any further charging will cause the cell to overheat.
If you parallel cells, during charge, one cell will likely reach its peak
before the others.  When it does, it will start drawing more, not less, of
the shared current and its sister cells won't let its voltage drop so the
charger won't detect that the cell has reached its peak---it will then
overheat, drawing the bulk of the charge power and power from its adjacent
cells.


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Re: AA, AAA, C, D batteries for the electric car

Jeff Major
I thought the fire was a pretty good clue for me :-)

--- On Wed, 8/11/10, Myles Twete <[hidden email]> wrote:

> >Those NiMH cells can be a problem
> to charge in parallel groups.  Ask me how
> I know ;-(
>
> Yes.
> As mentioned many times on this list---don't parallel NiMH
> cells.
> Here's my understanding why:
> The charge profile for NiMH is to charge until the voltage
> peaks and then
> drops a certain amount.  This represents a reduced
> internal resistance and
> any further charging will cause the cell to overheat.
> If you parallel cells, during charge, one cell will likely
> reach its peak
> before the others.  When it does, it will start
> drawing more, not less, of
> the shared current and its sister cells won't let its
> voltage drop so the
> charger won't detect that the cell has reached its
> peak---it will then
> overheat, drawing the bulk of the charge power and power
> from its adjacent cells.



     

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Re: AA, AAA, C, D batteries for the electric car

Harris, Lawrence
In reply to this post by Myles Twete
This also affects series NiMH cells in that when one peaks in a series it may not be enough to notify the charger and so will continue to be charged at a high rate and overheat ... or it may trigger the charger to shut down and cause others in the string to not be fully charged.  So while these are quite robust cells in general, to get maximum life you really need to treat them like lithium cells. On charge you need to monitor each one separately and on discharge reserve 10% or so to try and keep a weak cell from reversing and periodically do a slow discharge / full charge to rebalance the whole string.

Lawrence

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Myles Twete
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 9:59 AM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] AA, AAA, C, D batteries for the electric car

>Those NiMH cells can be a problem to charge in parallel groups.  Ask me how
I know ;-(

Yes.
As mentioned many times on this list---don't parallel NiMH cells.
Here's my understanding why:
The charge profile for NiMH is to charge until the voltage peaks and then
drops a certain amount.  This represents a reduced internal resistance and
any further charging will cause the cell to overheat.
If you parallel cells, during charge, one cell will likely reach its peak
before the others.  When it does, it will start drawing more, not less, of
the shared current and its sister cells won't let its voltage drop so the
charger won't detect that the cell has reached its peak---it will then
overheat, drawing the bulk of the charge power and power from its adjacent
cells.


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Re: AA, AAA, C, D batteries for the electric car

Cor van de Water
In reply to this post by the_reid11
Actually,
most practical chargers have difficulty detecting
the reversal of dV/dt as this can be masked by a
lot of other effects, especially in household
single-cell chargers where contact resistance
variations alone can completely mess up any
attempt to reliably detect a NiMH cell getting
full by voltage drop, so the simple way that
those practical chargers detect a full cell is...
temperature.
As soon as you start over-charging, it gets warm
so you switch the charger off (or to a small
trickle) as soon as you hit the temp threshold.
Fancier is even to detect a dT/dt (temp rise,
independent from ambient and starting temp)
but the idea is very valid also for (long)
series strings where not all cells will peak
at the same point.
Simply make sure you have temp sensors in the
pack and if you try to reach 100% and/or go for
a balance charge then stop when it gets warm...
For max life you would normally not charge to
max SoC but keep the cells floating about 85%
or so is what gives the Prius and other Hybrids
a very long service life.
 
Indeed - charge separately, never in parallel.
You may discharge in parallel though, so you
would need multiple contactors to charge strings
separately and for discharge (drive) connect
them all together.

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Harris, Lawrence
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 11:41 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] AA, AAA, C, D batteries for the electric car

This also affects series NiMH cells in that when one peaks in a series
it may not be enough to notify the charger and so will continue to be
charged at a high rate and overheat ... or it may trigger the charger to
shut down and cause others in the string to not be fully charged.  So
while these are quite robust cells in general, to get maximum life you
really need to treat them like lithium cells. On charge you need to
monitor each one separately and on discharge reserve 10% or so to try
and keep a weak cell from reversing and periodically do a slow discharge
/ full charge to rebalance the whole string.

Lawrence

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Myles Twete
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 9:59 AM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] AA, AAA, C, D batteries for the electric car

>Those NiMH cells can be a problem to charge in parallel groups.  Ask me

>how
I know ;-(

Yes.
As mentioned many times on this list---don't parallel NiMH cells.
Here's my understanding why:
The charge profile for NiMH is to charge until the voltage peaks and
then drops a certain amount.  This represents a reduced internal
resistance and any further charging will cause the cell to overheat.
If you parallel cells, during charge, one cell will likely reach its
peak before the others.  When it does, it will start drawing more, not
less, of the shared current and its sister cells won't let its voltage
drop so the charger won't detect that the cell has reached its peak---it
will then overheat, drawing the bulk of the charge power and power from
its adjacent cells.


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Re: AA, AAA, C, D batteries for the electric car

Peter Gabrielsson
In reply to this post by the_reid11
On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 8:17 AM, the_reid11 <[hidden email]> wrote:
>i was reading a site where they said you can use nihm rechargeable batteries for an electric car but would have to have about 200 of them, has anyone else heard of this
>


The RAV4 EVs used about 240 100Ah NiMH Cells.

If you're referring to smaller ones that you can actually buy, you'll
need a few more.

--
www.electric-lemon.com

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Re: AA, AAA, C, D batteries for the electric car

Gary Krysztopik-2
In reply to this post by Myles Twete
Does this voltage peak apply to NiZn?

Gary Krysztopik
ZWheelz, LLC - www.ZWheelz.com
Alamo City Electric Auto Association - www.aceaa.org
blog - http://voices.mysanantonio.com/drive_electric_san_antonio/ 
San Antonio, TX



Myles Twete wrote:

>> Those NiMH cells can be a problem to charge in parallel groups.  Ask me how
>>    
> I know ;-(
>
> Yes.
> As mentioned many times on this list---don't parallel NiMH cells.
> Here's my understanding why:
> The charge profile for NiMH is to charge until the voltage peaks and then
> drops a certain amount.  This represents a reduced internal resistance and
> any further charging will cause the cell to overheat.
> If you parallel cells, during charge, one cell will likely reach its peak
> before the others.  When it does, it will start drawing more, not less, of
> the shared current and its sister cells won't let its voltage drop so the
> charger won't detect that the cell has reached its peak---it will then
> overheat, drawing the bulk of the charge power and power from its adjacent
> cells.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
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>
>
>  

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Re: AA, AAA, C, D batteries for the electric car

dazzorick
In reply to this post by Peter Gabrielsson
144volts - @ 1.2volts per cell you need 120 of the little suckers in series.
then to get 180Ah you would have to parellel 20 or these... 2400 .... at
$5.00 each ?

i spent some time researching the possibility of building 12 volt packs and
doing parellel series to get the needed volts and amps. even after the good
price i can get here in china the price is still about the same as lithium.
since the best NiMH is the 9Ah D cell - putting them all together would be a
real mess. then figuring out a system to charge single strings because you
CANNOT charge them in parellel is too much of a pain... so i guess i will
stick with the LiFePO4 ....

good news personally - i am finally in a financial position that i can do my
own project and can start asking really stupid questions. i am going to get
a little pack of lithium - BMS and all - 48 volts 20Ah and build a two motor
electric bike. i can drive that here - want a motorcycle but they were
outlawed in the city center in 2008 .... so will have a overpowered bike :D

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 8:52 AM, Peter Gabrielsson <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 8:17 AM, the_reid11 <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >i was reading a site where they said you can use nihm rechargeable
> batteries for an electric car but would have to have about 200 of them, has
> anyone else heard of this
> >
>
>
> The RAV4 EVs used about 240 100Ah NiMH Cells.
>
> If you're referring to smaller ones that you can actually buy, you'll
> need a few more.
>
> --
> www.electric-lemon.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
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Re: AA, AAA, C, D batteries for the electric car

Dennis Miles
There is a man on "Long Island, NY " who rebuilds RAV4 packs. his name and
web address have been on this list but I can not recall it. He buys ones
from wrecked salvage and matches up several sets of cells to get a good one
that will last, I have been considering buying a pack from him and building
a Trike for two, tadpole, wide but short, compactly scaled vehicle.
Regards,
Dennis Miles

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:45 PM, Rick Randazzo <[hidden email]>wrote:

> 144volts - @ 1.2volts per cell you need 120 of the little suckers in
> series.
> then to get 180Ah you would have to parellel 20 or these... 2400 .... at
> $5.00 each ?
>
> i spent some time researching the possibility of building 12 volt packs and
> doing parellel series to get the needed volts and amps. even after the good
> price i can get here in china the price is still about the same as lithium.
> since the best NiMH is the 9Ah D cell - putting them all together would be
> a
> real mess. then figuring out a system to charge single strings because you
> CANNOT charge them in parellel is too much of a pain... so i guess i will
> stick with the LiFePO4 ....
>
> good news personally - i am finally in a financial position that i can do
> my
> own project and can start asking really stupid questions. i am going to get
> a little pack of lithium - BMS and all - 48 volts 20Ah and build a two
> motor
> electric bike. i can drive that here - want a motorcycle but they were
> outlawed in the city center in 2008 .... so will have a overpowered bike :D
>
> On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 8:52 AM, Peter Gabrielsson <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 8:17 AM, the_reid11 <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > >i was reading a site where they said you can use nihm rechargeable
> > batteries for an electric car but would have to have about 200 of them,
> has
> > anyone else heard of this
> > >
> >
> >
> > The RAV4 EVs used about 240 100Ah NiMH Cells.
> >
> > If you're referring to smaller ones that you can actually buy, you'll
> > need a few more.
> >
> > --
> > www.electric-lemon.com
> >
>
>
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Re: AA, AAA, C, D batteries for the electric car

EVDL Administrator
In reply to this post by Jeff Major
On 11 Aug 2010 at 11:02, Jeff Major wrote:

> I thought the fire was a pretty good clue for me :-)

Urm, that doesn't sound so good.  Can you provide some details, so others
can avoid making the same errors?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: AA, AAA, C, D batteries for the electric car

phil hochstetler
In reply to this post by Jeffrey Jenkins
I have a Twike made in Europe.  It uses 280 "C" size nicad cells per
pack (2 or 3 packs).  It charges at 420V DC (adjustable) and drives at
around 336 volts.  I would not parallel NiCad or NiMh cells directly
due to their fully charged behavior.  They get hot (excess charge is
lost as heat up to a point) and lower their internal resistance.  If
you parallel two or more cells and they are not well matched in
capacity or charge state, you will drive one into a over
thermal/venting state before the other is fully charged.  The way the
Twike handles this is to put a large power resistor in series with
each pack.  This resistor is shorted by a relay during charge and
discharge by the BMS. The battery management system (BMS) has voltage
and temperature sensors every 20 cells.  It uses the delta T (change
in temperature/unit time) method of terminating the charge (per pack
by opening the relay).  This allows some mismatch in capacity and
voltage between *packs* to be handled cleanly.  It is not perfect but
works pretty well so it is possible to build an EV using small cells
if it is small and efficient (and you engineer the battery management
properly).  The Twike weights 520 lbs and uses about 60 to 100
watt-hours per mile.

For reference on charging (NiCad and NiMh in particular), see:

http://www.mpoweruk.com/chargers.htm

Look at the graph of Cell Voltage, Cell Temperature, and Time for
NiCad and NiMH.

Phil Hochstetler
Twike 434


the_reid11 wrote:

> i was reading a site where they said you can use nihm rechargeable
> batteries for an electric car but would have to have about 200 of them,
> has anyone else heard of this
>

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CPUC Addresses Regulatory Authority to Create Strong Market for Electrical Vehicle Charging

rodhower
http://ecmweb.com/market_trends/cpuc-electrical-vehicle-charging-20100810/

The California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC) recently concluded that companies that sell electric vehicle charging services to the public will not be regulated as “public utilities” pursuant to the Public Utilities Code.

The CPUC is evaluating alternative-fueled vehicle policies to ensure California's investor-owned electric utilities are prepared for the projected statewide growth of plug-in hybrid electric vehicles throughout California, per Senate Bill 626 (Kehoe, Chapter 355, Statutes of 2009).

The CPUC's actions provide clarity regarding the CPUC's regulatory role in the market for electric vehicle charging services. The CPUC's decision finds that the sale of electric vehicle charging services to the public does not make a corporation or person a public utility solely because of that sale, ownership, or operation. The decision also identifies ways in which the CPUC can exercise its regulatory authority to ensure that electric vehicle charging occurs in a manner that is consistent with the capabilities of the electric grid.

The proposal voted on is available here.

Source: The California Public Utilities Commission

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Re: CPUC Addresses Regulatory Authority to Create Strong Market for Electrical Vehicle Charging

Lee Hart
[hidden email] wrote:
> The California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC) recently concluded
> that companies that sell electric vehicle charging services to the
> public will not be regulated as “public utilities” pursuant to the
> Public Utilities Code.

This is great news! It breaks the (legally granted) monopoly that the
public utilities have on selling electricity. It means, for example,
that we could have parking meters with an AC outlet that gives you X KWH
for a quarter, or high power charging stations that work like
self-service gas pumps where you swipe your card to buy power.

However, I hope the CPUC is vigilant in preventing the regulatory code
for these new charging services from being *even more arduous* to meet
than public utilities regulatory code!

What public utilities think: "This is terrible! It means we don't have a
monopoly on selling power! We need to make sure this won't happen."

What public utilities do: We'll say "This is great! In fact, since we
know so much about it, we've written the regulations *for you*! Here
they are, all 1000 pages (along with a generous campaign contribution)."

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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