AM radios dropped from plugins (RFI,EMI,+)> (go digital)

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AM radios dropped from plugins (RFI,EMI,+)> (go digital)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list


https://www.warc.com/newsandopinion/news/video_didnt_kill_the_radio_star_but_electric_cars_might/41298
Video didn't kill the radio star… but electric cars might
08 November 2018  

Music cartridges didn’t see it off. Neither did cassettes, nor CDs. But AM
radio in cars might just have met its nemesis in the future of road
transport.

It seems it’s about to be killed off by electric-powered motors, according
to the Wall Street Journal: what drives Teslas at speeds that match many
petrol-driven cars, and the Chevy Bolt well over 200 miles on a single
charge, also turns AM reception on the move into unlistenable static.

The result is that electric car makers are starting to leave out the
analogue option entirely.

A General Motors spokeswoman said the manufacturer was aware of the problem
with the Bolt and had “taken steps”, but didn’t elaborate.

Experts say the problem is caused because electric vehicles produce
electromagnetic frequencies on the same wavelength as AM signals – that
produces a nasty buzzing and cause the radio signal to fade in and out.

“You get two signals that literally collide into each other and cancel each
other out before the antenna even receives the signal,” Brian McKay, head of
engine innovation and technology at the North American operations of
Continental, told the Journal.

And as electric motors are designed to be ever more powerful, so the
interference worsens. And rather than try and solve the problem, many car
makers have decided to simply drop AM radios from their electric vehicles.

Honda no longer offers them on its hybrid electric Acura NSX sports car. And
Tesla has now removed AM radios from all its current models. Instead,
drivers have to settle for an internet-based radio service, plus FM radio,
optional HD radio, and Bluetooth to smartphones for streaming music or radio
stations digitally.

It’s another blow for AM stations, many of which have already been hit by
steadily declining ad revenue.

But, while the number might be up for AM in cars of the future, that doesn’t
mean radio in other forms has lost its appeal, even in cars.

According to Nielsen, more Americans still tune into AM/FM radio than any
other platform, and 93% of US adults listen to radio every week — “more than
those watching television or using a smartphone, TV connected device, tablet
or PC”, the audience researchers say.

Sourced from Wall Street Journal, Radio World; additional content by WARC
staff
[© warc.com]
...
https://www.fcc.gov/media/radio/digital-radio
digital-radio


[dated]
Why Electric Cars Are Ditching AM Radio - Motherboard
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/.../why-electric-cars-are-ditching-am-radio
Feb 5, 2016 - BMW i3 and Tesla Model X don't offer terrestrial AM radio
because of ... the new Tesla Model X also dropped terrestrial AM radio from
its ...

Big Name Car Owners Want Their AM Radio Back | Interference ...
https://interferencetechnology.com/big-name-car-owners-want-their-am-radio-back/
Feb 10, 2016 - Meanwhile, the new Tesla Model X also dropped terrestrial AM
radio from its infotainment dashboard and instead provides most AM stations
...

The Future of AM Radio | Electronic Design
https://www.electronicdesign.com/blog/future-am-radio
Feb 17, 2016 - Can you believe AM radio is still around? Seems so retro, but
it is still useful. Nevertheless, AM radio has been in decline for years,
with many ...

Will AM And FM Radio Really Be Eliminated On New Cars? -
https://jalopnik.com/will-am-and-fm-radio-really-be-eliminated-on-new-cars-4538490...
Mar 15, 2013 - I'd love to know who the panelists were that made these
claims, and who these car companies are that will supposedly be dropping
radio.

BMW i3 electric car quirk: no AM radio offered, but why? (update)
https://www.greencarreports.com › News › Electric Cars
Sep 29, 2017 - The BMW i3 electric car is a tour de force of advanced
engineering--and it was the most energy-efficient car sold in the U.S. in
2014 and 2015.

BMW Owners Want Their AM Radio Back - Radio Ink
https://radioink.com › News › Headlines
Feb 8, 2016 - The reason BMW dropped AM was interference from the electric
drivetrain of the car blocking out the AM signal, making it fuzzy and
choppy.

BMW and Tesla have ditched AM radio but trying to get it back
https://www.bmwblog.com/.../bmw-and-tesla-have-ditched-am-radio-but-trying-to-get...
Feb 7, 2016 - BMW was the first automobile company to ditch AM radio ... The
reason for the drop of one of America's oldest broadcasting mediums is that
the ...

Reasons Your Car Radio Reception Sucks - Lifewire
https://www.lifewire.com › How To › Car Tech › Guides & Tutorials
Sep 8, 2018 - Nobody likes bad car radio reception. ... new car radio better
reception ... with interference, flutter uncontrollably, or even drop out
altogether.

AM Radio Stations make a "whir" sound as the car accellerates and ...
https://forums.tesla.com/.../am-radio-stations-make-whir-sound-car-accellerates-and-sl...
18 posts - ?13 authors
AM Radio Stations make a "whir" sound as the car accellerates and slows....
how ... That paint spot would have to be specially removed for any grounding
to the ...

https://www.google.com/search?q=AM+radios+dropped+cars
search  AM radios dropped cars
...
https://www.google.com/search?q=digital+am+radio
search  digital am radio




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

--
Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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Re: AM radios dropped from plugins (RFI, EMI, +)> (go digital)

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Is the problem radiated emissions or conducted emissions.... anyone know?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 8, 2018, at 9:19 PM, brucedp5 via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
> https://www.warc.com/newsandopinion/news/video_didnt_kill_the_radio_star_but_electric_cars_might/41298
> Video didn't kill the radio star… but electric cars might
> 08 November 2018  
>
> Music cartridges didn’t see it off. Neither did cassettes, nor CDs. But AM
> radio in cars might just have met its nemesis in the future of road
> transport.
>
> It seems it’s about to be killed off by electric-powered motors, according
> to the Wall Street Journal: what drives Teslas at speeds that match many
> petrol-driven cars, and the Chevy Bolt well over 200 miles on a single
> charge, also turns AM reception on the move into unlistenable static.
>
> The result is that electric car makers are starting to leave out the
> analogue option entirely.
>
> A General Motors spokeswoman said the manufacturer was aware of the problem
> with the Bolt and had “taken steps”, but didn’t elaborate.
>
> Experts say the problem is caused because electric vehicles produce
> electromagnetic frequencies on the same wavelength as AM signals – that
> produces a nasty buzzing and cause the radio signal to fade in and out.
>
> “You get two signals that literally collide into each other and cancel each
> other out before the antenna even receives the signal,” Brian McKay, head of
> engine innovation and technology at the North American operations of
> Continental, told the Journal.
>
> And as electric motors are designed to be ever more powerful, so the
> interference worsens. And rather than try and solve the problem, many car
> makers have decided to simply drop AM radios from their electric vehicles.
>
> Honda no longer offers them on its hybrid electric Acura NSX sports car. And
> Tesla has now removed AM radios from all its current models. Instead,
> drivers have to settle for an internet-based radio service, plus FM radio,
> optional HD radio, and Bluetooth to smartphones for streaming music or radio
> stations digitally.
>
> It’s another blow for AM stations, many of which have already been hit by
> steadily declining ad revenue.
>
> But, while the number might be up for AM in cars of the future, that doesn’t
> mean radio in other forms has lost its appeal, even in cars.
>
> According to Nielsen, more Americans still tune into AM/FM radio than any
> other platform, and 93% of US adults listen to radio every week — “more than
> those watching television or using a smartphone, TV connected device, tablet
> or PC”, the audience researchers say.
>
> Sourced from Wall Street Journal, Radio World; additional content by WARC
> staff
> [© warc.com]
> ...
> https://www.fcc.gov/media/radio/digital-radio
> digital-radio
>
>
> [dated]
> Why Electric Cars Are Ditching AM Radio - Motherboard
> https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/.../why-electric-cars-are-ditching-am-radio
> Feb 5, 2016 - BMW i3 and Tesla Model X don't offer terrestrial AM radio
> because of ... the new Tesla Model X also dropped terrestrial AM radio from
> its ...
>
> Big Name Car Owners Want Their AM Radio Back | Interference ...
> https://interferencetechnology.com/big-name-car-owners-want-their-am-radio-back/
> Feb 10, 2016 - Meanwhile, the new Tesla Model X also dropped terrestrial AM
> radio from its infotainment dashboard and instead provides most AM stations
> ...
>
> The Future of AM Radio | Electronic Design
> https://www.electronicdesign.com/blog/future-am-radio
> Feb 17, 2016 - Can you believe AM radio is still around? Seems so retro, but
> it is still useful. Nevertheless, AM radio has been in decline for years,
> with many ...
>
> Will AM And FM Radio Really Be Eliminated On New Cars? -
> https://jalopnik.com/will-am-and-fm-radio-really-be-eliminated-on-new-cars-4538490...
> Mar 15, 2013 - I'd love to know who the panelists were that made these
> claims, and who these car companies are that will supposedly be dropping
> radio.
>
> BMW i3 electric car quirk: no AM radio offered, but why? (update)
> https://www.greencarreports.com › News › Electric Cars
> Sep 29, 2017 - The BMW i3 electric car is a tour de force of advanced
> engineering--and it was the most energy-efficient car sold in the U.S. in
> 2014 and 2015.
>
> BMW Owners Want Their AM Radio Back - Radio Ink
> https://radioink.com › News › Headlines
> Feb 8, 2016 - The reason BMW dropped AM was interference from the electric
> drivetrain of the car blocking out the AM signal, making it fuzzy and
> choppy.
>
> BMW and Tesla have ditched AM radio but trying to get it back
> https://www.bmwblog.com/.../bmw-and-tesla-have-ditched-am-radio-but-trying-to-get...
> Feb 7, 2016 - BMW was the first automobile company to ditch AM radio ... The
> reason for the drop of one of America's oldest broadcasting mediums is that
> the ...
>
> Reasons Your Car Radio Reception Sucks - Lifewire
> https://www.lifewire.com › How To › Car Tech › Guides & Tutorials
> Sep 8, 2018 - Nobody likes bad car radio reception. ... new car radio better
> reception ... with interference, flutter uncontrollably, or even drop out
> altogether.
>
> AM Radio Stations make a "whir" sound as the car accellerates and ...
> https://forums.tesla.com/.../am-radio-stations-make-whir-sound-car-accellerates-and-sl...
> 18 posts - ?13 authors
> AM Radio Stations make a "whir" sound as the car accellerates and slows....
> how ... That paint spot would have to be specially removed for any grounding
> to the ...
>
> https://www.google.com/search?q=AM+radios+dropped+cars
> search  AM radios dropped cars
> ...
> https://www.google.com/search?q=digital+am+radio
> search  digital am radio
>
>
>
>
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
> http://evdl.org/archive/
>
>
> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>
> --
> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

_______________________________________________
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Re: AM radios dropped from plugins (RFI, EMI, +)> (go digital)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
paul dove via EV wrote:
> Is the problem radiated emissions or conducted emissions.... anyone know?

If radiated, it will cause problems not only for your own car; but will
also wipe out AM in the car next to it!

Our Prius has an AM radio, though it has a "tin ear" -- poor weak signal
reception. This has been a problem for me on long trips. FM stations
fade in and out as you drive, but especially at night, you can listen to
the same AM station for your entire drive.

--
Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
reliable, straightforward, readily available, easy to use, and
affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy.
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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Re: AM radios dropped from plugins (RFI, EMI, +)> (go digital)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I have a 2013 Leaf, and the AM radio works fine. Same with my old 2005 Prius.  I use the AM radio on a daily basis during my commute to work.  Not sure if it is perhaps an issue with certain radio suppliers/car manufacturers?

Tom Keenan

> On Nov 9, 2018, at 10:09 AM, Lee Hart via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> paul dove via EV wrote:
>> Is the problem radiated emissions or conducted emissions.... anyone know?
>
> If radiated, it will cause problems not only for your own car; but will also wipe out AM in the car next to it!
>
> Our Prius has an AM radio, though it has a "tin ear" -- poor weak signal reception. This has been a problem for me on long trips. FM stations fade in and out as you drive, but especially at night, you can listen to the same AM station for your entire drive.
>
> --
> Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
> reliable, straightforward, readily available, easy to use, and
> affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy.
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

_______________________________________________
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Re: AM radios dropped from plugins (RFI, EMI, +)> (go digital)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Should work fine on a local AM station, but have you stepped through all
the 100 channels to hear what it is like on weaker signals?
Bob


-----Original Message-----
From: EV <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Tom Keenan via EV
Sent: Friday, November 9, 2018 4:54 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Cc: Tom Keenan <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] AM radios dropped from plugins (RFI, EMI, +)> (go
digital)

I have a 2013 Leaf, and the AM radio works fine. Same with my old 2005
Prius.  I use the AM radio on a daily basis during my commute to work.
Not sure if it is perhaps an issue with certain radio suppliers/car
manufacturers?

Tom Keenan

> On Nov 9, 2018, at 10:09 AM, Lee Hart via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> paul dove via EV wrote:
>> Is the problem radiated emissions or conducted emissions.... anyone
know?
>
> If radiated, it will cause problems not only for your own car; but will
also wipe out AM in the car next to it!
>
> Our Prius has an AM radio, though it has a "tin ear" -- poor weak signal
reception. This has been a problem for me on long trips. FM stations fade
in and out as you drive, but especially at night, you can listen to the
same AM station for your entire drive.

>
> --
> Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
> reliable, straightforward, readily available, easy to use, and
> affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy.
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

_______________________________________________
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Re: AM radios dropped from plugins (RFI, EMI, +)> (go digital)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Tom Keenan wrote:

> I have a 2013 Leaf, and the AM radio works fine. Same with my old 2005
> Prius.  I use the AM radio on a daily basis during my commute to work.
> Not sure if it is perhaps an issue with certain radio suppliers/car
> manufacturers?

I suspect it has more to do with the cost savings of not including AM capability (probably perceived to be relatively unused and therefore easily eliminated without much outcry) than any real technical issue.

AM works fine in my wife's 2016 Leaf and in my conversion; there really doesn't seem to be any reason for it not to work in any plugin, unless one doesn't want it to work...

Cheers,

Roger.

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Re: AM radios dropped from plugins (RFI, EMI, +)> (go digital)

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Hmm, maybe cost savings of putting a grounded shield around the motor
and controller. For the AM radio, what could the cost be? $1.00?

Peri

------ Original Message ------
From: "Roger Stockton via EV" <[hidden email]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Roger Stockton" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 09-Nov-18 3:20:31 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] AM radios dropped from plugins (RFI, EMI, +)> (go
digital)

>Tom Keenan wrote:
>
>>I have a 2013 Leaf, and the AM radio works fine. Same with my old 2005
>>Prius.  I use the AM radio on a daily basis during my commute to work.
>>Not sure if it is perhaps an issue with certain radio suppliers/car
>>manufacturers?
>
>I suspect it has more to do with the cost savings of not including AM
>capability (probably perceived to be relatively unused and therefore
>easily eliminated without much outcry) than any real technical issue.
>
>AM works fine in my wife's 2016 Leaf and in my conversion; there really
>doesn't seem to be any reason for it not to work in any plugin, unless
>one doesn't want it to work...
>
>Cheers,
>
>Roger.
>
>_______________________________________________
>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

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Re: AM radios dropped from plugins (RFI, EMI, +)> (go digital)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Peri Hartman wrote:

> Hmm, maybe cost savings of putting a grounded shield around the motor
> and controller. For the AM radio, what could the cost be? $1.00?

Good point; perhaps the real cost savings isn't the radio itself, but that its absence allows them to cut corners (and cost) elsewhere on EMI measures?

That said, my conversion doesn't need shielded conductors or a shield around the controller in order for AM to be perfectly usable, so I'm not sure where they would cut costs such that they needed to eliminate AM capability to "hide" their cost saving measures?  Commercial EVs pretty much always have the controller in an aluminum enclosure, so it should be largely shielded for "free"; I doubt we'll see controllers in plastic boxes very soon ;^>

Cheers,

Roger.

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Re: AM radios dropped from plugins (RFI, EMI, +)> (go digital)

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Roger Stockton via EV wrote:
>> Hmm, maybe cost savings of putting a grounded shield around the motor
>> and controller. For the AM radio, what could the cost be? $1.00?
>
> Good point; perhaps the real cost savings isn't the radio itself, but that its absence allows them to cut corners (and cost) elsewhere on EMI measures?
>
> That said, my conversion doesn't need shielded conductors or a shield around the controller in order for AM to be perfectly usable, so I'm not sure where they would cut costs such that they needed to eliminate AM capability to "hide" their cost saving measures?  Commercial EVs pretty much always have the controller in an aluminum enclosure, so it should be largely shielded for "free"; I doubt we'll see controllers in plastic boxes very soon ;^>

That's been my experience as well. The AM radio in my LeCar EV
conversion works. It has a classic ADC series motor, Curtis 1231C
controller, and normal non-shielded wiring. There is some noise on weak
AM stations, but they still work.

Now, if the modern factory EVs are using much faster switching edges in
their controllers, there could be a lot more noise.

--
Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
reliable, straightforward, readily available, easy to use, and
affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy.
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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Re: AM radios dropped from plugins (RFI, EMI, +)> (go digital)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Hmm, that brings up a question.

Do automobiles (electric or otherwise) have to pass any FCC regulations
regarding RF emissions?

Al


On 11/9/2018 8:29 PM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

> Roger Stockton via EV wrote:
>>> Hmm, maybe cost savings of putting a grounded shield around the motor
>>> and controller. For the AM radio, what could the cost be? $1.00?
>>
>> Good point; perhaps the real cost savings isn't the radio itself, but
>> that its absence allows them to cut corners (and cost) elsewhere on
>> EMI measures?
>>
>> That said, my conversion doesn't need shielded conductors or a shield
>> around the controller in order for AM to be perfectly usable, so I'm
>> not sure where they would cut costs such that they needed to
>> eliminate AM capability to "hide" their cost saving measures? 
>> Commercial EVs pretty much always have the controller in an aluminum
>> enclosure, so it should be largely shielded for "free"; I doubt we'll
>> see controllers in plastic boxes very soon ;^>
>
> That's been my experience as well. The AM radio in my LeCar EV
> conversion works. It has a classic ADC series motor, Curtis 1231C
> controller, and normal non-shielded wiring. There is some noise on
> weak AM stations, but they still work.
>
> Now, if the modern factory EVs are using much faster switching edges
> in their controllers, there could be a lot more noise.
>

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Re: AM radios dropped from plugins (RFI, EMI, +)> (go digital)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Well conducted emissions seems easier to eliminate

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 9, 2018, at 12:09 PM, Lee Hart via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> paul dove via EV wrote:
>> Is the problem radiated emissions or conducted emissions.... anyone know?
>
> If radiated, it will cause problems not only for your own car; but will also wipe out AM in the car next to it!
>
> Our Prius has an AM radio, though it has a "tin ear" -- poor weak signal reception. This has been a problem for me on long trips. FM stations fade in and out as you drive, but especially at night, you can listen to the same AM station for your entire drive.
>
> --
> Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
> reliable, straightforward, readily available, easy to use, and
> affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy.
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

_______________________________________________
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Re: AM radios dropped from plugins (RFI, EMI, +)> (go digital)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
There is no "ground" in a vehicle, only "chassis". (Unless the vehicle
is on charge and connected to the grid.) The drivetrain and the AM radio
share the chassis "ground", which is likely the root of the problem.

The EMI comes from the controller PWM switching, goes into the chassis,
(and is radiated in general by the drive components,) and is received by
the AM radio.

The AM radio can be filtered, but that adds cost, is difficult, reduces
the sensitivity, and likely the sound fidelity of the AM radio. The
drive train can be designed to reduce the EMI in the specific frequency
region of AM, which adds significant cost, and is _/very/_ difficult.
You can locate the sensitive components of the AM radio away from the
drive train, which is a bit difficult and adds cost.

     Is the cost worth the improvement of the AM radio reception?   Most
folks don't care, and the added cost of clear sensitive AM reception is
not worth anything to them. Teslas answer is to "use streaming" instead
of the AM radio is probably the most sensible for most people.

     This problem is similar to acoustic noise in airplanes. It is quite
costly to reduce the cabin noise in airplanes, and it adds weight, which
reduces efficiency and reduces performance. In small airplanes,
helicopters, and military airplanes, everyone wears headphones (or ear
plugs). In commercial airplanes, the airplane itself is designed to
reduce the cabin noise. However, it is very expensive to solve noise the
problem at the source end. Much cheaper and lighter to solve the problem
at the relieving end.

     Do you _need_ an AM radio in your car? Probably not. You don't get
to your destination any quicker.

Bill D.




On 11/10/2018 1:03 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> Hmm, maybe cost savings of putting a grounded shield around the motor
> and controller. For the AM radio, what could the cost be? $1.00?
>
> Peri
>

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Re: AM radios dropped from plugins (RFI, EMI, +)> (go digital)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Customer: The “X” feature  in my car doesn’t work right.

Dealer: That’s okay. We think that it’s “better” to use something else.

That’s acceptable? Really?


- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Nov 10, 2018, at 10:43 AM, Bill Dube via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> There is no "ground" in a vehicle, only "chassis". (Unless the vehicle is on charge and connected to the grid.) The drivetrain and the AM radio share the chassis "ground", which is likely the root of the problem.
>
> The EMI comes from the controller PWM switching, goes into the chassis, (and is radiated in general by the drive components,) and is received by the AM radio.
>
> The AM radio can be filtered, but that adds cost, is difficult, reduces the sensitivity, and likely the sound fidelity of the AM radio. The drive train can be designed to reduce the EMI in the specific frequency region of AM, which adds significant cost, and is _/very/_ difficult. You can locate the sensitive components of the AM radio away from the drive train, which is a bit difficult and adds cost.
>
>     Is the cost worth the improvement of the AM radio reception?   Most folks don't care, and the added cost of clear sensitive AM reception is not worth anything to them. Teslas answer is to "use streaming" instead of the AM radio is probably the most sensible for most people.
>
>     This problem is similar to acoustic noise in airplanes. It is quite costly to reduce the cabin noise in airplanes, and it adds weight, which reduces efficiency and reduces performance. In small airplanes, helicopters, and military airplanes, everyone wears headphones (or ear plugs). In commercial airplanes, the airplane itself is designed to reduce the cabin noise. However, it is very expensive to solve noise the problem at the source end. Much cheaper and lighter to solve the problem at the relieving end.
>
>     Do you _need_ an AM radio in your car? Probably not. You don't get to your destination any quicker.
>
> Bill D.
>
>
>
>
>> On 11/10/2018 1:03 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>> Hmm, maybe cost savings of putting a grounded shield around the motor and controller. For the AM radio, what could the cost be? $1.00?
>>
>> Peri
>>
>
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>

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Re: AM radios dropped from plugins (RFI, EMI, +)> (go digital)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Fast switching power doesn't need a ground or a common return to generate
loud EMI and foul AM.  In my old testing lab I had used an old transistor
radio to locate noise that was fouling a turbine flowmeter output. The
problem lies with rapid rising and falling voltage - something that is
desired with some electronic switches that are inefficient during those
transitions. That inefficiency comes out as heat that accumulates in in
motors and degrades performance. We were using stepper motors that that had
voltage rise like 20 V/nanosecond.  They weren't large motors, but very
loud in the EM noise department. It was a trick to solve.

transistor radios are a forgotten tech.  They aren't to bad in a car, but
in the home a drill or mixer can cause a lot of disturbance.

On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 1:43 PM Bill Dube via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

> There is no "ground" in a vehicle, only "chassis". (Unless the vehicle
> is on charge and connected to the grid.) The drivetrain and the AM radio
> share the chassis "ground", which is likely the root of the problem.
>
> The EMI comes from the controller PWM switching, goes into the chassis,
> (and is radiated in general by the drive components,) and is received by
> the AM radio.
>
> The AM radio can be filtered, but that adds cost, is difficult, reduces
> the sensitivity, and likely the sound fidelity of the AM radio. The
> drive train can be designed to reduce the EMI in the specific frequency
> region of AM, which adds significant cost, and is _/very/_ difficult.
> You can locate the sensitive components of the AM radio away from the
> drive train, which is a bit difficult and adds cost.
>
>      Is the cost worth the improvement of the AM radio reception?   Most
> folks don't care, and the added cost of clear sensitive AM reception is
> not worth anything to them. Teslas answer is to "use streaming" instead
> of the AM radio is probably the most sensible for most people.
>
>      This problem is similar to acoustic noise in airplanes. It is quite
> costly to reduce the cabin noise in airplanes, and it adds weight, which
> reduces efficiency and reduces performance. In small airplanes,
> helicopters, and military airplanes, everyone wears headphones (or ear
> plugs). In commercial airplanes, the airplane itself is designed to
> reduce the cabin noise. However, it is very expensive to solve noise the
> problem at the source end. Much cheaper and lighter to solve the problem
> at the relieving end.
>
>      Do you _need_ an AM radio in your car? Probably not. You don't get
> to your destination any quicker.
>
> Bill D.
>
>
>
>
> On 11/10/2018 1:03 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> > Hmm, maybe cost savings of putting a grounded shield around the motor
> > and controller. For the AM radio, what could the cost be? $1.00?
> >
> > Peri
> >
>
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>

--
Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 901-2805 Cell and Text
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Tablet,
Google Phone and Text
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Re: AM radios dropped from plugins (RFI, EMI, +)> (go digital)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
"Do you _need_ an AM radio in your car?"

No.  But it was sure nice to have when we were heading north out of Weed
CA Route 97 on a dark December night not long ago.  The sign said to
tune your radio to some AM frequency for traffic conditions.  That saved
us a lot of time because the road was closed to all but four wheel
drive.  So we turned around and returned to Interstate 5 and went
through Portland, normally a much longer drive.  Cell phone coverage is
very poor along that route.  So the AM radio was the only thing that
informed us.

Cell phone coverage is getting better and I am seeing more apps that
provide current road conditions.  So I think that the "need" for AM
radio is decreasing.  But I was sure glad we had it on that trip.


Later,

Cliff Crabtree


On 11/10/18 10:43 AM, Bill Dube via EV wrote:

> There is no "ground" in a vehicle, only "chassis". (Unless the vehicle
> is on charge and connected to the grid.) The drivetrain and the AM
> radio share the chassis "ground", which is likely the root of the
> problem.
>
> The EMI comes from the controller PWM switching, goes into the
> chassis, (and is radiated in general by the drive components,) and is
> received by the AM radio.
>
> The AM radio can be filtered, but that adds cost, is difficult,
> reduces the sensitivity, and likely the sound fidelity of the AM
> radio. The drive train can be designed to reduce the EMI in the
> specific frequency region of AM, which adds significant cost, and is
> _/very/_ difficult. You can locate the sensitive components of the AM
> radio away from the drive train, which is a bit difficult and adds cost.
>
>     Is the cost worth the improvement of the AM radio reception? Most
> folks don't care, and the added cost of clear sensitive AM reception
> is not worth anything to them. Teslas answer is to "use streaming"
> instead of the AM radio is probably the most sensible for most people.
>
>     This problem is similar to acoustic noise in airplanes. It is
> quite costly to reduce the cabin noise in airplanes, and it adds
> weight, which reduces efficiency and reduces performance. In small
> airplanes, helicopters, and military airplanes, everyone wears
> headphones (or ear plugs). In commercial airplanes, the airplane
> itself is designed to reduce the cabin noise. However, it is very
> expensive to solve noise the problem at the source end. Much cheaper
> and lighter to solve the problem at the relieving end.
>
>     Do you _need_ an AM radio in your car? Probably not. You don't get
> to your destination any quicker.
>
> Bill D.
>
>
>
>
> On 11/10/2018 1:03 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>> Hmm, maybe cost savings of putting a grounded shield around the motor
>> and controller. For the AM radio, what could the cost be? $1.00?
>>
>> Peri
>>
>
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> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
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Re: AM radios dropped from plugins (RFI, EMI, +)> (go digital)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
> Customer: The “X” feature  in my car doesn’t work right.
> Dealer: That’s okay. We think that it’s “better” to use something else.
> That’s acceptable? Really?

Sure it is! Marketing will convince him. Look, we've been convincing
them to buy our ICEs for years! :-)

        The Manager and the Engineer -- by Lee Hart
(inspired by Lewis Carrol's The Walrus and the Carpenter)

The Manager and Engineer were counting up their score;
The Manager’s showed ninety-eight; the Engineer’s was more.
And both lay bunkered in a trap, and both stood up and swore.

I hate to see, said Engineer, such quantities of sand.
How they could miss its proper use I cannot understand.
Add water, lime, and pave it all; I think it would be grand.

The rules are wrong, said Manager. If I could sweep them clean,
I’m sure that I could make this hole in less than seventeen.
I doubt it, said the Engineer. Your slice is pretty mean.

The time has come, said Manager, to speak of many things;
Of ISOs, and TQMs, and where the market swings,
And how our budgets rise, yet fall, and whether time has wings.

Delight the customer, he said. It’s our new goal, you see.
That’s easy, said the Engineer. Ship better goods for free.
No, no, the Manager replied. You do not follow me.

Profit is our real goal, by management’s decree.
In that case, said the Engineer, I see your strategy.
To please them with our same old junk, call Marketing, not me.

Low product cost, said Manager. And build them quick, you see?
And customers demand, of course, the highest quality.
Can’t do them all, said Engineer. Pick two, then call on me.

CPDM, said Manager, sets rules for every game.
I fear this rule, said Engineer, is innovation’s bane.
how differs golf from basketball if rules are made the same?

Continuous improvement will make our products shine.
This mitigates quite strong against a major new design.
You cannot cross a river going one step at a time.

With PS6 I’ve graphed your way, the Manager observed.
Before design? said Engineer. I’d never have the nerve.
I learned to get my data first, and then to plot the curve.

Re-engineer the company! Our course must be reversed!
That makes me ask, said Engineer. Who engineered it first?
Re-engineer could mean replace; I fear you mean the worst.

(This is full of once-fashionable corporate buzz-words. Anyone who has
worked in large corporations will probably shudder with recognition
at each one).

ISO International Standards Organization
TQM Total Quality Management
CPDM Common Product Design Methodology (making Cola, Computers, or Cars
is all the same)
Continuous Improvement (no new products; just evolve old ones)
PS6 Microsoft's Project Scheduler (made pretty graphs out of nonsense)
Re-engineer the company (fire everone, and hire them back as temps or
contract workers)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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