AdvancedDC motor torque curves

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AdvancedDC motor torque curves

Dan Frederiksen-2
www.zev.dk/misc/torque-curves.gif
based on some old test data that I forget where I got. I think it's ADC
themselves that did it long ago

while their curves are quite similar the main difference between the
motors must be how much current they can safely take and that would
presumably be decided by the wire thickness used in each. finding that
data is probably going to be difficult. if anyone has it please let me know

Dan

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Re: AdvancedDC motor torque curves

Steve West-6
> finding that data is probably going to be difficult

This is precisely the question I have. Is there a repository of the
accumulated experience of the list members?

For any given motor:

a) what's the true voltage limit?
b) what's the current limit for 10s? 20s? 60s?

>From extrapolating Dan's curves it looks like 700A could force 300Nm out of
a Warp9. Is it true? If so, how long till the windings melt? What's the max
RPM you can push that amount of current before it fireballs?

Steve W

> From: Dan Frederiksen <[hidden email]>
>
> www.zev.dk/misc/torque-curves.gif
> based on some old test data that I forget where I got. I think it's ADC
> themselves that did it long ago
>
> while their curves are quite similar the main difference between the
> motors must be how much current they can safely take and that would
> presumably be decided by the wire thickness used in each. finding that
> data is probably going to be difficult. if anyone has it please let me know
>
> Dan


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Re: AdvancedDC motor torque curves

Hi-Torque Electric

--- Stephen West <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > finding that data is probably going to be
> difficult
>
> This is precisely the question I have. Is there a
> repository of the
> accumulated experience of the list members?
>
> For any given motor:
>
> a) what's the true voltage limit?
> b) what's the current limit for 10s? 20s? 60s?

Hey Steven, all

There's a few compiled graphs such as the one linked,
but that's about it.  It looks like it's pretty
accurate from the data charts I have that I can
compare it to.  My info tops out at 80 ft. lbs. for
all but the Warp11 which tops out at 160 ft. lbs. but
here's what I show:
Motor      amps        ft.lbs.  
ADC8       500        77 to 80 (depending on
chart,lol)
Impulse9   500           83
Warp9      360           80
Warp11     500          160

As for current limit, and I'm not sure what you mean
by 10's,20's, 60's, all the motors listed above will
take a full punch by a Zilla (depending on
advancement) for short durations.

> >From extrapolating Dan's curves it looks like 700A
> could force 300Nm out of
> a Warp9. Is it true?

Like I say it looks correct at 222 ft.lbs. (hey all my
charts are in ft.lbs.lol) and we know that a 9 can
make that, specially if we use Waylands stat of 772
ft.lbs. for the Siamese8 (two 8's).

> If so, how long till the windings melt?

You know I'm guessing that if you threw 170 volts and
2000 amps at a 9" motor (in a reasonable sized
convertion), it could take it probably longer than
you'd be willing to hold the peddle down 8^o if you
were into playing "chicken" against your motor that
is.


> What's the max
> RPM you can push that amount of current before it
> fireballs?

Max RPM's are 7K for 8" motors and smaller, about 5K
to 5500 for the 9's and 11's with anything beyond that
as an at your own risk and is usally when you see me
smacking someone upside the head saying "What were you
thinking" 8^P  

FWIW I've had a motor how to and stuff on a list of to
do's but have just not had the energy to gather it all
up and write it all down as of yet 8^(

Anyway hope this helps.

Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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Re: AdvancedDC motor torque curves

Steve West-6
>> b) what's the current limit for 10s? 20s? 60s?

> I'm not sure what you mean by 10's,20's, 60's,

I mean 10 seconds, 20 seconds, 60 seconds.

> all the motors listed above will take a full punch by a Zilla (depending on
> advancement) for short durations.

My question is just: what constitutes a "short duration"? From what you're
saying, it's certainly long enough to get from 0 to 100 km/h.

Steve


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Re: AdvancedDC motor torque curves

rodhower
In reply to this post by Hi-Torque Electric
I think the most interesting curve was the ADC 6.7"
X91
www.zev.dk/misc/torque-curves.gif
It produced higher torque per amp than the ADC 9".
I would like to see your analysis on that curve.
It crapped out around 450Amps since I think the field
was saturated.
I'm looking forward to Jim's analysis on RPM for
various motor sizes and how they are improved with
upgrades like additional commutator wraps.
I just ran a small BLDC motor today that typically
runs at max 28,000 RPM's, but I cranked it up to
60,000 rpms to see where it would explode. After 5
minutes the magnets let loose and caused a locked
rotor (the control survived!).  I'm sure the explosion
occurred due to heating and the magnet could have
survived maybe 80,000 RPM's for short periods at lower
temps.  It would be interesting to see RPM versus
temperature for the bigger motors.  I took the Dodge
TEVan up to 8,000 RPM's several times and it did not
fail (this is a 9" sepex motor).  As temperatures go
up, parts come apart much easier.  Makes me wonder if
the drag racing guys can push their motors a little
bit harder.
--- Jim Husted <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> --- Stephen West <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > > finding that data is probably going to be
> > difficult
> >
> > This is precisely the question I have. Is there a
> > repository of the
> > accumulated experience of the list members?
> >
> > For any given motor:
> >
> > a) what's the true voltage limit?
> > b) what's the current limit for 10s? 20s? 60s?
>
> Hey Steven, all
>
> There's a few compiled graphs such as the one
> linked,
> but that's about it.  It looks like it's pretty
> accurate from the data charts I have that I can
> compare it to.  My info tops out at 80 ft. lbs. for
> all but the Warp11 which tops out at 160 ft. lbs.
> but
> here's what I show:
> Motor      amps        ft.lbs.  
> ADC8       500        77 to 80 (depending on
> chart,lol)
> Impulse9   500           83
> Warp9      360           80
> Warp11     500          160
>
> As for current limit, and I'm not sure what you mean
> by 10's,20's, 60's, all the motors listed above will
> take a full punch by a Zilla (depending on
> advancement) for short durations.
>
> > >From extrapolating Dan's curves it looks like
> 700A
> > could force 300Nm out of
> > a Warp9. Is it true?
>
> Like I say it looks correct at 222 ft.lbs. (hey all
> my
> charts are in ft.lbs.lol) and we know that a 9 can
> make that, specially if we use Waylands stat of 772
> ft.lbs. for the Siamese8 (two 8's).
>
> > If so, how long till the windings melt?
>
> You know I'm guessing that if you threw 170 volts
> and
> 2000 amps at a 9" motor (in a reasonable sized
> convertion), it could take it probably longer than
> you'd be willing to hold the peddle down 8^o if you
> were into playing "chicken" against your motor that
> is.
>
>
> > What's the max
> > RPM you can push that amount of current before it
> > fireballs?
>
> Max RPM's are 7K for 8" motors and smaller, about 5K
> to 5500 for the 9's and 11's with anything beyond
> that
> as an at your own risk and is usally when you see me
> smacking someone upside the head saying "What were
> you
> thinking" 8^P  
>
> FWIW I've had a motor how to and stuff on a list of
> to
> do's but have just not had the energy to gather it
> all
> up and write it all down as of yet 8^(
>
> Anyway hope this helps.
>
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
>
>
>      
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Looking for last minute shopping deals?  
> Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
>
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>
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>

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Re: AdvancedDC motor torque curves

Dan Frederiksen-2
Rod Hower wrote:
> I think the most interesting curve was the ADC 6.7"
> X91
> www.zev.dk/misc/torque-curves.gif
> It produced higher torque per amp than the ADC 9".
>  
yes but that's not difficult with thinner wires. thinner wires allows
more windings in the same space thus a stronger field for a given
current. the problem is it's thinner wires. it's tolerance for current
is then that much lower and it's curious that there isn't much better
data on the current taking capabilities.
the data for the graph was just 5 data points from an ADC test from the
early 90s and I didn't see it before I graphed it but the bend in the
curve might actually be the motor dying from heat. someone with motor
theory knowledge can say if that is possible otherwise.
 
> I just ran a small BLDC motor today that typically
> runs at max 28,000 RPM's, but I cranked it up to
> 60,000 rpms to see where it would explode. After 5
> minutes the magnets let loose and caused a locked
> rotor (the control survived!).
wow :) that's 1000 rotations per second. how big was it?
roughly speaking and gearing aside it's interesting that running a motor
at 10x the speed gives you the power of a motor 10x the size

> I took the Dodge
> TEVan up to 8,000 RPM's several times and it did not
> fail (this is a 9" sepex motor).
interesting. we need to know the limits of the available motors so
that's an interesting data point. all manufacturers should run their
product into the ground and show the data. as it is now it's too much
brinkmanship. take a wild guess if your motor will be destroyed on yout
next run..
seems like a bad way to do it

Dan

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Re: AdvancedDC motor torque curves

Dan Frederiksen-2
In reply to this post by Hi-Torque Electric
yeah, I guess you might know wire thickness in some motors Husted.

do you have wire guage data for some of the typical motors? if you do
please make a list and share them.
that should give us a good indication of what current we can expect them
to take and for how long.

thanks
Dan

Jim Husted wrote:

> Hey Steven, all
>
> There's a few compiled graphs such as the one linked,
> but that's about it.  It looks like it's pretty
> accurate from the data charts I have that I can
> compare it to.  My info tops out at 80 ft. lbs. for
> all but the Warp11 which tops out at 160 ft. lbs. but
> here's what I show:
> Motor      amps        ft.lbs.  
> ADC8       500        77 to 80 (depending on
> chart,lol)
> Impulse9   500           83
> Warp9      360           80
> Warp11     500          160
>  

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Re: AdvancedDC motor torque curves

EVDL Administrator
In reply to this post by Steve West-6
On 20 Dec 2007 at 13:20, Stephen West wrote:

> Is there a repository of the
> accumulated experience of the list members?

See the archives.  They're not exactly organized but it's all there.

Current : http://www.evdl.org/archive/

Old : http://www.mail-archive.com/ev@.../

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Anyone interested in 4 Soneil chargers?

David Hrivnak-2
In reply to this post by Hi-Torque Electric
In my hybrid conversion I tried to use Soneil 1214S chargers and we believe
the heat under the hood was too much for them.  I had 4 out of 6 fail but
due to some replacements I have 4 in working order.  I was seeing if anyone
in the group may want to buy them before I move them to e-bay.  I live in
Kingsport TN and can easily ship them in the USA.  They are 7A 12V chargers
and you can find details here.
http://www.soneil.com/Completesets/SPEC1214S(Rev01).042904.pdf  While I
cannot "guarantee" them if by chance one or more fail on you in a year I
will refund the money for them as there is a chance I may have stressed some
of the chargers.  Let me know off line [hidden email] if you may be
interested.  Thank you


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Re: Anyone interested in 4 Soneil chargers?

evpage
Hi,
 I saw your message and might be interested. What are you asking for them?
Rick Prentiss

-------------- Original message from "David Hrivnak" <[hidden email]>: --------------


> In my hybrid conversion I tried to use Soneil 1214S chargers and we believe
> the heat under the hood was too much for them. I had 4 out of 6 fail but
> due to some replacements I have 4 in working order. I was seeing if anyone
> in the group may want to buy them before I move them to e-bay. I live in
> Kingsport TN and can easily ship them in the USA. They are 7A 12V chargers
> and you can find details here.
> http://www.soneil.com/Completesets/SPEC1214S(Rev01).042904.pdf While I
> cannot "guarantee" them if by chance one or more fail on you in a year I
> will refund the money for them as there is a chance I may have stressed some
> of the chargers. Let me know off line [hidden email] if you may be
> interested. Thank you
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev 
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Re: Anyone interested in 4 Soneil chargers?

David Hrivnak-2
I had several people ask about price and I was hoping to see the 4 of them
for $200 shipping included or one off for $55 again with shipping.  I hope
you all have a very Merry Christmas and I hpe I too can have that EV grin on
January the 4th as that is when we attempt to install the motor.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of [hidden email]
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 10:01 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anyone interested in 4 Soneil chargers?

Hi,
 I saw your message and might be interested. What are you asking for them?
Rick Prentiss

-------------- Original message from "David Hrivnak"
<[hidden email]>: --------------


> In my hybrid conversion I tried to use Soneil 1214S chargers and we
believe
> the heat under the hood was too much for them. I had 4 out of 6 fail but
> due to some replacements I have 4 in working order. I was seeing if anyone

> in the group may want to buy them before I move them to e-bay. I live in
> Kingsport TN and can easily ship them in the USA. They are 7A 12V chargers

> and you can find details here.
> http://www.soneil.com/Completesets/SPEC1214S(Rev01).042904.pdf While I
> cannot "guarantee" them if by chance one or more fail on you in a year I
> will refund the money for them as there is a chance I may have stressed
some
> of the chargers. Let me know off line [hidden email] if you may be

> interested. Thank you
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev 
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