Anyone using Lithiumate BMS?

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Anyone using Lithiumate BMS?

Al-57
If anyone is using the Lithiumate BMS, I'd like to get your comments.
Is there a way to display and/or log cell data on a "carputer"?
Any problems with noise glitching up the system?

There are a lot of BMS's on the market. Most of them probably work fine when
things are "normal".
It's when things are *not* normal that I worry about failure modes, as in
fire.
I highly doubt most manufacturers know what will happen to their system if
either reverse voltage
or full pack voltage appears across their cell boards. I suppose I will have
to buy some and try it for myself.
If they are rendered inoperative that is fine, if they burst into flames not
so much.

Al

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Re: Anyone using Lithiumate BMS?

Lee Hart
On 4/15/2012 10:43 PM, Al wrote:
> There are a lot of BMS's on the market. Most of them probably work fine when
> things are "normal". It's when things are *not* normal that I worry about failure modes, as in
> fire.

Exactly! That is my worry as well. If you have 100 cells, and so have
100 of these individual BMS boards, then the chances of failure are 100x
times higher. They had better be mighty reliable!

And when they fail, I want to know if they fail "safe" (i.e. give a
warning when there is NOT a problem), or if they fail "dangerous" (i.e.
don't provide a warning when there really *is* a problem)!

--
*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
        -- Mahatma Gandhi
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at earthlink.net

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Re: Anyone using Lithiumate BMS?

Leslie-2
Need to comment on this one.

You can try and say there is 100x more "things" that can go wrong using
individul BMS modules on each of your 100 cells compared to just 1
"thing" that can go wrong with a single monitor that monitors the whole
pack - but that is way to oversimplified and a poor assumption tbh.

You're completely negating the fact that you have 100x MORE chance of
spoting a fault or low cell before a fault ocurrs in that low cell, and
100x more informed about the state of the whole battery pack.


Leslie





On 16/04/2012 3:53 PM, Lee Hart wrote:

> On 4/15/2012 10:43 PM, Al wrote:
>> There are a lot of BMS's on the market. Most of them probably work fine when
>> things are "normal". It's when things are *not* normal that I worry about failure modes, as in
>> fire.
> Exactly! That is my worry as well. If you have 100 cells, and so have
> 100 of these individual BMS boards, then the chances of failure are 100x
> times higher. They had better be mighty reliable!
>
> And when they fail, I want to know if they fail "safe" (i.e. give a
> warning when there is NOT a problem), or if they fail "dangerous" (i.e.
> don't provide a warning when there really *is* a problem)!
>

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Re: Anyone using Lithiumate BMS?

martinwinlow
In reply to this post by Al-57

On 16 Apr 2012, at 04:43, Al wrote:

> If anyone is using the Lithiumate BMS, I'd like to get your comments.
> Is there a way to display and/or log cell data on a "carputer"?
> Any problems with noise glitching up the system?
>
> There are a lot of BMS's on the market. Most of them probably work fine when
> things are "normal".
> It's when things are *not* normal that I worry about failure modes, as in
> fire.
> I highly doubt most manufacturers know what will happen to their system if
> either reverse voltage
> or full pack voltage appears across their cell boards. I suppose I will have
> to buy some and try it for myself.
> If they are rendered inoperative that is fine, if they burst into flames not
> so much.
>
> Al

Hi Al,

I gather they do 3 basic products; the Lithiumate Lite, the Pro and an OEM only system called the Lithiumotive.  The Lite has a USB connection and software to view the system (Windows?) but there is not much detail on their web site.  Eg how easy it is to use the USB data in another program etc.

The Pro does not seem to offer this facility, which seems odd.  The 'motive is not covered much at all and still appears to be 'in development'.

I know some people do not get on with Elithion but I think if I were in the market for an-off-the-shelf BMMS I would be looking in their direction.

I think from the safety perspective, doing what the big boys do (like in the aviation industry) and have several (certainly more than one), independent layers of protection is the way to go.  So have your BM/MS but have a completely separate heat and/or smoke detecting system that is GSM linked to your mobile (cell) phone, for example.  Fortunately this is fairly easy and cheap to do these days with the proliferation of GSM-based house alarms which, helpfully, all seem to have 12VDC power inputs.

I suppose there is no reason why the same system could not activate the EVSE lockout to disconnect the mains in the event of an 'aam' condition and ideally the traction pack too, I guess.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk



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Re: Anyone using Lithiumate BMS?

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by Leslie-2
On 4/16/2012 3:20 AM, Leslie wrote:
> You can try and say there is 100x more "things" that can go wrong using
> individual BMS modules on each of your 100 cells compared to just 1
> "thing" that can go wrong with a single monitor that monitors the whole
> pack - but that is way to oversimplified and a poor assumption tbh.
>
> You're completely negating the fact that you have 100x MORE chance of
> spotting a fault or low cell before a fault ocurrs in that low cell, and
> 100x more informed about the state of the whole battery pack.

I wasn't trying to say that a monitor board on every cell *works* worse
than one single monitor for total pack voltage. I was simply pointing
out that with 100 times the parts, the failure rate is 100 times higher.

If you only monitor total pack voltage, then the monitor circuit's
reliability (chance of its failure per X hours) is low. You have a
reliable way to measure total pack voltage. But there are many failures
that it will not detect (individual cell failures, for example). The
monitor doesn't fail; the CAR fails!

The way reliability analysis works is that you find out the failure rate
of each part (failures per million hours, etc.), and multiply by the
number of parts.

If the BMS is designed right, a failure (either of a cell, or the board
that is monitoring that cell) will produce a fault signal that STOPS you
from driving or charging. That means any failure on any board stops the
car. It's a "safe" failure; it prevents a fire or other disaster. But it
also stops you from driving.

I think it is better to make BMS boards that monitor as many cells as
possible, so you need FEWER boards. This reduces the chance of failures.
Ten 10-channel boards will probably have 1/10th the total number of
parts as 100 1-channel boards, and so would be 10 times more reliable.
The 10-channel board also has room for more elaborate safeguards against
failures.

In the extreme case, you would have one central BMS board with enough
channels for all your cells. The Badicheq, Zivan Smoother, and my own
Battery Balancer are examples of this approach. You'll find that the
parts count is much lower, and thus the basic reliability is much higher
with this approach.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in.
        -- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at earthlink.net

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Re: Anyone using Lithiumate BMS?

Elithion
In reply to this post by Al-57
Sorry for the wall of words, following, but I tried to address each point raised in this thread.

> Is there a way to display and/or log cell data on a "carputer"?

Off the shelf, the Lithiumate Pro can be used with the KK Display:
http://products.elithion.com/6DS0020P.php
and the iPhone / iPad
http://lithiumate.elithion.com/php/install_serialcomm.php#iPhone_/_iPad

Off the shelf, the Lithiumate Lite comes with a Windows GUI interface:
http://lite.elithion.com/application_.php

A few customers have developed their own user interface, receiving data using the facilities included in the Lithiumate BMS:
http://lithiumate.elithion.com/php/rs232_specs.php#RS232_dump

> If anyone is using the Lithiumate BMS...

By the way, there are about 950 Lithiumate BMSs in service today.

> Any problems with noise glitching up the system?

All distributed BMSs and all digital BMSs are inherently more susceptible to noise than non-distributed or analog BMSs. However, the Lithiumate BMS (which is both digital and distributed) has been used successfully in conjunction with noisy motor drivers and chargers, even in fiberglass vehicles that offer no ground plane. Yes, there have been problematic installations, due to installers who didn't use the shielded cable (which Elithion provides with a kit) or had systems constructed haphazardly (such that a laptop computers would "blue-screen" from the intense electrical noise) or ran the communication through a connector that did not carry the shield through. But, in general, systems that are constructed properly, using good techniques and following instructions, have operated without any noise problems.

> There are a lot of BMS's on the market.

You can find them all here:
http://liionbms.com/php/bms_options.php
This is a selector that lets you select the proper BMS for your needs:
http://liionbms.com/php/bms-selector.php

> It's when things are *not* normal that I worry about failure modes, as in
fire.

There is a sure "fire" way to get into trouble: having a BMS, but not connecting it to the charger and the motor driver. Doing so prevents the BMS from doing its job: shutting down the charging and discharging to protect the battery, your property, and you personally.

> I highly doubt most manufacturers know what will happen to their system if
either reverse voltage or full pack voltage appears across their cell boards.

Oh, we do know: it kills electronics.
A BMS that is misconnected, or a mid battery connection that is opened, WILL destroy electronics (whether the BMS uses cell boards or a single centralized master). If that happens, with a centralized BMS you have to replace the entire BMS; with a master/slave BMS you have to replace the damaged module; with a distributed BMS you only have to replace the one damaged cell board.

The two most common ways that an installer kills BMS electronics are:
- By misconnecting the BMS (such as by connecting a cell board backwards, or swapping wires to a centralized BMS): smoke
- By not *completely* disconnecting the battery from ANY load (including a charger); if you don't, that last connection sees the full pack voltage, and you're completing a circuit through the BMS: smoke

> if they burst into flames not so much.

BMSs don't bursts into flames. Their balance resistors generate just a miniscule amount of power (on the order of 1 / W per cell) and don't start fires, as some fear.
What can burst into flames is:
- A Li-ion cell that is overcharged because the BMS is not wired to shut off the charger (that's what happened in the LincVolt)
- Regardless of BMS and regardless of Li-ion: a poor power connection results is arcing, which ignites nearby flammable materials.

> And when they fail, I want to know if they fail "safe"

The Lithiumate does: should any cell board fail, it interrupts communications for its bank, and the Master shuts down the system due to a communications fault.

>  The Lite has a USB connection and software to view the system (Windows?) but there is not much detail on their web site

Yes, Windows.
I know, there is SO much info in Elithion's Lithiumate manuals, that I times it's hard to find what you're looking for. Elithion offers free tech support to all: please take advantage of it, to find the info you're looking for.
Here is the info I believe you're asking about:
http://lite.elithion.com/application_.php
http://lithiumate.elithion.com/php/rs232_specs.php#RS232_dump
Through the USB port, using the DUMP interface, you can get 54 general data items, plus cell voltage, temperature and resistance for each cell.

> I know some people do not get on with Elithion

Never mind that: I know who you mean, and he's changed his views a lot in the last year. We're all cool now. He just likes to tease me once in a while, and I don't mind.

>  independent layers of protection is the way to go.

Yes. The Elithion Lithiumotive has 2 BMS in one: a digital BMS and an analog fault protector. Having said that, it would be even better to have two physically separate BMSs, without any shared connections.

Davide
Davide Andrea
Elithion
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Re: Reliability of distributed vs non-distributed BMSs

Elithion
In reply to this post by Lee Hart
> If you have 100 cells, and so have
100 of these individual BMS boards, then the chances of failure are 100x
times higher.

Lee, you of all people know perfectly well that 100 transistors in 100 locations throughout the battery are no less reliable than 100 transistors all in a single box.

> Ten 10-channel boards will probably have 1/10th the total number of
parts as 100 1-channel boards,

Actually, typically not.

For example, a BMS based on the Linear Tech LTC6802 requires multiple external protection components per cell. The total number of protection components in such a BMS (for 12 cells) is actually higher than the number of protection  components in 12 cell boards. (I know, because I developed both.)

For better example, the MiniBMS has exactly the same components, whether you buy the distributed version or the centralized version. Just because the centralized version has all the components on a single board doesn't make it any more reliable.

Yes, there are definite advantages to a centralized BMS such as yours or Orion BMS. but reliability is not one of them.

Davide
Davide Andrea
Elithion
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Re: Anyone using Lithiumate BMS?

Willie2
In reply to this post by Elithion
On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 08:48:44AM -0700, Elithion wrote:
> I know, there is SO much info in Elithion's Lithiumate manuals, that I times
> it's hard to find what you're looking for. Elithion offers free tech support
> to all: please take advantage of it, to find the info you're looking for.

A change of policy?

I vividly recall buying a Elithion BMS through EVComponents and then
being told I would have to pay $500 (or $1000, or some very large
fraction of the cost of the BMS) to get even the most basic of
questions answered.  I was so disgusted, I put it on the self and
resolved not to use it.  It is still laying around somewhere; that is
one out of your 950 that is not in service.

--
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  27 days  6 hours 43 minutes

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Re: Anyone using Lithiumate BMS?

EVDL Administrator
In reply to this post by Lee Hart
On 16 Apr 2012 at 10:30, Lee Hart wrote:

> That means any failure on any board stops the car. It's a "safe"
> failure; it prevents a fire or other disaster. But it also stops you
> from driving.

Exactly.  The problem with this is that NHTSA won't see that as a safe
failure.  They'll say that the car could stop on a railroad track or in the
middle of an intersection - and they're right.  Safe failure in a microwave
oven or furnace can be carried out by simply shutting the device down.  In a
vehicle ... maybe not.

Seems to me that in the event of a failure, a vehicle system would need to
evaluate the situation.  How imminent is fire or overheating?  Can I safely
cut back motive power now?  Is it worth risking fire on the chance that the
car is in a hazardous situation at this moment?  

This is far from impractical, as airbag control systems make these decisions
already, but it is not trivial.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: Anyone using Lithiumate BMS?

lithiumstart
In reply to this post by Al-57
Hi Al,

I have deployed many elithion systems, (as well as other BMS systems) and have never had any major problems. I have also helped others who are having problems, and have seen a lot of what can go wrong. The elithion boards are in my opinion very reliable when used correctly. The whole point of a BMS is to keep cell voltages within reasonable ranges, which protects the boards from reverse or over voltage situations. Almost all of the elithion problems that I have seen are due to poor workmanship on the installers part. A while back, it was required to do a lot of soldering with an installation, and this gave some people trouble who had glue gun soldering techniques. Now the kits for prismatic cells have connectors, so this issue is mostly gone.
Making small connectors with mechanically and electrically good crimps has also been a challenge in some cases.

I think I can safely say, that on average, the most unreliable part of an elithion system is the installation, so if you are worried about reliability, I suggest you focus on doing a well planned and executed installation with the right tools, techniques, BMS settings, and ways for the BMS to stop loads and chargers.

I have seen a lot of failed cell boards due to reverse voltage, over voltage, sparks, etc. I can't definitively say that I have ever seen a bad board that I know wasn't caused by installation abuse. I have suspected a few, but at the end of the day, finding the bad one is easy with the help of the blinking LED light on each board, and I really like that I can fix a problem so easily and cheaply.
I recently blew up a centralized LTC based BMS, and fixing it required SMT soldering skills and an oscilloscope. I haven't ever had to use more than basic hand tools to fix an elithion system.

As far as fires go, the cell boards are so small, with such small wires and traces, that I don't think you can get enough power flowing even with a failed component to create much of a problem. Don't insulate you battery box with tinder, and set up your system so that if a board does go bad, your charger and load are shut down.

Cheers,

Thomas

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Re: Anyone using Lithiumate BMS?

corbin dunn
In reply to this post by Al-57

On Apr 15, 2012, at 8:43 PM, Al <[hidden email]> wrote:

> If anyone is using the Lithiumate BMS, I'd like to get your comments.

Hi Al,
I've been using it for ~1.35 years. It works quite well. I sometimes get warnings due to cell voltage droppings, but that has been due to my particular settings I used on the BMS to alert me when the cell voltage sags. I also sometimes get a bank communication fault; this seems to be due to me not securing the wires down well enough from the cells, and I have since taped them up a bit and that stopped that problem.

> Is there a way to display and/or log cell data on a "carputer"?

I use a WiSnap and look at the data on my iPhone:
http://www.corbinstreehouse.com/blog/2011/05/wisnap-elithion-bms/

It can also easily log data to a serial port.

> Any problems with noise glitching up the system?

None in my system with the BMS. Using the recommended cabling has worked fine.

I do have a problem with noise for my bluetooth mic; people can't hear me talk due to too much noise if I am accelerating and talking at the same time.

corbin

>
> There are a lot of BMS's on the market. Most of them probably work fine when
> things are "normal".
> It's when things are *not* normal that I worry about failure modes, as in
> fire.
> I highly doubt most manufacturers know what will happen to their system if
> either reverse voltage
> or full pack voltage appears across their cell boards. I suppose I will have
> to buy some and try it for myself.
> If they are rendered inoperative that is fine, if they burst into flames not
> so much.
>
> Al
>
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Re: Anyone using Lithiumate BMS?

martinwinlow
In reply to this post by Elithion
Davide,

Thank you for (all) that.

I have just one suggestion to improve your already thorough web pages for the Elithion BMS'.  Can you include a consistant (ie the same on all the different pages) method of finding and moving to all the pages - like a 'tree menu' system, if you know what I mean?  That way when you are reading a page and it refers to something of interest on a different page, there is an easy way of hopping to it.

Also, what is happening with the Lithiumotive - which I notice you did not mention in your reply?

Glad to hear you have patched things up with you-know-who!

Regards, Martin.


On 16 Apr 2012, at 16:48, Elithion wrote:

> Sorry for the wall of words, following, but I tried to address each point
> raised in this thread.
>
>> Is there a way to display and/or log cell data on a "carputer"?
>
> Off the shelf, the Lithiumate Pro can be used with the KK Display:
> http://products.elithion.com/6DS0020P.php
> and the iPhone / iPad
> http://lithiumate.elithion.com/php/install_serialcomm.php#iPhone_/_iPad
>
> Off the shelf, the Lithiumate Lite comes with a Windows GUI interface:
> http://lite.elithion.com/application_.php
>
> A few customers have developed their own user interface, receiving data
> using the facilities included in the Lithiumate BMS:
> http://lithiumate.elithion.com/php/rs232_specs.php#RS232_dump
>
>> If anyone is using the Lithiumate BMS...
>
> By the way, there are about 950 Lithiumate BMSs in service today.
>
>> Any problems with noise glitching up the system?
>
> All distributed BMSs and all digital BMSs are inherently more susceptible to
> noise than non-distributed or analog BMSs. However, the Lithiumate BMS
> (which is both digital and distributed) has been used successfully in
> conjunction with noisy motor drivers and chargers, even in fiberglass
> vehicles that offer no ground plane. Yes, there have been problematic
> installations, due to installers who didn't use the shielded cable (which
> Elithion provides with a kit) or had systems constructed haphazardly (such
> that a laptop computers would "blue-screen" from the intense electrical
> noise) or ran the communication through a connector that did not carry the
> shield through. But, in general, systems that are constructed properly,
> using good techniques and following instructions, have operated without any
> noise problems.
>
>> There are a lot of BMS's on the market.
>
> You can find them all here:
> http://liionbms.com/php/bms_options.php
> This is a selector that lets you select the proper BMS for your needs:
> http://liionbms.com/php/bms-selector.php
>
>> It's when things are *not* normal that I worry about failure modes, as in
> fire.
>
> There is a sure "fire" way to get into trouble: having a BMS, but not
> connecting it to the charger and the motor driver. Doing so prevents the BMS
> from doing its job: shutting down the charging and discharging to protect
> the battery, your property, and you personally.
>
>> I highly doubt most manufacturers know what will happen to their system if
> either reverse voltage or full pack voltage appears across their cell
> boards.
>
> Oh, we do know: it kills electronics.
> A BMS that is misconnected, or a mid battery connection that is opened, WILL
> destroy electronics (whether the BMS uses cell boards or a single
> centralized master). If that happens, with a centralized BMS you have to
> replace the entire BMS; with a master/slave BMS you have to replace the
> damaged module; with a distributed BMS you only have to replace the one
> damaged cell board.
>
> The two most common ways that an installer kills BMS electronics are:
> - By misconnecting the BMS (such as by connecting a cell board backwards, or
> swapping wires to a centralized BMS): smoke
> - By not *completely* disconnecting the battery from ANY load (including a
> charger); if you don't, that last connection sees the full pack voltage, and
> you're completing a circuit through the BMS: smoke
>
>> if they burst into flames not so much.
>
> BMSs don't bursts into flames. Their balance resistors generate just a
> miniscule amount of power (on the order of 1 / W per cell) and don't start
> fires, as some fear.
> What can burst into flames is:
> - A Li-ion cell that is overcharged because the BMS is not wired to shut off
> the charger (that's what happened in the LincVolt)
> - Regardless of BMS and regardless of Li-ion: a poor power connection
> results is arcing, which ignites nearby flammable materials.
>
>> And when they fail, I want to know if they fail "safe"
>
> The Lithiumate does: should any cell board fail, it interrupts
> communications for its bank, and the Master shuts down the system due to a
> communications fault.
>
>> The Lite has a USB connection and software to view the system (Windows?)
>> but there is not much detail on their web site
>
> Yes, Windows.
> I know, there is SO much info in Elithion's Lithiumate manuals, that I times
> it's hard to find what you're looking for. Elithion offers free tech support
> to all: please take advantage of it, to find the info you're looking for.
> Here is the info I believe you're asking about:
> http://lite.elithion.com/application_.php
> http://lithiumate.elithion.com/php/rs232_specs.php#RS232_dump
> Through the USB port, using the DUMP interface, you can get 54 general data
> items, plus cell voltage, temperature and resistance for each cell.
>
>> I know some people do not get on with Elithion
>
> Never mind that: I know who you mean, and he's changed his views a lot in
> the last year. We're all cool now. He just likes to tease me once in a
> while, and I don't mind.
>
>> independent layers of protection is the way to go.
>
> Yes. The Elithion Lithiumotive has 2 BMS in one: a digital BMS and an analog
> fault protector. Having said that, it would be even better to have two
> physically separate BMSs, without any shared connections.
>
> Davide
>
>
> -----
> Davide Andrea
> Elithion
> --




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Re: Anyone using Lithiumate BMS?

martinwinlow
In reply to this post by Willie2

On 16 Apr 2012, at 17:54, Willie McKemie wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 08:48:44AM -0700, Elithion wrote:
>> I know, there is SO much info in Elithion's Lithiumate manuals, that I times
>> it's hard to find what you're looking for. Elithion offers free tech support
>> to all: please take advantage of it, to find the info you're looking for.
>
> A change of policy?
>
> I vividly recall buying a Elithion BMS through EVComponents and then
> being told I would have to pay $500 (or $1000, or some very large
> fraction of the cost of the BMS) to get even the most basic of
> questions answered.  I was so disgusted, I put it on the self and
> resolved not to use it.  It is still laying around somewhere; that is
> one out of your 950 that is not in service.
>
> --
> Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!

Well if you're not using it… perhaps you would like to sell it?  Which one is it?

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk



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Re: Anyone using Lithiumate BMS?

martinwinlow
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator

On 16 Apr 2012, at 17:57, EVDL Administrator wrote:

> On 16 Apr 2012 at 10:30, Lee Hart wrote:
>
>> That means any failure on any board stops the car. It's a "safe"
>> failure; it prevents a fire or other disaster. But it also stops you
>> from driving.
>
> Exactly.  The problem with this is that NHTSA won't see that as a safe
> failure.  They'll say that the car could stop on a railroad track or in the
> middle of an intersection - and they're right.  Safe failure in a microwave
> oven or furnace can be carried out by simply shutting the device down.  In a
> vehicle ... maybe not.
>
> Seems to me that in the event of a failure, a vehicle system would need to
> evaluate the situation.  How imminent is fire or overheating?  Can I safely
> cut back motive power now?  Is it worth risking fire on the chance that the
> car is in a hazardous situation at this moment?  
>
> This is far from impractical, as airbag control systems make these decisions
> already, but it is not trivial.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>

You could level the same argument at any fuel powered vehicle on the roads today - if the driver is daft enough, it could just run out of fuel in the same circumstances.  Sure, if it were a manual gearbox then I'd consider using the starter motor in first gear to move out of danger but if your stupid enough to get yourself in such a pickle in the first place you probably won't think of that!

But… I'd still like to hear Davide's reply to that one…

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk



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Re: Anyone using Lithiumate BMS?

Willie2
In reply to this post by martinwinlow
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 10:31:57AM +0100, Martin WINLOW wrote:

> Well if you're not using it? perhaps you would like to sell it?  Which one is it?

Offers solicited.

It is for 45 cells.  I think he calls it "Lithimate".  About three
years old; maybe four.  Three banks.  As is, but un-used and un-tested.  
Apparently, you can now get support.

Oh!  I bought it for 260ah cells.  At one time, I looking into trying
to get cell modules for 160ah cells and the cost was higher than for a
new system.  I don't remember if it is feasible to adapt the modules to
smaller cells.  As is, it will work only on 260ah and probably 200ah
cells.

--
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  28 days 45 min minutes

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Re: Anyone using Lithiumate BMS?

Willie2
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 05:59:56AM -0500, Willie McKemie wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 10:31:57AM +0100, Martin WINLOW wrote:
>
> > Well if you're not using it? perhaps you would like to sell it?  Which one is it?
>
> Offers solicited.
>
> It is for 45 cells.  I think he calls it "Lithimate".  About three
> years old; maybe four.  Three banks.  As is, but un-used and un-tested.  
> Apparently, you can now get support.
>
> Oh!  I bought it for 260ah cells.  At one time, I looking into trying
....................................................LOOKED
> to get cell modules for 160ah cells and the cost was higher than for a
> new system.  I don't remember if it is feasible to adapt the modules to
> smaller cells.  As is, it will work only on 260ah and probably 200ah
> cells.

Man, I guess age is catching up with me.  I make these kind of errors
ALL the time!

--
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  28 days  1 hours 45 minutes

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Re: Anyone using Lithiumate BMS?

corbin dunn
In reply to this post by corbin dunn

On Apr 16, 2012, at 1:11 PM, Martijn Hendriks <[hidden email]> wrote:

>>
>> Hi Al,
>> I've been using it for ~1.35 years. It works quite well. I sometimes get warnings due to cell voltage droppings, but that has been due to my particular settings I used on the BMS to alert me when the cell voltage sags. I also sometimes get a bank communication fault; this seems to be due to me not securing the wires down well enough from the cells, and I have since taped them up a bit and that stopped that problem.
>
> Hi Corbin, can you explain a bit more what was wrong with your wires? Were the communication wires too close to the cell boards or was the orange wire not routed along the current path of the battery? Or something else?
> Thanks,
> //Martijn

I think it was something else. I had my gray wires coming from each cell board hanging loose, and would move slightly and get jostled when riding on bumpy roads (I live on quite bumpy roads). This would briefly cause a fault to occur when the connection was bad. I could easily reset it (either with a computer or just a power cycle of the car), and my "fix" was to just tape the wires down a bit so they don't move at all.

corbin


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Re: Anyone using Lithiumate BMS?

Elithion
In reply to this post by Willie2
Willie McKemie-2 wrote
I vividly recall buying a Elithion BMS through EVComponents and then
being told I would have to pay $500 (or $1000, or some very large
fraction of the cost of the BMS) to get even the most basic of
questions answered.
Sorry, but I don't remember the conversation that you remember so vividly; I believe what may have happened is that I mentioned to you how much less we were making for a system we sold through EV Components (compared to a system sold directly), and that may be the figure that stuck in your mind. If so, I am sorry for not being clear.

EV Components bought Lithiumate BMSs at a highly discounted price, by agreeing to provide tech support to its client; the idea was that its clients would get free tech support from EV Components (not Elithion). However, we discovered that clients of resellers did not get satisfactory support from them.

So, since the demise of EV Components, Elithion no longer makes such deals to resellers; instead, it offers free, direct, technician-level support to all, regardless of where and when the system was bought. Elithion does offer paid, phone based, engineering-level support, but it starts at $ 50 (not $ 500, not $ 1000). But, again, technician-level support is free, as is engineering-level support other than by phone.

On the same principle, Elithion also introduced the Lithiumate Lite at such a low price as to make a digital BMS affordable to all EV enthusiasts. Between Clean Power Auto's MinBMS (simple, analog) and Elithion's Lithiumate Lite (sophisticated, digital), EV enthusiasts now have two effective yet low price BMS solutions for their Li-ion battery packs.

Is there a way we can get you motivated to install your Lithiumate BMS? You have all you need. Our support guys can upgrade your software to the latest level, and guide you through the whole process.
Davide Andrea
Elithion
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Re: Anyone using Lithiumate BMS?

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator
On 4/16/2012 11:57 AM, EVDL Administrator wrote:
> The problem with this is that NHTSA won't see that as a safe
> failure.  They'll say that the car could stop on a railroad track or in the
> middle of an intersection - and they're right.  Safe failure in a microwave
> oven or furnace can be carried out by simply shutting the device down.  In a
> vehicle ... maybe not.

I would think (would *hope*) that the designer builds the system so it
doesn't quit totally without warning, but instead has a long slow
build-up before a complete shutdown. Vehicle keeps getting slower and
slower, more insistent and alarms, etc.

--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
        -- Antoine de Saint Exupéry
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at earthlink.net

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Multi-level alarm (was: Anyone using Lithiumate BMS?)

Bill Dube
At 04:44 PM 4/17/2012, you wrote:

>On 4/16/2012 11:57 AM, EVDL Administrator wrote:
> > The problem with this is that NHTSA won't see that as a safe
> > failure.  They'll say that the car could stop on a railroad track or in the
> > middle of an intersection - and they're right.  Safe failure in a microwave
> > oven or furnace can be carried out by simply shutting the device
> down.  In a
> > vehicle ... maybe not.
>
>I would think (would *hope*) that the designer builds the system so it
>doesn't quit totally without warning, but instead has a long slow
>build-up before a complete shutdown. Vehicle keeps getting slower and
>slower, more insistent and alarms, etc.

         I could easily be mistaken, but only the OEM EVs seem to
have multiple levels of "alarm" coming from the BMS. The BMS
available separately for application by experimenters seems to only
have a single "yes/no" output. They signal to shut down the vehicle
(or the charging,) or they signal everything is OK. Nothing in
between. At least this is is true for the systems that I am aware of.

         It greatly increases complexity, and cost, to add an
intermediate level of warning ("trouble".) OEM EV manufacturers
realize that they cannot simply shut off the vehicle if there is
"trouble", but must warn well in advance of vehicle shut-down, and
can only shut off the vehicle if there are immediate life-threatening
reasons. Thus, for liability reasons there _must_ be intermediate
levels of alarm before shut-down. Conversely, a manufacturer of a BMS
marketing to experimental EV customers wants their system to shut
down the EV at the slightest hint of trouble. The only motivation is
to protect the battery pack from damage.

         There will only be a "trouble" alarm/indicator on a BMS if
the customer demands it and is willing to pay extra to get it. So
far, that is not the case for the EV home-builder market.

         Bill D.

         

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