Available AC drive systems?

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Available AC drive systems?

Collin Kidder
I have used an Azure Dynamics set up in the past (DMOC445 with AC-24 motor.)
However, recently they decided to quit carrying a pedal pot version of their
controller and so no one seems to stock their equipment any longer. Current
DMOC controllers must be canbus controlled. That's not a problem at all for
me.

I am trying to get equipment out of my local AD service dealer. I don't know
yet whether they are willing or able to get me AD parts. AD seem to be a
HUGE pain to deal with and refuse to sell to anybody it seems. I'd have to
give them an "F" for sales. Hopefully their dealers are better and/or
they'll sell parts to their dealers knowing the parts aren't destined for a
commercial truck.That said, support was pretty good. AD has always answered
my technical questions promptly.

So, does anyone have an inside line for getting AD equipment? Alternatively,
what other AC systems would be recommended? I see that Davide has a list of
motor controllers for both DC and AC but I don't know a lot about some of
the AC systems so recommendations would be really great.
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Re: Available AC drive systems?

EVDL Administrator
Metric Mind offers Brusa and MES AC drives.  They're supposed to be pretty
good stuff, but they're not cheap.  

http://www.metricmind.com/

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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Re: Available AC drive systems?

Collin Kidder
Yes, MM is not known to be cheap. But it seems as if a reasonable setup can
be gotten for around $12k (motor and controller). That's not really so
terrible. An Azure Dynamics AC55 and DMOC445 controller can be gotten for
around 7-8k total though. (That is, if you can find someone to sell you
one.)

However, I had a price quote for a different system (which shall remain
nameless) come in at 21k. I didn't think it was all that special or super
high powered (240Nm peak.) It was 3x the price of an AC55 setup! (Which,
btw, is 280Nm peak torque) For 35k I can purchase an entire Nissan Leaf. I'm
really shocked by the sort of astronomical prices some companies want for
their products. Does anyone really spend $21k on a 45kW motor and
controller? One still needs batteries, a charger, and whole bunch of other
parts. At that rate the parts alone would cost way more than buying a prius,
volt, or leaf. Why bother at that point?

I'll keep MM in mind. I know they are a reputable company.

On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 1:05 PM, EVDL Administrator <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Metric Mind offers Brusa and MES AC drives.  They're supposed to be pretty
> good stuff, but they're not cheap.
>
> http://www.metricmind.com/
>
> David Roden
> EVDL Administrator
> http://www.evdl.org/
>
>
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Re: Available AC drive systems?

AMPhibian
In reply to this post by Collin Kidder
HPEVS, formerly HPGC, has a line of AC motors using the Curtis 1238 controllers.  Voltage limited but an affordable choice for smaller vehicles.
http://hpevs.com/
Collin Kidder wrote
 
  Alternatively,
what other AC systems would be recommended?  
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Re: Available AC drive systems?

EVDL Administrator
In reply to this post by Collin Kidder
On 17 Aug 2011 at 13:49, Collin Kidder wrote:

> I'm really shocked by the sort of astronomical prices some companies
> want for their products. Does anyone really spend $21k on a 45kW motor
> and controller?

This is a frequent topic here on the EVDL - understandably, since not many
of us are millionaires.

As far as I can tell, the reason for the high cost is that the products are
in very limited production, built by the hundreds or even dozens, rather
than the hundreds of thousands to millions of ICEs manufactured each year.  
This means that the engineering cost - which can be quite a bit - has to be
amortized over a fraction of the number of units.

And of course when you buy components in small quantities, the price is much
higher.

Finally, in some small companies building EV components in small quantities,
there's no production facilty per se.  In some cases, the engineers (often
the engineer, singular) are/is the assembly line.  US and European engineers
are usually paid quite a bit more per hour than, say, un-degreed 16 year old
Chinese or Malaysian kids from the countryside.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: Available AC drive systems?

tomw
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Collin Kidder
HPEVS, already mentioned is the lowest cost for a motor/controller up to about 55kW peak power (AC50/Curtis 1238R controller, 115V nominal pack), but even they are a bit more costly than a good quality equivalent power DC system.  Above that power DC systems are much less costly.  Next step would be systems from http://www.electro-vehicles.eu/, and similar systems from Metric Mind.  This company: http://www.evo-electric.com/products/electric-motors/, has some very nice motors. A diyer in Australia reportedly purchased one for 6k Pounds, and plans to  use it with the very nice Wave Sculptor controller (http://www.tritium.com.au/products/TRI74/index.html) for overall price of around $10k-$12k I would guess.  Price goes up from there.  In addition to small volume production already mentioned, selling to diyers (depending on the diyer) can entail far more support per unit than selling to commercial interests.  It is generally assumed that most companies would rather not deal with the headaches, so price their one unit sales very high to discourage such purchases and to compensate themselves well for the potential headaches that may follow such sales.
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Re: Available AC drive systems?

Collin Kidder
Thanks for the suggestions.

Evo Electric seems interesting. Their drive solution is a bit out of spec
for what I want to do but it's certainly a nice set up.

6k pounds is about $9900 US. The wave sculptor is about $6k Australian as
far as I remember. $AU is fairly close to $US. That brings the total cost up
to somewhere around $16,000. I wouldn't exactly call that cheap but the Evo
motors are very, very powerful.

I understand that companies don't want to deal with DIY people quite as
much. However, that doesn't perfectly fit my description. I represent a
company, we've already done an electric car that has gotten plenty of
attention, and we're shooting to do at least two more in the next year and
likely more after that. It's not GM levels of production but I'm not a
single guy working in his garage. I've had reasonable luck with a variety of
companies who are willing to sell to smaller manufacturers/conversion shops.
Other companies have platinum plated motors which come with a chauffeur and
a personal masseuse. I can't justify the cost of the really expensive units
as nice as it would be to relieve the tension in my sore back and have
someone drive me around.

I know a lot of the people who sell DC hardware so I don't want to say
anything bad about DC or push hobbyists away from DC. However, I'm really
personally partial to AC (for pretty much all of the reasons you'll see
brought up in AC vs DC fights) despite knowing so many DC vendors. ;) That
having been said, I'm likely to be doing some DC based conversions at some
point.

On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 9:57 AM, tomw <[hidden email]> wrote:

> HPEVS, already mentioned is the lowest cost for a motor/controller up to
> about 55kW peak power (AC50/Curtis 1238R controller, 115V nominal pack),
> but
> even they are a bit more costly than a good quality equivalent power DC
> system.  Above that power DC systems are much less costly.  Next step would
> be systems from http://www.electro-vehicles.eu/, and similar systems from
> Metric Mind.  This company:
> http://www.evo-electric.com/products/electric-motors/, has some very nice
> motors. A a diyer in Australia reportedly purchased one for 6k Pounds, and
> plans to  use it with the very nice Wave Sculptor (Australia) controller
> for
> overall price of around $10k-$12k I would guess.  Price goes up from there.
> In addition to small volume production already mentioned, selling to diyers
> (depending on the diyer) can entail far more support per unit than selling
> to commercial interests.  It is generally assumed that most companies would
> rather not deal with the headaches, so price their one unit sales very high
> to discourage such purchases and to compensate themselves well for the
> potential headaches that may follow such sales.
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Available-AC-drive-systems-tp3750180p3755236.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
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Re: Available AC drive systems?

tomw
I much prefer AC also but can readily see why people go with DC.  I'm using an HPEVS AC50/Curtis 1238-7510 controller in a small car (Suzuki Swift) which works well.  If that option hadn't been available I would have gone with DC for cost reasons.  I just can't see paying the high prices for more powerful AC systems (as much as I would like to do a conversion with an evo motor and Tritium controller), especially with the Leaf now becoming available (still not available in my location).
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Re: Available AC drive systems?

Collin Kidder
In reply to this post by Collin Kidder
I should correct myself here because I was spreading some wrong information.
My memory had failed me and I thought that Azure Dynamics would not sell
directly. It turns out that, at least in some cases, they will. Also, it is
likely that Ford dealerships which have Azure Dynamics certification will be
able to purchase hardware for people. I can provide an update on all of this
later if anyone is interested. Otherwise just let this be my apology for
impugning AD.

On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 10:50 AM, Collin Kidder <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I am trying to get equipment out of my local AD service dealer. I don't
> know yet whether they are willing or able to get me AD parts. AD seem to be
> a HUGE pain to deal with and refuse to sell to anybody it seems. I'd have to
> give them an "F" for sales. Hopefully their dealers are better and/or
> they'll sell parts to their dealers knowing the parts aren't destined for a
> commercial truck.That said, support was pretty good. AD has always answered
> my technical questions promptly.
>
>
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Re: Available AC drive systems?

EVDL Administrator
In reply to this post by Collin Kidder
On 19 Aug 2011 at 10:51, Collin Kidder wrote:

> Other companies have platinum plated motors which come with a chauffeur and a
> personal masseuse.

When I read this, I couldn't help thinking of Tom Corbin, the guy behind the
Sparrow, and his Bentley.  Apparently he wasn't interested in driving his
own EVs.  Explains a lot, eh?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: Available AC drive systems?

Ben Jarrett
In reply to this post by tomw



I'm curious which would perform better if you max'd out allowed voltage.

1. HPEV AC50/Curtis 1238-7510 
2. Warp 9/Soliton 1

I chose #2 because my jeep will end up around 3500 lbs and I was told the AC50 would
not be the best solution.  Also, with #2, I could go to a higher voltage which would help performance.

I would have loved to have gone AC, but there was no good economical solution for me.

Any comments?

-ben


________________________________
From: tomw <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Available AC drive systems?

I much prefer AC also but can readily see why people go with DC.  I'm using
an HPEVS AC50/Curtis 1238-7510 controller in a small car (Suzuki Swift)
which works well.  If that option hadn't been available I would have gone
with DC for cost reasons.  I just can't see paying the high prices for more
powerful AC systems (as much as I would like to do a conversion with an evo
motor and Tritium controller), especially with the Leaf now becoming
available (still not available in my location).

--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Available-AC-drive-systems-tp3750180p3755415.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: Available AC drive systems?

corbin dunn
On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 1:58 PM, Ben Jarrett <[hidden email]>wrote:

>
>
>
> I'm curious which would perform better if you max'd out allowed voltage.
>
> 1. HPEV AC50/Curtis 1238-7510
> 2. Warp 9/Soliton 1
>

The Warp9 and Soliton 1. You can run more amps (1000) and a higher voltage
(~170V motor volts I think is the max for a Warp9)

So, you can probably kill your Warp9 with the Soliton.

corbin



>
> I chose #2 because my jeep will end up around 3500 lbs and I was told the
> AC50 would
> not be the best solution.  Also, with #2, I could go to a higher voltage
> which would help performance.
>
> I would have loved to have gone AC, but there was no good economical
> solution for me.
>
> Any comments?
>
> -ben
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: tomw <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 10:07 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Available AC drive systems?
>
> I much prefer AC also but can readily see why people go with DC.  I'm using
> an HPEVS AC50/Curtis 1238-7510 controller in a small car (Suzuki Swift)
> which works well.  If that option hadn't been available I would have gone
> with DC for cost reasons.  I just can't see paying the high prices for more
> powerful AC systems (as much as I would like to do a conversion with an evo
> motor and Tritium controller), especially with the Leaf now becoming
> available (still not available in my location).
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Available-AC-drive-systems-tp3750180p3755415.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Available AC drive systems?

Gary Krysztopik-2
In reply to this post by Ben Jarrett
I ordered a 40kW nominal, 80 kW peak BLDC drive from China and it just
came in.  I think it's taking a detour to a dyno via the Revolt guys,
they are making the clutch adapter.  It may still be too small for 3500
lbs but we'll see.  It's going in a restored '57 bug that will be under
2500 lbs with 96 CALB 100Ah cells.

As far as the two choices below, I'd guess that the AC50 will be slow
and the Warp/Soliton will be fine.

Gary Krysztopik
ZWheelz, LLC - www.ZWheelz.com
Alamo City Electric Auto Association - www.aceaa.org
blog - http://voices.mysanantonio.com/drive_electric_san_antonio/
San Antonio, TX


On 8/19/2011 3:58 PM, Ben Jarrett wrote:

>
>
> I'm curious which would perform better if you max'd out allowed voltage.
>
> 1. HPEV AC50/Curtis 1238-7510
> 2. Warp 9/Soliton 1
>
> I chose #2 because my jeep will end up around 3500 lbs and I was told the AC50 would
> not be the best solution.  Also, with #2, I could go to a higher voltage which would help performance.
>
> I would have loved to have gone AC, but there was no good economical solution for me.
>
> Any comments?
>
> -ben
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: tomw<[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 10:07 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Available AC drive systems?
>
> I much prefer AC also but can readily see why people go with DC.  I'm using
> an HPEVS AC50/Curtis 1238-7510 controller in a small car (Suzuki Swift)
> which works well.  If that option hadn't been available I would have gone
> with DC for cost reasons.  I just can't see paying the high prices for more
> powerful AC systems (as much as I would like to do a conversion with an evo
> motor and Tritium controller), especially with the Leaf now becoming
> available (still not available in my location).
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Available-AC-drive-systems-tp3750180p3755415.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
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Re: Available AC drive systems?

Cor van de Water
Gary,
It depends on your definition of "small".
My 5000 lbs truck had only 50kW AC drive:
50kW Hughes motor coupled to a WaveDriver controller
that was limited to the same 250A motor Amps as
the original Dolphin controller of the US Electricars.

Still, with some anticipative driving it was very well
possible to keep up with traffic

The Prizms that have the same power are even zippier
than the original gas versions.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Gary Krysztopik
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 7:28 PM
To: Ben Jarrett; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Available AC drive systems?

I ordered a 40kW nominal, 80 kW peak BLDC drive from China and it just
came in.  I think it's taking a detour to a dyno via the Revolt guys,
they are making the clutch adapter.  It may still be too small for 3500
lbs but we'll see.  It's going in a restored '57 bug that will be under
2500 lbs with 96 CALB 100Ah cells.

As far as the two choices below, I'd guess that the AC50 will be slow
and the Warp/Soliton will be fine.

Gary Krysztopik
ZWheelz, LLC - www.ZWheelz.com
Alamo City Electric Auto Association - www.aceaa.org blog -
http://voices.mysanantonio.com/drive_electric_san_antonio/
San Antonio, TX


On 8/19/2011 3:58 PM, Ben Jarrett wrote:
>
>
> I'm curious which would perform better if you max'd out allowed
voltage.
>
> 1. HPEV AC50/Curtis 1238-7510
> 2. Warp 9/Soliton 1
>
> I chose #2 because my jeep will end up around 3500 lbs and I was told
> the AC50 would not be the best solution.  Also, with #2, I could go to
a higher voltage which would help performance.
>
> I would have loved to have gone AC, but there was no good economical
solution for me.

>
> Any comments?
>
> -ben
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: tomw<[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 10:07 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Available AC drive systems?
>
> I much prefer AC also but can readily see why people go with DC.  I'm
> using an HPEVS AC50/Curtis 1238-7510 controller in a small car (Suzuki

> Swift) which works well.  If that option hadn't been available I would

> have gone with DC for cost reasons.  I just can't see paying the high
> prices for more powerful AC systems (as much as I would like to do a
> conversion with an evo motor and Tritium controller), especially with
> the Leaf now becoming available (still not available in my location).
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Available
> -AC-drive-systems-tp3750180p3755415.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.

>
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Re: Available AC drive systems?

Willie McKemie
In reply to this post by Gary Krysztopik-2
On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 09:28:29PM -0500, Gary Krysztopik wrote:
> I ordered a 40kW nominal, 80 kW peak BLDC drive from China and it just
> came in.  I think it's taking a detour to a dyno via the Revolt guys,
> they are making the clutch adapter.  It may still be too small for 3500
> lbs but we'll see.  It's going in a restored '57 bug that will be under
> 2500 lbs with 96 CALB 100Ah cells.

Next time I drive it, I'll pay attention but I believe we rarely use
40kw in the Leaf.  Peak is 80kw which is seen very rarely and then for
only a few seconds.

--
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  58 days 23 hours 26 minutes

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Re: Available AC drive systems?

AMPhibian
In reply to this post by Gary Krysztopik-2
Is that one of the motors Dave Kois is selling though CurrentEVtech?
gary k wrote
I ordered a 40kW nominal, 80 kW peak BLDC drive from China and it just
came in.  I think it's taking a detour to a dyno via the Revolt guys,
they are making the clutch adapter.  It may still be too small for 3500
lbs but we'll see.  It's going in a restored '57 bug that will be under
2500 lbs with 96 CALB 100Ah cells.

As far as the two choices below, I'd guess that the AC50 will be slow
and the Warp/Soliton will be fine.

Gary Krysztopik
ZWheelz, LLC - www.ZWheelz.com
Alamo City Electric Auto Association - www.aceaa.org
blog - http://voices.mysanantonio.com/drive_electric_san_antonio/
San Antonio, TX


 
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Re: Available AC drive systems?

Jeffrey Jenkins
In reply to this post by Collin Kidder
Collin Kidder wrote
I know a lot of the people who sell DC hardware so I don't want to say
anything bad about DC or push hobbyists away from DC. However, I'm really
personally partial to AC (for pretty much all of the reasons you'll see
brought up in AC vs DC fights) despite knowing so many DC vendors. ;) That
having been said, I'm likely to be doing some DC based conversions at some
point.
You won't offend me with your opinions, except insofar as this does seem to be the subject of endless and often tiresome debate. My experience is mainly in power electronics for industrial and, uh... let's just say more esoteric applications, so I have a better than average understanding of the differences in the hardware for both systems. And despite that I make a DC motor controller for EVs, I really am technology-neutral. AC, DC, it all requires switching volts and amps to me...

The fact of the matter is that an AC inverter will always-always-always be more complicated and less efficient than a similarly powerful DC converter (that is the properly terminology, btw, but we typically just call them motor controllers for simplicity's sake). The penalty in price to go with AC can be significant as a result. For example, the 300kW Soliton1 would need a 3rd IGBT module just to become an inverter, and even then it would only capable of delivering 188kW (that is, 240Vrms and 500Arms per phase). In addition, you can't ignore the much more complex software to control an AC motor in a traction application, whereas the control loop for a DC motor can be distilled down to - literally - about a dozen lines of C code (the other 5000+ lines of C in the Soliton controllers is for implementing stuff like the web interface and protecting against catastrophe, etc.).

However, the price penalty paid in the inverter can *theoretically* be offset - at least in part - by savings in the motor. AC induction motors (ACIM) can not only be much more efficient than an equivalent continuous output series DC motor, they can also cost much less to manufacture, owing to the greatly simplified rotor construction. Unfortunately, that doesn't (yet?) seem to be case - AC motors for traction applications in EVs are almost always *more expensive* than equivalent size DC motors; even more expensive per continuous kW than PM DC motors!?! And unless you have a strong stomach I really wouldn't try to compare the cost of an AC motor with PM field (e.g. - PMSM, "BLDC", etc.) to a series DC motor. They call those magnets "rare earth" for a reason, you know... :D

Note that I am not even going to try to factor in such nebulous cost-benefit tradeoffs like regen vs. battery size, etc. The rest of you navel-gazers can parse such lint yourselves. Let's just say I am extremely skeptical of the benefits of regen (and this is despite the fact that I have gotten a Soliton1 to successfully do regen with a WarP-9 on our dyno - so it's not even a matter of being jealous of a feature only possible with AC (or SepEx DC).

My $0.02 - worth price paid.

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Re: Available AC drive systems?

Gary Krysztopik-2
In reply to this post by AMPhibian
Looks like the same one.

What I am skeptical of are the claims of power (and reliability, and
support, ...) but we'll see how it works out.

Gary Krysztopik
ZWheelz, LLC - www.ZWheelz.com
Alamo City Electric Auto Association - www.aceaa.org
blog - http://voices.mysanantonio.com/drive_electric_san_antonio/
San Antonio, TX


On 8/20/2011 8:37 AM, AMPhibian wrote:

> Is that one of the motors Dave Kois is selling though CurrentEVtech?
>
> gary k wrote:
>> I ordered a 40kW nominal, 80 kW peak BLDC drive from China and it just
>> came in.  I think it's taking a detour to a dyno via the Revolt guys,
>> they are making the clutch adapter.  It may still be too small for 3500
>> lbs but we'll see.  It's going in a restored '57 bug that will be under
>> 2500 lbs with 96 CALB 100Ah cells.
>>
>> As far as the two choices below, I'd guess that the AC50 will be slow
>> and the Warp/Soliton will be fine.
>>
>> Gary Krysztopik
>> ZWheelz, LLC - www.ZWheelz.com
>> Alamo City Electric Auto Association - www.aceaa.org
>> blog - http://voices.mysanantonio.com/drive_electric_san_antonio/
>> San Antonio, TX
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Available-AC-drive-systems-tp3750180p3757078.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
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> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
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Re: Available AC drive systems?

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by Collin Kidder
From: Jeffrey Jenkins
> [AC vs. DC] does seem to be the subject of endless and often tiresome
> debate.

Amen to that! It always does seem to create a lot more friction than force.

> The fact of the matter is that an AC inverter will always... be
> more complicated and less efficient than a similarly powerful DC
> converter.

I wouldn't go so far as to say "always"; but it is intrinsically harder to make AC from DC than it is to make DC from DC. An AC inverter requires more parts, which guarantees more complexity, higher cost, and lower reliability.

Efficiency is more complicated. Consider just the controllers: A DC controller normally has just one power semiconductor between motor and battery (a transistor during the on-time, and a freewheel diode during the off-time). An inverter normally has *two* power semiconductors in series with the motor (a high-side transistor at one end of the winding, and a low-side transistor at the other end). So the inverter's conduction losses are usually twice as high.

But that's only true for the usual 6-transistor bridge. You can get back to a single power semiconductor per winding by center-tapping the motor winding or the battery pack. This is less popular and has problems of it's own; but it makes the basic AC vs. DC controller efficiencies the same.

> you can't ignore the much more complex software to control an AC
> motor in a traction application, whereas the control loop for a DC
> motor can be distilled down to - literally - about a dozen lines
> of C code

Heck; a DC motor controller doesn't even require a micro! Even full featured DC controls with forward/reverse, field weakening, and regenerative braking don't need micros.

> the price penalty paid in the inverter can *theoretically* be
> offset by savings in the motor. AC induction motors (ACIM) can
> not only be much more efficient than an equivalent continuous
> output series DC motor, they can also cost much less to manufacture,
> owing to the greatly simplified rotor construction.

This is where it really gets complicated. I think the theoretical efficiency difference between AC and DC motors is small, and the effects of exactly how you make them are large. Thus, the practical manufacturing differences swamp out any theoretical differences.

A motor that is only built in small quantities will cost more than one made in large quantities.

A motor that costs more will generally have higher efficiency, because they could afford better materials.

> nebulous cost-benefit tradeoffs like regen vs. battery size, etc.

Regen certainly works (adds a little range), and it can improve drive-ability (the car has "engine braking" like an ICE). But the owner's driving pattern will determine whether regen is a "wonderful improvement" or "worthless cost-adder" in his situation.

--
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
doing it.    --    Chinese proverb
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

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Re: Available AC drive systems?

Peter C. Thompson-2
In reply to this post by Gary Krysztopik-2
Hi Gary,

Is this the motor/controller combo from Greatland Electric?  
(http://en.glelec.com)

Did you get any instructions on how to connect to the darn thing?  I've
been in long discussions with the factory (via a friend in Shenzen), and
I *think* I've got the connections finally figured out.  I just don't
have any way to modify parameters on the controller (yet).

If you visit my blog, I have the details posted.  Most recently
(yesterday) I got info that the serial comm runs at 4800 8 bits, odd
parity, 1 stop bit. But the data being sent is similar to what is sent
over CANBus.  If you want, I can send you the files I've put together so
far.

Cheers,
     Peter Thompson
     http://cruzware.com/peter/blog

On 8/19/11 7:28 PM, Gary Krysztopik wrote:

> I ordered a 40kW nominal, 80 kW peak BLDC drive from China and it just
> came in.  I think it's taking a detour to a dyno via the Revolt guys,
> they are making the clutch adapter.  It may still be too small for 3500
> lbs but we'll see.  It's going in a restored '57 bug that will be under
> 2500 lbs with 96 CALB 100Ah cells.
>
> As far as the two choices below, I'd guess that the AC50 will be slow
> and the Warp/Soliton will be fine.
>
> Gary Krysztopik
> ZWheelz, LLC - www.ZWheelz.com
> Alamo City Electric Auto Association - www.aceaa.org
> blog - http://voices.mysanantonio.com/drive_electric_san_antonio/
> San Antonio, TX
>
>
> On 8/19/2011 3:58 PM, Ben Jarrett wrote:
>>
>> I'm curious which would perform better if you max'd out allowed voltage.
>>
>> 1. HPEV AC50/Curtis 1238-7510
>> 2. Warp 9/Soliton 1
>>
>> I chose #2 because my jeep will end up around 3500 lbs and I was told the AC50 would
>> not be the best solution.  Also, with #2, I could go to a higher voltage which would help performance.
>>
>> I would have loved to have gone AC, but there was no good economical solution for me.
>>
>> Any comments?
>>
>> -ben
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: tomw<[hidden email]>
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 10:07 AM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Available AC drive systems?
>>
>> I much prefer AC also but can readily see why people go with DC.  I'm using
>> an HPEVS AC50/Curtis 1238-7510 controller in a small car (Suzuki Swift)
>> which works well.  If that option hadn't been available I would have gone
>> with DC for cost reasons.  I just can't see paying the high prices for more
>> powerful AC systems (as much as I would like to do a conversion with an evo
>> motor and Tritium controller), especially with the Leaf now becoming
>> available (still not available in my location).
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Available-AC-drive-systems-tp3750180p3755415.html
>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
>> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
>> |
>> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
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