BYD Blade

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BYD Blade

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Anything new/significant happening with BYD Blade battery? I tried
searching the archives and couldn't seem to find anything.

Thank you,
David Delman
eLectricDeLorean.com
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Re: BYD Blade

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Interesting article on charger incompatibility impacts.

 Looks like yet another  case of industrial arrogance and knuckleheadery?

https://apple.news/Abhhjtko0RUeWT_t83XMK1A


Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 28, 2021, at 6:03 PM, dave delman via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Anything new/significant happening with BYD Blade battery? I tried searching the archives and couldn't seem to find anything.
>
> Thank you,
> David Delman
> eLectricDeLorean.com
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Re: BYD Blade

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I heard Tesla SC is going to be open in Europe to all cars. I’m not sure if
it already has happened.

So this might not be true anymore:

”All that being said, Tesla still only lets Teslas charge at Superchargers
in Europe even though they use the same plugs as everyone else; other EVs
are blocked from using their chargers at the software level. ”

The CCS and its protocols were designed to provide basic level to any user
but for license payers the full power. Even vendor specific EVSE was in the
plans. Naturally as the lead designers came from Volkswagen et al.
(Surprise?)

But Euroepan Commission said hard NO. Manufacturers cannot limit with SW
the charging experience if there is not technical reason. I’ve met the
people in Brussels who were in lead of the process and they did listen all
reasonable arguments.

I remember this bs like yesterday while it is almost 17 years ago when this
hot charging mess started. And it is still ”on the way”. Frankly I cannot
undertand why we just do not have simple DC-connect and PWM for control and
adapter cables for each vehicle (if needed).

-Jukka






ma 29.3.2021 klo 20.41 Glenn Brooks via EV <[hidden email]> kirjoitti:

> Interesting article on charger incompatibility impacts.
>
>  Looks like yet another  case of industrial arrogance and knuckleheadery?
>
> https://apple.news/Abhhjtko0RUeWT_t83XMK1A
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Mar 28, 2021, at 6:03 PM, dave delman via EV <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > Anything new/significant happening with BYD Blade battery? I tried
> searching the archives and couldn't seem to find anything.
> >
> > Thank you,
> > David Delman
> > eLectricDeLorean.com
> > -------------- next part --------------
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Re: BYD Blade

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On 29 Mar 2021 at 22:46, Jukka Järvinen via EV wrote:

> I heard Tesla SC is going to be open in Europe to all cars. I'm not sure if
> it already has happened.

Jukka , thanks for the post.  I hope it has happened, or will soon.  

It would make a lot of sense.   EU seems to have somewhat less regulatory
capture than we have in the US, and it's significantly more pro-consumer.  
Remember that it was EU that pushed for mobile phone interoperability (GMS
system).  

I am not an expert on this but it appears to me that major western European
nations (perhaps bar Italy) are promoting EVs to some extent or another and
have plans to (almost?) phase out ICEVs some time between 2030 and 2040.

They've been building charging points rapidly, but requiring Tesla to fall
into line for universal CCS interoperability would clarify the EU's
commitment, and help expand the charging network.

Now can we get them to support the use of a simple credit card to pay for
charging, without this RFID and charging-club nonsense?  I've bought
gasoline with a credit card at fully unattended / automated filling stations
in Europe so I don't see what the problem is for charging points.  Maybe
someone can illuminate this.  

With simple credit payment, no apps, no RFID, EV driving across the EU will
become a lot easier.  That and maintaining the charging points so that they
actually work when you get there!  

And while we're dreaming, more >100kW points, and more renewable energy
powering them ...

The wild card is recent political gains made by nationalist political
parties across the EU.  It could change but now I think there's at least 50%
chance that French presidency will fall next year.  I worry that that could
lead to weakening or even backtracking on EV adoption.  But it looks as if
despite bojo and company the UK is holding firm thus far, so perhaps that
won't be a major issue after all.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
     If all our bicycles turn into cars, that's a horrible figure.
     It would scare the world.

          -- Zhai Guangming, China National Petroleum Corporation
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

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Re: BYD Blade

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Small payments is an issue we struggle with Parking Energy so I can tell
what my charging infrastructure company planned to do with it.

” Now can we get them to support the use of a simple credit card to pay for
charging, without this RFID and charging-club nonsense?”

As at least in Europe all credit and debit card payments include commission
and handling fees and as these charging stations have no other sale it has
forced everyone to RFIDs and clubs. The transaction and authorization
volume is not there.

This allow payments through a credit line (~$20 with Parking Energy). So
your card will be charged only after that amount of charging events is
full. We charge around 20c/kWh. So ~100kWh chunks.

QR code activation with mobile payments would be really nice. But there are
several systems already and handling everything from Diners Club to Elons
Space Coins is tricky.

A coin slot then? 🤪😅 No. No thanks.

If it would be feasible I would order all our statios free of charge first
thing in the morning. But that would not be called business anymore.
Expensive hobby would be more better description.

BUT! We might get to exactly that. There’s going to be horde of battery
containers with DC quick charging (in China). I already sparked this idea
16 years ago when I paralleled LFP strings with 350Ah cells and used
isolated charger to fill the string 1 while chopping the current down to
lower voltage string 2. Charging station battery can be galvanically
connected to the vehicle battery as long as the system is isolated from the
grid (in Europe). I bet ERCOT would love to have 20.000 1MWh charging
stations with a PPA. That would allow all free charging. 😎

-Jukka


ma 29.3.2021 klo 23.37 EVDL Administrator via EV <[hidden email]>
kirjoitti:

> On 29 Mar 2021 at 22:46, Jukka Järvinen via EV wrote:
>
> > I heard Tesla SC is going to be open in Europe to all cars. I'm not sure
> if
> > it already has happened.
>
> Jukka , thanks for the post.  I hope it has happened, or will soon.
>
> It would make a lot of sense.   EU seems to have somewhat less regulatory
> capture than we have in the US, and it's significantly more pro-consumer.
> Remember that it was EU that pushed for mobile phone interoperability (GMS
> system).
>
> I am not an expert on this but it appears to me that major western
> European
> nations (perhaps bar Italy) are promoting EVs to some extent or another
> and
> have plans to (almost?) phase out ICEVs some time between 2030 and 2040.
>
> They've been building charging points rapidly, but requiring Tesla to fall
> into line for universal CCS interoperability would clarify the EU's
> commitment, and help expand the charging network.
>
> Now can we get them to support the use of a simple credit card to pay for
> charging, without this RFID and charging-club nonsense?  I've bought
> gasoline with a credit card at fully unattended / automated filling
> stations
> in Europe so I don't see what the problem is for charging points.  Maybe
> someone can illuminate this.
>
> With simple credit payment, no apps, no RFID, EV driving across the EU
> will
> become a lot easier.  That and maintaining the charging points so that
> they
> actually work when you get there!
>
> And while we're dreaming, more >100kW points, and more renewable energy
> powering them ...
>
> The wild card is recent political gains made by nationalist political
> parties across the EU.  It could change but now I think there's at least
> 50%
> chance that French presidency will fall next year.  I worry that that
> could
> lead to weakening or even backtracking on EV adoption.  But it looks as if
> despite bojo and company the UK is holding firm thus far, so perhaps that
> won't be a major issue after all.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>      If all our bicycles turn into cars, that's a horrible figure.
>      It would scare the world.
>
>           -- Zhai Guangming, China National Petroleum Corporation
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
> _______________________________________________
> Address messages to [hidden email]
> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
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>
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Re: BYD Blade

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Jukka, nice to see posts from you, after a long time !

I don't understand why the credit card fees are a problem. Why can't
they be built into the cost to the customer, like everywhere else that
uses credit cards ?

Here, in the US, I believe merchants get charged roughly 2% for credit
card processing. (It varies a bit by risk, volume, and other factors.)
That isn't so much to add onto the end-user cost.

Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

------ Original Message ------
From: "Jukka Järvinen via EV" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Jukka Järvinen" <[hidden email]>; "EVDL Administrator"
<[hidden email]>
Sent: 29-Mar-21 2:56:54 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] BYD Blade

>Small payments is an issue we struggle with Parking Energy so I can tell
>what my charging infrastructure company planned to do with it.
>
>” Now can we get them to support the use of a simple credit card to pay for
>charging, without this RFID and charging-club nonsense?”
>
>As at least in Europe all credit and debit card payments include commission
>and handling fees and as these charging stations have no other sale it has
>forced everyone to RFIDs and clubs. The transaction and authorization
>volume is not there.
>
>This allow payments through a credit line (~$20 with Parking Energy). So
>your card will be charged only after that amount of charging events is
>full. We charge around 20c/kWh. So ~100kWh chunks.
>
>QR code activation with mobile payments would be really nice. But there are
>several systems already and handling everything from Diners Club to Elons
>Space Coins is tricky.
>
>A coin slot then? 🤪😅 No. No thanks.
>
>If it would be feasible I would order all our statios free of charge first
>thing in the morning. But that would not be called business anymore.
>Expensive hobby would be more better description.
>
>BUT! We might get to exactly that. There’s going to be horde of battery
>containers with DC quick charging (in China). I already sparked this idea
>16 years ago when I paralleled LFP strings with 350Ah cells and used
>isolated charger to fill the string 1 while chopping the current down to
>lower voltage string 2. Charging station battery can be galvanically
>connected to the vehicle battery as long as the system is isolated from the
>grid (in Europe). I bet ERCOT would love to have 20.000 1MWh charging
>stations with a PPA. That would allow all free charging. 😎
>
>-Jukka
>
>
>ma 29.3.2021 klo 23.37 EVDL Administrator via EV <[hidden email]>
>kirjoitti:
>
>>  On 29 Mar 2021 at 22:46, Jukka Järvinen via EV wrote:
>>
>>  > I heard Tesla SC is going to be open in Europe to all cars. I'm not sure
>>  if
>>  > it already has happened.
>>
>>  Jukka , thanks for the post.  I hope it has happened, or will soon.
>>
>>  It would make a lot of sense.   EU seems to have somewhat less regulatory
>>  capture than we have in the US, and it's significantly more pro-consumer.
>>  Remember that it was EU that pushed for mobile phone interoperability (GMS
>>  system).
>>
>>  I am not an expert on this but it appears to me that major western
>>  European
>>  nations (perhaps bar Italy) are promoting EVs to some extent or another
>>  and
>>  have plans to (almost?) phase out ICEVs some time between 2030 and 2040.
>>
>>  They've been building charging points rapidly, but requiring Tesla to fall
>>  into line for universal CCS interoperability would clarify the EU's
>>  commitment, and help expand the charging network.
>>
>>  Now can we get them to support the use of a simple credit card to pay for
>>  charging, without this RFID and charging-club nonsense?  I've bought
>>  gasoline with a credit card at fully unattended / automated filling
>>  stations
>>  in Europe so I don't see what the problem is for charging points.  Maybe
>>  someone can illuminate this.
>>
>>  With simple credit payment, no apps, no RFID, EV driving across the EU
>>  will
>>  become a lot easier.  That and maintaining the charging points so that
>>  they
>>  actually work when you get there!
>>
>>  And while we're dreaming, more >100kW points, and more renewable energy
>>  powering them ...
>>
>>  The wild card is recent political gains made by nationalist political
>>  parties across the EU.  It could change but now I think there's at least
>>  50%
>>  chance that French presidency will fall next year.  I worry that that
>>  could
>>  lead to weakening or even backtracking on EV adoption.  But it looks as if
>>  despite bojo and company the UK is holding firm thus far, so perhaps that
>>  won't be a major issue after all.
>>
>>  David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>>
>>  To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
>>  offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>>
>>  = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>       If all our bicycles turn into cars, that's a horrible figure.
>>       It would scare the world.
>>
>>            -- Zhai Guangming, China National Petroleum Corporation
>>  = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  Address messages to [hidden email]
>>  No other addresses in TO and CC fields
>>  UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>>
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Re: BYD Blade

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Has anyone found a nice source for "EV" face masks?
Its a good place to advertise.

bob


>
>
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Re: BYD Blade

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Merchants are not allowed to add a surcharge for using a credit card.
The credit card folks won't allow it. They want you to spread the cost
over all your customers so it isn't so obvious to consumers how much the
service actually costs.

It is a gray area whether you can apply a cash, or "no credit card"
discount. (Basically a work around for not charging for the credit card
use.)

Bill D.


On 3/30/2021 12:29 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

> Jukka, nice to see posts from you, after a long time !
>
> I don't understand why the credit card fees are a problem. Why can't
> they be built into the cost to the customer, like everywhere else that
> uses credit cards ?
>
> Here, in the US, I believe merchants get charged roughly 2% for credit
> card processing. (It varies a bit by risk, volume, and other factors.)
> That isn't so much to add onto the end-user cost.
>
> Peri

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Re: BYD Blade

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I don't know exactly how the rules work, but you can set your retail
price to whatever you want. I think you can't, at the till or checkout,
add a surcharge for using a credit card, but you can certainly pass the
cost along to the consumer.

Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

------ Original Message ------
From: "Bill Dube via EV" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Cc: "Bill Dube" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 29-Mar-21 5:11:46 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] BYD Blade

>Merchants are not allowed to add a surcharge for using a credit card. The credit card folks won't allow it. They want you to spread the cost over all your customers so it isn't so obvious to consumers how much the service actually costs.
>
>It is a gray area whether you can apply a cash, or "no credit card" discount. (Basically a work around for not charging for the credit card use.)
>
>Bill D.
>
>
>On 3/30/2021 12:29 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>>Jukka, nice to see posts from you, after a long time !
>>
>>I don't understand why the credit card fees are a problem. Why can't they be built into the cost to the customer, like everywhere else that uses credit cards ?
>>
>>Here, in the US, I believe merchants get charged roughly 2% for credit card processing. (It varies a bit by risk, volume, and other factors.) That isn't so much to add onto the end-user cost.
>>
>>Peri
>
>_______________________________________________
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Re: BYD Blade

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Bill Dube via EV wrote:
> Merchants are not allowed to add a surcharge for using a credit card.
> The credit card folks won't allow it. They want you to spread the cost
> over all your customers so it isn't so obvious to consumers how much the
> service actually costs.

And, in addition to the 2-4% fee, there is often a monthly minimum, or a
minimum transaction fee (it depends on the brand of card).

For example, Paypal is charging me 2.9% + $0.30 (US) or 4.2% + $0.30
(international) for every purchase on my website.

Lee Hart

--
All children are born engineers. Watch them at play. They're not
just playing; they're experimenting, building and learning. That's
engineering! Then we get them in school and squash it out of them.
(Geoffrey Orsak, Southern Methodist University dean of engineering)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

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Re: BYD Blade

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
>Bill Dube via EV wrote:
>> Merchants are not allowed to add a surcharge for using a credit card.
>> The credit card folks won't allow it. They want you to spread the cost
>> over all your customers so it isn't so obvious to consumers how much the
>> service actually costs.

That isn't entirely true anymore.  A few years ago, Gas stations all suddenly started advertising both Cash and Credit prices.
From what I could tell, someone finally sued the CC companies and won.

--

Try my Sensible Email package!  https://sourceforge.net/projects/sensibleemail/
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Re: BYD Blade

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On 30 Mar 2021 at 0:56, Jukka Järvinen via EV wrote:

>  The transaction and authorization volume is not there.

I think that it needs to be as easy to charge an EV as it is to fuel an
ICEV.  

I can't imagine that any ICEV driver would want a wallet with a credit card
for Shell, another for BP, another for Marathon, another for Speedway,
another for Sheetz ... but isn't that what we're asking them to do with all
these different charging networks?

I thnk that an EV driver should be able to charge his EV at ANY paid
charging point, just a an ICEV driver can fill his ICEV at any filling
station.

If the problem is that too many people charge too little, with very small
monetary sums, then the charging companies should structure the fees
differently.  They should make it more economical to charge large amounts.

I guess that would entail a fairly steep initial connection charge, and
maybe a lower per-kWh or per-minute fee.

Also, as EV batteries grow in capacity, and range grows to 500km, 600km, and
more, the need for frequent small charges will diminish. So perhaps the
problem will solve itself in a few years.

Right now in Europe, with newer EVs, I think that a typical charge on long
trips would be around 30 - 35 kWh.  I looked at a few charging points on
Chargemap and calculated that a 32kWh charge might cost between 4 and 6
euros.  

Is that too small for a credit card transaction?

If it is too small, what do you think is a good minimum amount?

Thanks again!

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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     with larger cerebrums and smaller adrenal glands.
 
                                        -- H L Mencken
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Re: BYD Blade

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On 28 Mar 2021 at 21:03, dave delman via EV wrote:

> Anything new/significant happening with BYD Blade battery?

This thread seems to have diverged from the original question.  

Here's some recent information about BYD's battery.

https://insideevs.com/news/495023/byd-blade-battery-entering-european-
market/

https://v.gd/Es1G3i

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
     How is the world ruled, and how do wars start?  Diplomats
     tell lies to journalists, and then believe what they read.

                                        -- Karl Kraus
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Re: BYD Blade

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I believe it’s more than you think. I don’t have a business but I asked merchants before and they said just the card reader was expensive. It seems complicated and based on sales according to this article 

https://paymentdepot.com/blog/average-credit-card-processing-fees/







Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, March 29, 2021, 7:29 PM, Peri Hartman via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jukka, nice to see posts from you, after a long time !

I don't understand why the credit card fees are a problem. Why can't
they be built into the cost to the customer, like everywhere else that
uses credit cards ?

Here, in the US, I believe merchants get charged roughly 2% for credit
card processing. (It varies a bit by risk, volume, and other factors.)
That isn't so much to add onto the end-user cost.

Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

------ Original Message ------
From: "Jukka Järvinen via EV" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Jukka Järvinen" <[hidden email]>; "EVDL Administrator"
<[hidden email]>
Sent: 29-Mar-21 2:56:54 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] BYD Blade

>Small payments is an issue we struggle with Parking Energy so I can tell
>what my charging infrastructure company planned to do with it.
>
>” Now can we get them to support the use of a simple credit card to pay for
>charging, without this RFID and charging-club nonsense?”
>
>As at least in Europe all credit and debit card payments include commission
>and handling fees and as these charging stations have no other sale it has
>forced everyone to RFIDs and clubs. The transaction and authorization
>volume is not there.
>
>This allow payments through a credit line (~$20 with Parking Energy). So
>your card will be charged only after that amount of charging events is
>full. We charge around 20c/kWh. So ~100kWh chunks.
>
>QR code activation with mobile payments would be really nice. But there are
>several systems already and handling everything from Diners Club to Elons
>Space Coins is tricky.
>
>A coin slot then? 🤪😅 No. No thanks.
>
>If it would be feasible I would order all our statios free of charge first
>thing in the morning. But that would not be called business anymore.
>Expensive hobby would be more better description.
>
>BUT! We might get to exactly that. There’s going to be horde of battery
>containers with DC quick charging (in China). I already sparked this idea
>16 years ago when I paralleled LFP strings with 350Ah cells and used
>isolated charger to fill the string 1 while chopping the current down to
>lower voltage string 2. Charging station battery can be galvanically
>connected to the vehicle battery as long as the system is isolated from the
>grid (in Europe). I bet ERCOT would love to have 20.000 1MWh charging
>stations with a PPA. That would allow all free charging. 😎
>
>-Jukka
>
>
>ma 29.3.2021 klo 23.37 EVDL Administrator via EV <[hidden email]>
>kirjoitti:
>
>>  On 29 Mar 2021 at 22:46, Jukka Järvinen via EV wrote:
>>
>>  > I heard Tesla SC is going to be open in Europe to all cars. I'm not sure
>>  if
>>  > it already has happened.
>>
>>  Jukka , thanks for the post.  I hope it has happened, or will soon.
>>
>>  It would make a lot of sense.  EU seems to have somewhat less regulatory
>>  capture than we have in the US, and it's significantly more pro-consumer.
>>  Remember that it was EU that pushed for mobile phone interoperability (GMS
>>  system).
>>
>>  I am not an expert on this but it appears to me that major western
>>  European
>>  nations (perhaps bar Italy) are promoting EVs to some extent or another
>>  and
>>  have plans to (almost?) phase out ICEVs some time between 2030 and 2040.
>>
>>  They've been building charging points rapidly, but requiring Tesla to fall
>>  into line for universal CCS interoperability would clarify the EU's
>>  commitment, and help expand the charging network.
>>
>>  Now can we get them to support the use of a simple credit card to pay for
>>  charging, without this RFID and charging-club nonsense?  I've bought
>>  gasoline with a credit card at fully unattended / automated filling
>>  stations
>>  in Europe so I don't see what the problem is for charging points.  Maybe
>>  someone can illuminate this.
>>
>>  With simple credit payment, no apps, no RFID, EV driving across the EU
>>  will
>>  become a lot easier.  That and maintaining the charging points so that
>>  they
>>  actually work when you get there!
>>
>>  And while we're dreaming, more >100kW points, and more renewable energy
>>  powering them ...
>>
>>  The wild card is recent political gains made by nationalist political
>>  parties across the EU.  It could change but now I think there's at least
>>  50%
>>  chance that French presidency will fall next year.  I worry that that
>>  could
>>  lead to weakening or even backtracking on EV adoption.  But it looks as if
>>  despite bojo and company the UK is holding firm thus far, so perhaps that
>>  won't be a major issue after all.
>>
>>  David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>>
>>  To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
>>  offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>>
>>  = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>      If all our bicycles turn into cars, that's a horrible figure.
>>      It would scare the world.
>>
>>            -- Zhai Guangming, China National Petroleum Corporation
>>  = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>
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Re: BYD Blade

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
The Blade Battery is a really neat approach to add structural support to
the pack and it is a few steps away from what I am doing.  :)

The new Blade cell dimensions do really help on the mechanical support but
it also allows manufacturing methods which are more relaxed. They still do
foil coating with it which is slow and hard compared to separator coating.
But all that allows faster production and less cost. Excellent development!

What is coming after the Blade and other structural packs? It's the
foil-less system. Film cells (not so thin) have been overlooked for
decades. Design ideas go way back to the Voltaic pile from the 18th century
and pick up all kinds of small innovations from the 1970's, 80's and all
the way up here to our Lithium era.

There is actually no need to have 2 separate current collectors as in the
Blade or Tesla pack (Al/Cu foils and the battery case). Only one current
collector is needed and it can be the case.

Only reason not to do fully open electrode designs have been volatile
compounds such as electrolytes. Issues have been also from the
electrode point of view the most aggressive element on Earth called H2O.

With 12 hour charge and discharge demand for energy storage applications
this has opened the path. Not sure yet if this is usable in EV due longer
charging time but we'll see. EV buses are very doable due
to overnight charging and the possibility to get closer to the raw material
cost of LFP cell ($8/kWh). This path also opens up the door to do fully
electric containerships. Electrify everything is the thing now. Really
looking forward to my first 20.000 TEU EV conversion project. Exciting
times! 8)

The "future" is here now guys. This is what we've been boasting about for
the past 30 years (some of you even longer than that). I'm having a blast.
I hope you do too.

-Jukka






ti 30. maalisk. 2021 klo 7.16 EVDL Administrator via EV ([hidden email])
kirjoitti:

> On 28 Mar 2021 at 21:03, dave delman via EV wrote:
>
> > Anything new/significant happening with BYD Blade battery?
>
> This thread seems to have diverged from the original question.
>
> Here's some recent information about BYD's battery.
>
> https://insideevs.com/news/495023/byd-blade-battery-entering-european-
> market/
> <https://insideevs.com/news/495023/byd-blade-battery-entering-european-market/>
>
> https://v.gd/Es1G3i
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>      How is the world ruled, and how do wars start?  Diplomats
>      tell lies to journalists, and then believe what they read.
>
>                                         -- Karl Kraus
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
> _______________________________________________
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Charging payment system costs. Was: BYD Blade

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
The thing is one full tank of gasoline is (at least in here) around
$80-100. That is much more than the 40-50 kWh with normal electricity
prices (~10c/kWh) which is only $4-5 per charge. People here stare at that
cost and avoid all expensive charging sites. People always seek free charge
because there are plenty of places who do that.

Also the volume. Normally one gas station serves hundreds of clients in one
day and might have even groceries and other stuff for sale.

At EV charging stations there is less volume, cheaper product and no
additional revenues from other products.

And that is the reason why everyone has a hard time enabling the charging
of these "micro payments". The centrally executed (in app purchases) is
doable and widely used. This is easily enabled through a membership.

-Jukka

ti 30. maalisk. 2021 klo 7.11 EVDL Administrator via EV ([hidden email])
kirjoitti:

> On 30 Mar 2021 at 0:56, Jukka Järvinen via EV wrote:
>
> >  The transaction and authorization volume is not there.
>
> I think that it needs to be as easy to charge an EV as it is to fuel an
> ICEV.
>
> I can't imagine that any ICEV driver would want a wallet with a credit
> card
> for Shell, another for BP, another for Marathon, another for Speedway,
> another for Sheetz ... but isn't that what we're asking them to do with
> all
> these different charging networks?
>
> I thnk that an EV driver should be able to charge his EV at ANY paid
> charging point, just a an ICEV driver can fill his ICEV at any filling
> station.
>
> If the problem is that too many people charge too little, with very small
> monetary sums, then the charging companies should structure the fees
> differently.  They should make it more economical to charge large amounts.
>
> I guess that would entail a fairly steep initial connection charge, and
> maybe a lower per-kWh or per-minute fee.
>
> Also, as EV batteries grow in capacity, and range grows to 500km, 600km,
> and
> more, the need for frequent small charges will diminish. So perhaps the
> problem will solve itself in a few years.
>
> Right now in Europe, with newer EVs, I think that a typical charge on long
> trips would be around 30 - 35 kWh.  I looked at a few charging points on
> Chargemap and calculated that a 32kWh charge might cost between 4 and 6
> euros.
>
> Is that too small for a credit card transaction?
>
> If it is too small, what do you think is a good minimum amount?
>
> Thanks again!
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>      War will never cease until babies begin to come into the world
>      with larger cerebrums and smaller adrenal glands.
>
>                                         -- H L Mencken
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
> _______________________________________________
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> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
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Re: Charging payment system costs. Was: BYD Blade

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Well maybe, as David or someone wrote, it's just too soon. Eventually,
the convenience of having a universal payment method will win.

That universal method might not be the credit card as we know it. Things
are changing and it may resemble paypal or some other system more app
based.

Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

------ Original Message ------
From: "Jukka Järvinen via EV" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Jukka Järvinen" <[hidden email]>; "EVDL Administrator"
<[hidden email]>
Sent: 30-Mar-21 7:11:28 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Charging payment system costs. Was: BYD Blade

>The thing is one full tank of gasoline is (at least in here) around
>$80-100. That is much more than the 40-50 kWh with normal electricity
>prices (~10c/kWh) which is only $4-5 per charge. People here stare at that
>cost and avoid all expensive charging sites. People always seek free charge
>because there are plenty of places who do that.
>
>Also the volume. Normally one gas station serves hundreds of clients in one
>day and might have even groceries and other stuff for sale.
>
>At EV charging stations there is less volume, cheaper product and no
>additional revenues from other products.
>
>And that is the reason why everyone has a hard time enabling the charging
>of these "micro payments". The centrally executed (in app purchases) is
>doable and widely used. This is easily enabled through a membership.
>
>-Jukka
>
>ti 30. maalisk. 2021 klo 7.11 EVDL Administrator via EV ([hidden email])
>kirjoitti:
>
>>  On 30 Mar 2021 at 0:56, Jukka Järvinen via EV wrote:
>>
>>  >  The transaction and authorization volume is not there.
>>
>>  I think that it needs to be as easy to charge an EV as it is to fuel an
>>  ICEV.
>>
>>  I can't imagine that any ICEV driver would want a wallet with a credit
>>  card
>>  for Shell, another for BP, another for Marathon, another for Speedway,
>>  another for Sheetz ... but isn't that what we're asking them to do with
>>  all
>>  these different charging networks?
>>
>>  I thnk that an EV driver should be able to charge his EV at ANY paid
>>  charging point, just a an ICEV driver can fill his ICEV at any filling
>>  station.
>>
>>  If the problem is that too many people charge too little, with very small
>>  monetary sums, then the charging companies should structure the fees
>>  differently.  They should make it more economical to charge large amounts.
>>
>>  I guess that would entail a fairly steep initial connection charge, and
>>  maybe a lower per-kWh or per-minute fee.
>>
>>  Also, as EV batteries grow in capacity, and range grows to 500km, 600km,
>>  and
>>  more, the need for frequent small charges will diminish. So perhaps the
>>  problem will solve itself in a few years.
>>
>>  Right now in Europe, with newer EVs, I think that a typical charge on long
>>  trips would be around 30 - 35 kWh.  I looked at a few charging points on
>>  Chargemap and calculated that a 32kWh charge might cost between 4 and 6
>>  euros.
>>
>>  Is that too small for a credit card transaction?
>>
>>  If it is too small, what do you think is a good minimum amount?
>>
>>  Thanks again!
>>
>>  David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>>
>>  To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
>>  offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>>
>>  = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>       War will never cease until babies begin to come into the world
>>       with larger cerebrums and smaller adrenal glands.
>>
>>                                          -- H L Mencken
>>  = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  Address messages to [hidden email]
>>  No other addresses in TO and CC fields
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>>
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Re: Charging payment system costs. Was: BYD Blade

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On 30 Mar 2021 at 17:11, Jukka Järvinen via EV wrote:

> The thing is one full tank of gasoline is (at least in here) around
> $80-100. That is much more than the 40-50 kWh with normal electricity
> prices (~10c/kWh) which is only $4-5 per charge

Thanks - I think that I see part of the problem.  It sounds like the
charging companies are expecting cost percentages and revenue similar to
filling stations.

That isn't possible yet.  EV charging is a business in its infancy.  The
charging companies must be patient.  In the future the number of EVs will
grow (especially in EU), their use for long distance travel will increase,  
and their batteries will get larger.  Then of course the charging business
volume will increase.

EV adoption can be speeded up by making charging easier and more accessable!

In the meantime, they should have more realistic expectations, and watch
their expenses.  Maybe they are paying their CEOs too much. :-)

Perhaps what is needed is a tax credit or subsidy for the credit card fees.

> The centrally executed (in app purchases) is doable and widely used.

I read recently that Apple and Google take 30% of in-app purchases as their
commission.  That's an outrageous amount!  It can't possibly be less than
credit card fees.  

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
     Some people ask, "Why?" Others ask, "Why not?"
     Then later they say, "Oh."

                              -- Found on the Net
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

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Re: Charging payment system costs. Was: BYD Blade

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Sometimes I see things posted here so outrageous I *have* to respond, no matter who said it.

Filling stations make virtually nothing from sale of fuel. Margins are razor thin.  They make their money from other things, like selling soda or candy, or having a car wash.

Sheesh!

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Mar 30, 2021, at 9:13 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 30 Mar 2021 at 17:11, Jukka Järvinen via EV wrote:
>
>> The thing is one full tank of gasoline is (at least in here) around
>> $80-100. That is much more than the 40-50 kWh with normal electricity
>> prices (~10c/kWh) which is only $4-5 per charge
>
> Thanks - I think that I see part of the problem.  It sounds like the
> charging companies are expecting cost percentages and revenue similar to
> filling stations.
>
> That isn't possible yet.  EV charging is a business in its infancy.  The
> charging companies must be patient.  In the future the number of EVs will
> grow (especially in EU), their use for long distance travel will increase,  
> and their batteries will get larger.  Then of course the charging business
> volume will increase.
>
> EV adoption can be speeded up by making charging easier and more accessable!
>
> In the meantime, they should have more realistic expectations, and watch
> their expenses.  Maybe they are paying their CEOs too much. :-)
>
> Perhaps what is needed is a tax credit or subsidy for the credit card fees.
>
>> The centrally executed (in app purchases) is doable and widely used.
>
> I read recently that Apple and Google take 30% of in-app purchases as their
> commission.  That's an outrageous amount!  It can't possibly be less than
> credit card fees.  
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
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Re: Charging payment system costs. Was: BYD Blade

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On 3/30/21 9:34 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> Well maybe, as David or someone wrote, it's just too soon. Eventually,
> the convenience of having a universal payment method will win.
>
> That universal method might not be the credit card as we know it. Things
> are changing and it may resemble paypal or some other system more app
> based.

Square has been processing credit card payments cost effectively for
quite a while.  SQ is now a major holding in "disruptive technology"
funds.  ARKK holds 10% TSLA and 5.5% SQ.

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