Better Emergency Brake

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Better Emergency Brake

Mark Hanson-2
Hi,

With the usual problemn of an EV gaining weight and still wanting braking
safety, I'm curious if there is a good way to get better emergency braking.  
It seams like on a rear disc brake, the emergency brake handle just slows
the vehicle down.  This is what happens on my E-Porsche and our diesel
Beetle with rear disc brakes.  I remember with my Electro-Metro which had
*drum* rear brakes, I could lock up the rear wheels with the emergency brake
handle.

Is there a way to improve emergency braking if the main brakes fail?  Or is
that just an inherent problem with rear disc brakes?

have a renewable energy day,
Mark

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Re: Better Emergency Brake

Roland Wiench
Hello Mark,

That is why I have drum brakes on the rear and disc on the front.  The
problem with a EV with a manual transmission, there is no compression you
have with a engine where you can have the transmission in 1st or reversed
which may hold the vehicle on a small slope and a 2nd back up using a
emergency brake.

With a EV, you have only one parking brake option, so when I am on a steeper
sloped, I put out a set of wheel chocks which I made out of a piece of 4 by
4 inch wood that is cut 4 inches long that the face is cut at a 45 degree
angle.  Attach one of those heavy 14 grit adhesive back sand paper that is
use for floor sanding.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Hanson" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 11:52 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Better Emergency Brake


> Hi,
>
> With the usual problemn of an EV gaining weight and still wanting braking
> safety, I'm curious if there is a good way to get better emergency
> braking.
> It seams like on a rear disc brake, the emergency brake handle just slows
> the vehicle down.  This is what happens on my E-Porsche and our diesel
> Beetle with rear disc brakes.  I remember with my Electro-Metro which had
> *drum* rear brakes, I could lock up the rear wheels with the emergency
> brake
> handle.
>
> Is there a way to improve emergency braking if the main brakes fail?  Or
> is
> that just an inherent problem with rear disc brakes?
>
> have a renewable energy day,
> Mark
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Messenger Café - open for fun 24/7. Hot games, cool activities served
> daily.
> Visit now. http://cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_AugHMtagline
>
> > _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev 

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Re: Better Emergency Brake

mike golub
Do you tie anything to wheel chocks?
I have run over them sometimes.

--- Roland Wiench <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello Mark,
>
> That is why I have drum brakes on the rear and disc
> on the front.  The
> problem with a EV with a manual transmission, there
> is no compression you
> have with a engine where you can have the
> transmission in 1st or reversed
> which may hold the vehicle on a small slope and a
> 2nd back up using a
> emergency brake.
>
> With a EV, you have only one parking brake option,
> so when I am on a steeper
> sloped, I put out a set of wheel chocks which I made
> out of a piece of 4 by
> 4 inch wood that is cut 4 inches long that the face
> is cut at a 45 degree
> angle.  Attach one of those heavy 14 grit adhesive
> back sand paper that is
> use for floor sanding.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Hanson" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 11:52 AM
> Subject: [EVDL] Better Emergency Brake
>
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > With the usual problemn of an EV gaining weight
> and still wanting braking
> > safety, I'm curious if there is a good way to get
> better emergency
> > braking.
> > It seams like on a rear disc brake, the emergency
> brake handle just slows
> > the vehicle down.  This is what happens on my
> E-Porsche and our diesel
> > Beetle with rear disc brakes.  I remember with my
> Electro-Metro which had
> > *drum* rear brakes, I could lock up the rear
> wheels with the emergency
> > brake
> > handle.
> >
> > Is there a way to improve emergency braking if the
> main brakes fail?  Or
> > is
> > that just an inherent problem with rear disc
> brakes?
> >
> > have a renewable energy day,
> > Mark
> >
> >
>
_________________________________________________________________

> > Messenger Café - open for fun 24/7. Hot games,
> cool activities served
> > daily.
> > Visit now.
> http://cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_AugHMtagline
> >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev 
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Re: Better Emergency Brake

Roland Wiench
Hello Mike,

Tied a big rope to a pole, just kidding.

No, the wheels chocks are not tie.  Could never roll over them.  Do not push
the accelerator down that much to get out of a parking spot.

The accelerator has a very soft start mode.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "mike golub" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Better Emergency Brake


Do you tie anything to wheel chocks?
I have run over them sometimes.

--- Roland Wiench <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello Mark,
>
> That is why I have drum brakes on the rear and disc
> on the front.  The
> problem with a EV with a manual transmission, there
> is no compression you
> have with a engine where you can have the
> transmission in 1st or reversed
> which may hold the vehicle on a small slope and a
> 2nd back up using a
> emergency brake.
>
> With a EV, you have only one parking brake option,
> so when I am on a steeper
> sloped, I put out a set of wheel chocks which I made
> out of a piece of 4 by
> 4 inch wood that is cut 4 inches long that the face
> is cut at a 45 degree
> angle.  Attach one of those heavy 14 grit adhesive
> back sand paper that is
> use for floor sanding.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Hanson" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 11:52 AM
> Subject: [EVDL] Better Emergency Brake
>
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > With the usual problemn of an EV gaining weight
> and still wanting braking
> > safety, I'm curious if there is a good way to get
> better emergency
> > braking.
> > It seams like on a rear disc brake, the emergency
> brake handle just slows
> > the vehicle down.  This is what happens on my
> E-Porsche and our diesel
> > Beetle with rear disc brakes.  I remember with my
> Electro-Metro which had
> > *drum* rear brakes, I could lock up the rear
> wheels with the emergency
> > brake
> > handle.
> >
> > Is there a way to improve emergency braking if the
> main brakes fail?  Or
> > is
> > that just an inherent problem with rear disc
> brakes?
> >
> > have a renewable energy day,
> > Mark
> >
> >
>
_________________________________________________________________

> > Messenger Café - open for fun 24/7. Hot games,
> cool activities served
> > daily.
> > Visit now.
> http://cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_AugHMtagline
> >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Re: Better Emergency Brake

Dave Brandt
In reply to this post by Mark Hanson-2
Hi, Mark.  I think the problem is that disc calipers take a bunch of pressure to actuate, so the parking brake cable only works so-so.  It is also this way on my Fiero.  We'll have to wait and see how well the wilwood brakes John W. is going to use work.

If you are looking to upgrade, check out the rear disc brakes from a late 80's-early 90'2 daytona or laser.  They had a small drum brake on the back just for the parking brake, and a main disc that only activated under the hydraulic pressure.
 




David Brandt


----- Original Message ----
From: Mark Hanson <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, August 9, 2007 1:52:15 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Better Emergency Brake


Hi,

With the usual problemn of an EV gaining weight and still wanting braking
safety, I'm curious if there is a good way to get better emergency braking.  
It seams like on a rear disc brake, the emergency brake handle just slows
the vehicle down.  This is what happens on my E-Porsche and our diesel
Beetle with rear disc brakes.  I remember with my Electro-Metro which had
*drum* rear brakes, I could lock up the rear wheels with the emergency brake
handle.

Is there a way to improve emergency braking if the main brakes fail?  Or is
that just an inherent problem with rear disc brakes?

have a renewable energy day,
Mark

_________________________________________________________________
Messenger Café — open for fun 24/7. Hot games, cool activities served daily.
Visit now. http://cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_AugHMtagline


       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting 

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Re: Better Emergency Brake

Zeke Yewdall
Could be an issue with adjustment and condition of pads?.  On my
courier, I can drive with the parking brake full on and does just
about nothing -- it has rear drums and no weight over the rear wheels
either.  And my subaru has the parking brake on the front discs, and
if it's adjusted right, it'll stall the engine if you try to drive
with it on.  If you are doing retrofitting, you could also look into a
driveshaft mounted drum brake, where alot of larger trucks put the
parking brake.

Z

On 8/9/07, David Brandt <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi, Mark.  I think the problem is that disc calipers take a bunch of pressure to actuate, so the parking brake cable only works so-so.  It is also this way on my Fiero.  We'll have to wait and see how well the wilwood brakes John W. is going to use work.
>
> If you are looking to upgrade, check out the rear disc brakes from a late 80's-early 90'2 daytona or laser.  They had a small drum brake on the back just for the parking brake, and a main disc that only activated under the hydraulic pressure.
>
>
>
>
>
> David Brandt
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Mark Hanson <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Thursday, August 9, 2007 1:52:15 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] Better Emergency Brake
>
>
> Hi,
>
> With the usual problemn of an EV gaining weight and still wanting braking
> safety, I'm curious if there is a good way to get better emergency braking.
> It seams like on a rear disc brake, the emergency brake handle just slows
> the vehicle down.  This is what happens on my E-Porsche and our diesel
> Beetle with rear disc brakes.  I remember with my Electro-Metro which had
> *drum* rear brakes, I could lock up the rear wheels with the emergency brake
> handle.
>
> Is there a way to improve emergency braking if the main brakes fail?  Or is
> that just an inherent problem with rear disc brakes?
>
> have a renewable energy day,
> Mark
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Messenger Café — open for fun 24/7. Hot games, cool activities served daily.
> Visit now. http://cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_AugHMtagline
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Re: Better Emergency Brake

David Wilker
In reply to this post by Mark Hanson-2
You have the emergency brake on the front brakes? I have never seen that before. I was going to suggest a line-loc, even though it doesn't count "legally" as a emergency brake (Must be mechanical).


David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)

---- Zeke Yewdall <[hidden email]> wrote:
Could be an issue with adjustment and condition of pads?.  On my
courier, I can drive with the parking brake full on and does just
about nothing -- it has rear drums and no weight over the rear wheels
either.  And my subaru has the parking brake on the front discs, and
if it's adjusted right, it'll stall the engine if you try to drive
with it on.  If you are doing retrofitting, you could also look into a
driveshaft mounted drum brake, where alot of larger trucks put the
parking brake.

Z

On 8/9/07, David Brandt <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi, Mark.  I think the problem is that disc calipers take a bunch of pressure to actuate, so the parking brake cable only works so-so.  It is also this way on my Fiero.  We'll have to wait and see how well the wilwood brakes John W. is going to use work.
>
> If you are looking to upgrade, check out the rear disc brakes from a late 80's-early 90'2 daytona or laser.  They had a small drum brake on the back just for the parking brake, and a main disc that only activated under the hydraulic pressure.
>
>
>
>
>
> David Brandt
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Mark Hanson <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Thursday, August 9, 2007 1:52:15 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] Better Emergency Brake
>
>
> Hi,
>
> With the usual problemn of an EV gaining weight and still wanting braking
> safety, I'm curious if there is a good way to get better emergency braking.
> It seams like on a rear disc brake, the emergency brake handle just slows
> the vehicle down.  This is what happens on my E-Porsche and our diesel
> Beetle with rear disc brakes.  I remember with my Electro-Metro which had
> *drum* rear brakes, I could lock up the rear wheels with the emergency brake
> handle.
>
> Is there a way to improve emergency braking if the main brakes fail?  Or is
> that just an inherent problem with rear disc brakes?
>
> have a renewable energy day,
> Mark
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Messenger Café — open for fun 24/7. Hot games, cool activities served daily.
> Visit now. http://cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_AugHMtagline
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
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Re: Better Emergency Brake

mos6507-2
In reply to this post by Mark Hanson-2
The standard thing to do is to turn the front wheels so that the car can
hopefully lock into the curb if it starts to roll.  Not sure if that would
be enough if you had a soft curb or an especially steep incline.

-----Original Message-----
Hi,

With the usual problemn of an EV gaining weight and still wanting braking
safety, I'm curious if there is a good way to get better emergency braking.

It seams like on a rear disc brake, the emergency brake handle just slows
the vehicle down.  This is what happens on my E-Porsche and our diesel
Beetle with rear disc brakes.  I remember with my Electro-Metro which had
*drum* rear brakes, I could lock up the rear wheels with the emergency brake

handle.

Is there a way to improve emergency braking if the main brakes fail?  Or is
that just an inherent problem with rear disc brakes?


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Re: Better Emergency Brake

Eduardo K.
In reply to this post by David Wilker
On Thu, Aug 09, 2007 at 07:20:19PM -0700, David Wilker wrote:
> You have the emergency brake on the front brakes? I have never seen that before.

Some Subarus and all Citroens with Hydropneumatic suspension brake the
from wheels with the emergency/parking brake.


--
Eduardo K.            |
http://www.carfun.cl  | I'm white and nerdy
http://ev.nn.cl       |               Weird Al
                      |

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Re: Better Emergency Brake

Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
In reply to this post by Dave Brandt
You could have another taperlock adapter made for the front of a motor and use a disc brake caliper setup for a lawn tractor.  They are about 5 inches in diameter and clamp using a cable.  I have also seen instances where people modify a disc brake to mount on the snout of the axle pinion and actuate with a cable.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Brandt
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 18:44
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Better Emergency Brake

Hi, Mark.  I think the problem is that disc calipers take a bunch of pressure to actuate, so the parking brake cable only works so-so.  It is also this way on my Fiero.  We'll have to wait and see how well the wilwood brakes John W. is going to use work.

If you are looking to upgrade, check out the rear disc brakes from a late 80's-early 90'2 daytona or laser.  They had a small drum brake on the back just for the parking brake, and a main disc that only activated under the hydraulic pressure.
 




David Brandt


----- Original Message ----
From: Mark Hanson <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, August 9, 2007 1:52:15 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Better Emergency Brake


Hi,

With the usual problemn of an EV gaining weight and still wanting braking safety, I'm curious if there is a good way to get better emergency braking.  
It seams like on a rear disc brake, the emergency brake handle just slows the vehicle down.  This is what happens on my E-Porsche and our diesel Beetle with rear disc brakes.  I remember with my Electro-Metro which had
*drum* rear brakes, I could lock up the rear wheels with the emergency brake handle.

Is there a way to improve emergency braking if the main brakes fail?  Or is that just an inherent problem with rear disc brakes?

have a renewable energy day,
Mark

_________________________________________________________________
Messenger Café - open for fun 24/7. Hot games, cool activities served daily.
Visit now. http://cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_AugHMtagline


       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting 

_______________________________________________
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Re: Better Emergency Brake

Dave Cover
Don't forget, any brake on the motor or drive shaft is not safe if there is a differential between
the brake and the tires. If one wheel looses traction (resting on sand, ice, etc.) the vehicle can
roll.

Dave Cover

--- "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> You could have another taperlock adapter made for the front of a motor and use a disc brake
> caliper setup for a lawn tractor.  They are about 5 inches in diameter and clamp using a cable.
> I have also seen instances where people modify a disc brake to mount on the snout of the axle
> pinion and actuate with a cable.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Brandt
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 18:44
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Better Emergency Brake
>
> Hi, Mark.  I think the problem is that disc calipers take a bunch of pressure to actuate, so the
> parking brake cable only works so-so.  It is also this way on my Fiero.  We'll have to wait and
> see how well the wilwood brakes John W. is going to use work.
>
> If you are looking to upgrade, check out the rear disc brakes from a late 80's-early 90'2
> daytona or laser.  They had a small drum brake on the back just for the parking brake, and a
> main disc that only activated under the hydraulic pressure.
>  
>
>
>
>
> David Brandt
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Mark Hanson <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Thursday, August 9, 2007 1:52:15 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] Better Emergency Brake
>
>
> Hi,
>
> With the usual problemn of an EV gaining weight and still wanting braking safety, I'm curious if
> there is a good way to get better emergency braking.  
> It seams like on a rear disc brake, the emergency brake handle just slows the vehicle down.
> This is what happens on my E-Porsche and our diesel Beetle with rear disc brakes.  I remember
> with my Electro-Metro which had
> *drum* rear brakes, I could lock up the rear wheels with the emergency brake handle.
>
> Is there a way to improve emergency braking if the main brakes fail?  Or is that just an
> inherent problem with rear disc brakes?
>
> have a renewable energy day,
> Mark
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Messenger Café - open for fun 24/7. Hot games, cool activities served daily.
> Visit now. http://cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_AugHMtagline
>
>
>        
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get
> online.
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting 
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Re: Better Emergency Brake

Zeke Yewdall
reminds me of the story of an old dumptruck a friend had with a two
speed vacuum shifted rear axle.  The parking brake was on the
driveshaft like it is on many old trucks.  If it was parked and sat
for a while, the vacuum would leak down and the rear axle would fall
in between the two speeds, and it would start rolling....

I've also had a car move on ice even though the parking brake was
directly on the wheel -- both rear wheels were on ice so even though
the fronts had good traction (to back up the hill into the parking
spot), it skittered right back on the road after setting the parking
brake and releasing the brake pedal.

On 8/10/07, Dave Cover <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Don't forget, any brake on the motor or drive shaft is not safe if there is a differential between
> the brake and the tires. If one wheel looses traction (resting on sand, ice, etc.) the vehicle can
> roll.
>
> Dave Cover
>
> --- "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > You could have another taperlock adapter made for the front of a motor and use a disc brake
> > caliper setup for a lawn tractor.  They are about 5 inches in diameter and clamp using a cable.
> > I have also seen instances where people modify a disc brake to mount on the snout of the axle
> > pinion and actuate with a cable.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Brandt
> > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 18:44
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Better Emergency Brake
> >
> > Hi, Mark.  I think the problem is that disc calipers take a bunch of pressure to actuate, so the
> > parking brake cable only works so-so.  It is also this way on my Fiero.  We'll have to wait and
> > see how well the wilwood brakes John W. is going to use work.
> >
> > If you are looking to upgrade, check out the rear disc brakes from a late 80's-early 90'2
> > daytona or laser.  They had a small drum brake on the back just for the parking brake, and a
> > main disc that only activated under the hydraulic pressure.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > David Brandt
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Mark Hanson <[hidden email]>
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Sent: Thursday, August 9, 2007 1:52:15 PM
> > Subject: [EVDL] Better Emergency Brake
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > With the usual problemn of an EV gaining weight and still wanting braking safety, I'm curious if
> > there is a good way to get better emergency braking.
> > It seams like on a rear disc brake, the emergency brake handle just slows the vehicle down.
> > This is what happens on my E-Porsche and our diesel Beetle with rear disc brakes.  I remember
> > with my Electro-Metro which had
> > *drum* rear brakes, I could lock up the rear wheels with the emergency brake handle.
> >
> > Is there a way to improve emergency braking if the main brakes fail?  Or is that just an
> > inherent problem with rear disc brakes?
> >
> > have a renewable energy day,
> > Mark
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Messenger Café - open for fun 24/7. Hot games, cool activities served daily.
> > Visit now. http://cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_AugHMtagline
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________________________________________________________________________________
> > Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get
> > online.
> > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
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Re: Better Emergency Brake

Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
In reply to this post by Dave Cover
Not necessarily.  That theory definitely holds true if the differential is an open carrier.  If it is a locker or a posi then it will hold just fine.  You also get the added benefit of a pinion brake of the multiplication the ring and pinion assembly provides.  Pinion brakes are much more powerful than a drum brake assembly.  That is why you see them used a lot in the monster truck world.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dave Cover
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 9:46
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Better Emergency Brake

Don't forget, any brake on the motor or drive shaft is not safe if there is a differential between the brake and the tires. If one wheel looses traction (resting on sand, ice, etc.) the vehicle can roll.

Dave Cover

--- "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> You could have another taperlock adapter made for the front of a motor
> and use a disc brake caliper setup for a lawn tractor.  They are about 5 inches in diameter and clamp using a cable.
> I have also seen instances where people modify a disc brake to mount
> on the snout of the axle pinion and actuate with a cable.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of David Brandt
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 18:44
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Better Emergency Brake
>
> Hi, Mark.  I think the problem is that disc calipers take a bunch of
> pressure to actuate, so the parking brake cable only works so-so.  It
> is also this way on my Fiero.  We'll have to wait and see how well the wilwood brakes John W. is going to use work.
>
> If you are looking to upgrade, check out the rear disc brakes from a
> late 80's-early 90'2 daytona or laser.  They had a small drum brake on
> the back just for the parking brake, and a main disc that only activated under the hydraulic pressure.
>  
>
>
>
>
> David Brandt
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Mark Hanson <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Thursday, August 9, 2007 1:52:15 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] Better Emergency Brake
>
>
> Hi,
>
> With the usual problemn of an EV gaining weight and still wanting
> braking safety, I'm curious if there is a good way to get better emergency braking.
> It seams like on a rear disc brake, the emergency brake handle just slows the vehicle down.
> This is what happens on my E-Porsche and our diesel Beetle with rear
> disc brakes.  I remember with my Electro-Metro which had
> *drum* rear brakes, I could lock up the rear wheels with the emergency brake handle.
>
> Is there a way to improve emergency braking if the main brakes fail?  
> Or is that just an inherent problem with rear disc brakes?
>
> have a renewable energy day,
> Mark
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Messenger Café - open for fun 24/7. Hot games, cool activities served daily.
> Visit now. http://cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_AugHMtagline
>
>
>        
> ______________________________________________________________________
> ______________ Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small
> Business gives you all the tools to get online.
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting
>
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Re: Better Emergency Brake

Dave Cover
Don't lockup differentials rely on the power delivered to lock up. I know if I have a rear wheel
off the ground with my truck, I can spin it by hand, and it does have a locking differential. Same
with my 944. Relying on a lock up differential to hold your car doesn't seem safe. And how many
vehicles have this feature? Probably less than you think.

--- "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Not necessarily.  That theory definitely holds true if the differential is an open carrier.  If
> it is a locker or a posi then it will hold just fine.  You also get the added benefit of a
> pinion brake of the multiplication the ring and pinion assembly provides.  Pinion brakes are
> much more powerful than a drum brake assembly.  That is why you see them used a lot in the
> monster truck world.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dave Cover
> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 9:46
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Better Emergency Brake
>
> Don't forget, any brake on the motor or drive shaft is not safe if there is a differential
> between the brake and the tires. If one wheel looses traction (resting on sand, ice, etc.) the
> vehicle can roll.
>
> Dave Cover
>
> --- "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > You could have another taperlock adapter made for the front of a motor
> > and use a disc brake caliper setup for a lawn tractor.  They are about 5 inches in diameter
> and clamp using a cable.
> > I have also seen instances where people modify a disc brake to mount
> > on the snout of the axle pinion and actuate with a cable.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> > Behalf Of David Brandt
> > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 18:44
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Better Emergency Brake
> >
> > Hi, Mark.  I think the problem is that disc calipers take a bunch of
> > pressure to actuate, so the parking brake cable only works so-so.  It
> > is also this way on my Fiero.  We'll have to wait and see how well the wilwood brakes John W.
> is going to use work.
> >
> > If you are looking to upgrade, check out the rear disc brakes from a
> > late 80's-early 90'2 daytona or laser.  They had a small drum brake on
> > the back just for the parking brake, and a main disc that only activated under the hydraulic
> pressure.
> >  
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > David Brandt
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Mark Hanson <[hidden email]>
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Sent: Thursday, August 9, 2007 1:52:15 PM
> > Subject: [EVDL] Better Emergency Brake
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > With the usual problemn of an EV gaining weight and still wanting
> > braking safety, I'm curious if there is a good way to get better emergency braking.
> > It seams like on a rear disc brake, the emergency brake handle just slows the vehicle down.
> > This is what happens on my E-Porsche and our diesel Beetle with rear
> > disc brakes.  I remember with my Electro-Metro which had
> > *drum* rear brakes, I could lock up the rear wheels with the emergency brake handle.
> >
> > Is there a way to improve emergency braking if the main brakes fail?  
> > Or is that just an inherent problem with rear disc brakes?
> >
> > have a renewable energy day,
> > Mark
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Messenger Café - open for fun 24/7. Hot games, cool activities served daily.
> > Visit now. http://cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_AugHMtagline
> >
> >
> >        
> > ______________________________________________________________________
> > ______________ Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small
> > Business gives you all the tools to get online.
> > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
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> >
>
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Re: Better Emergency Brake

TrotFox Greyfoot
Dave,

It all depends on what variety of diff. you have.  A true locker will
usually have some variety of power to keep it locked.  However, if you
have a Torsen that's a whole different ball of wax.  Also, a
posi-track rear uses spring-loaded clutches instead of gears to get
the job done.

So the answer is... Maybe?

Trot, the never-simple, fox...

On 8/10/07, Dave Cover <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Don't lockup differentials rely on the power delivered to lock up. I know if I have a rear wheel
> off the ground with my truck, I can spin it by hand, and it does have a locking differential. Same
> with my 944. Relying on a lock up differential to hold your car doesn't seem safe. And how many
> vehicles have this feature? Probably less than you think.


--
|  /\_/\       TrotFox         \ Always remember,
| ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ "There is a
|  >\_/<       [hidden email]       \ third alternative."

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Re: Better Emergency Brake

Jeff Shanab
In reply to this post by Mark Hanson-2
I guess it depends on the vehicle. my 300zx won't move if i forget to
release the emergancy brake. (288V zilla 1k warp 9)
it will pick up the back end about 3 inches if I try. LOL

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Re: Better Emergency Brake

Jeff Shanab
In reply to this post by Mark Hanson-2
In my "ultimate" design, on the gear reducer is an adapted parking pawl.
The parking pawl was created to handle this exact problem.

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Re: Better Emergency Brake

Gerald Wagner
I have had an idea since I converted my '94 S-10 with the T-5 transmission
Maybe someone with trans knowledge can tell me if it is possible..

Since I don't use first gear at all, could a trans shop make first into a
"Park" gear.  ie. disconnect it from the drive gears and then lock it from
rotating.  I have retained the clutch so I could just put in first when I
park it.  Maybe lock out the 12 volt signal to the hairball when in "park".

Any thoughts?   Jerry

On 8/11/07, Jeff Shanab <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> In my "ultimate" design, on the gear reducer is an adapted parking pawl.
> The parking pawl was created to handle this exact problem.
>
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Re: Better Emergency Brake

James Massey
At 10:22 AM 11/08/07 -0500, Gerald Wagner wrote:
>I have had an idea since I converted my '94 S-10 with the T-5 transmission
>Maybe someone with trans knowledge can tell me if it is possible..
>
>Since I don't use first gear at all, could a trans shop make first into a
>"Park" gear.  ie. disconnect it from the drive gears and then lock it from
>rotating.  I have retained the clutch so I could just put in first when I
>park it.  Maybe lock out the 12 volt signal to the hairball when in "park".

G'day Jerry, and All

My company are local (Tasmania, Australia) service agents for "Linak"
(brand) electric actuators. What I've been thinking of is using a small
actuator in the following manner:

On a vehicle without a transmission, to use a motor that has a tail-end
shaft. Go to a lawnmower/motorcycle/etc service or wrecking place, and find
the smallest, lightest flywheel with ring gear. Attach that to the tail end
shaft of the motor (an ex-forklift motor may have a brake assembly ready to
use instead).

On a motor that keeps the original flywheel, lighten it as much as possible
without loosing the ring gear, or make it smaller and put a smaller ring
gear on.

In each case, you now have a set of teeth that are (provided that the
gearbox remains in gear and the clutch is not disengaged) locked to the
drive wheels. A spring-loaded pawl is pulled away from the teeth by the
electric actuator, and allowed against the teeth when put into 'park'
condition - if it doesn't go into mesh, the first movement will engage it
into mesh. It would be possible to put the pawl in through the side of a
gearbox, but if something went wrong it'd probably rip the side out of the
box. An alternative would be to use a tail-shaft hand brake assembly from a
small truck (also seen on forklifts and other vehicles). Use an actuator to
bring the mechanically operated brake on a lot harder than would be done by
hand.

I think of this issue each time park a vehicle facing up-hill, pull on the
handbrake a reasonable amount and then have the vehicle try and roll
backwards (lurch-clunk-jerk from the parking pawl engaging in an auto,
lurch from a manual transmission left in too high a gear). Automatic has a
park pawl, a manual transmission is helped by engine compression, but an EV
has to have something to compensate (pulling on the handbrake extra-hard so
herself has trouble letting it off is not a viable option).

The optimal way I can see of using such a system is on an EV that has
series/parallel switched motors and no gearbox - use an automatic
transmission control lever that makes the car behave similar to an auto -
park (pawl in), reverse, neutral drive (auto series/parallel switch) 2
(force parallel) and 1 (force series).

What thoughts?

Regards

[Technik] James

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Re: Better Emergency Brake

Gerald Wagner
Aha!  The flywheel starter gear is a great idea.  I just have to make a pawl
to engage it thru the starter hole.  Main concern is preventing it from
engaging by accident while the truck is moving.  Maybe have it actuate
mechanically with the parking brake mechanism?  Hmmm.

Thanks for some new ideas.   Jerry

On 8/11/07, James Massey <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> At 10:22 AM 11/08/07 -0500, Gerald Wagner wrote:
> >I have had an idea since I converted my '94 S-10 with the T-5
> transmission
> >Maybe someone with trans knowledge can tell me if it is possible..
> >
> >Since I don't use first gear at all, could a trans shop make first into a
> >"Park" gear.  ie. disconnect it from the drive gears and then lock it
> from
> >rotating.  I have retained the clutch so I could just put in first when I
> >park it.  Maybe lock out the 12 volt signal to the hairball when in
> "park".
>
> G'day Jerry, and All
>
> My company are local (Tasmania, Australia) service agents for "Linak"
> (brand) electric actuators. What I've been thinking of is using a small
> actuator in the following manner:
>
> On a vehicle without a transmission, to use a motor that has a tail-end
> shaft. Go to a lawnmower/motorcycle/etc service or wrecking place, and
> find
> the smallest, lightest flywheel with ring gear. Attach that to the tail
> end
> shaft of the motor (an ex-forklift motor may have a brake assembly ready
> to
> use instead).
>
> On a motor that keeps the original flywheel, lighten it as much as
> possible
> without loosing the ring gear, or make it smaller and put a smaller ring
> gear on.
>
> In each case, you now have a set of teeth that are (provided that the
> gearbox remains in gear and the clutch is not disengaged) locked to the
> drive wheels. A spring-loaded pawl is pulled away from the teeth by the
> electric actuator, and allowed against the teeth when put into 'park'
> condition - if it doesn't go into mesh, the first movement will engage it
> into mesh. It would be possible to put the pawl in through the side of a
> gearbox, but if something went wrong it'd probably rip the side out of the
> box. An alternative would be to use a tail-shaft hand brake assembly from
> a
> small truck (also seen on forklifts and other vehicles). Use an actuator
> to
> bring the mechanically operated brake on a lot harder than would be done
> by
> hand.
>
> I think of this issue each time park a vehicle facing up-hill, pull on the
> handbrake a reasonable amount and then have the vehicle try and roll
> backwards (lurch-clunk-jerk from the parking pawl engaging in an auto,
> lurch from a manual transmission left in too high a gear). Automatic has a
> park pawl, a manual transmission is helped by engine compression, but an
> EV
> has to have something to compensate (pulling on the handbrake extra-hard
> so
> herself has trouble letting it off is not a viable option).
>
> The optimal way I can see of using such a system is on an EV that has
> series/parallel switched motors and no gearbox - use an automatic
> transmission control lever that makes the car behave similar to an auto -
> park (pawl in), reverse, neutral drive (auto series/parallel switch) 2
> (force parallel) and 1 (force series).
>
> What thoughts?
>
> Regards
>
> [Technik] James
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
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12