Breakers

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Breakers

Willie McKemie
I just tried a single pole Airpax breaker and find it trips after only
a couple of seconds of about 400 amps.  Not really satisfactory for a
battery that can delivery about 800 amps continuously and a 1000 amp
controller.

Rather than add additional poles (space is tight) I'm thinking of just
dispensing with the breaker and relying on the internal contactors of
the EVNetics controller.

Perhaps the EVNetics guy will comment?

BTW, the EVNetics site:
http://evnetics.com
seems to have disappeared.

--
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  138 days  5 hours 26 minutes

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Re: Breakers

damon henry

I have a 1000 amp Logisystems controller. I also have an airpax breaker that I bought from Electo Automotive.  I have never experienced a nuissance trip with this setup, but it did break the circuit a few years back when running an Alltrax 72v 400 amp controller which failed shorted.  It's hard to simulate a failure, but in my case, when I did have a real failure it worked exactly as planned.  It worked so well, that I thought it might be a nuissance trip so I reset the breaker and turned my key on.  It tripped a second time as soon as the controller was connected and that is when I knew the controller was done.  The whole scenario was very unspectaculer which is exaclty what you are striving for :)  If I were you I would do what you need to do to keep the breaker.

 

damon
 

> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 11:36:16 -0500
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [EVDL] Breakers
>
> I just tried a single pole Airpax breaker and find it trips after only
> a couple of seconds of about 400 amps. Not really satisfactory for a
> battery that can delivery about 800 amps continuously and a 1000 amp
> controller.
>
> Rather than add additional poles (space is tight) I'm thinking of just
> dispensing with the breaker and relying on the internal contactors of
> the EVNetics controller.
>
> Perhaps the EVNetics guy will comment?
>
> BTW, the EVNetics site:
> http://evnetics.com
> seems to have disappeared.
>
> --
> Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
> http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
> Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 138 days 5 hours 26 minutes
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
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Re: Breakers

Wistar
In reply to this post by Willie McKemie
What is the model number of the AirPax Breaker?  Also what is your vehicle
and most demanding use?  There are many sizes and configurations with
various delay curves so a solution should be easy to put together.

Sincerely,

Wistar Rhoads
KTA Services, Inc.
www.kta-ev.com
20330 Rancho Villa Road
Ramona, CA 92065
760-787-0896
760-787-9437 (Fax)


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Willie McKemie
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 9:36 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Breakers

I just tried a single pole Airpax breaker and find it trips after only
a couple of seconds of about 400 amps.  Not really satisfactory for a
battery that can delivery about 800 amps continuously and a 1000 amp
controller.

Rather than add additional poles (space is tight) I'm thinking of just
dispensing with the breaker and relying on the internal contactors of
the EVNetics controller.

Perhaps the EVNetics guy will comment?

BTW, the EVNetics site:
http://evnetics.com
seems to have disappeared.

--
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  138 days  5 hours 26 minutes

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Re: Breakers

Roland Wiench
In reply to this post by Willie McKemie
How come your battery ampere is so high?  The motor ampere may be that high,
but the battery ampere should be lower.

For example on my 7200 lb EV battery ampere for all my city driving is from
5 to 50 amperage of speeds from 5 mph to 40 mph constant speed in a overall
gear ratio of 19:1 to 13:1

If I want to accelerated as fast as I can, the battery ampere gets up to 200
amps while the motor amperes gets up to 600 amps.

In final drive of 5.57:1 at speeds from 40 mph to 70 mph, my battery ampere
goes from 75 to just over 200 amperes and the motor amperage ranges from 200
amperes to 600 amperes.

I do not use a breaker, I have use a Bussman Limitron 400 amp fuse that has
a interrupting rating of 250,000 amperes.  I ran this fuse from 1975 to
2002.  In 2002, I change it out to a Bussman Semi Conductor 400 ampere fuse
that has a interrupting rating of 7000 amperes.

Roland




----- Original Message -----
From: "Willie McKemie" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 9:36 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Breakers


> I just tried a single pole Airpax breaker and find it trips after only
> a couple of seconds of about 400 amps.  Not really satisfactory for a
> battery that can delivery about 800 amps continuously and a 1000 amp
> controller.
>
> Rather than add additional poles (space is tight) I'm thinking of just
> dispensing with the breaker and relying on the internal contactors of
> the EVNetics controller.
>
> Perhaps the EVNetics guy will comment?
>
> BTW, the EVNetics site:
> http://evnetics.com
> seems to have disappeared.
>
> --
> Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
> http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
> Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  138 days  5 hours 26 minutes
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Re: Breakers

Willie McKemie
On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 10:41:54AM -0700, Roland Wiench wrote:
> How come your battery ampere is so high?  The motor ampere may be that high,
> but the battery ampere should be lower.

I dunno, Roland.  It seems reasonable to me.  My 260ah pack can cruise
for more than two hours at about 100 amps.  Though it cruises at 100
amps or less, hill climbing, accelerating, running the heat or AC or a
combination many times uses more than 400 amps.  Definitely battery
amps, my only indication of motor amps is through poking around in the
controller.

If you use significantly less current, perhaps your pack voltage is
significantly higher than my 144?

--
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  138 days  9 hours 24 minutes

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Re: Breakers

Jeffrey Jenkins
In reply to this post by Willie McKemie
Willie McKemie-3 wrote
I just tried a single pole Airpax breaker and find it trips after only
a couple of seconds of about 400 amps.  Not really satisfactory for a
battery that can delivery about 800 amps continuously and a 1000 amp
controller.

Rather than add additional poles (space is tight) I'm thinking of just
dispensing with the breaker and relying on the internal contactors of
the EVNetics controller.

Perhaps the EVNetics guy will comment?
Evnetics guy here... I agree with Wistar that you probably have an Airpax breaker with a rapid-trip curve (magnetic-hydraulic rather than thermal). This will be okay to use in an EV (as long as it has the proper DC voltage rating!) IF you rarely exceed the nameplate amp rating (and then by only 10-20%). Class-T fuses are probably a more appropriate protection device as there

And, speaking of... No, do not rely on the internal (or external) contactors as the sole means of protection - there should always be some form of external overcurrent protection.


Willie McKemie-3 wrote
BTW, the EVNetics site:
http://evnetics.com
seems to have disappeared.
Can you still not see it, because it seems to be working fine for me. We did re-do the site using a service called "Wix" (I think? Not really my area of expertise...) and a few people have report the same problem since then...

FWIW, the site address does have the leading www, but the DNS corrected it when I clicked on the link as you typed it.

-Jeff
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Re: Breakers

David Nelson-5
> Willie McKemie-3 wrote:
>>
>> BTW, the EVNetics site:
>> http://evnetics.com
>> seems to have disappeared.
>>
>
> Can you still not see it, because it seems to be working fine for me. We did
> re-do the site using a service called "Wix" (I think? Not really my area of
> expertise...) and a few people have report the same problem since then...
>
> -Jeff

Jeff,

FWIW, I can't read your site from my iPhone because it is written in
flash and apple doesn't allow any one to write flash for their
i-devices. I would think you would want some backup site in text mode.


--
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328

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Re: EvNetics site

John Lussmyer
On 7/27/2010 1:54 PM, David Nelson wrote:

>> Willie McKemie-3 wrote:
>>      
>>> BTW, the EVNetics site:
>>> http://evnetics.com
>>> seems to have disappeared.
>>>
>>>        
>> Can you still not see it, because it seems to be working fine for me. We did
>> re-do the site using a service called "Wix" (I think? Not really my area of
>> expertise...) and a few people have report the same problem since then...
>>
>> -Jeff
>>      
> Jeff,
>
> FWIW, I can't read your site from my iPhone because it is written in
> flash and apple doesn't allow any one to write flash for their
> i-devices. I would think you would want some backup site in text mode.
>    

Yeah, uses flash, and is designed to take forever to load initially.  
(Sucks down dozens of images that don't get displayed immediately.)
Looks like crap on browsers that have Flash disabled (like mine).

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Re: Breakers

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by David Nelson-5
Willie McKemie-3 wrote:
>>> the EVNetics site http://evnetics.com seems to have disappeared.

Jeff wrote:
>> We did re-do the site using a service called "Wix"... and a few
>> people have report the same problem since then...

Include me as one of those who has problems with the site. I use older
computers and software, and while the site still works (sort of), it is
so slow and buggy as to not be worth my time.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Re: Breakers

Willie McKemie
In reply to this post by Jeffrey Jenkins
On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 01:09:12PM -0700, Jeffrey Jenkins wrote:

> Willie McKemie-3 wrote:
> >
> > BTW, the EVNetics site:
> > http://evnetics.com
> > seems to have disappeared.
> >
>
> Can you still not see it, because it seems to be working fine for me. We did
> re-do the site using a service called "Wix" (I think? Not really my area of
> expertise...) and a few people have report the same problem since then...
>
> FWIW, the site address does have the leading www, but the DNS corrected it
> when I clicked on the link as you typed it.

I just followed an old bookmark link.  I did see "wix" and figured your
host was re-directing from a dead site.  Didn't wait long enough, I
guess.  Flash IS an abomination.  Favored by those who do not wish to
maximize their audience.


--
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  138 days 12 hours 28 minutes

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Re: Breakers

Jeffrey Jenkins
Your objections have been duly noted. We will hire someone to redo the website so you can once again access it with Netscape Navigator and Lynx from a DOS box!





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Re: Breakers

Curtis Keller
Love it.    It's been a long while since I've used Lynx.

On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 7:30 PM, Jeffrey Jenkins
<[hidden email]>wrote:

>
> Your objections have been duly noted. We will hire someone to redo the
> website so you can once again access it with Netscape Navigator and Lynx
> from a DOS box!
>
> --
Curtis Keller
[hidden email]
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Re: Breakers

EVDL Administrator
In reply to this post by Jeffrey Jenkins
On 27 Jul 2010 at 17:30, Jeffrey Jenkins wrote:

> We will hire someone to redo the website so you can once again access
> it with Netscape Navigator and Lynx from a DOS box!

I know you're joking, but with the already-limited appeal of EVs, I think
it's crucial to remove any obstacles to participation that you possibly can.
 

This list isn't about computers or good web design, but it IS about getting
more people into EVs.  Anything you can do to help is a good thing, in my
book.

And please remember that while the number of people actually using Lynx is
probably vanishingly small, many folks who aren't computer savvy will be
running software versions that may well be 3-4 years old.  I know several
people who reflexively say NO when prompted to upgrade software, fearing
malware.  

Good web design (aargh, there's that term) suggests websites that degrade
fairly gracefully with older browsers.  You never know when you'll get a
potential customer who's still using Netscape 4 or IE 5.  If this is someone
who is itching to convert to EV, I say don't send him away.  I think such a
person ought to be able to see at least something, so he can start learning.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: Breakers

Willie McKemie
In reply to this post by Jeffrey Jenkins
On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 05:30:57PM -0700, Jeffrey Jenkins wrote:
>
> Your objections have been duly noted. We will hire someone to redo the
> website so you can once again access it with Netscape Navigator and Lynx
> from a DOS box!

Best to have not hired someone to screw it up in the first place :-)

I use the latest Firefox (3.something) on several of my boxes.  I STILL
avoid using flash with the addon flash-block.  I do some browsing with
older software that is troublesome to "upgrade" for the use of flash.  
Flash is, for the most part, pointless and inefficient BS.  IMHO.

One major attraction of your controller is it's web server
configuration.  Configurable with most any browser under most any
operating system.  Kudos.  Please don't consider "upgrading" it to use
flash!  Now that you bring it up, I will, at next opportunity, see if
your controller's web server works well with lynx and w3m.

--
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  139 days  1 hours 22 minutes

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Re: Breakers

Jeffrey Jenkins
EVDL Administrator wrote
Good web design (aargh, there's that term) suggests websites that degrade
fairly gracefully with older browsers.
You are entirely correct, it's just that making a website degrade gracefully seems to require knowing HTML inside and out; sadly, none of us at Evnetics possess this knowledge (and even if we did we probably wouldn't have the time to employ it anyway). It was our mechanical engineer who took it upon himself to re-do our website several months ago in his "spare time"; something that was possible only because Wix made it very quick and easy!


Willie McKemie-3 wrote
On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 05:30:57PM -0700, Jeffrey Jenkins wrote:
>
> Your objections have been duly noted. We will hire someone to redo the
> website so you can once again access it with Netscape Navigator and Lynx
> from a DOS box!

Best to have not hired someone to screw it up in the first place :-)
We didn't hire anyone; see above... ;)

That said, we will now be hiring someone to redo our site... yet again. We are very concerned about being able to make changes and updates to the content ourselves, though, and that is often a difficult thing to get in an outsourced website design. Our managing partner's outsourced the website design for his main business, Techno-Solis, and has not been pleased at all with the process. Wix made it easy for us to do the website ourselves, but if it makes it so that people with iPhones can't see it, that's not so good (sorry, Willie, but thinking Flash is an evil abomination wasn't a good enough reason :D )

Guys - please try to keep in mind that Evnetics is a *small* business. We aren't yet profitable (though we are getting there) so we must deploy our capital carefully. For example, do we hire someone to design a website for us or do we buy a used pick-and-place machine to speed up board manufacturing? When it comes to decisions like that, we tend to choose anything but "hire someone to design a website for us" every time. What can I say, we are more interested in making products, and developing new ones, than... uh.... a flashy web site. Double entendre intended.

-Jeff
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Re: Breakers

Grant T. Schaefer
Content management systems like Xoops <http://www.xoops.org/> make it easy
to manage you content and are fairly easy to set up.

I kinda like your site.



Grant
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Re: Breakers

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator
Jeffrey Jenkins wrote:
>> We will hire someone to redo the website so you can once again access
>> it with Netscape Navigator and Lynx from a DOS box!

David Roden wrote:
> I know you're joking, but with the already-limited appeal of EVs, I think
> it's crucial to remove any obstacles to participation that you possibly can.

I agree. I'm having trouble with a 1 GHz Pentium III running Win2k with
the Firefox browser on a DSL connection. It won't work at all with my
older 300 MHz Pentium II and Win98.

Nor would it work for anyone restricted to dial-up. According to the the
latest statistics (June 2009), 74% of US residents are internet users
(227,719,000 people). 89% of these users have access to high speed
internet access via phone or cable providers. That means 25 million
users are restricted to dial-up or other slow connections. That's a lot
of people to ignore!

http://www.internetworldstats.com/am/us.htm
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Re: Breakers

damon henry

Ok, enough of the whining everyone.  You want the whole world to change the way they transport themselves around by moving from petroleum to electricity, yet the internet should cater to comparitively stone age standards just so you don't have to buy a new computer or upgrade a browser?  Give me a break.
 
I personally have no problems with the way their website is setup.  Feel free to leave it the way it is as far as I'm concerned.  Continue to focus on your great controllers and anyone who really wants to get to the site will.  Redoing your website so people can see it on their iPhone is going to sell exactly 0 more controllers for you.  I was talking to "Mrs." Husted at the track Friday night and she mentioned specifically how pleased her husband Jim and his partner Eric were with how well you treat them as a distributor.  That's the right approach and where you are likely to make money, not from these looky loos with their iPhones.

damon
 

> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 10:30:52 -0500
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Breakers
>
> Jeffrey Jenkins wrote:
> >> We will hire someone to redo the website so you can once again access
> >> it with Netscape Navigator and Lynx from a DOS box!
>
> David Roden wrote:
> > I know you're joking, but with the already-limited appeal of EVs, I think
> > it's crucial to remove any obstacles to participation that you possibly can.
>
> I agree. I'm having trouble with a 1 GHz Pentium III running Win2k with
> the Firefox browser on a DSL connection. It won't work at all with my
> older 300 MHz Pentium II and Win98.
>
> Nor would it work for anyone restricted to dial-up. According to the the
> latest statistics (June 2009), 74% of US residents are internet users
> (227,719,000 people). 89% of these users have access to high speed
> internet access via phone or cable providers. That means 25 million
> users are restricted to dial-up or other slow connections. That's a lot
> of people to ignore!
>
> http://www.internetworldstats.com/am/us.htm
> --
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
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Re: Breakers

Collin Kidder
  On 7/28/2010 12:02 PM, damon henry wrote:
> Ok, enough of the whining everyone.  You want the whole world to change the way they transport themselves around by moving from petroleum to electricity, yet the internet should cater to comparitively stone age standards just so you don't have to buy a new computer or upgrade a browser?  Give me a break.
>
> I personally have no problems with the way their website is setup.  Feel free to leave it the way it is as far as I'm concerned.  Continue to focus on your great controllers and anyone who really wants to get to the site will.  Redoing your website so people can see it on their iPhone is going to sell exactly 0 more controllers for you.  I was talking to "Mrs." Husted at the track Friday night and she mentioned specifically how pleased her husband Jim and his partner Eric were with how well you treat them as a distributor.  That's the right approach and where you are likely to make money, not from these looky loos with their iPhones.
>
> damon
While your tone was a bit harsh I have to agree. It's not my problem or
yours or the web site owners that Apple have decided to not support
flash even though it's used everywhere. That's just a problem for people
silly enough to actually use iPhones. I don't have any such trouble
visiting flash sites on my Android phone. How's that walled garden
treating you iPhone users now? Weeds starting to appear?

I have nothing against flash. It's silly to hate it. It's got uses and
it's got abuses. It can be used as a platform agnostic web rendering
engine. Otherwise websites have to deal with the various
incompatibilities of IE and FF and Opera, etc, etc. There are downsides
to flash but blindly blocking all flash content is like shooting a
mosquito with a machine gun. The evnetics website looks very nice and I
don't care whether they used flash, HTML, or dead kittens. It looks great.

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Re: Breakers

Dave Davidson-3
It's not just the I-phone that has trouble with Flash.  Any cell phone
that does Internet, but is not a smart phone will have trouble. My
Samsung Eternity does not do Flash at all.  Many sites detect when
you're accessing with a cell phone and redirect you to a simply done
mobile site.  That's certainly a possibility.  Apple hates Flash, so
I-pods and I-pads also do not talk Flash.  However, the recent court
ruling allowing people to unlock their phones, etc. to install
"unauthorized" apps may mean that someone will soon write an app for
the I-stuff allowing it to play with Flash.

Dave

On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 12:21 PM, Collin Kidder <[hidden email]> wrote:

>  On 7/28/2010 12:02 PM, damon henry wrote:
>> Ok, enough of the whining everyone.  You want the whole world to change the way they transport themselves around by moving from petroleum to electricity, yet the internet should cater to comparitively stone age standards just so you don't have to buy a new computer or upgrade a browser?  Give me a break.
>>
>> I personally have no problems with the way their website is setup.  Feel free to leave it the way it is as far as I'm concerned.  Continue to focus on your great controllers and anyone who really wants to get to the site will.  Redoing your website so people can see it on their iPhone is going to sell exactly 0 more controllers for you.  I was talking to "Mrs." Husted at the track Friday night and she mentioned specifically how pleased her husband Jim and his partner Eric were with how well you treat them as a distributor.  That's the right approach and where you are likely to make money, not from these looky loos with their iPhones.
>>
>> damon
> While your tone was a bit harsh I have to agree. It's not my problem or
> yours or the web site owners that Apple have decided to not support
> flash even though it's used everywhere. That's just a problem for people
> silly enough to actually use iPhones. I don't have any such trouble
> visiting flash sites on my Android phone. How's that walled garden
> treating you iPhone users now? Weeds starting to appear?
>
> I have nothing against flash. It's silly to hate it. It's got uses and
> it's got abuses. It can be used as a platform agnostic web rendering
> engine. Otherwise websites have to deal with the various
> incompatibilities of IE and FF and Opera, etc, etc. There are downsides
> to flash but blindly blocking all flash content is like shooting a
> mosquito with a machine gun. The evnetics website looks very nice and I
> don't care whether they used flash, HTML, or dead kittens. It looks great.
>
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>

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