Bus Bar size

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Bus Bar size

John Lussmyer
So, I'm updating my F250 to use Nissan Leaf modules.  
3 modules in parallel, 40 sets in series.
Trying to figure out bus bar size I'll need.
Truck cruises at 60mph, at about 125A.  The 2 mile steep hill from the ferry will probably be more like 400A (possibly more.)
Would 3/16"x3/4" be big enough?

--
Tigers prowl and Dragons soar in my dreams...
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Re: Bus Bar size

Michael Ross
http://bit.ly/1jt7O7H

You will want the same or larger cross section.

It is probably better to think in terms of watts (Volt Amps) to be
dissipated.

You need to account for free or forced convection or insulated.

Expected temperature of surroundings makes a big difference.


On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 5:14 PM, John Lussmyer <[hidden email]>wrote:

> So, I'm updating my F250 to use Nissan Leaf modules.
> 3 modules in parallel, 40 sets in series.
> Trying to figure out bus bar size I'll need.
> Truck cruises at 60mph, at about 125A.  The 2 mile steep hill from the
> ferry will probably be more like 400A (possibly more.)
> Would 3/16"x3/4" be big enough?
>
> --
> Tigers prowl and Dragons soar in my dreams...
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>


--
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

[hidden email]
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Re: Bus Bar size

John Lussmyer
On Sun May 04 14:34:36 PDT 2014 [hidden email] said:
>http://bit.ly/1jt7O7H

Guess what, I alread knew how to do a Google search.

>You will want the same or larger cross section.

Than what?

>It is probably better to think in terms of watts (Volt Amps) to be
>dissipated.
>
>You need to account for free or forced convection or insulated.
>
>Expected temperature of surroundings makes a big difference.

Yup, and I don't actually know all that information.  I'm not a car manufacturer spending millions on engineering everything in advance.
I'm a hobbyiest, trying to come up with a reasonable size.

So, I've been leaning towards some 1/4" x 3/4", or 3/16" x 1".
For those who've worked with vehicles that draw the kinds of currents I've mentioned, does that seem reasonable?

>On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 5:14 PM, John Lussmyer <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
>> So, I'm updating my F250 to use Nissan Leaf modules.
>> 3 modules in parallel, 40 sets in series.
>> Trying to figure out bus bar size I'll need.
>> Truck cruises at 60mph, at about 125A.  The 2 mile steep hill from the
>> ferry will probably be more like 400A (possibly more.)
>> Would 3/16"x3/4" be big enough?


--

Worlds only All Electric F-250 truck! http://john.casadelgato.com/Electric-Vehicles/1995-Ford-F-250

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Re: Bus Bar size

Michael Ross
John,

Sorry that offended you.  It is an easy way to get a short link to a search
that is useful.


When you know the voltage you are going to run, you can determine the Volt
Amps or Watts. There is no answer without that bit of information or more
detail about other things.

As a rough cut you can look up the recommended bus bar for the volt amps.
 Then you may want to oversize it on general principle.  If it is in a
tight space with no free air around it, then you need to make it heavier.
 If it is insulated you want it to be heavier.

You will notice those charts usually quote a temperature for which they are
applicable.  The reason is they cannot support the same currents when hot.
 All your wiring needs the same careful thought.




On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 7:13 PM, John Lussmyer <[hidden email]>wrote:

> On Sun May 04 14:34:36 PDT 2014 [hidden email] said:
> >http://bit.ly/1jt7O7H
>
> Guess what, I alread knew how to do a Google search.
>
> >You will want the same or larger cross section.
>
> Than what?
>
> >It is probably better to think in terms of watts (Volt Amps) to be
> >dissipated.
> >
> >You need to account for free or forced convection or insulated.
> >
> >Expected temperature of surroundings makes a big difference.
>
> Yup, and I don't actually know all that information.  I'm not a car
> manufacturer spending millions on engineering everything in advance.
> I'm a hobbyiest, trying to come up with a reasonable size.
>
> So, I've been leaning towards some 1/4" x 3/4", or 3/16" x 1".
> For those who've worked with vehicles that draw the kinds of currents I've
> mentioned, does that seem reasonable?
>
> >On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 5:14 PM, John Lussmyer <[hidden email]
> >wrote:
> >
> >> So, I'm updating my F250 to use Nissan Leaf modules.
> >> 3 modules in parallel, 40 sets in series.
> >> Trying to figure out bus bar size I'll need.
> >> Truck cruises at 60mph, at about 125A.  The 2 mile steep hill from the
> >> ferry will probably be more like 400A (possibly more.)
> >> Would 3/16"x3/4" be big enough?
>
>
> --
>
> Worlds only All Electric F-250 truck!
> http://john.casadelgato.com/Electric-Vehicles/1995-Ford-F-250
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>


--
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

[hidden email]
<[hidden email]>
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Re: Bus Bar size

EV professor
Perhaps one could determine the cross section of the bus bar,  Many use 200
Amp. welding cable Large conductors cost money  but that causes no harm.
Saving money can result in overheating and melting...ask the bus bar sales
staff for a 400 ampere bus bar  and ask their competitor the same question
and compare the cross sectional areas (Which my be in "Circular Mills or
not... Four circular mills is 3.14 real square mills.
An alternative is household wiring wire as a single #8 conductor  is
suitable for 50 Amps and you could use three for the 125 amp. circuits and
eight strands for 400 amps, and they are relatively easy to form. I would
"Braze" them into a lug at each end with a torch and brass rod or silver
solder for strength after forming to exact shape and cover with orange
shrink tubing except at the ends, there, red is positive and black is
negative polarity. Most household wire comes with 600 volt insulation, but
you must be careful not to damage it.

*Dennis Lee Miles *

*Director   **E.V.T.I. Inc.*

*E-Mail:*  *[hidden email]* <[hidden email]>

   *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913*

Dade City, Florida 33523

 USA




On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 8:11 PM, Michael Ross <[hidden email]>wrote:

> John,
>
> Sorry that offended you.  It is an easy way to get a short link to a search
> that is useful.
>
>
> When you know the voltage you are going to run, you can determine the Volt
> Amps or Watts. There is no answer without that bit of information or more
> detail about other things.
>
> As a rough cut you can look up the recommended bus bar for the volt amps.
>  Then you may want to oversize it on general principle.  If it is in a
> tight space with no free air around it, then you need to make it heavier.
>  If it is insulated you want it to be heavier.
>
> You will notice those charts usually quote a temperature for which they are
> applicable.  The reason is they cannot support the same currents when hot.
>  All your wiring needs the same careful thought.
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 7:13 PM, John Lussmyer <[hidden email]
> >wrote:
>
> > On Sun May 04 14:34:36 PDT 2014 [hidden email] said:
> > >http://bit.ly/1jt7O7H
> >
> > Guess what, I alread knew how to do a Google search.
> >
> > >You will want the same or larger cross section.
> >
> > Than what?
> >
> > >It is probably better to think in terms of watts (Volt Amps) to be
> > >dissipated.
> > >
> > >You need to account for free or forced convection or insulated.
> > >
> > >Expected temperature of surroundings makes a big difference.
> >
> > Yup, and I don't actually know all that information.  I'm not a car
> > manufacturer spending millions on engineering everything in advance.
> > I'm a hobbyiest, trying to come up with a reasonable size.
> >
> > So, I've been leaning towards some 1/4" x 3/4", or 3/16" x 1".
> > For those who've worked with vehicles that draw the kinds of currents
> I've
> > mentioned, does that seem reasonable?
> >
> > >On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 5:14 PM, John Lussmyer <[hidden email]
> > >wrote:
> > >
> > >> So, I'm updating my F250 to use Nissan Leaf modules.
> > >> 3 modules in parallel, 40 sets in series.
> > >> Trying to figure out bus bar size I'll need.
> > >> Truck cruises at 60mph, at about 125A.  The 2 mile steep hill from the
> > >> ferry will probably be more like 400A (possibly more.)
> > >> Would 3/16"x3/4" be big enough?
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Worlds only All Electric F-250 truck!
> > http://john.casadelgato.com/Electric-Vehicles/1995-Ford-F-250
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
> happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
> *Dalai Lama *
>
> Tell me what it is you plan to do
> With your one wild and precious life?
> Mary Oliver, "The summer day."
>
> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
> Thomas A. Edison<
> http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>
>
> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
> *Warren Buffet*
>
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 550-2430 Land
> (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google
> Phone
> (919) 631-1451 Cell
> (919) 513-0418 Desk
>
> [hidden email]
> <[hidden email]>
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Re: Bus Bar size

a.swackhammer
In reply to this post by John Lussmyer
John,  How many do you need?  Al

----- Original Message -----

From: "Lussmyer, John" <[hidden email]>
To: "ev" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, May 4, 2014 2:14:47 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Bus Bar size

So, I'm updating my F250 to use Nissan Leaf modules.  
3 modules in parallel, 40 sets in series.
Trying to figure out bus bar size I'll need.
Truck cruises at 60mph, at about 125A.  The 2 mile steep hill from the ferry will probably be more like 400A (possibly more.)
Would 3/16"x3/4" be big enough?

--
Tigers prowl and Dragons soar in my dreams...
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Re: Bus Bar size

Roland Wiench
In reply to this post by John Lussmyer
The size of bus bar depends on the ambient temperature and length.  The plated copper bus bar I use for connecting a contactor, shunt and fuse together not more than 10 feet in length, 0.25 inch thick and 1 inch wide is rated for 400 amps at 90 C.

You will have to calculated the total length of all the buss bars you use in your installation.  It is best to use a 1.25 service factor of a conductor in a electrical circuit. Meaning 125 amp rated conductor for a 100 amp continuous load fuse at 125 amps.  

A 400 ampere conductor, can maintain a 300 amp continuous load fuse for 400 amps.

A 1/8 inch by 1 inch or a 3/16 inch by 3/4 inch copper bar is rated for 270 ampere.  At 1.25 service factor, this bar can handle 0.75 x 270 amp or 202 continuous ampere load fuse at 250 ampere which is the next closest fuse for 270 ampere conductor.

After I cut and drill the copper bars plated or non-plated, it is best to coat the copper bars with lead if using on a lead acid battery.  I use leading supplies from www.eastwood.com<http://www.eastwood.com/> which has tinning paste for lead.  Then cover the bar with heat shrink.

Roland

   
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: John Lussmyer<mailto:[hidden email]>
  To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:[hidden email]>
  Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 3:14 PM
  Subject: [EVDL] Bus Bar size


  So, I'm updating my F250 to use Nissan Leaf modules.  
  3 modules in parallel, 40 sets in series.
  Trying to figure out bus bar size I'll need.
  Truck cruises at 60mph, at about 125A.  The 2 mile steep hill from the ferry will probably be more like 400A (possibly more.)
  Would 3/16"x3/4" be big enough?

  --
  Tigers prowl and Dragons soar in my dreams...
  _______________________________________________
  UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub<http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub>
  http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org<http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org>
  For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA>)

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Re: Bus Bar size

Martin WINLOW
In reply to this post by John Lussmyer
That's over 100mm^2... yes! MW


On 4 May 2014, at 22:14, John Lussmyer wrote:

> So, I'm updating my F250 to use Nissan Leaf modules.  
> 3 modules in parallel, 40 sets in series.
> Trying to figure out bus bar size I'll need.
> Truck cruises at 60mph, at about 125A.  The 2 mile steep hill from the ferry will probably be more like 400A (possibly more.)
> Would 3/16"x3/4" be big enough?

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Re: Bus Bar size

Chris Tromley
In reply to this post by John Lussmyer
John,

1/8 x 3/4 would probably be enough.  That's almost the same cross-sectional
area as 2/0 cable, which handles 400A just fine.  3/16 x 3/4 would make you
plenty safe.

Those are generalities.  Your situation might dictate a different solution.
 If you're making a bazillion short jumper bars the length is
inconsequential in your calcs.  In that case, any more cross-sectional area
than the contact area of your posts is probably a waste.  You would also
want to make sure your modules are mechanically held together by some means
other than the bus bars.  I'm guessing the Leaf has them rigidly mounted
with respect to each other, with zero load on the posts.  If true you
should do the same.  If you don't, the modules will move around and cause
damage.  And of course you'll want to tin or solder-dip the bus bars.

If it was me I'd consider doing what Bill Dube did on Killacycle.  Lots of
short lengths of tinned braid.  Feed each end into a short length of copper
tube, swage flat and punch your bolt hole through the tube and braid.

Good luck,
Chris


On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 5:14 PM, John Lussmyer <[hidden email]>wrote:

> So, I'm updating my F250 to use Nissan Leaf modules.
> 3 modules in parallel, 40 sets in series.
> Trying to figure out bus bar size I'll need.
> Truck cruises at 60mph, at about 125A.  The 2 mile steep hill from the
> ferry will probably be more like 400A (possibly more.)
> Would 3/16"x3/4" be big enough?
>
> --
> Tigers prowl and Dragons soar in my dreams...
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
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Re: Bus Bar size

EcoReality
In reply to this post by John Lussmyer
> From: John Lussmyer <[hidden email]>
>
> The 2 mile steep hill from the ferry will probably be more like 400A (possibly more.)
> Would 3/16"x3/4" be big enough?

A commercial electric bus used 9" of #2/0 cable for bussing 180AH NiCd batteries. #2/0 has a cross-sectional area of 67.4 mm2.

3/16"x3/4" copper would have a cross-sectional area of 90.7 mm2. So, with 9" lengths, you should have better ampacity than that which designers chose for a commercial electric bus!

If you're "rolling your own," you might save a lot of money by using flattened copper pipe. 3/4" "Schedule M" pipe will have a cross-sectional area of 76.0 mm2 — greater than that of #2/0 wire, but less than your proposed bus bars. That's what I plan to use in my Vanagon conversion. I'll need no more than 4" sections, and you can generally pick those up at a scrap yard for $3-$4 a pound.

Note that copper pipe comes in three different wall thicknesses. Thickest is Schedule K, but it is rare. Do not use Schedule M, which has a cross-section of 53.8 mm2 for 3/4" pipe, about the same as #0 wire — too small for 400A.

Also, keep your busses as short as possible to reduce voltage drop. One foot of #4/0 (107 mm2) will have the same resistance as six inches of #0 (53.5 mm2).

:::: Private enterprise... makes OK private action which would be considered dishonest in public action. -- John F. Kennedy
:::: Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ::::

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Re: Bus Bar size

Steve Clunn-2
In reply to this post by John Lussmyer
> From: John Lussmyer <[hidden email]>
>
> The 2 mile steep hill from the ferry will probably be more like 400A (possibly more.)
> Would 3/16"x3/4" be big enough?

If you have three of these packs in parallel then the bars will only
be seeing 1/3 that amps , Can you tell us anything about where you got
these batteries / how much / where shipped from/ what bms you planing
on using?
--
Steve Clunn
Merging the best of the past with
the best of the future.
www.Greenshedconversions.com
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Re: Bus Bar size

John Lussmyer
Packs won't be in parallel, Modules will be.  So the busbars will be carrying the full current.

http://hybridautocenter.com/HAC4/index.php?option=com_hikashop&view=category&layout=listing&Itemid=605

Still not sure which BMS.  Might do another of my own (which I already have designed, just need to build some prototypes and test.)

On Tue May 06 06:10:28 PDT 2014 [hidden email] said:

>> From: John Lussmyer <[hidden email]>
>>
>> The 2 mile steep hill from the ferry will probably be more like 400A (possibly more.)
>> Would 3/16"x3/4" be big enough?
>
>If you have three of these packs in parallel then the bars will only
>be seeing 1/3 that amps , Can you tell us anything about where you got
>these batteries / how much / where shipped from/ what bms you planing
>on using?
>--
>Steve Clunn
>Merging the best of the past with
>the best of the future.
>www.Greenshedconversions.com


--

Worlds only All Electric F-250 truck! http://john.casadelgato.com/Electric-Vehicles/1995-Ford-F-250

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Re: Bus Bar size

corbin dunn
In reply to this post by John Lussmyer
Hi John,

Here's my post on this subject

http://www.corbinstreehouse.com/blog/2011/01/plug-bug-battery-bus-bars/

I am using 1/8" by 1" copper bar stock. Works fine to pull 500+amps through it. I regularly pull 300amps through it with no problem and no heat buildup.

corbin

On May 4, 2014, at 2:14 PM, John Lussmyer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> So, I'm updating my F250 to use Nissan Leaf modules.  
> 3 modules in parallel, 40 sets in series.
> Trying to figure out bus bar size I'll need.
> Truck cruises at 60mph, at about 125A.  The 2 mile steep hill from the ferry will probably be more like 400A (possibly more.)
> Would 3/16"x3/4" be big enough?
>
> --
> Tigers prowl and Dragons soar in my dreams...
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Re: Bus Bar size

Michael Ross
To no one in particular....

When I was designing switches we would get silver plating of copper to jump
the heat conduction ability of contactor plates (to which the contact
rivets were affixed).   You could rate the same switch to a higher standard
by plating heavier silver to it.   Just a thought if someone is working
where there is limited space. Who knows, a flash of silver might be less
costly than larger copper.  Ask you local plater.

There are also specific bus bar alloys of copper with a very small addition
of silver (fractional %).  Apparently this gives quite a jump up in
conductivity.


On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 12:59 PM, corbin dunn <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Hi John,
>
> Here's my post on this subject
>
> http://www.corbinstreehouse.com/blog/2011/01/plug-bug-battery-bus-bars/
>
> I am using 1/8" by 1" copper bar stock. Works fine to pull 500+amps
> through it. I regularly pull 300amps through it with no problem and no heat
> buildup.
>
> corbin
>
> On May 4, 2014, at 2:14 PM, John Lussmyer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > So, I'm updating my F250 to use Nissan Leaf modules.
> > 3 modules in parallel, 40 sets in series.
> > Trying to figure out bus bar size I'll need.
> > Truck cruises at 60mph, at about 125A.  The 2 mile steep hill from the
> ferry will probably be more like 400A (possibly more.)
> > Would 3/16"x3/4" be big enough?
> >
> > --
> > Tigers prowl and Dragons soar in my dreams...
> > _______________________________________________
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>


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