Calb battery issue

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Calb battery issue

Ben Jarrett-2


Hey folks,

Well, I've got 1800 miles on my Jeep.  Most things are working fine, except I started
getting a low voltage warning on 1 cell under moderate acceleration.  If I start
to draw about 250 battery amps, I have one cell that drops to 2.4V (other cells stay
above 2.6V).  This causes my mini bms to fire a warning.  Previously, I only got
a low voltage warning when drawing close to 400 battery amps.

I know someone who says they'll test this battery for me.  I emailed Keegan at Calb
and he redirected me to a gentleman named Ted.  I'm bummed because it's probably gonna
take me a while to resolve this.  Meantime, my Jeep is down and the weather is beautiful.
I could bypass the "bad" battery, but that would make the other cells have to work harder
and my charger is an Elcon and not easy to re-program, but I could rely on the mini-bms
to shut things off.

I really want to be a proponent of electric cars - but this is making it hard.  Having
a long turn around on repairs is a major bummer.   Maybe I should have gotten spare batteries.

Folks are asking me about my Jeep and I'm trying to save face.  I really hate to say that
I might have a battery issue.

Once I get the battery test results back (the person is gonna test one good battery
and my "bad" battery), I'll be able to have a better recommendation for/against Calb
(both the batteries and the support).

My batteries are 130 Ah and I limited the battery current to 400 amps.  I only drive
on the highway for about 5 minutes, otherwise, I do around town driving.  Battery
current tends to stay between 100-200 amps except on the freeway.


-ben
www.evalbum.com/4001



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Re: Calb battery issue

Ruckus
Hi Ben,
My first question is regarding the initial balancing procedure of the
cells.  What was done?  Even with a bms the first charge must be monitored
closely as the cells will not start out balanced.  Under full charge
amperage it is easy for a cell protection unit to be overwhelmed and drive
the cell too high.  Once they are reasonably balanced this won't happen,
but it can happen the first couple of charges.  Are you aware of any
overcharge events.

Second, there is the possibility that the Elcon/Chinoz/Chennic is set a bit
low.  You would get up to "average" and a few of the cells would be "full",
but there would also be some cells that are not full.  Again, this comes
down to how well the pack was balanced at the beginning.  Have all of the
cell shunt lights come on?

Lastly, there IS the possibility of a bad cell.  Whether this is a factory
defect or was caused by over/under charge could be a mystery.  I guess this
is a good argument for everyone getting a powerlab 8 and cycling every
battery prior to use.  This lets you know the starting capacity of every
battery.  Then, if you have a mystery problem such as you have, then you
can retest the cell and see if there has been some capacity loss.

Sorry, none of this helps your situation.  I would bypass the cell.  Watch
the end of the next charge cycle closely.  New cells are not hard to get,
so you should be ok even if it's a bad cell.  But knowing the cause would
be nice.

Good luck,
Marcus

On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Ben Jarrett <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> Hey folks,
>
> Well, I've got 1800 miles on my Jeep.  Most things are working fine,
> except I started
> getting a low voltage warning on 1 cell under moderate acceleration.  If I
> start
> to draw about 250 battery amps, I have one cell that drops to 2.4V (other
> cells stay
> above 2.6V).  This causes my mini bms to fire a warning.  Previously, I
> only got
> a low voltage warning when drawing close to 400 battery amps.
>
> I know someone who says they'll test this battery for me.  I emailed
> Keegan at Calb
> and he redirected me to a gentleman named Ted.  I'm bummed because it's
> probably gonna
> take me a while to resolve this.  Meantime, my Jeep is down and the
> weather is beautiful.
> I could bypass the "bad" battery, but that would make the other cells have
> to work harder
> and my charger is an Elcon and not easy to re-program, but I could rely on
> the mini-bms
> to shut things off.
>
> I really want to be a proponent of electric cars - but this is making it
> hard.  Having
> a long turn around on repairs is a major bummer.   Maybe I should have
> gotten spare batteries.
>
> Folks are asking me about my Jeep and I'm trying to save face.  I really
> hate to say that
> I might have a battery issue.
>
> Once I get the battery test results back (the person is gonna test one
> good battery
> and my "bad" battery), I'll be able to have a better recommendation
> for/against Calb
> (both the batteries and the support).
>
> My batteries are 130 Ah and I limited the battery current to 400 amps.  I
> only drive
> on the highway for about 5 minutes, otherwise, I do around town driving.
>  Battery
> current tends to stay between 100-200 amps except on the freeway.
>
>
> -ben
> www.evalbum.com/4001
>
>
>
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> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
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--
Marcus Reddish

*North Valley Systems LLC*
Stevensville, Montana
406-360-8628
northvalleyev.com
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Re: Calb battery issue

Ben Jarrett-2
In reply to this post by Ben Jarrett-2


I should have mentioned...

I top balanced a few months ago.  I haven't checked to see if the red light on the bms
board for this cell turns on or now.  

I currently get this low voltage alert whether my pack is at 50% SOC or 80% SOC.

And thanks for the info, comments - I appreciate any feedback I can get.

-ben
www.evalbum.com/4001



On Nov 6, 2012, at 3:19 PM, Ben Jarrett <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> Hey folks,
>
> Well, I've got 1800 miles on my Jeep.  Most things are working fine, except I started
> getting a low voltage warning on 1 cell under moderate acceleration.  If I start
> to draw about 250 battery amps, I have one cell that drops to 2.4V (other cells stay
> above 2.6V).  This causes my mini bms to fire a warning.  Previously, I only got
> a low voltage warning when drawing close to 400 battery amps.
>
> I know someone who says they'll test this battery for me.  I emailed Keegan at Calb
> and he redirected me to a gentleman named Ted.  I'm bummed because it's probably gonna
> take me a while to resolve this.  Meantime, my Jeep is down and the weather is beautiful.
> I could bypass the "bad" battery, but that would make the other cells have to work harder
> and my charger is an Elcon and not easy to re-program, but I could rely on the mini-bms
> to shut things off.
>
> I really want to be a proponent of electric cars - but this is making it hard.  Having
> a long turn around on repairs is a major bummer.   Maybe I should have gotten spare batteries.
>
> Folks are asking me about my Jeep and I'm trying to save face.  I really hate to say that
> I might have a battery issue.
>
> Once I get the battery test results back (the person is gonna test one good battery
> and my "bad" battery), I'll be able to have a better recommendation for/against Calb
> (both the batteries and the support).
>
> My batteries are 130 Ah and I limited the battery current to 400 amps.  I only drive
> on the highway for about 5 minutes, otherwise, I do around town driving.  Battery
> current tends to stay between 100-200 amps except on the freeway.
>
>
> -ben
> www.evalbum.com/4001
>
>
>
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> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
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|
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Re: Calb battery issue

Ruckus
If the cell is full when you charge (check with digital volt meter) and
still goes low under load then it is toast and needs to be pulled.

On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 3:32 PM, Ben Jarrett <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> I should have mentioned...
>
> I top balanced a few months ago.  I haven't checked to see if the red
> light on the bms
> board for this cell turns on or now.
>
> I currently get this low voltage alert whether my pack is at 50% SOC or
> 80% SOC.
>
> And thanks for the info, comments - I appreciate any feedback I can get.
>
> -ben
> www.evalbum.com/4001
>
>
>
> On Nov 6, 2012, at 3:19 PM, Ben Jarrett <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Hey folks,
> >
> > Well, I've got 1800 miles on my Jeep.  Most things are working fine,
> except I started
> > getting a low voltage warning on 1 cell under moderate acceleration.  If
> I start
> > to draw about 250 battery amps, I have one cell that drops to 2.4V
> (other cells stay
> > above 2.6V).  This causes my mini bms to fire a warning.  Previously, I
> only got
> > a low voltage warning when drawing close to 400 battery amps.
> >
> > I know someone who says they'll test this battery for me.  I emailed
> Keegan at Calb
> > and he redirected me to a gentleman named Ted.  I'm bummed because it's
> probably gonna
> > take me a while to resolve this.  Meantime, my Jeep is down and the
> weather is beautiful.
> > I could bypass the "bad" battery, but that would make the other cells
> have to work harder
> > and my charger is an Elcon and not easy to re-program, but I could rely
> on the mini-bms
> > to shut things off.
> >
> > I really want to be a proponent of electric cars - but this is making it
> hard.  Having
> > a long turn around on repairs is a major bummer.   Maybe I should have
> gotten spare batteries.
> >
> > Folks are asking me about my Jeep and I'm trying to save face.  I really
> hate to say that
> > I might have a battery issue.
> >
> > Once I get the battery test results back (the person is gonna test one
> good battery
> > and my "bad" battery), I'll be able to have a better recommendation
> for/against Calb
> > (both the batteries and the support).
> >
> > My batteries are 130 Ah and I limited the battery current to 400 amps.
>  I only drive
> > on the highway for about 5 minutes, otherwise, I do around town driving.
>  Battery
> > current tends to stay between 100-200 amps except on the freeway.
> >
> >
> > -ben
> > www.evalbum.com/4001
> >
> >
> >
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> > | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
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--
Marcus Reddish

*North Valley Systems LLC*
Stevensville, Montana
406-360-8628
northvalleyev.com
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Re: Calb battery issue

David Ladd
In reply to this post by Ben Jarrett-2
Hi Ben,

I have the same blue CALB 130ah cells, and have some cells that do the same thing you are seeing.  FWIW, I've seen this behavior for a year now.  That is, I have a few cells that drop to ~2.4v under moderate load (300-500a depending on the temperature) while the other cells stay above 2.7v.  I know this because I've got a Celllog8s to monitor stuff.

I confess, my solution has been to ignore the low voltage alarm :-).  In my way of thinking, I know which cells are bad, they don't seem to be getting any worse, and I don't see how a few weak cells in a series string can hurt the other good cells.  My longer term solution is that I just ordered 12 more cells from Keegan.  I'm going to replace my three worse in my pack, and add 9 more to the string so I have 57 total.

In my case I can't specifically speak to initial balancing since I bought the cells used, but I do have a high degree of trust in the seller that he did in fact top balance them to 3.6v with a power supply prior to installing in the car with MiniBMS.  I have no reason to believe they were ever abused in any way.  Most of the cells test out fine (130+ ah, less than .7mohm ir).  A few have higher ir's, up in the 1.0-1.1 range, and lower capacities of 120ah or so.  Those are of course the cells that sag badly.  I know these numbers because I cycled all of my cells with a powerlab 6 earlier this year.

So I don't really have any answers for you, except to say I don't think you have to stop driving it just because there is a weak cell.  It won't hurt the rest of them.

ps., these blue 130ah cells are no longer being made, if you want to buy spares you should do it sooner rather than later.

david.
http://www.evalbum.com/4021




>________________________________
> From: Ben Jarrett <[hidden email]>
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
>Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2012 1:19 PM
>Subject: [EVDL] Calb battery issue
>
>
>
>Hey folks,
>
>Well, I've got 1800 miles on my Jeep.  Most things are working fine, except I started
>getting a low voltage warning on 1 cell under moderate acceleration.  If I start
>to draw about 250 battery amps, I have one cell that drops to 2.4V (other cells stay
>above 2.6V).  This causes my mini bms to fire a warning.  Previously, I only got
>a low voltage warning when drawing close to 400 battery amps.
>
>I know someone who says they'll test this battery for me.  I emailed Keegan at Calb
>and he redirected me to a gentleman named Ted.  I'm bummed because it's probably gonna
>take me a while to resolve this.  Meantime, my Jeep is down and the weather is beautiful.
>I could bypass the "bad" battery, but that would make the other cells have to work harder
>and my charger is an Elcon and not easy to re-program, but I could rely on the mini-bms
>to shut things off.
>
>I really want to be a proponent of electric cars - but this is making it hard.  Having
>a long turn around on repairs is a major bummer.   Maybe I should have gotten spare batteries.
>
>Folks are asking me about my Jeep and I'm trying to save face.  I really hate to say that
>I might have a battery issue.
>
>Once I get the battery test results back (the person is gonna test one good battery
>and my "bad" battery), I'll be able to have a better recommendation for/against Calb
>(both the batteries and the support).
>
>My batteries are 130 Ah and I limited the battery current to 400 amps.  I only drive
>on the highway for about 5 minutes, otherwise, I do around town driving.  Battery
>current tends to stay between 100-200 amps except on the freeway.
>
>
>-ben
>www.evalbum.com/4001
>

_______________________________________________
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|
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Re: Calb battery issue

Bill Dube
In reply to this post by Ben Jarrett-2
Might possibly be a high resistance connection at the terminal for
that particular cell. Look for signs of overheating at the bolts,
etc. I have seen the symptoms you describe when the battery posts had
a touch of corrosion on them.

It is worth the effort to remove the bolts and connections on the
troublesome cell, then sand the posts bright and clean, as well as
all the connections. Next, put a thin coating of NoAlOx on all the
surfaces and reassemble. Could fix the problem.

The fact that the low voltage happens over a wide range of SOC says
that it is possible that a connection might be the cause. Still could
be an internal problem with the cell, of course.

Bill D.

At 02:19 PM 11/6/2012, you wrote:


>Hey folks,
>
>Well, I've got 1800 miles on my Jeep.  Most things are working fine,
>except I started
>getting a low voltage warning on 1 cell under moderate
>acceleration.  If I start
>to draw about 250 battery amps, I have one cell that drops to 2.4V
>(other cells stay
>above 2.6V).  This causes my mini bms to fire a
>warning.  Previously, I only got
>a low voltage warning when drawing close to 400 battery amps.
>
>I know someone who says they'll test this battery for me.  I emailed
>Keegan at Calb
>and he redirected me to a gentleman named Ted.  I'm bummed because
>it's probably gonna
>take me a while to resolve this.  Meantime, my Jeep is down and the
>weather is beautiful.
>I could bypass the "bad" battery, but that would make the other
>cells have to work harder
>and my charger is an Elcon and not easy to re-program, but I could
>rely on the mini-bms
>to shut things off.
>
>I really want to be a proponent of electric cars - but this is
>making it hard.  Having
>a long turn around on repairs is a major bummer.   Maybe I should
>have gotten spare batteries.
>
>Folks are asking me about my Jeep and I'm trying to save face.  I
>really hate to say that
>I might have a battery issue.
>
>Once I get the battery test results back (the person is gonna test
>one good battery
>and my "bad" battery), I'll be able to have a better recommendation
>for/against Calb
>(both the batteries and the support).
>
>My batteries are 130 Ah and I limited the battery current to 400
>amps.  I only drive
>on the highway for about 5 minutes, otherwise, I do around town
>driving.  Battery
>current tends to stay between 100-200 amps except on the freeway.
>
>
>-ben
>www.evalbum.com/4001
>
>
>
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Re: Calb battery issue

Elithion
In reply to this post by Ben Jarrett-2
While it is possible that a cell has gone bad all on its own, I must say that in our experience the cause is more likely to be that the BMS did not protect the pack, because it wasn't wired to shut down the load, directly.
That happens in two scenarios:
 1) the BMS is not designed to shut down the load; or
 2) the BMS is designed correctly, but the user did not install it properly.
In your case I believe it's #1.

I mention this because, even after you replace the bad cell, you're likely to see the same problem again, because your BMS does not shut down the load directly, and instead simply rings a buzzer.
Consequently, it is possible that once or twice that particular cell was low, the MiniBMS warned you, you didn't hear the buzzer and kept on driving, the voltage of that cell was reduced below its minimum safe voltage, and the cell was damaged, in the form of high internal resistance. Consequently, as time went by, that cell voltage sagged more than the others under acceleration, making it even more prone to damage from low voltage.

If that is indeed what happened, the same thing will probably happen again, after you replace the bad cell.
Davide Andrea
Elithion
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Re: Calb battery issue

Ben Jarrett-2


OK, so let's say the BMS warns me when the cell drops below 2.6V.  
Will damage be done to the cell if this is ignored and the driver
continues to accelerate causing the voltage to sag to something like 2.3V?

I do have the mini low voltage alert wired to my Soliton.  The system
does seem to respond, but a bit slowly.

Here's one thing I find interesting.  If you check out EVnetics controller pdf:
http://www.evnetics.com/downloads/Soliton_Manual_1v4_rev2.pdf

On page 13, there are 2 fields:
1. minimum voltage at no curret
2. minimum voltage at full current

For #1, they have 150V
For #2, they have 100V.

Now I realize this may just be an example, but if the cells were CALB cells,
you would have 150 / 2.6 = ~58 cells.
100 / 58 cells = 1.72V.

1.72 would be pretty low.  If 2.6V per cell is the minimum for no load for CALBs,
I wonder what a good full load voltage is.



-ben
www.evalbum.com/4001



On Nov 6, 2012, at 5:33 PM, Elithion <[hidden email]> wrote:

> While it is possible that a cell has gone bad all on its own, I must say that
> in our experience the cause is more likely to be that the BMS did not
> protect the pack, because it wasn't wired to shut down the load, directly.
> That happens in two scenarios:
> 1) the BMS is not designed to shut down the load; or
> 2) the BMS is designed correctly, but the user did not install it properly.
> In your case I believe it's #1.
>
> I mention this because, even after you replace the bad cell, you're likely
> to see the same problem again, because your BMS does not shut down the load
> directly, and instead simply rings a buzzer.
> Consequently, it is possible that once or twice that particular cell was
> low, the MiniBMS warned you, you didn't hear the buzzer and kept on driving,
> the voltage of that cell was reduced below its minimum safe voltage, and the
> cell was damaged, in the form of high internal resistance. Consequently, as
> time went by, that cell voltage sagged more than the others under
> acceleration, making it even more prone to damage from low voltage.
>
> If that is indeed what happened, the same thing will probably happen again,
> after you replace the bad cell.
>
>
>
>
> -----
> Davide Andrea
> Elithion
> --
> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Calb-battery-issue-tp4659218p4659226.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: Calb battery issue

David Ladd
In reply to this post by Elithion
I understand that I am setting myself up for accusations of misuse whenever I admit in public that I've had a few CALB cells fail on me.  I'm OK with that, but I really don't think it's true.  And I've never had a cell go low due to SOC, only sag on acceleration.  And even now a year after I first noticed the issue, the weak cells only go to around 2.4v, which I don't think is a low enough voltage to cause damage.  I don't think the BMS is to blame at all.

david.
http://www.evalbum.com/4021


----- Original Message -----

> From: Elithion <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc:
> Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2012 3:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Calb battery issue
>
> While it is possible that a cell has gone bad all on its own, I must say that
> in our experience the cause is more likely to be that the BMS did not
> protect the pack, because it wasn't wired to shut down the load, directly.
> That happens in two scenarios:
> 1) the BMS is not designed to shut down the load; or
> 2) the BMS is designed correctly, but the user did not install it properly.
> In your case I believe it's #1.
>
> I mention this because, even after you replace the bad cell, you're likely
> to see the same problem again, because your BMS does not shut down the load
> directly, and instead simply rings a buzzer.
> Consequently, it is possible that once or twice that particular cell was
> low, the MiniBMS warned you, you didn't hear the buzzer and kept on driving,
> the voltage of that cell was reduced below its minimum safe voltage, and the
> cell was damaged, in the form of high internal resistance. Consequently, as
> time went by, that cell voltage sagged more than the others under
> acceleration, making it even more prone to damage from low voltage.
>
> If that is indeed what happened, the same thing will probably happen again,
> after you replace the bad cell.

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Re: Calb battery issue

Cruisin
In reply to this post by Elithion
Ben, I think everybody has described the problem and solution for you. My recommendation is to either drive it the way it is, or pull the cell and change the charging parameter in the Elcon to one less cell for your charging algorithm. If your Mini BMS is connected properly and turns off the Elcon upon alarm, you haven't overcharged the cell. The Mini BMS will protect your cells if connected properly. It is probably a defective cell and CALB isn't going to do anything about it unless you tie the defective cell to your purchase of more. I tried to get a defective cell replaced a week after receiving it from CALB and TED in china wanted all kind of BMS printouts. Hate to say it, but they don't  take care of customer service the way they should. Let us know what you did and how it worked out for you.
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Fisker Hurricane Damage Details

Bill Dube
Here is a Wall Street Journal article with the details about the
storm damage to the shipment of Fisker vehicles:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204755404578103180617949610.html?ru=yahoo&mod=yahoo_hs

Notice that the 12 volt starting battery system was the root cause of
the fire. Only 16 of the total of 300 Fisker vehicles caught fire. If
the wind had not spread the fire car-to-car, the number would have been fewer.

Toyota had similar fires on their gasoline cars caught in the storm
during delivery.

Kinda pokes holes in all the anti-EV conjecture, doesn't it?

Bill D.

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Re: Calb battery issue

IBScootn
In reply to this post by Ben Jarrett-2
Ben,

I have spoken to a battery supplier, evolve electrics & boulder hybrids, and they tell me none of the big cell batteries (Calb, GBS, TS, Sinopoly, etc) are truly 3C (390A) cells.  Better to run them at 2.5C.  At 400A you were running them over 3C and Prolly causing premature death.

From the early failures they were seeing in a very short time at 3C, there's no way I would risk my pack like that.  Maybe if you have great ventilation like I have on my e-motor, but sounds risky within a car.
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Re: Calb battery issue

EVDL Administrator
In reply to this post by Bill Dube
I approach this as the guy with only a little lithium experience, so feel
free to shoot these thoughts down if you have more experience than I do.

It seems to me that some variability in cells may be the price you pay for
the relatively low cost of Calb, Thundersky, and the other competitive
Chinese LiFePO4 cells.  There are other brands which >might< be more
consistent in life and performance, and/or might have lower early mortality,
but you'll pay more for them.

If high reliability is a priority - whether because you commute to work and
will get fired if you're late, or because you feel you have to defend your
EV interest to your ICE-head friends - then maybe a (probably much) more
expensive battery with better quality control is the answer.

This is just two Watt-hours' worth from a guy who's only done one EV - a
mobility scooter - with lithium.  Correct me if you think I'm on the wrong
track here.

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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Re: Calb battery issue

Jeffrey Jenkins
In reply to this post by Ben Jarrett-2
Ben Jarrett-2 wrote
...
Here's one thing I find interesting.  If you check out EVnetics controller pdf:
http://www.evnetics.com/downloads/Soliton_Manual_1v4_rev2.pdf

On page 13, there are 2 fields:
1. minimum voltage at no curret
2. minimum voltage at full current

For #1, they have 150V
For #2, they have 100V.

Now I realize this may just be an example, but if the cells were CALB cells,
you would have 150 / 2.6 = ~58 cells.
100 / 58 cells = 1.72V.

1.72 would be pretty low.  If 2.6V per cell is the minimum for no load for CALBs,
I wonder what a good full load voltage is.
...
If CALB says their cells will decline to 2.6V when they are dead then I would suggest setting the "minimum battery voltage at no current parameter" a little higher than that to, say, 2.80V to 2.90V per cell, particularly if your pack is top-balanced (or not balanced at all!?!).

The voltage the cells will sag down to under load has to be determined empirically, unfortunately, since few (non?) of the cell manufacturers provide discharge data above 1C. I would maybe start with 2.5V per cell and go no lower than 2.0V per cell (unless you are a drag racer, in which case the theoretical maximum power point for LFP cells occurs at a current draw that results in the cell sagging down to 1.65V).

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Re: Calb battery issue

David Ladd
In reply to this post by Ben Jarrett-2
>OK, so let's say the BMS warns me when the cell drops below 2.6V. 
>Will damage be done to the cell if this is ignored and the driver
>continues to accelerate causing the voltage to sag to something like 2.3V?


I don't know, that's for sure!  But it's certainly not a good thing when one cell sags to 2.3v and the rest of them stay up at 2.7v.  Not a good sign for that one cell, anyway.  Can't see it hurting the rest of the pack cells though.

>I do have the mini low voltage alert wired to my Soliton.  The system
>does seem to respond, but a bit slowly.
>
>Here's one thing I find interesting.  If you check out EVnetics controller pdf:
>http://www.evnetics.com/downloads/Soliton_Manual_1v4_rev2.pdf
>
>On page 13, there are 2 fields:
>1. minimum voltage at no curret
>2. minimum voltage at full current
>
>For #1, they have 150V
>For #2, they have 100V.
>
>Now I realize this may just be an example, but if the cells were CALB cells,
>you would have 150 / 2.6 = ~58 cells.
>100 / 58 cells = 1.72V.
>
>1.72 would be pretty low.  If 2.6V per cell is the minimum for no load for CALBs,
>I wonder what a good full load voltage is.


The Soliton is pretty fancy, it's a linear fit between those two values I think.  My controller settings are little bit different, it has two input values.  One cuts back the controller, the other shuts it off completely.  Not as intelligent as the Soliton, but similar idea I think.  My controller will cut back current and hold the voltage at a certain level regardless of current.  I personally set this 'soft' voltage limit at 2.7vpc.  This seems to be a decent compromise, I can get 300-500a depending on temperature, and my weakest cell stays above 2.3v at all times.  The second setting I have set at 2.5vpc, and completely kills the controller instantly.  I can't really see a scenario when this comes into play since the 'soft' limit would keep the voltage above this number at all times.  I did have the 'hard' limit come into play once when I messed up my settings (I accidentally set both limits to the same number).  I about went through the
 windshield when the controller cut out at full power!

I don't think I'd ever set my system to allow the cells to pull down to 1.7vpc though, that seems awfully low!

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Re: Calb battery issue

Al-57
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator
It seems most people are running their Calb cells way too hard for their amp
hour rating.
This is mainly because they chose too small a cell due to cost concerns.
3C continuous is, shall we say, optimistic. Even 1C continuous is pushing
it.
The cycle life ratings for these cells is when they are used at .3C, thats
three tenths C.
I run 100ah cells at no more than a brief max of 150a. Most of the time they
are at 30 to 50A.
I was shocked to see the increased internal resistance and resultant
increased
voltage sag at a not all that cold cell temp of 10C.
Without pack heating expect a big hit on EV performance in cold weather.

Al


----- Original Message -----
From: "EVDL Administrator" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2012 9:17 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Calb battery issue


>I approach this as the guy with only a little lithium experience, so feel
> free to shoot these thoughts down if you have more experience than I do.
>
> It seems to me that some variability in cells may be the price you pay for
> the relatively low cost of Calb, Thundersky, and the other competitive
> Chinese LiFePO4 cells.  There are other brands which >might< be more
> consistent in life and performance, and/or might have lower early
> mortality,
> but you'll pay more for them.
>
> If high reliability is a priority - whether because you commute to work
> and
> will get fired if you're late, or because you feel you have to defend your
> EV interest to your ICE-head friends - then maybe a (probably much) more
> expensive battery with better quality control is the answer.
>
> This is just two Watt-hours' worth from a guy who's only done one EV - a
> mobility scooter - with lithium.  Correct me if you think I'm on the wrong
> track here.
>
> David Roden
> EVDL Administrator
> http://www.evdl.org/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
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Re: Calb battery issue

Otmar
In reply to this post by David Ladd
David, are you aware that the Celllog8 will imbalance your pack if you monitor more than 6 cells per unit? It only pulls power from the lowest 6 cells and so drains them more than the top 2 over a course of months.

David Ladd wrote
...That is, I have a few cells that drop to ~2.4v under moderate load (300-500a depending on the temperature) while the other cells stay above 2.7v.  I know this because I've got a Celllog8s to monitor stuff.
-Otmar-

914 EV, California Poppy, Zilla research vehicle.
http://evcl.com/914/

The Zilla factory is at:
http://manzanitamicro.com/

Zilla Support is still at:
http://cafeelectric.com/Ssupport.php
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Re: Calb battery issue

David Ladd
I am aware of that, thanks for the warning though!  I left the harness on the cells, but only plug in the celllog when I'm actually doing a test run, so only a few minutes at a time, and not very often.

david.
http://www.evalbum.com/4021


----- Original Message -----

> From: Otmar <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc:
> Sent: Wednesday, November 7, 2012 10:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Calb battery issue
>
> David, are you aware that the Celllog8 will imbalance your pack if you
> monitor more than 6 cells per unit? It only pulls power from the lowest 6
> cells and so drains them more than the top 2 over a course of months.
>
>
> David Ladd wrote
>>  ...That is, I have a few cells that drop to ~2.4v under moderate load
>>  (300-500a depending on the temperature) while the other cells stay above
>>  2.7v.  I know this because I've got a Celllog8s to monitor stuff.

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Re: Calb battery issue

Hoegberg .
In reply to this post by Al-57



> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 22:32:41 -0500
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Calb battery issue
>
> It seems most people are running their Calb cells way too hard for their amp
> hour rating.
> This is mainly because they chose too small a cell due to cost concerns.
> 3C continuous is, shall we say, optimistic. Even 1C continuous is pushing
> it.
> The cycle life ratings for these cells is when they are used at .3C, thats
> three tenths C.
> I run 100ah cells at no more than a brief max of 150a. Most of the time they
> are at 30 to 50A.
> I was shocked to see the increased internal resistance and resultant
> increased
> voltage sag at a not all that cold cell temp of 10C.
> Without pack heating expect a big hit on EV performance in cold weather.
>
> Al
>


yes,
I did try the Tsky LFP90 and 40AHA in winter-cell-lab-benchtest, and they did not work at all..
This was very very low curent and they did drop below 1.5V at just some few amps,
and this is only at -30´C and they Still fails really bad to perform and give something useful at this normal temperature
-30 is nothing extreme. Not even in north China..  ;-)

So in a real and very cold winter in north europe(Jukkas friends in the north of finland for example) or russia,
the -40 to -55´C will cause big problem for most Lithium and other chem.
I dont even know if the cars with normal NiCD can perform decent at -50´Celcius.
But I am sure all LiFePo4 of todays low standard will be "dead",
and lead acid performs better here.

Maybe SAFT have some special mil-spec LiFePO4,
but if so..it will *not* be cheap...  :-)

-Please be careful with charging in winter,  even now in October we had -10 degrees C
at night here in mid-sweden, just some weeks ago, The BMS must not allow to charge a cold lithium cell.
As far as I know, it will give you permanent damage! (from internal Li-plating)
/John
     
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Re: Calb battery issue

Mike Nickerson
The voltage droop when my Thundersky cells were cold was the driving reason
for my modifications last year.  I added 1/2" foam insulation and 1/4"
plywood around the cells and heaters under 1/4" aluminum plates.  So far,
the insulation is helping enough that I haven't had to plug in the heaters.

If your cells don't like the environmental conditions, it is time to create
them conditions that make them happy.  My intent is to keep the cells
insulated and heated to75F when parked.  The cells will cool down somewhat
while driving, but should still be warm enough.  The heaters are Hydor
Hydrokables with thermostats.  They are attached to the back side of the
aluminum plate in a serpentine pattern.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Hoegberg .
> Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 3:46 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Calb battery issue
>
>
>
>
> > From: [hidden email]
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 22:32:41 -0500
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Calb battery issue
> >
> > It seems most people are running their Calb cells way too hard for
> > their amp hour rating.
> > This is mainly because they chose too small a cell due to cost concerns.
> > 3C continuous is, shall we say, optimistic. Even 1C continuous is
> > pushing it.
> > The cycle life ratings for these cells is when they are used at .3C,
> > thats three tenths C.
> > I run 100ah cells at no more than a brief max of 150a. Most of the
> > time they are at 30 to 50A.
> > I was shocked to see the increased internal resistance and resultant
> > increased voltage sag at a not all that cold cell temp of 10C.
> > Without pack heating expect a big hit on EV performance in cold weather.
> >
> > Al
> >
>
>
> yes,
> I did try the Tsky LFP90 and 40AHA in winter-cell-lab-benchtest, and they
did
> not work at all..
> This was very very low curent and they did drop below 1.5V at just some
few
> amps, and this is only at -30´C and they Still fails really bad to perform
and
> give something useful at this normal temperature
> -30 is nothing extreme. Not even in north China..  ;-)
>
> So in a real and very cold winter in north europe(Jukkas friends in the
north
> of finland for example) or russia, the -40 to -55´C will cause big problem
for
> most Lithium and other chem.
> I dont even know if the cars with normal NiCD can perform decent at -
> 50´Celcius.
> But I am sure all LiFePo4 of todays low standard will be "dead", and lead
acid
> performs better here.
>
> Maybe SAFT have some special mil-spec LiFePO4, but if so..it will *not* be
> cheap...  :-)
>
> -Please be careful with charging in winter,  even now in October we had
-10
> degrees C at night here in mid-sweden, just some weeks ago, The BMS must
> not allow to charge a cold lithium cell.
> As far as I know, it will give you permanent damage! (from internal
Li-plating)

> /John
>
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