Charge profile on Zivan NG3 for 108V US Battery 125's

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
14 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Charge profile on Zivan NG3 for 108V US Battery 125's

Steve Powers
Below is the charge profile in my charger for a 108V pack if US-125's

Im = 13 Amps constant current until voltage hits U1 which is 128.7V

Hold voltage at U1 which is 128.7V until current fades to I2 which is
6.7Amps.

Current is held constant at I2 which is 6.7 Amps for T3 which I am a little
unclear on, but I believe T3 ends when the voltage hits Um which is 132V
(seems very high for a 108V pack, but that is what the data sheet says).

Then it floats forever at 119V

I believe this profile is overaggressive and damaging the batteries,
espicially the part where it goes up to 132V.  So, I am looking for some
expert opinions as to if this is too aggressive.

Also, I plan to monitor the voltage and pull the plug at a certain point.
 I believe I should terminate the charge somewhere around 130V, so I know
it is at least 80% charged.  Then literally plug it back in, which I
believe will go straight to the float charge.  This would essentially skip
step 3 of the charge cycle.

Does anyone know if I can actually do this and the charger will behave as I
am thinking it will?  If the pack is >80% charged when I unplug, wait a few
minutes, and plug back in, will it go straight to float charge mode?  I
would think it should as a safety precaution so as not to overcharge the
pack in case of a power outage (which is what I am simulating).  I know
other smart chargers go straight to float if they are near 80%, but the NG3
manual doesn't say anything about this.

Also, is there a way to fake out the temp sensor to trick it into charging
to a lower threshold?  That was my other idea.  Or, send it back and tell
them I need it programmed for small AGM batteries instead of these big
flooded batteries.

Thanks,

Steve
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20131022/f0b47acd/attachment.htm>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Charge profile on Zivan NG3 for 108V US Battery 125's

Zeke Yewdall
For the PV world, 14.67 volts per 12 volt nominal would not be considered
too high of a bulk voltage setting for  flooded lead acid.  I usually go to
more like 14.8 even. (would be 133.2 in your case).  Trojan L16's actually
recommend taking them to 15 now in cyclic charging applications.  If you
hold it there all day, yes, the water use is going to be atrocious, but if
that's the cutoff voltage and it goes back down to 13.2/12 afterwards, it
seems fine.

In the EV world... I am just learning though, so not sure... But these are
the same batteries that we use in PV systems, and while discharge in the PV
world is much different, charging is similar.

Z


On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 9:54 AM, Steve Powers <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Below is the charge profile in my charger for a 108V pack if US-125's
>
> Im = 13 Amps constant current until voltage hits U1 which is 128.7V
>
> Hold voltage at U1 which is 128.7V until current fades to I2 which is
> 6.7Amps.
>
> Current is held constant at I2 which is 6.7 Amps for T3 which I am a little
> unclear on, but I believe T3 ends when the voltage hits Um which is 132V
> (seems very high for a 108V pack, but that is what the data sheet says).
>
> Then it floats forever at 119V
>
> I believe this profile is overaggressive and damaging the batteries,
> espicially the part where it goes up to 132V.  So, I am looking for some
> expert opinions as to if this is too aggressive.
>
> Also, I plan to monitor the voltage and pull the plug at a certain point.
>  I believe I should terminate the charge somewhere around 130V, so I know
> it is at least 80% charged.  Then literally plug it back in, which I
> believe will go straight to the float charge.  This would essentially skip
> step 3 of the charge cycle.
>
> Does anyone know if I can actually do this and the charger will behave as I
> am thinking it will?  If the pack is >80% charged when I unplug, wait a few
> minutes, and plug back in, will it go straight to float charge mode?  I
> would think it should as a safety precaution so as not to overcharge the
> pack in case of a power outage (which is what I am simulating).  I know
> other smart chargers go straight to float if they are near 80%, but the NG3
> manual doesn't say anything about this.
>
> Also, is there a way to fake out the temp sensor to trick it into charging
> to a lower threshold?  That was my other idea.  Or, send it back and tell
> them I need it programmed for small AGM batteries instead of these big
> flooded batteries.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20131022/f0b47acd/attachment.htm
> >
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20131022/38ef8c35/attachment.htm>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Charge profile on Zivan NG3 for 108V US Battery 125's

RightHand Engineering-2
In reply to this post by Steve Powers
Hi Steve,My comment is that the US distributor for Zivan seems to consistently program the Zivan chargers to be too aggressive when charging wet PbA batteries. I got an NG5 from them which charged my 144V pack to over 190V each cycle, and that was in effect doing an EQ charge each cycle. I checked with the manufacturer of my T-145 batteries (Trojan) and they agreed that it wasn't good for the batteries. So I went back to the distributor and asked to have it reprogrammed (for free), but they refused and defended their charging profile as "good" for the batteries. My batteries were dead within 3 years, rather than the normal 5 years. I've since replaced my NG5 with a PFC-30 by Manzanita.-Randywww.evalbum.com/1253

> Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 11:54:24 -0400
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [EVDL] Charge profile on Zivan NG3 for 108V US Battery 125's
>
> Below is the charge profile in my charger for a 108V pack if US-125's
>
> Im = 13 Amps constant current until voltage hits U1 which is 128.7V
>
> Hold voltage at U1 which is 128.7V until current fades to I2 which is
> 6.7Amps.
>
> Current is held constant at I2 which is 6.7 Amps for T3 which I am a little
> unclear on, but I believe T3 ends when the voltage hits Um which is 132V
> (seems very high for a 108V pack, but that is what the data sheet says).
>
> Then it floats forever at 119V
>
> I believe this profile is overaggressive and damaging the batteries,
> espicially the part where it goes up to 132V.  So, I am looking for some
> expert opinions as to if this is too aggressive.
>
> Also, I plan to monitor the voltage and pull the plug at a certain point.
>  I believe I should terminate the charge somewhere around 130V, so I know
> it is at least 80% charged.  Then literally plug it back in, which I
> believe will go straight to the float charge.  This would essentially skip
> step 3 of the charge cycle.
>
> Does anyone know if I can actually do this and the charger will behave as I
> am thinking it will?  If the pack is >80% charged when I unplug, wait a few
> minutes, and plug back in, will it go straight to float charge mode?  I
> would think it should as a safety precaution so as not to overcharge the
> pack in case of a power outage (which is what I am simulating).  I know
> other smart chargers go straight to float if they are near 80%, but the NG3
> manual doesn't say anything about this.
>
> Also, is there a way to fake out the temp sensor to trick it into charging
> to a lower threshold?  That was my other idea.  Or, send it back and tell
> them I need it programmed for small AGM batteries instead of these big
> flooded batteries.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20131022/f0b47acd/attachment.htm>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
     
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20131022/79cfc6fa/attachment.htm>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Charge profile on Zivan NG3 for 108V US Battery 125's

EVDL Administrator
On 22 Oct 2013 at 12:27, RightHand Engineering wrote:

>  the US distributor for Zivan seems to consistently program the Zivan
> chargers to be too aggressive when charging wet PbA batteries .. I ...
> asked to have it reprogrammed (for free), but they refused and defended
> their charging profile as "good" for the batteries.

An acquaintance of mine had exactly the same experience with a K5 several
years ago.  It was hammering his batteries, but the distributor flat-out
refused to change the profile at all.

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Charge profile on Zivan NG3 for 108V US Battery 125's

Zeke Yewdall
In reply to this post by RightHand Engineering-2
Yikes, 190 for a 144 nominal is a pretty high equalizing charge every time....

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 22, 2013, at 1:27 PM, RightHand Engineering <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Steve,My comment is that the US distributor for Zivan seems to consistently program the Zivan chargers to be too aggressive when charging wet PbA batteries. I got an NG5 from them which charged my 144V pack to over 190V each cycle, and that was in effect doing an EQ charge each cycle. I checked with the manufacturer of my T-145 batteries (Trojan) and they agreed that it wasn't good for the batteries. So I went back to the distributor and asked to have it reprogrammed (for free), but they refused and defended their charging profile as "good" for the batteries. My batteries were dead within 3 years, rather than the normal 5 years. I've since replaced my NG5 with a PFC-30 by Manzanita.-Randywww.evalbum.com/1253
>
>> Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 11:54:24 -0400
>> From: [hidden email]
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: [EVDL] Charge profile on Zivan NG3 for 108V US Battery 125's
>>
>> Below is the charge profile in my charger for a 108V pack if US-125's
>>
>> Im = 13 Amps constant current until voltage hits U1 which is 128.7V
>>
>> Hold voltage at U1 which is 128.7V until current fades to I2 which is
>> 6.7Amps.
>>
>> Current is held constant at I2 which is 6.7 Amps for T3 which I am a little
>> unclear on, but I believe T3 ends when the voltage hits Um which is 132V
>> (seems very high for a 108V pack, but that is what the data sheet says).
>>
>> Then it floats forever at 119V
>>
>> I believe this profile is overaggressive and damaging the batteries,
>> espicially the part where it goes up to 132V.  So, I am looking for some
>> expert opinions as to if this is too aggressive.
>>
>> Also, I plan to monitor the voltage and pull the plug at a certain point.
>> I believe I should terminate the charge somewhere around 130V, so I know
>> it is at least 80% charged.  Then literally plug it back in, which I
>> believe will go straight to the float charge.  This would essentially skip
>> step 3 of the charge cycle.
>>
>> Does anyone know if I can actually do this and the charger will behave as I
>> am thinking it will?  If the pack is >80% charged when I unplug, wait a few
>> minutes, and plug back in, will it go straight to float charge mode?  I
>> would think it should as a safety precaution so as not to overcharge the
>> pack in case of a power outage (which is what I am simulating).  I know
>> other smart chargers go straight to float if they are near 80%, but the NG3
>> manual doesn't say anything about this.
>>
>> Also, is there a way to fake out the temp sensor to trick it into charging
>> to a lower threshold?  That was my other idea.  Or, send it back and tell
>> them I need it programmed for small AGM batteries instead of these big
>> flooded batteries.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Steve
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20131022/f0b47acd/attachment.htm>
>> _______________________________________________
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>                        
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20131022/79cfc6fa/attachment.htm>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Charge profile on Zivan NG3 for 108V US Battery 125's

Steve Powers
In reply to this post by Steve Powers
I watched the charge cycle this afternoon and it is worse than I thought.  The charge cycle is different than what I wrote below.

It was in the 3rd phase and I was seeing almost 140V on the PacTracker with all kinds of error messages that it was overcharging.  The charger showed no signs of going to float mode any time soon.  I unplugged it and waited about 15 minutes.  I plugged it back in.  It started up and immediately went back to Phase 3 cooking the batteries again.  I can't continue to use this charger.  Even if I pull the plug, I can't get it into a float mode.  I have to get a new charger that works for 108V and doesn't cook the batteries.

So, here it what it is really doing as far as I can tell:

Im = 13 Amps constant current until voltage hits U1 which is 128.7V (this is probably true, but I didn't verify)

Hold voltage at U1 which is 128.7V until current fades to I2 which is
6.7Amps.  (This is also probably true)

Current is held constant at I2 which is 6.7 Amps for T3 which I am a little
unclear on, but I believe T3 ends when the voltage hits Um which is 132V
(seems very high for a 108V pack, but that is what the data sheet says).
This is not true.  The voltage was way over 132, it was almost 140 when I pulled the plug.


Then it floats forever at 119V.  I measured and it was exactly 119.4V, so this is true.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Charge profile on Zivan NG3 for 108V US Battery 125's

David Nelson-5
In reply to this post by Zeke Yewdall
Steve,

Inside your NG3 are two calibration pots. One is marked U for Voltage
and the other I for current. If you are comfortable with working with
live parts and know how to do it safely you could take the cover off
and adjust the voltage down within the limits of the pot. Just
remember you will need some way to cool the components, I used a large
box fan, and that the internals of the charger are live.

As for T3, if it is like my Zivan NG1 and NG3 then T3 is dependent on
how long the charger was running before reaching that point. On mine
the time ranged from around 45 min to two hours. The Um of 132V is
just the voltage that the charger will not go above. If the batteries
never get to that voltage then the charger will keep the equalizing
current at its max setting.

Again, be careful if you operate on your charger while it is plugged
in to anything, including the batteries. Use an insulated screwdriver
to make the adjustments.

On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 3:35 PM, zeke Yewdall <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Yikes, 190 for a 144 nominal is a pretty high equalizing charge every time....
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Oct 22, 2013, at 1:27 PM, RightHand Engineering <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi Steve,My comment is that the US distributor for Zivan seems to consistently program the Zivan chargers to be too aggressive when charging wet PbA batteries. I got an NG5 from them which charged my 144V pack to over 190V each cycle, and that was in effect doing an EQ charge each cycle. I checked with the manufacturer of my T-145 batteries (Trojan) and they agreed that it wasn't good for the batteries. So I went back to the distributor and asked to have it reprogrammed (for free), but they refused and defended their charging profile as "good" for the batteries. My batteries were dead within 3 years, rather than the normal 5 years. I've since replaced my NG5 with a PFC-30 by Manzanita.-Randywww.evalbum.com/1253
>>
>>> Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 11:54:24 -0400
>>> From: [hidden email]
>>> To: [hidden email]
>>> Subject: [EVDL] Charge profile on Zivan NG3 for 108V US Battery 125's
>>>
>>> Below is the charge profile in my charger for a 108V pack if US-125's
>>>
>>> Im = 13 Amps constant current until voltage hits U1 which is 128.7V
>>>
>>> Hold voltage at U1 which is 128.7V until current fades to I2 which is
>>> 6.7Amps.
>>>
>>> Current is held constant at I2 which is 6.7 Amps for T3 which I am a little
>>> unclear on, but I believe T3 ends when the voltage hits Um which is 132V
>>> (seems very high for a 108V pack, but that is what the data sheet says).
>>>
>>> Then it floats forever at 119V
>>>
>>> I believe this profile is overaggressive and damaging the batteries,
>>> espicially the part where it goes up to 132V.  So, I am looking for some
>>> expert opinions as to if this is too aggressive.
>>>
>>> Also, I plan to monitor the voltage and pull the plug at a certain point.
>>> I believe I should terminate the charge somewhere around 130V, so I know
>>> it is at least 80% charged.  Then literally plug it back in, which I
>>> believe will go straight to the float charge.  This would essentially skip
>>> step 3 of the charge cycle.
>>>
>>> Does anyone know if I can actually do this and the charger will behave as I
>>> am thinking it will?  If the pack is >80% charged when I unplug, wait a few
>>> minutes, and plug back in, will it go straight to float charge mode?  I
>>> would think it should as a safety precaution so as not to overcharge the
>>> pack in case of a power outage (which is what I am simulating).  I know
>>> other smart chargers go straight to float if they are near 80%, but the NG3
>>> manual doesn't say anything about this.
>>>
>>> Also, is there a way to fake out the temp sensor to trick it into charging
>>> to a lower threshold?  That was my other idea.  Or, send it back and tell
>>> them I need it programmed for small AGM batteries instead of these big
>>> flooded batteries.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Steve
>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>> URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20131022/f0b47acd/attachment.htm>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>>
>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20131022/79cfc6fa/attachment.htm>
>> _______________________________________________
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>



--
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328
http://www.levforum.com
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Charge profile on Zivan NG3 for 108V US Battery 125's

Tom Keenan
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator
Kind of a kluge, but perhaps you could tell them you now have a 138v pack
(23 batteries)? They would then adjust it down to 181.5 volts (at their
'normal' of ~2.63 VPC) which would be a more reasonable 2.52 VPC for your
144v (72 cell) pack...

Tom Keenan

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of EVDL Administrator
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 2:21 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charge profile on Zivan NG3 for 108V US Battery 125's

On 22 Oct 2013 at 12:27, RightHand Engineering wrote:

>  the US distributor for Zivan seems to consistently program the Zivan
> chargers to be too aggressive when charging wet PbA batteries .. I ...
> asked to have it reprogrammed (for free), but they refused and
> defended their charging profile as "good" for the batteries.

An acquaintance of mine had exactly the same experience with a K5 several
years ago.  It was hammering his batteries, but the distributor flat-out
refused to change the profile at all.

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Charge profile on Zivan NG3 for 108V US Battery 125's

Buddy Mills @ Cox.net
In reply to this post by RightHand Engineering-2
If I am assuming correctly that Zivan and Elcom is the same distributor I
had the same experience with my Elcom.  It was charging my Deka Gel 12volt
(8G31) to 242volts (15 batteries) where Deka stated the max was 214volts.  I
went around with them and the company (not to be mentioned) that I purchased
the Elcom from to no avail.  I finally purchased 4 Pro SeriesX4 to charge
each battery individually.  Surprise, surprise the total voltage when
charging was max out at 214 volts, right to Deka specs.  
Recently I started to convert to Lith and sold my 4 year old batteries to
the local Fishing Spot that rents out batteries by the day.  He tested each
battery and all read between 105ah to 125ah.  Well above the 97ah
specs...not bad for 4 year old batteries.  I only had about 10k miles on
them which works out to 333 cycles on them at full charge (it was more like
double that with less than full charge).  My point is I believe they
survived above expectation because I insured that they were not overcharged
and did not used the Elcom.
BTW I never got my Elcom charger back or my money. But then most of you have
already hear that story.


Buddy Mills
 

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of EVDL Administrator
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 5:21 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charge profile on Zivan NG3 for 108V US Battery 125's

On 22 Oct 2013 at 12:27, RightHand Engineering wrote:

>  the US distributor for Zivan seems to consistently program the Zivan
> chargers to be too aggressive when charging wet PbA batteries .. I ...
> asked to have it reprogrammed (for free), but they refused and defended
> their charging profile as "good" for the batteries.

An acquaintance of mine had exactly the same experience with a K5 several
years ago.  It was hammering his batteries, but the distributor flat-out
refused to change the profile at all.

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)



_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Charge profile on Zivan NG3 for 108V US Battery 125's

David Nelson-5
There was a thread over on DIY Electricar where some people were
working on a replacement control board for Zivan chargers. That would
be the ticket if someone could get it created. Then you just program
in what you want and be done with it.

I had to tell them I had 19 LFP cells to get the voltage I wanted for
20 LFP cells.

On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 7:01 PM, Buddy Mills <[hidden email]> wrote:

> If I am assuming correctly that Zivan and Elcom is the same distributor I
> had the same experience with my Elcom.  It was charging my Deka Gel 12volt
> (8G31) to 242volts (15 batteries) where Deka stated the max was 214volts.  I
> went around with them and the company (not to be mentioned) that I purchased
> the Elcom from to no avail.  I finally purchased 4 Pro SeriesX4 to charge
> each battery individually.  Surprise, surprise the total voltage when
> charging was max out at 214 volts, right to Deka specs.
> Recently I started to convert to Lith and sold my 4 year old batteries to
> the local Fishing Spot that rents out batteries by the day.  He tested each
> battery and all read between 105ah to 125ah.  Well above the 97ah
> specs...not bad for 4 year old batteries.  I only had about 10k miles on
> them which works out to 333 cycles on them at full charge (it was more like
> double that with less than full charge).  My point is I believe they
> survived above expectation because I insured that they were not overcharged
> and did not used the Elcom.
> BTW I never got my Elcom charger back or my money. But then most of you have
> already hear that story.
>
>
> Buddy Mills
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
> Of EVDL Administrator
> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 5:21 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charge profile on Zivan NG3 for 108V US Battery 125's
>
> On 22 Oct 2013 at 12:27, RightHand Engineering wrote:
>
>>  the US distributor for Zivan seems to consistently program the Zivan
>> chargers to be too aggressive when charging wet PbA batteries .. I ...
>> asked to have it reprogrammed (for free), but they refused and defended
>> their charging profile as "good" for the batteries.
>
> An acquaintance of mine had exactly the same experience with a K5 several
> years ago.  It was hammering his batteries, but the distributor flat-out
> refused to change the profile at all.
>
> David Roden
> EVDL Administrator
> http://www.evdl.org/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>



--
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328
http://www.levforum.com
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Charge profile on Zivan NG3 for 108V US Battery 125's

Steve Powers
In reply to this post by Buddy Mills @ Cox.net
This is a big disappointment that the charger is this way.  The batteries at physically 3 years old, but not used that much.  They have about 3000 miles on them which is probably 150-200 cycles.  They have been badly abused for those cycles, but still work OK.

I am going to have to do something different.  My options are:
1) 96V Delta-Q + one individual 10Amp 12V smart charger
2) Russco 18-20 with some control circuit that I have to develop (my original plan)
3) 9 individual 12V chargers - very messy to wire up considering where the batteries are in the car
4) My Zivan K2 which does have exposed adjustment pots, bit U haven't been able to get it adjusted.  Maybe because I was turning the pots when it was off and it needs to be adjusted under power.

I have the chargers and equipment for all the above (I have a lot of spare EV parts in my garage), but maybe don't want to spend the time or mess the nice looking car up by running 9 individual chargers.

I also considered getting 3 36V Delta-Q, but I don't have enough power for that and even used it would run me about $700-$800 on e-bay for the three.  At least Delta-Q has different algorithms that are user selectable.

Steve
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Charge profile on Zivan NG3 for 108V US Battery 125's

Roland Wiench
In reply to this post by Steve Powers
Hello Steve,

Did you know that you can purchase chargers that have multiple leads coming out of it for charging many batteries, but each cell separately.  Back in the 50's, I was working in a military battery shop which was normally use to charge aircraft nicad batteries and 6, 12, 24 and 36 volt lead batteries.

The charger unit was in a separate room and all the wires were run in conduits to a roll of arc proof receptacles in the battery room.  Plugging into the 1st and 2nd receptacle for one 1.5 V cell, 2nd and 3rd for another and etc.

For the lead batteries we plug into the 1st and 3rd receptacle for one cell and 3rd and 5th receptacle for charging each 2 volt cell separately.  This was easy to do, because the cell connections were expose on the outside of the batteries.  You still can purchase these types of batteries in the 300 AH range today.

My first set of batteries was in 1976 in my EV had these type of expose cell links in a 300 AH battery.  The battery look like the Exide Tudor Types that you still can see on line today which are the 2 volt cells.  

I could easily balance this battery pack regulated charge at 10% of the AH rating of the battery pack or at 30 amps.  This batteries lasted me just over 10 years.  

The next battery pack which was 30 each Exide X Something, lasted about 8 years, charging at 30 amperes.  The last pack was the Trojans T-145's charging at 40 amps that lasted 8.8 years.  

The pack I have now is the US Battery 250 AH 6 volt that I install on Sept 4, 2009, charge at 25 ampere to 225 volts at a battery temperature of 80F.  Today they have 2645 cycles for 3504 miles.  They took about 600 cycles before they reach there maximum capacity peak.  

The reason these batteries lasted this long, is that most of my trips are short not discharging below 90% SOC using a higher AH battery.

Roland    
 

 
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Steve Powers<mailto:[hidden email]>
  To: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
  Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 4:24 AM
  Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charge profile on Zivan NG3 for 108V US Battery 125's


  This is a big disappointment that the charger is this way.  The batteries at
  physically 3 years old, but not used that much.  They have about 3000 miles
  on them which is probably 150-200 cycles.  They have been badly abused for
  those cycles, but still work OK.

  I am going to have to do something different.  My options are:
  1) 96V Delta-Q + one individual 10Amp 12V smart charger
  2) Russco 18-20 with some control circuit that I have to develop (my
  original plan)
  3) 9 individual 12V chargers - very messy to wire up considering where the
  batteries are in the car
  4) My Zivan K2 which does have exposed adjustment pots, bit U haven't been
  able to get it adjusted.  Maybe because I was turning the pots when it was
  off and it needs to be adjusted under power.

  I have the chargers and equipment for all the above (I have a lot of spare
  EV parts in my garage), but maybe don't want to spend the time or mess the
  nice looking car up by running 9 individual chargers.

  I also considered getting 3 36V Delta-Q, but I don't have enough power for
  that and even used it would run me about $700-$800 on e-bay for the three.
  At least Delta-Q has different algorithms that are user selectable.

  Steve




  --
  View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Charge-profile-on-Zivan-NG3-for-108V-US-Battery-125-s-tp4665883p4665898.html<http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Charge-profile-on-Zivan-NG3-for-108V-US-Battery-125-s-tp4665883p4665898.html>
  Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
  _______________________________________________
  UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub<http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub>
  http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org<http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org>
  For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA>)

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20131023/79009ebb/attachment.htm>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: charging options for 108V USBattery 125 pack

brucedp5
In reply to this post by Steve Powers
I read that you are not that interested in multiple chargers.
So, I found a 108VDC charger, that runs off 120VAC (I assume that is
what you are using because you mentioned a Russco 18-120). See

http://02a27d4.netsolstores.com/onboardselect-a-charge.aspx
a 108VDC 10a charger for about $500.


{brucedp.150m.com}



On Wed, Oct 23, 2013, at 03:24 AM, Steve Powers wrote:

> This is a big disappointment that the charger is this way.  The batteries
> at
> physically 3 years old, but not used that much.  They have about 3000
> miles
> on them which is probably 150-200 cycles.  They have been badly abused
> for
> those cycles, but still work OK.
>
> I am going to have to do something different.  My options are:
> 1) 96V Delta-Q + one individual 10Amp 12V smart charger
> 2) Russco 18-20 with some control circuit that I have to develop (my
> original plan)
> 3) 9 individual 12V chargers - very messy to wire up considering where
> the
> batteries are in the car
> 4) My Zivan K2 which does have exposed adjustment pots, bit U haven't
> been
> able to get it adjusted.  Maybe because I was turning the pots when it
> was
> off and it needs to be adjusted under power.
>
> I have the chargers and equipment for all the above (I have a lot of
> spare
> EV parts in my garage), but maybe don't want to spend the time or mess
> the
> nice looking car up by running 9 individual chargers.
>
> I also considered getting 3 36V Delta-Q, but I don't have enough power
> for
> that and even used it would run me about $700-$800 on e-bay for the
> three.
> At least Delta-Q has different algorithms that are user selectable.
-

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - One of many happy users:
  http://www.fastmail.fm/help/overview_quotes.html

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: charging options for 108V USBattery 125 pack

Jay Summet
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I have the 120 volt version of this charger as my convenience charger
(120 volt opportunity charger) and it works without hassle.   At 10 amps
it is NOT enough to really "shock" your batteries into shape and (below
the recommended charging current for large golf cart batteries), but it
does charge them up eventually.

(I have a Zivan NG3 for 240 volt charging that gives 20+ amps)

So I guess the option is either overcharging them or "under" charging
them (from a current standpoint, it gets the voltage up just fine...)

Jay

On 10/23/2013 02:51 PM, Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:

> I read that you are not that interested in multiple chargers.
> So, I found a 108VDC charger, that runs off 120VAC (I assume that is
> what you are using because you mentioned a Russco 18-120). See
>
> http://02a27d4.netsolstores.com/onboardselect-a-charge.aspx
> a 108VDC 10a charger for about $500.
>
>
> {brucedp.150m.com}
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 23, 2013, at 03:24 AM, Steve Powers wrote:
>> This is a big disappointment that the charger is this way.  The batteries
>> at
>> physically 3 years old, but not used that much.  They have about 3000
>> miles
>> on them which is probably 150-200 cycles.  They have been badly abused
>> for
>> those cycles, but still work OK.
>>
>> I am going to have to do something different.  My options are:
>> 1) 96V Delta-Q + one individual 10Amp 12V smart charger
>> 2) Russco 18-20 with some control circuit that I have to develop (my
>> original plan)
>> 3) 9 individual 12V chargers - very messy to wire up considering where
>> the
>> batteries are in the car
>> 4) My Zivan K2 which does have exposed adjustment pots, bit U haven't
>> been
>> able to get it adjusted.  Maybe because I was turning the pots when it
>> was
>> off and it needs to be adjusted under power.
>>
>> I have the chargers and equipment for all the above (I have a lot of
>> spare
>> EV parts in my garage), but maybe don't want to spend the time or mess
>> the
>> nice looking car up by running 9 individual chargers.
>>
>> I also considered getting 3 36V Delta-Q, but I don't have enough power
>> for
>> that and even used it would run me about $700-$800 on e-bay for the
>> three.
>> At least Delta-Q has different algorithms that are user selectable.
> -
>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with undefined - http://www.enigmail.net/

iEYEARECAAYFAlJoO7oACgkQSWJjSgPNbM9OxgCfZ/l6WWYqdTiYk9bgR0+GqvQw
nrgAn0m6RIXD3LHiSxkUYMnPKTjLeC7N
=49j5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)