Chelsea Sexton on NPR talks about EV's

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Chelsea Sexton on NPR talks about EV's

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'Aww shucks, we tried, but those consumers just don't want electric cars....'

Here is a frank and motivated discussion about the future of EV's under our new
president.
http://www.npr.org/2017/03/07/518956871/how-administration-regs-could-affect-the
-future-of-the-electric-car

If you support EV's then you'll listen and try to understand how profitable it
is for Trump and the gas auto industry to NOT support EV's.

If after you listen to it you consider this political then you have your head in
the sand or elsewhere...

Rush Dougherty
Tucson AZ 85719



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Re: Chelsea Sexton on NPR talks about EV's

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i just listened to a podcast about GM going completely into hydrogen
fuel cells (head of development interview) instead of EV's.
Considering that H2 is a byproduct of natural gas production it all
fits together nicely, the underground fuel industries like H2, the
petroleum fueling services like it, it keeps them all in the game.
plus they will sell H2 as a zero emissions vehicle fuel, disregarding
all the released methane, and other ideas that make wind, solar,
etc,.other sustainable energy sources seem less good.

 Ah well. The pendulum swings.

On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 2:22 PM, Rush Dougherty via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 'Aww shucks, we tried, but those consumers just don't want electric cars....'
>
> Here is a frank and motivated discussion about the future of EV's under our new
> president.
> http://www.npr.org/2017/03/07/518956871/how-administration-regs-could-affect-the
> -future-of-the-electric-car
>
> If you support EV's then you'll listen and try to understand how profitable it
> is for Trump and the gas auto industry to NOT support EV's.
>
> If after you listen to it you consider this political then you have your head in
> the sand or elsewhere...
>
> Rush Dougherty
> Tucson AZ 85719
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>



--
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
Warren Buffet

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824 Mobile and Google Phone

[hidden email]
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Re: Chelsea Sexton on NPR talks about EV's

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Michael Ross via EV wrote:

> i just listened to a podcast about GM going completely into hydrogen
> fuel cells (head of development interview) instead of EV's.
> Considering that H2 is a byproduct of natural gas production it all
> fits together nicely, the underground fuel industries like H2, the
> petroleum fueling services like it, it keeps them all in the game.
> plus they will sell H2 as a zero emissions vehicle fuel, disregarding
> all the released methane, and other ideas that make wind, solar,
> etc,.other sustainable energy sources seem less good.
>
> Ah well. The pendulum swings.

Yep. Haven't we heard it all before, how EVs are dead, and hydrogen is the
"future"? Sounds like 2000, doesn't it? History may not repeat, but it too often
echoes... :-)

--
Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the
complicated simple. -- Charles Mingus
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: Chelsea Sexton on NPR talks about EV's

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To me it is quite understandable why automobile manufacturers do not want to make electric vehicles. If I have a company making something I wouldn't want to government to tell me I had to make something else. I think new companies need to start up making electric vehicles and just let Detroit slowly die like Kodak.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 7, 2017, at 1:22 PM, Rush Dougherty via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> 'Aww shucks, we tried, but those consumers just don't want electric cars....'
>
> Here is a frank and motivated discussion about the future of EV's under our new
> president.
> http://www.npr.org/2017/03/07/518956871/how-administration-regs-could-affect-the
> -future-of-the-electric-car
>
> If you support EV's then you'll listen and try to understand how profitable it
> is for Trump and the gas auto industry to NOT support EV's.
>
> If after you listen to it you consider this political then you have your head in
> the sand or elsewhere...
>
> Rush Dougherty
> Tucson AZ 85719
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

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Re: Chelsea Sexton on NPR talks about EV's

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On 8 Mar 2017 at 6:50, paul dove via EV wrote:

> To me it is quite understandable why automobile manufacturers do not want to
> make electric vehicles. If I have a company making something I wouldn't want
> to government to tell me I had to make something else.

Of course!  Nobody wants to be told what to do.  But that's not the way life
is; we don't live in our own little bubbles.  What we ,do and ESPECIALLY
what big corporations do, affects other people.  When your product affects
the public welfare and/or human health, it's going to be regulated.  It has
to be.  That's government's job.

I may be wrong, but AFAIK nobody has said to GM in so many words, "you have
to make EVs."  Now, maybe EVs are the only and/or best way to accomplish
what the laws require of them, but that's not the same thing.  

If GM wants to develop wind-up cars or wind-powered cars or flywheel-storage
cars or whatever cars, and they accomplish the same regulatory ends with
these approaches, nothing's stopping them (except perhaps issues of
practicality and/or marketability).

> I think new companies need to start up making electric vehicles and
> just let Detroit slowly die like Kodak.

There I agree 100%.  There's a reason that IBM, Remington Rand, and
Burroughs weren't the ones who developed the first practical personal
computers.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: Chelsea Sexton on NPR talks about EV's

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On Wed Mar 08 09:58:47 PST 2017 [hidden email] said:
>There I agree 100%.  There's a reason that IBM, Remington Rand, and
>Burroughs weren't the ones who developed the first practical personal
>computers.

You mean, like the IBM PC?  :-)


--

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Re: Chelsea Sexton on NPR talks about EV's

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Right on David. When I became concerned about air quality Las Vegas was
one of the most polluted cities in the country, in the worst 3%. The EPA
and local Health District implemented regulations on wood burning
fireplaces, vehicle emissions and dust from construction sites. We can
now see our mountains and seldom have breathing problems unless there is
a forest fire somewhere nearby or the pollen levels are high. Yes,  they
are working on the pollen problem, have banned the most offensive plants
in new developments. Smoking is no longer allowed in public buildings or
restaurants. Laws have been passed to protect bicycle riders and bike
lanes have been added. From January 1, 1996, the U.S. Clean Air Act
banned the sale of leaded fuel for use in on-road vehicles. Who would
want to return to the years before anything was regulated?

Gail

On 3/8/2017 9:58 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
> Of course!  Nobody wants to be told what to do.  But that's not the way life
> is; we don't live in our own little bubbles.  What we ,do and ESPECIALLY
> what big corporations do, affects other people.  When your product affects
> the public welfare and/or human health, it's going to be regulated.  It has
> to be.  That's government's job.
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Re: Chelsea Sexton on NPR talks about EV's

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
My point was that it may not be political at all or have anything to do will oil.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 8, 2017, at 11:58 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 8 Mar 2017 at 6:50, paul dove via EV wrote:
>>
>> To me it is quite understandable why automobile manufacturers do not want to
>> make electric vehicles. If I have a company making something I wouldn't want
>> to government to tell me I had to make something else.
>
> Of course!  Nobody wants to be told what to do.  But that's not the way life
> is; we don't live in our own little bubbles.  What we ,do and ESPECIALLY
> what big corporations do, affects other people.  When your product affects
> the public welfare and/or human health, it's going to be regulated.  It has
> to be.  That's government's job.
>
> I may be wrong, but AFAIK nobody has said to GM in so many words, "you have
> to make EVs."  Now, maybe EVs are the only and/or best way to accomplish
> what the laws require of them, but that's not the same thing.  
>
> If GM wants to develop wind-up cars or wind-powered cars or flywheel-storage
> cars or whatever cars, and they accomplish the same regulatory ends with
> these approaches, nothing's stopping them (except perhaps issues of
> practicality and/or marketability).
>
>> I think new companies need to start up making electric vehicles and
>> just let Detroit slowly die like Kodak.
>
> There I agree 100%.  There's a reason that IBM, Remington Rand, and
> Burroughs weren't the ones who developed the first practical personal
> computers.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

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Re: Chelsea Sexton on NPR talks about EV's

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Ok, getting really off topic, but the IBM PC came after Microsoft
determined it was a useful personal device on its own. Orignally, IBM
considered it as a data entry machine, to be used only with mainframes.
They had another name for it which I can't remember. It was only after
they saw how successful Microsoft was becoming selling DOS for these
machines that they changed their tune.

Peri

------ Original Message ------
From: "John Lussmyer via EV" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>; "EVDL
Administrator" <[hidden email]>
Cc:
Sent: 08-Mar-17 10:57:59 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Chelsea Sexton on NPR talks about EV's

>On Wed Mar 08 09:58:47 PST 2017 [hidden email] said:
>>There I agree 100%.  There's a reason that IBM, Remington Rand, and
>>Burroughs weren't the ones who developed the first practical personal
>>computers.
>
>You mean, like the IBM PC?  :-)
>
>
>--
>
>Worlds only All Electric F-250 truck!
>http://john.casadelgato.com/Electric-Vehicles/1995-Ford-F-250
>
>_______________________________________________
>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>

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Re: Chelsea Sexton on NPR talks about EV's

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On Mar 8, 2017, at 10:57 AM, John Lussmyer via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Wed Mar 08 09:58:47 PST 2017 [hidden email] said:
>> There I agree 100%.  There's a reason that IBM, Remington Rand, and
>> Burroughs weren't the ones who developed the first practical personal
>> computers.
>
> You mean, like the IBM PC?  :-)

Apple was first by about 4 years.
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OT / Re: Chelsea Sexton on NPR talks about EV's

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
GM is big enough to sit on their backsides until they are ready and even fail a few times before they get it right but put the ‘GM brand’ on an electric car and many many people will see it as ‘real’ and begin to buy them.  I am seeing a waiting list for the BOLT here in Vancouver.  People are seeing this as real now, a notch better than what’s currently available and with GM service available it’s a safe option.  I hope the Tesla 3 gets out in large numbers as that will definitely put pressure on the mainstream manufacturers but the likes of GM can go now or later and still be relevant regardless of timing.

This is getting off topic but I think you are a little off.  The ‘term’ IBM PC was not the original designation - it was the IBM 5120.  The name IBM PC was more a popular attribution but never the less it was the same machine.  And yes, IBM didn’t really see it as a home computer when it was initially introduced but it is the progenitor to all the versions and clones that came after.  It was their name on the product that made it a must have and a must copy and then when Lotus released Lotus 1-2-3 that made it competitive with VisiCalc on the Apple II.  After that businesses and then home users went with the name and the IBM PC become the defacto go-to machine.  This probably would have happened anyway regardless of Microsofts involvement.  Microsoft did capitalize on this and has done very well but I personally don’t think they were the direct cause.  IBM’s failure in all this was not to patent some of the hardware design and to not sign Microsoft to an exclusivity agreement which let the market get away from them and then inertia made it impossible to develop a better hardware or operating systems for the now fractured and ubiquitous IBM PC (clone) market.

Lawrence

> On Mar 8, 2017, at 12:41, Peri Hartman via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Ok, getting really off topic, but the IBM PC came after Microsoft determined it was a useful personal device on its own. Orignally, IBM considered it as a data entry machine, to be used only with mainframes. They had another name for it which I can't remember. It was only after they saw how successful Microsoft was becoming selling DOS for these machines that they changed their tune.
>
> Peri
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "John Lussmyer via EV" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>; "EVDL Administrator" <[hidden email]>
> Cc:
> Sent: 08-Mar-17 10:57:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Chelsea Sexton on NPR talks about EV's
>
>> On Wed Mar 08 09:58:47 PST 2017 [hidden email] said:
>>> There I agree 100%.  There's a reason that IBM, Remington Rand, and
>>> Burroughs weren't the ones who developed the first practical personal
>>> computers.
>>
>> You mean, like the IBM PC?  :-)
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Worlds only All Electric F-250 truck! http://john.casadelgato.com/Electric-Vehicles/1995-Ford-F-250
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

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Re: Chelsea Sexton on NPR talks about EV's

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Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

> On Mar 8, 2017, at 10:57 AM, John Lussmyer via EV<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>
>> On Wed Mar 08 09:58:47 PST 2017 [hidden email] said:
>>> There I agree 100%.  There's a reason that IBM, Remington Rand, and
>>> Burroughs weren't the ones who developed the first practical personal
>>> computers.
>>
>> You mean, like the IBM PC?  :-)
>
> Apple was first by about 4 years.

IBM certainly wasn't the first personal computer. Neither was Apple. As with any
"first", you have to define your terms or you get lots of different answers.

Before Apple was the Altair 8800 (1975)
Before that was the MCM/70 (1973)
Before that was the Kenbak-1 (1971)

This could go on and on...
--
Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the
complicated simple. -- Charles Mingus
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: Chelsea Sexton on NPR talks about EV's

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The first part of this is off topic, but I'll eventually bring it back to
EVs, so hang on.  

Many folks here probably know about the part that IBM played in early PCs,
but some may not realize that IBM was pretty late to the small computer
party.  The IBM PC didn't hit the market until the summer of 1981.  Apple
(1976), Commodore (1977), Radio Shack TRS-80 (1977), and Atari (1979) were
all on the market with small computers well before IBM.  

Even these weren't the first.  There were also many much smaller companies
that built microcomputers in the mid- to late-1970s, while IBM was busy
pushing mainframes. Probably the most famous is Altair (1974).  Others I
remember are Ohio Scientific, North Star, Cromemco, Morrow, Heathkit, and
Compupro.  

The small companies were definitely the innovators, but other big companies
got into micros well before IBM, including Olivetti, Siemens, and Sharp,
with some modest success.  

The way these companies solved the problem of operating systems is
interesting and maybe instructive for EVs.  Some of them wrote their own,
but in the 1970s, quite a few used CP/M from Digital Research.  CP/M-86
(ported to the 8086) was also an option for the original IBM PC.  However
(IIRC), it cost $200 against $80 for PC-DOS, so guess which one won out.

At the time, Microsoft was a small operation.  IBM chose them to adapt QDOS
to the PC, but IBM didn't buy exclusuve rights to the OS.  Nor did they lock
down their design.  They actually published the BIOS source in the PC
service manual.  

It probably would still have happened even if they tried to keep all this
proprietary, but in any case, other companies (many overseas) developed work-
alike hardware and BIOS code, in many cases with help from their
governments.  They (or their users) bought generic MS-DOS from Microsoft.  
The "clones" pretty much buried IBM, which eventually gave up the PC
business.

Consider: EVs are reportedly given relatively high priority in China right
now.  Assuming GM keeps building Volts and Bolts, will China do to GM what
Taiwan did to IBM?  Just a thought.

The original IBM PC was a so-so machine, partly because it was rushed to
market and partly because IBM's execs didn't really think it would go
anywhere.  Among other compromises, IBM used the cheap version of the Intel
8086, the 8088, with 16-bit internal architecture but an 8-bit external bus.

But even with its weaknesses, the IBM PC caught on.   Partly this was brand
reputation.  The saying in business used to be "Nobody ever got fired for
buying IBM."  

But the major reason for its success was the spreadsheet Lotus 123, which
was a big improvement on Visicalc.  

The "micro mantra" was "pick your software, then choose the hardware that
runs it."  Big-bucks execs who were annoyed with their data processing (DP)
departments' slow response when they wanted information could have it at
their desks. Lotus was the software they wanted, so the PC (and later its
clones) was the hardware they bought.  It gave them control over the
information they needed.

So the IBM PC (and later its clones) solved a problem and improved its
owners' work lives.  (And DP/IT has been clawing back that control ever
since, but that's another issue.)

In one way the Nissan Leaf, Mitsu Imiev, and maybe the Renault Zoe have
parallels to the IBM PC.  They're kind of "meh" as EVs go, but they
"legitimize" the EV business, or at least try to.  

Where this parallel breaks down is that microcomputers and PCs solved a
problem without having to compete against mainframes and minis.  They found
a different niche.  

OTOH, most EVs keep trying to compete against ICEVs head to head.  And most
of the problems EV solve don't directly and profoundly affect people who buy
vehicles.  

EVs do have the potential to cost less than ICEVs, both to buy and to
operate.  But so far the automakers aren't trying very hard to make them
cost less, and erasing their running cost advantages wouldn't take much,
with legislators in the automakers' pockets.  Thanks mostly to lobbying by
billionaires with ties to petroleum, some US states are already making EV
drivers pay extra taxes.  (No good deed goes unpunished.)

The other parallel you see a lot is Apple to Tesla.  I think that one has
more foundation.  Teslas are fast, high tech cars.  They don't exactly solve
a vexing problem, but for a particular kind of driver/owner, they do have a
distinct and palpable advantage over their ICEV counterparts.  

Execs happy with your desktop PCs, meet drivers with the EV grin.

As it stands, though, if you take away the regulatory incentives that
promote EVs over ICEVs as a public good, EVs' competitiveness will weaken
even among Tesla buyers.  For "family car" EVs, demand could fall off the
cliff, pretty much leaving Tesla and the high performance market as the US
"EV island."

What could prevent or ameliorate that is if one or more of the mainstream
manufacturers broke with the rest.  Nissan, for example, might decide to
forge ahead with their EVs, and arrive at economy of scale where their EVs
are as profitable as GM's big ICEV trucks.  If EV incentives survive in
Europe and Asia, that could help this process.  

I know one thing for sure.  The automakers whining to the US government and
abandoning EVs will be left behind.  It'll be just like when Nissan and
Toyota kicked their butts with small cars in the wake of the 1970s fuel
shortages.

It would be nice to think that other EV companies could "pull a Tesla," but
how likely is that?  Note that most of the infant microcomputer companies
from the late 1970s and early 1980s are long gone, and so are the EV
builders (mostly conversion shops) from the same era.

Jobs and Wozniak famously started Apple in a garage with a few hundred
bucks. Many of the other computer innovators of the late 1970s and early
1980s started on shoestrings, too.  The barrier to entry was low.  And
still, most of them flopped.

The barrier to entry in vehicles is MUCH higher, for many reasons.  Unlike
Jobs and Woz, Elon Musk did NOT start Tesla in his garage, and he had to
invest a chunk of his Paypal fortune to do it.

Tesla is the scrappy outsider that is shaking up the auto industry with EVs.
But their long term success isn't guaranteed.  The more market share they
take from the traditional automakers, the more the big guys will fight back.
Detroit and Tokyo have a pile of money, which in the US buys political
influience.  

I hope Tesla hangs in there -- I think we all do -- but they still have a
tough road ahead.  They may look like Apple in some ways, but t's not a
given that they'll succeed long-term the same way Apple has.  Still, I think
they're our best chance to see EVs kept alive here in the US through the
next decade.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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