Chevy Bolt charge times with a level 3 charger

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Chevy Bolt charge times with a level 3 charger

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Does anyone know the realistic charging time for the Bolt using a level 3
charger?  Say, the time to 80% charge and the time to 100% charge?  I have
heard that the charging rate for the Bolt is rather slow but I have not
heard any details.

Thanks,

--
Larry Gales
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@50kW: Chevy Bolt charge times with a level 3 charger

brucedp5
This post was updated on .
When people talk of performance EVs, they usually forget about performance charging.
I have always had a keen interest in quick charging even in the old (90's) days of PbSO4. I had 6 chargers on-board with their outputs tied in parallel. With all of them on, I could push 22+kW into my pack (I had the precursor of a l3 charging ability).

GM bullied Euro automakers into going their way away from using CHAdeMO to using ccs combo l3 DC.
GM's Bolt EV has a maximum l3 charging ability of 80kW. Whereas most public l3 EVSE only offer 50kW.
When you read GM's pages, they spec a l3 80kW charge time.

I suggest you read,
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1109714_more-details-on-fast-charging-rate-in-2017-chevy-bolt-ev-electric-car

 and it's source,
https://bro05.blogspot.ca/2017/03/fast-charging-experiences-with-bolt.html

The charging rates are broken down to what a Bolt driver can expect from a public l3 ccs EVSE.

If the ambient temps are optimal, the 0 to 50% SOC will be the highest charging rate.
The 50% to 80%SOC will progressively taper slower, until at the 80% most eVgo L3 EVSE will shut off (some eVgo l2 EVSE just shut off after a set period of time, so to fully recharge a 60kWh pack you have to monitor that charging session, and run out to restart it again if it clicks off).

Other ccs combo EVSE will allow you to charge at a tapered/slower rate to 100%, but really at 80%SOC you really ought to move out of the l3 EVSE spot and to a l2 EVSE spot if you feel you really need to charge to 100%SOC.

Charging at l2, I suggest you read
http://www.chevybolt.org/forum/82-charging-batteries/7138-charging-opinions-long-time-ev-user.html

My 80%SOC to 100%SOC recharge time guesstimate:
A Bolt EV has a 60kWh pack, * 20% = 12kWh. L2 charging at 6kW, will be (12/6=) 2hours + a 1 hour fudge factor for tapering and balancing. I would guess about 3 hours on a l2-6kW EVSE.

With today's larger amount of public L3 EVSE available, the fastest recharging method is to only l3 charge to 80%SOC, unplug, and hit the highway to the next L3, charge to 80%SOC, ... repeat (never charging to 100%SOC unless you had to because of a large EVSE gap ahead). After being on the road with multiple l3 charges, a slower charge while you sleep overnight will help balance/stiffen your EV pack.

BTW, Tesla drivers have shown, the best method of re-conditioning your pack after multiple l3 charging sessions (in their case using superchargers), was to come home near 10%SOC and l2 charge overnight. They reported it took a long time to recharge, but it made the EV pack stiffer, and helped reset the guessometer.




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
http://evdl.org/evln/


{brucedp.neocities.org}
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Re: @50kW: Chevy Bolt charge times with a level 3 charger

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I don't know what stiffen the pack means. Sounds made up.

I did watch my car charge on a chademo charger though. I had 15 miles range showing when it started. It said 27 minutes to charge. It started at 100 amps. After about 8 minutes I was up to a 60% charge and it was charging at 48 amps. It had steadily dropped as it charger. Not sure why they do this but I suppose they don't want to overheat the cells.

I don't believe it's necessary based on my testing of LiFePO4 but maybe these other chemistries heat more rapidly. At any rate chademo doesn't use consistent power to charge if they did it would be much faster. I don't know if ccs does the same thing.

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 21, 2017, at 4:49 AM, brucedp5 via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> When people talk of performance EVs, they usually forget about performance
> charging.
> I have always had a keen interest in quick charging even in the old (90's)
> days of PbSO4. I had 6 chargers on-board with their output tied in parallel.
> With all of them on I could push 22+kW into my pack (I had the fore runner
> of a l3 charging ability).
>
> GM bullied Euro automakers into going their way away from using CHAdeMO to
> using ccs combo l3 DC.
> GM's Bolt as a maximum l3 charging ability of 80kW. Where most public l2
> EVSE only offer 50kW.
> When you read GM's pages, they spec a 80kW time.
>
> I suggest you read
>
> http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1109714_more-details-on-fast-charging-rate-in-2017-chevy-bolt-ev-electric-car
>
> and it's source
>
> https://bro05.blogspot.ca/2017/03/fast-charging-experiences-with-bolt.html
>
> The charging rates are broken down to what a Bolt driver can expect from a
> public 50kW l3 ccs EVSE.
>
> If the ambient temps are optimal, the 0 to 50% SOC will be the highest
> charging rate.
> The 50% to 80%SOC will progressively taper slower, until at the 80% most
> eVgo L3 EVSE will shut off.
> Other ccs combo EVSE will allow you to charge at a slow rate to 100%, but
> really at 80%SOC you really ought to move out of the l3 EVSE spot and to a
> l2 EVSE spot if you feel you really need to charge to 100%SOC.
>
> With today's larger amount of public L3 EVSE available, the fastest method
> is to only charge to 80%, unplug and hit the highway to the next L3, charge
> to 80% and repeat (never charging to 100% unless you had to because of the
> large EVSE gap). After being on the road with multiple l3 charges, a slower
> overnight charge while you sleep will help balance/stiffen your pack.
>
> Tesla drivers have shown, the best method of re-conditioning your pack after
> multiple l3 charging sessions (in their case using superchargers), was to
> come home near 10%SOC and l2 charge overnight. They reported it took a long
> time, but it made the pack stiffer, and helped reset the guessometer.
>
>
>
>
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
> http://evdl.org/evln/
>
>
> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Chevy-Bolt-charge-times-with-a-level-3-charger-tp4686787p4686793.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

_______________________________________________
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Re: @50kW: Chevy Bolt charge times with a level 3 charger

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Paul,
Were you charging Leaf or Bolt?
I charged my Leaf twice at EMW's CHAdeMO fast charger which can go up to
120A
And I too noticed that after a short initial max power charge, it starts
to taper.
I had my LeafSpy Pro display the cell voltages and it is easy to see
that the reason
That the Leaf is tapering the charging by the CHAdeMO station (the
station will
Happily provide 120A all day long) is because the Leaf BMS sees a cell
approach
The high voltage cutoff (approx. 4.12V) and will tell the CHAdeMO
station to cut back.
With the cells rising higher in SoC, the current drops to keep the cell
at or below the
High voltage cutoff.

Hope this clarifies,
Cor.

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of paul dove via
EV
Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2017 4:14 AM
To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] @50kW: Chevy Bolt charge times with a level 3
charger

I don't know what stiffen the pack means. Sounds made up.

I did watch my car charge on a chademo charger though. I had 15 miles
range showing when it started. It said 27 minutes to charge. It started
at 100 amps. After about 8 minutes I was up to a 60% charge and it was
charging at 48 amps. It had steadily dropped as it charger. Not sure why
they do this but I suppose they don't want to overheat the cells.

I don't believe it's necessary based on my testing of LiFePO4 but maybe
these other chemistries heat more rapidly. At any rate chademo doesn't
use consistent power to charge if they did it would be much faster. I
don't know if ccs does the same thing.

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 21, 2017, at 4:49 AM, brucedp5 via EV <[hidden email]>
wrote:
>
> When people talk of performance EVs, they usually forget about
> performance charging.
> I have always had a keen interest in quick charging even in the old
> (90's) days of PbSO4. I had 6 chargers on-board with their output tied
in parallel.

> With all of them on I could push 22+kW into my pack (I had the fore
> runner of a l3 charging ability).
>
> GM bullied Euro automakers into going their way away from using
> CHAdeMO to using ccs combo l3 DC.
> GM's Bolt as a maximum l3 charging ability of 80kW. Where most public
> l2 EVSE only offer 50kW.
> When you read GM's pages, they spec a 80kW time.
>
> I suggest you read
>
> http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1109714_more-details-on-fast-charg
> ing-rate-in-2017-chevy-bolt-ev-electric-car
>
> and it's source
>
> https://bro05.blogspot.ca/2017/03/fast-charging-experiences-with-bolt.
> html
>
> The charging rates are broken down to what a Bolt driver can expect
> from a public 50kW l3 ccs EVSE.
>
> If the ambient temps are optimal, the 0 to 50% SOC will be the highest

> charging rate.
> The 50% to 80%SOC will progressively taper slower, until at the 80%
> most eVgo L3 EVSE will shut off.
> Other ccs combo EVSE will allow you to charge at a slow rate to 100%,
> but really at 80%SOC you really ought to move out of the l3 EVSE spot
> and to a
> l2 EVSE spot if you feel you really need to charge to 100%SOC.
>
> With today's larger amount of public L3 EVSE available, the fastest
> method is to only charge to 80%, unplug and hit the highway to the
> next L3, charge to 80% and repeat (never charging to 100% unless you
> had to because of the large EVSE gap). After being on the road with
> multiple l3 charges, a slower overnight charge while you sleep will
help balance/stiffen your pack.
>
> Tesla drivers have shown, the best method of re-conditioning your pack

> after multiple l3 charging sessions (in their case using
> superchargers), was to come home near 10%SOC and l2 charge overnight.
> They reported it took a long time, but it made the pack stiffer, and
helped reset the guessometer.

>
>
>
>
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
> http://evdl.org/evln/
>
>
> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Chevy-Bol
> t-charge-times-with-a-level-3-charger-tp4686787p4686793.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag

> racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag
racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

_______________________________________________
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Re: @50kW: Chevy Bolt charge times with a level 3 charger

brucedp5
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
-I don't know what stiffen the pack means-

Perhaps it is an old archaic term bantered about by nedra.com e-racers or eaa folk.

One e-racer on the diy forum sez
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/ev-racing-battery-pack-options-78343.html

-One pack will be stiffer with less sag-


A pack's performance will sag as the SOC is low and or the cells are unbalanced. A stiff pack would be a pack that is charged and balanced (no sagging or mushiness when mashing the accelerator down= best performance).




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
http://evdl.org/evln/


{brucedp.neocities.org}
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Re: @50kW: Chevy Bolt charge times with a level 3 charger

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Paul,
Maybe they confused "balanced" and "stiffened"? I don't know as I did
not read the Tesla driver's experience as there was no link provided.
As far as I know, the Tesla has ~24V modules (blades) with 6 series
connected herds of round cells (approx 6-7 dozen in parallel) and the
BMS only has access to each interconnect point between the cells, so 7
points in each module.
I do not know when the BMS is balancing, so if this only happens during
charging then I can see that a continuous cycle of 1/2 hour fast charges
may not provide enough balancing time to keep all cells properly
balanced, while a slow overnight charge may provide ample time and thus
make all cells behave more in line so there are fewer outliers, which
might resemble a stiffer pack (but it not actually stiffer as the
operation of the  cells is not affected, so they sag exactly as much as
before the balancing - only with less variation between cells!

The Leaf's BMS is powered 24/7 so it balances at all times, which is
also needed since the balancing current is extremely low (10mA)
So for the Leaf it makes no difference if you do a fast or slow charge,
the BMS has exactly as much time to balance (24 hours each day).

Hope this clarifies,
Cor.

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of paul dove via
EV
Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2017 4:14 AM
To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] @50kW: Chevy Bolt charge times with a level 3
charger

I don't know what stiffen the pack means. Sounds made up.

I did watch my car charge on a chademo charger though. I had 15 miles
range showing when it started. It said 27 minutes to charge. It started
at 100 amps. After about 8 minutes I was up to a 60% charge and it was
charging at 48 amps. It had steadily dropped as it charger. Not sure why
they do this but I suppose they don't want to overheat the cells.

I don't believe it's necessary based on my testing of LiFePO4 but maybe
these other chemistries heat more rapidly. At any rate chademo doesn't
use consistent power to charge if they did it would be much faster. I
don't know if ccs does the same thing.

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 21, 2017, at 4:49 AM, brucedp5 via EV <[hidden email]>
wrote:
>
> When people talk of performance EVs, they usually forget about
> performance charging.
> I have always had a keen interest in quick charging even in the old
> (90's) days of PbSO4. I had 6 chargers on-board with their output tied
in parallel.

> With all of them on I could push 22+kW into my pack (I had the fore
> runner of a l3 charging ability).
>
> GM bullied Euro automakers into going their way away from using
> CHAdeMO to using ccs combo l3 DC.
> GM's Bolt as a maximum l3 charging ability of 80kW. Where most public
> l2 EVSE only offer 50kW.
> When you read GM's pages, they spec a 80kW time.
>
> I suggest you read
>
> http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1109714_more-details-on-fast-charg
> ing-rate-in-2017-chevy-bolt-ev-electric-car
>
> and it's source
>
> https://bro05.blogspot.ca/2017/03/fast-charging-experiences-with-bolt.
> html
>
> The charging rates are broken down to what a Bolt driver can expect
> from a public 50kW l3 ccs EVSE.
>
> If the ambient temps are optimal, the 0 to 50% SOC will be the highest

> charging rate.
> The 50% to 80%SOC will progressively taper slower, until at the 80%
> most eVgo L3 EVSE will shut off.
> Other ccs combo EVSE will allow you to charge at a slow rate to 100%,
> but really at 80%SOC you really ought to move out of the l3 EVSE spot
> and to a
> l2 EVSE spot if you feel you really need to charge to 100%SOC.
>
> With today's larger amount of public L3 EVSE available, the fastest
> method is to only charge to 80%, unplug and hit the highway to the
> next L3, charge to 80% and repeat (never charging to 100% unless you
> had to because of the large EVSE gap). After being on the road with
> multiple l3 charges, a slower overnight charge while you sleep will
help balance/stiffen your pack.
>
> Tesla drivers have shown, the best method of re-conditioning your pack

> after multiple l3 charging sessions (in their case using
> superchargers), was to come home near 10%SOC and l2 charge overnight.
> They reported it took a long time, but it made the pack stiffer, and
helped reset the guessometer.

>
>
>
>
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
> http://evdl.org/evln/
>
>
> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Chevy-Bol
> t-charge-times-with-a-level-3-charger-tp4686787p4686793.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag

> racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag
racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

_______________________________________________
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Re: @50kW: Chevy Bolt charge times with a level 3 charger

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
It is a Mitsubishi i-MiEV.
I can't imagine a cell approaching 4.12 after 30% charge.


      From: Cor van de Water via EV <[hidden email]>
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
 Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2017 3:45 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] @50kW: Chevy Bolt charge times with a level 3 charger
   
Paul,
Were you charging Leaf or Bolt?
I charged my Leaf twice at EMW's CHAdeMO fast charger which can go up to
120A
And I too noticed that after a short initial max power charge, it starts
to taper.
I had my LeafSpy Pro display the cell voltages and it is easy to see
that the reason
That the Leaf is tapering the charging by the CHAdeMO station (the
station will
Happily provide 120A all day long) is because the Leaf BMS sees a cell
approach
The high voltage cutoff (approx. 4.12V) and will tell the CHAdeMO
station to cut back.
With the cells rising higher in SoC, the current drops to keep the cell
at or below the
High voltage cutoff.

Hope this clarifies,
Cor.

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of paul dove via
EV
Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2017 4:14 AM
To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] @50kW: Chevy Bolt charge times with a level 3
charger

I don't know what stiffen the pack means. Sounds made up.

I did watch my car charge on a chademo charger though. I had 15 miles
range showing when it started. It said 27 minutes to charge. It started
at 100 amps. After about 8 minutes I was up to a 60% charge and it was
charging at 48 amps. It had steadily dropped as it charger. Not sure why
they do this but I suppose they don't want to overheat the cells.

I don't believe it's necessary based on my testing of LiFePO4 but maybe
these other chemistries heat more rapidly. At any rate chademo doesn't
use consistent power to charge if they did it would be much faster. I
don't know if ccs does the same thing.

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 21, 2017, at 4:49 AM, brucedp5 via EV <[hidden email]>
wrote:
>
> When people talk of performance EVs, they usually forget about
> performance charging.
> I have always had a keen interest in quick charging even in the old
> (90's) days of PbSO4. I had 6 chargers on-board with their output tied
in parallel.

> With all of them on I could push 22+kW into my pack (I had the fore
> runner of a l3 charging ability).
>
> GM bullied Euro automakers into going their way away from using
> CHAdeMO to using ccs combo l3 DC.
> GM's Bolt as a maximum l3 charging ability of 80kW. Where most public
> l2 EVSE only offer 50kW.
> When you read GM's pages, they spec a 80kW time.
>
> I suggest you read
>
> http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1109714_more-details-on-fast-charg
> ing-rate-in-2017-chevy-bolt-ev-electric-car
>
> and it's source
>
> https://bro05.blogspot.ca/2017/03/fast-charging-experiences-with-bolt.
> html
>
> The charging rates are broken down to what a Bolt driver can expect
> from a public 50kW l3 ccs EVSE.
>
> If the ambient temps are optimal, the 0 to 50% SOC will be the highest

> charging rate.
> The 50% to 80%SOC will progressively taper slower, until at the 80%
> most eVgo L3 EVSE will shut off.
> Other ccs combo EVSE will allow you to charge at a slow rate to 100%,
> but really at 80%SOC you really ought to move out of the l3 EVSE spot
> and to a
> l2 EVSE spot if you feel you really need to charge to 100%SOC.
>
> With today's larger amount of public L3 EVSE available, the fastest
> method is to only charge to 80%, unplug and hit the highway to the
> next L3, charge to 80% and repeat (never charging to 100% unless you
> had to because of the large EVSE gap). After being on the road with
> multiple l3 charges, a slower overnight charge while you sleep will
help balance/stiffen your pack.
>
> Tesla drivers have shown, the best method of re-conditioning your pack

> after multiple l3 charging sessions (in their case using
> superchargers), was to come home near 10%SOC and l2 charge overnight.
> They reported it took a long time, but it made the pack stiffer, and
helped reset the guessometer.

>
>
>
>
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
> http://evdl.org/evln/
>
>
> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Chevy-Bol
> t-charge-times-with-a-level-3-charger-tp4686787p4686793.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag

> racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag
racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

_______________________________________________
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Re: @50kW: Chevy Bolt charge times with a level 3 charger

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
This thread has providing some useful information about charging, but I am
still left uncertain about the amount of time needed to charge the Chevy
Bolt at a level 3 station.  I am considering getting a Bolt but before I do
I need to have some (average) idea as to how long it will take.  I realize
that will vary with the temperature and initial state of charge, but some
rough average time would be useful.

So, to go from  10% to 80% charge, are we looking at, say, 90 minutes, or 2
hours, or what?

Thanks,

On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 5:35 PM, Cor van de Water via EV <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Paul,
> Maybe they confused "balanced" and "stiffened"? I don't know as I did
> not read the Tesla driver's experience as there was no link provided.
> As far as I know, the Tesla has ~24V modules (blades) with 6 series
> connected herds of round cells (approx 6-7 dozen in parallel) and the
> BMS only has access to each interconnect point between the cells, so 7
> points in each module.
> I do not know when the BMS is balancing, so if this only happens during
> charging then I can see that a continuous cycle of 1/2 hour fast charges
> may not provide enough balancing time to keep all cells properly
> balanced, while a slow overnight charge may provide ample time and thus
> make all cells behave more in line so there are fewer outliers, which
> might resemble a stiffer pack (but it not actually stiffer as the
> operation of the  cells is not affected, so they sag exactly as much as
> before the balancing - only with less variation between cells!
>
> The Leaf's BMS is powered 24/7 so it balances at all times, which is
> also needed since the balancing current is extremely low (10mA)
> So for the Leaf it makes no difference if you do a fast or slow charge,
> the BMS has exactly as much time to balance (24 hours each day).
>
> Hope this clarifies,
> Cor.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of paul dove via
> EV
> Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2017 4:14 AM
> To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] @50kW: Chevy Bolt charge times with a level 3
> charger
>
> I don't know what stiffen the pack means. Sounds made up.
>
> I did watch my car charge on a chademo charger though. I had 15 miles
> range showing when it started. It said 27 minutes to charge. It started
> at 100 amps. After about 8 minutes I was up to a 60% charge and it was
> charging at 48 amps. It had steadily dropped as it charger. Not sure why
> they do this but I suppose they don't want to overheat the cells.
>
> I don't believe it's necessary based on my testing of LiFePO4 but maybe
> these other chemistries heat more rapidly. At any rate chademo doesn't
> use consistent power to charge if they did it would be much faster. I
> don't know if ccs does the same thing.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On May 21, 2017, at 4:49 AM, brucedp5 via EV <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > When people talk of performance EVs, they usually forget about
> > performance charging.
> > I have always had a keen interest in quick charging even in the old
> > (90's) days of PbSO4. I had 6 chargers on-board with their output tied
> in parallel.
> > With all of them on I could push 22+kW into my pack (I had the fore
> > runner of a l3 charging ability).
> >
> > GM bullied Euro automakers into going their way away from using
> > CHAdeMO to using ccs combo l3 DC.
> > GM's Bolt as a maximum l3 charging ability of 80kW. Where most public
> > l2 EVSE only offer 50kW.
> > When you read GM's pages, they spec a 80kW time.
> >
> > I suggest you read
> >
> > http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1109714_more-details-on-fast-charg
> > ing-rate-in-2017-chevy-bolt-ev-electric-car
> >
> > and it's source
> >
> > https://bro05.blogspot.ca/2017/03/fast-charging-experiences-with-bolt.
> > html
> >
> > The charging rates are broken down to what a Bolt driver can expect
> > from a public 50kW l3 ccs EVSE.
> >
> > If the ambient temps are optimal, the 0 to 50% SOC will be the highest
>
> > charging rate.
> > The 50% to 80%SOC will progressively taper slower, until at the 80%
> > most eVgo L3 EVSE will shut off.
> > Other ccs combo EVSE will allow you to charge at a slow rate to 100%,
> > but really at 80%SOC you really ought to move out of the l3 EVSE spot
> > and to a
> > l2 EVSE spot if you feel you really need to charge to 100%SOC.
> >
> > With today's larger amount of public L3 EVSE available, the fastest
> > method is to only charge to 80%, unplug and hit the highway to the
> > next L3, charge to 80% and repeat (never charging to 100% unless you
> > had to because of the large EVSE gap). After being on the road with
> > multiple l3 charges, a slower overnight charge while you sleep will
> help balance/stiffen your pack.
> >
> > Tesla drivers have shown, the best method of re-conditioning your pack
>
> > after multiple l3 charging sessions (in their case using
> > superchargers), was to come home near 10%SOC and l2 charge overnight.
> > They reported it took a long time, but it made the pack stiffer, and
> helped reset the guessometer.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
> > http://evdl.org/evln/
> >
> >
> > {brucedp.neocities.org}
> >
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> > http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Chevy-Bol
> > t-charge-times-with-a-level-3-charger-tp4686787p4686793.html
> > Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
> > _______________________________________________
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> > Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag
>
> > racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag
> racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
> group/NEDRA)
>
>


--
Larry Gales
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Re: @50kW: Chevy Bolt charge times with a level 3 charger

brucedp5
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
-confused "balanced" and "stiffened"? I don't know as I did
not read the Tesla driver's experience as there was no link-

Instead of stiff, think the experience of a perky, or nicely performing pack which may equate to a fully charged and balanced pack.


The [dated] mid 2015 Tesla experience was one I already posted, see
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Offset-Supercharging-degradation-with-pack-balancing-tp4677028.html

Note, in that post they did not use the term stiff, nor perky. They do mention the term balancing repeatedly.




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
http://evdl.org/evln/


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Re: @50kW: Chevy Bolt charge times with a level 3 charger

brucedp5
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
-uncertain about the amount of time needed to charge the Chevy
Bolt at a level 3 50kWh EVSE, from  10% to 80% charge, are we looking at, say, 90 minutes, or 2
hours, or what?-


I strongly suggest you join a Bolt forum
https://www.google.com/search?q=bolt+forum

 and pose your questions. They are most likely to have many direct experiences with a Bolt EV.
https://www.google.com/search?q=how+long+to+charge+a+60kWh+pack+at+50kW
https://www.google.com/search?q=bolt+forum+charge+times

Fasten is in the Euro business of l3 quick charging and has an interesting page to explore, see
https://fastned.nl/en/blog/post/how-fast-charging-works


After viewing the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU_otU6BuwM
(compares charge times of a Tesla, three different ways)

to answer the above question, IMO: it will take 90mins at best and 2 hrs on average (but that is only my guess, go ask on a Bolt forum).

Note: jump to the 9min point on the video to see the current taper at 80%SOC, and the charge stops at the 1hr+44min point. See that charging a Tesla 60kWh using a CHAdeMO adapter did not provide a full 50kW charging rate, so the video will only estimate what your charge time will be.

Also, if charging time is critical to you, as if you will be an EV road-warrior (lots of long EV trips), consider not getting a Bolt but a used Tesla 60D or 75D that is old enough to allow you to use supercharging for free. It will be faster and less of an impact on your time constraints.
Same as with a Bolt, if you do consider a Tesla, pose your Tesla questions on the Tesla forum for many direct experience answers.



For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
http://evdl.org/evln/


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Re: @50kW: Chevy Bolt charge times with a level 3 charger

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Larry, GM advertises 90 miles range in 30 minutes. But like I said about my Mitsubishi the car regulated the current based in the battery management system. Most of them slow down as they approach full. But if the range of a bolt is 240 miles or whatever the advertise, then it would take 2 hours and 40 minutes. So I would say that's your best time but likely slower from empty to full since it will back off the current at some point.

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 21, 2017, at 9:53 PM, Larry Gales via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> This thread has providing some useful information about charging, but I am
> still left uncertain about the amount of time needed to charge the Chevy
> Bolt at a level 3 station.  I am considering getting a Bolt but before I do
> I need to have some (average) idea as to how long it will take.  I realize
> that will vary with the temperature and initial state of charge, but some
> rough average time would be useful.
>
> So, to go from  10% to 80% charge, are we looking at, say, 90 minutes, or 2
> hours, or what?
>
> Thanks,
>
> On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 5:35 PM, Cor van de Water via EV <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Paul,
>> Maybe they confused "balanced" and "stiffened"? I don't know as I did
>> not read the Tesla driver's experience as there was no link provided.
>> As far as I know, the Tesla has ~24V modules (blades) with 6 series
>> connected herds of round cells (approx 6-7 dozen in parallel) and the
>> BMS only has access to each interconnect point between the cells, so 7
>> points in each module.
>> I do not know when the BMS is balancing, so if this only happens during
>> charging then I can see that a continuous cycle of 1/2 hour fast charges
>> may not provide enough balancing time to keep all cells properly
>> balanced, while a slow overnight charge may provide ample time and thus
>> make all cells behave more in line so there are fewer outliers, which
>> might resemble a stiffer pack (but it not actually stiffer as the
>> operation of the  cells is not affected, so they sag exactly as much as
>> before the balancing - only with less variation between cells!
>>
>> The Leaf's BMS is powered 24/7 so it balances at all times, which is
>> also needed since the balancing current is extremely low (10mA)
>> So for the Leaf it makes no difference if you do a fast or slow charge,
>> the BMS has exactly as much time to balance (24 hours each day).
>>
>> Hope this clarifies,
>> Cor.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of paul dove via
>> EV
>> Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2017 4:14 AM
>> To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] @50kW: Chevy Bolt charge times with a level 3
>> charger
>>
>> I don't know what stiffen the pack means. Sounds made up.
>>
>> I did watch my car charge on a chademo charger though. I had 15 miles
>> range showing when it started. It said 27 minutes to charge. It started
>> at 100 amps. After about 8 minutes I was up to a 60% charge and it was
>> charging at 48 amps. It had steadily dropped as it charger. Not sure why
>> they do this but I suppose they don't want to overheat the cells.
>>
>> I don't believe it's necessary based on my testing of LiFePO4 but maybe
>> these other chemistries heat more rapidly. At any rate chademo doesn't
>> use consistent power to charge if they did it would be much faster. I
>> don't know if ccs does the same thing.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On May 21, 2017, at 4:49 AM, brucedp5 via EV <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> When people talk of performance EVs, they usually forget about
>>> performance charging.
>>> I have always had a keen interest in quick charging even in the old
>>> (90's) days of PbSO4. I had 6 chargers on-board with their output tied
>> in parallel.
>>> With all of them on I could push 22+kW into my pack (I had the fore
>>> runner of a l3 charging ability).
>>>
>>> GM bullied Euro automakers into going their way away from using
>>> CHAdeMO to using ccs combo l3 DC.
>>> GM's Bolt as a maximum l3 charging ability of 80kW. Where most public
>>> l2 EVSE only offer 50kW.
>>> When you read GM's pages, they spec a 80kW time.
>>>
>>> I suggest you read
>>>
>>> http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1109714_more-details-on-fast-charg
>>> ing-rate-in-2017-chevy-bolt-ev-electric-car
>>>
>>> and it's source
>>>
>>> https://bro05.blogspot.ca/2017/03/fast-charging-experiences-with-bolt.
>>> html
>>>
>>> The charging rates are broken down to what a Bolt driver can expect
>>> from a public 50kW l3 ccs EVSE.
>>>
>>> If the ambient temps are optimal, the 0 to 50% SOC will be the highest
>>
>>> charging rate.
>>> The 50% to 80%SOC will progressively taper slower, until at the 80%
>>> most eVgo L3 EVSE will shut off.
>>> Other ccs combo EVSE will allow you to charge at a slow rate to 100%,
>>> but really at 80%SOC you really ought to move out of the l3 EVSE spot
>>> and to a
>>> l2 EVSE spot if you feel you really need to charge to 100%SOC.
>>>
>>> With today's larger amount of public L3 EVSE available, the fastest
>>> method is to only charge to 80%, unplug and hit the highway to the
>>> next L3, charge to 80% and repeat (never charging to 100% unless you
>>> had to because of the large EVSE gap). After being on the road with
>>> multiple l3 charges, a slower overnight charge while you sleep will
>> help balance/stiffen your pack.
>>>
>>> Tesla drivers have shown, the best method of re-conditioning your pack
>>
>>> after multiple l3 charging sessions (in their case using
>>> superchargers), was to come home near 10%SOC and l2 charge overnight.
>>> They reported it took a long time, but it made the pack stiffer, and
>> helped reset the guessometer.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
>>> http://evdl.org/evln/
>>>
>>>
>>> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>>>
>>> --
>>> View this message in context:
>>> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Chevy-Bol
>>> t-charge-times-with-a-level-3-charger-tp4686787p4686793.html
>>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
>> Nabble.com.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag
>>
>>> racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag
>> racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
>> group/NEDRA)
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Larry Gales
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Re: @50kW: Chevy Bolt charge times with a level 3 charger

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by brucedp5
Still sounds like a hold over from lead batteries. I can't imagine the voltage of an unbalanced pack being more than 10 volts loss in voltage. This would not be noticeable.  

Does anyone have real data?

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 22, 2017, at 1:27 AM, brucedp5 via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> -confused "balanced" and "stiffened"? I don't know as I did
> not read the Tesla driver's experience as there was no link-
>
> Instead of stiff, think the experience of a perky, or nicely performing pack
> which may equate to a fully charged and balanced pack.
>
>
> The [dated] mid 2015 Tesla experience was one I already posted, see
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Offset-Supercharging-degradation-with-pack-balancing-tp4677028.html
>
> Note, in that post they did not use the term stiff, nor perky. They do
> mention the term balancing repeatedly.
>
>
>
>
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
> http://evdl.org/evln/
>
>
> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Chevy-Bolt-charge-times-with-a-level-3-charger-tp4686787p4686810.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

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Re: @50kW: Chevy Bolt charge times with a level 3 charger

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list


On 05/22/2017 07:47 AM, paul dove via EV wrote:
> Still sounds like a hold over from lead batteries. I can't imagine the voltage of an unbalanced pack being more than 10 volts loss in voltage. This would not be noticeable.

I agree, it seems inappropriate to talk about "stiffness" from balancing
a lithium pack.  Though, I think Bruce was quoting someone else.  Maybe
Bill Dube will chime in here, but if all cells are well top balanced and
charged to maximum voltage, that amount above "normal" voltage
represents a tiny amount of energy and is gone in the first few seconds
of discharge.  Of course, lithium packs will sag when approaching
discharge rating limits.  But there is very little sag associated with SOC.

Which brings to mind the old "top balance"/"bottom balance" arguments.
Is anyone out there still having good luck with bottom balancing?


Bruce mentioned "guessometer" in a Tesla context.  It is my
understanding that Tesla arrives at an estimated range by applying a
constant, linear scale factor to the estimated remaining energy.  For
normal use, that scale factor is about 285 wh/m.  The driver is properly
left to make allowances for wind, speed, elevation, weather, etc.  The
imiev does apply some guessing based on past data.  They do a fair job
of such guessing.  Leaf, OTHO, does such a terrible job that it is
nearly useless.  I remember my wife calling me on her way home from
picking up the new Leaf: "This thing has lost 15 miles of range in the
first 5 miles traveled.  At this rate, I won't be able to get home.  Are
you prepared to come get me?"  We, of course, learned to mostly ignore
the really crappy instrumentation.

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Re: @50kW: Chevy Bolt charge times with a level 3 charger

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list


> On May 22, 2017, at 9:10 AM, Willie via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Bruce mentioned "guessometer" in a Tesla context.  It is my understanding that Tesla arrives at an estimated range by applying a constant, linear scale factor to the estimated remaining energy.  For normal use, that scale factor is about 285 wh/m.  The driver is properly left to make allowances for wind, speed, elevation, weather, etc.  The imiev does apply some guessing based on past data.  They do a fair job of such guessing.  Leaf, OTHO, does such a terrible job that it is nearly useless.  I remember my wife calling me on her way home from picking up the new Leaf: "This thing has lost 15 miles of range in the first 5 miles traveled.  At this rate, I won't be able to get home.  Are you prepared to come get me?"  We, of course, learned to mostly ignore the really crappy instrumentation.
>

The Bolt however has great instrumentation. It has what they call trend bars that can extend above or below the guessometer. If the current driving mode (speed, slope, acceleration, etc.) will take you farther than the guess, the trend bar will extend above the guess. Doing worse than the guess, the trend bar will extend below the guess.  The state of charge indicator seems linear and accurate.

Ed
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Re: @50kW: Chevy Bolt charge times with a level 3 charger

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list

True for 2011/12 LEAF models.

However the LEAF's guess-o-meter was improved later models. Even better,
a useful battery-percentage-remaining display option was added.


On 5/22/17 10:10 AM, Willie via EV wrote:

> Bruce mentioned "guessometer" in a Tesla context.  It is my
> understanding that Tesla arrives at an estimated range by applying a
> constant, linear scale factor to the estimated remaining energy.  For
> normal use, that scale factor is about 285 wh/m.  The driver is properly
> left to make allowances for wind, speed, elevation, weather, etc.  The
> imiev does apply some guessing based on past data.  They do a fair job
> of such guessing.  Leaf, OTHO, does such a terrible job that it is
> nearly useless.  I remember my wife calling me on her way home from
> picking up the new Leaf: "This thing has lost 15 miles of range in the
> first 5 miles traveled.  At this rate, I won't be able to get home.  Are
> you prepared to come get me?"  We, of course, learned to mostly ignore
> the really crappy instrumentation.
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
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> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>

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Re: @50kW: Chevy Bolt charge times with a level 3 charger

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list


On 05/22/2017 12:09 PM, Jamie K via EV wrote:
>
> True for 2011/12 LEAF models.
>
> However the LEAF's guess-o-meter was improved later models. Even better,
> a useful battery-percentage-remaining display option was added.


A good point!  Also points out the Leaf weakness of not having OTA
software updates ala Tesla.  My Tesla started with a not very useful
fisheye backup camera.  After a few months, lines appeared on the
display that marked the car's path.  You could then tell exactly what
territory the backing car was going to move over.  Also, you used to
have to go the the service center to get new/different tire pressure
sensors programmed.  Like when you had a flat and changed wheels. Now,
you press a button on the display and the TPS thing reprograms itself.
There have been hundreds, or perhaps thousands, of such tweaks.  No
visits to the dealer required.  Nissan tries to get Leaf owners into
dealerships at every opportunity.  I've heard of some Leaf owners being
charged for oil changes during such visits.
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Re: @50kW: Chevy Bolt charge times with a level 3 charger

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Yes, Nissan is terrible about upgrades. I'm several versions behind
because, in order to go to a dealer, I need to take half a day - a lot
of driving and a lot of waiting. Just not worth the time unless
absolutely necessary. Or, maybe, it's a good thing. Perhaps they have
little control over disabling the car :)

Peri

------ Original Message ------
From: "Willie via EV" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Cc:
Sent: 22-May-17 10:40:47 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] @50kW: Chevy Bolt charge times with a level 3
charger

>
>
>On 05/22/2017 12:09 PM, Jamie K via EV wrote:
>>
>>True for 2011/12 LEAF models.
>>
>>However the LEAF's guess-o-meter was improved later models. Even
>>better,
>>a useful battery-percentage-remaining display option was added.
>
>
>A good point!  Also points out the Leaf weakness of not having OTA
>software updates ala Tesla.  My Tesla started with a not very useful
>fisheye backup camera.  After a few months, lines appeared on the
>display that marked the car's path.  You could then tell exactly what
>territory the backing car was going to move over.  Also, you used to
>have to go the the service center to get new/different tire pressure
>sensors programmed.  Like when you had a flat and changed wheels. Now,
>you press a button on the display and the TPS thing reprograms itself.
>There have been hundreds, or perhaps thousands, of such tweaks.  No
>visits to the dealer required.  Nissan tries to get Leaf owners into
>dealerships at every opportunity.  I've heard of some Leaf owners being
>charged for oil changes during such visits.
>_______________________________________________
>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>

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Re: @50kW: Chevy Bolt charge times with a level 3 charger

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list

Haven't been charged for a LEAF oil change, LOL.

They do charge a little for replacing brake fluid every few years, and a
yearly battery check after the first three years. That's about it other
than tires.

There have only been one or two software updates since we got our LEAF.
Like most non-Tesla cars they aren't adding features but they did
address a bug related to passenger air bag detection.

Enjoy your Tesla.


On 5/22/17 11:40 AM, Willie via EV wrote:

> On 05/22/2017 12:09 PM, Jamie K via EV wrote:
>>
>> True for 2011/12 LEAF models.
>>
>> However the LEAF's guess-o-meter was improved later models. Even better,
>> a useful battery-percentage-remaining display option was added.
>
>
> A good point!  Also points out the Leaf weakness of not having OTA
> software updates ala Tesla.  My Tesla started with a not very useful
> fisheye backup camera.  After a few months, lines appeared on the
> display that marked the car's path.  You could then tell exactly what
> territory the backing car was going to move over.  Also, you used to
> have to go the the service center to get new/different tire pressure
> sensors programmed.  Like when you had a flat and changed wheels. Now,
> you press a button on the display and the TPS thing reprograms itself.
> There have been hundreds, or perhaps thousands, of such tweaks.  No
> visits to the dealer required.  Nissan tries to get Leaf owners into
> dealerships at every opportunity.  I've heard of some Leaf owners being
> charged for oil changes during such visits.
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>

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Re: @50kW: Chevy Bolt charge times with a level 3 charger

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
There are exceptions, but typically the internal resistance of a
cell/battery reaches a minimum at 100% SOC. Basically, a fully charged,
completely balanced, battery pack is indeed "stiffer".

The notable exception is LiFePO4. The internal resistance of these
particular cells is a very weak function of SOC. They stay "stiff" and
at close to the same voltage for much of their discharge. Only at very
low SOC does the internal resistance rise significantly. The same is
true for very high SOC.

   The typical pack in an OEM EV is Li-Ion metal oxide of some sort.
The  internal resistance is a strong function of SOC (as is the cell
voltage,) and the resistance is at a minimum at 100% SOC, so the pack is
the most "stiff" when at 100% SOC and completely balanced.

On 5/22/2017 5:10 AM, Willie via EV wrote:

>
>
> On 05/22/2017 07:47 AM, paul dove via EV wrote:
>> Still sounds like a hold over from lead batteries. I can't imagine
>> the voltage of an unbalanced pack being more than 10 volts loss in
>> voltage. This would not be noticeable.
>
> I agree, it seems inappropriate to talk about "stiffness" from
> balancing a lithium pack.  Though, I think Bruce was quoting someone
> else.  Maybe Bill Dube will chime in here, but if all cells are well
> top balanced and charged to maximum voltage, that amount above
> "normal" voltage represents a tiny amount of energy and is gone in the
> first few seconds of discharge.  Of course, lithium packs will sag
> when approaching discharge rating limits. But there is very little sag
> associated with SOC.
>
> Which brings to mind the old "top balance"/"bottom balance" arguments.
> Is anyone out there still having good luck with bottom balancing?
>
>
> Bruce mentioned "guessometer" in a Tesla context.  It is my
> understanding that Tesla arrives at an estimated range by applying a
> constant, linear scale factor to the estimated remaining energy.  For
> normal use, that scale factor is about 285 wh/m.  The driver is
> properly left to make allowances for wind, speed, elevation, weather,
> etc.  The imiev does apply some guessing based on past data.  They do
> a fair job of such guessing.  Leaf, OTHO, does such a terrible job
> that it is nearly useless.  I remember my wife calling me on her way
> home from picking up the new Leaf: "This thing has lost 15 miles of
> range in the first 5 miles traveled.  At this rate, I won't be able to
> get home.  Are you prepared to come get me?"  We, of course, learned
> to mostly ignore the really crappy instrumentation.
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: @50kW: Chevy Bolt charge times with a level 3 charger

brucedp5
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list



-charged for a LEAF oil change-

I remember that there were about three instances of EVs being charged by dealerships for an oil change they did not and could not have received. But I only found one instance in the evdl nabble archives. All drivers (EV, pih or ice should check the dealership's bill before paying it):

[dated]
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Always-Read-The-Bill-First-Bogus-Leaf-EV-Oil-Air-Filter-charge-tp4673749.html
EVLN: Always.Read.The.Bill.First>Bogus Leaf-EV Oil&Air-Filter-charge
... one Nissan LEAF owner in the UK got the shock of his life recently when he took his car in for...
Feb 05, 2015

?Why do we need dealerships again?



-I think Bruce was quoting someone else-

Willie is right, I was repeating other people's vernacular/words. That type of inaccuracy could be thought of inappropriate to a precise mind-set (but some people do not think or live their lives that precisely). Inaccurate or inappropriate words can raise some people's ire (or just drive them nuts).
*I thank Bill Dube', for explaining how a pack can be stiff (which means I probably heard that word from the racing folk).


For those that might make the mistake of thinking I only know PbSO4, for the record, I drove NiMH in the GM EV1-gen2, Toyota RAV4-EV-gen1 and in the Honda EV-plus. I also drove li-ion in the Nissan Altra EV
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1036152_nissan-altra-a-look-back-at-the-worlds-first-li-ion-powered-ev

I would sign my life away (to be responsible for any damages of the production EV) so I could have it for a period of time. I would drive them normally, and also after a full charge drive them hard to see how much energy I could use up.

The design and their firmware/software of those vehicles were way behind today's production vehicles. I only perceived a slight loss of performance at the end of their charge (when the pack was at or below 10%SOC). And possibly that perception was my subconscious concern of running out of juice (draining the pack dead).

When I had the 130mi li-ion range Altra, I got it 50%SOC from a local utility PG&E at the SF Cow Palace, the day before the big ride and drive EVent. I plugged it in using the L1 EVSE that came with it. The next morning it was fully charged. All day long I was giving rides driving it hard up the Cow Palace's parking lot ramps to show off the power of the EV (those were the days that everyone still thought EVs were golf carts). I did notice a slight loss of performance at the end of the day with less than 20%SOC left on the Altra's li-ion pack.

Recently, I test drove today's 60kWh li-ion Bolt EV
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Bolt-EV-experience-tp4685003.html

The dealership was not charging it up properly, especially since they were constantly giving test drives in it (the GM dealership was ignorantly treating it like an ice - running it until it is dry attitude). So, for my test drive, the Bolt EV's pack was not fully charged. Even so, when I drove the Bolt hard, demanding acceleration, it did well with no lack of performance. After ending the test drive and pulling in front of the dealership for the next anxious driver to try out, I saw the Bolt EV's pack was at less than 40%SOC according to their guessometer. Keep in mind I only had a very short while to drive the Bolt EV. I had no experience of what the BOLT EV drove like after a long slow overnight l2 charge.

I would like to say, that if that Bolt EV were mine, I would have put it on a long slow L2 charge overnight to give it the TLC I think it richly deserved.




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