Controllers

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Controllers

Jerry Rhodes
Good Morning, this maybe a little OT, but though I would ask.

I have a project that needs a little bigger controller, can I paraell 2 30 amp ones to get the 45 amps I need for the motor?

Thank you

Jerry
ETC...
 
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Re: Controllers

Lee Hart
On 6/10/2012 5:52 AM, Jerry Rhodes wrote:
> I have a project that needs a little bigger controller, can I parallel
> two 30 amp ones to get the 45 amps I need for the motor?

The simple answer is no; get a bigger controller.

the complicated answer is that it is possible; but it all depends on the
type of controller.

If this is the usual PWM DC motor controller, the on/off switching of
the two would have to be synchronized. There is usually no option for
this; it would require some serious reverse-engineering to figure out
how they work, and a connection between them to synchronize them.

Another rather crude route is to split the field of a sesries motor into
two windings. Connect each controller to one of the fields. Connect the
other end of the both fields to the armature as usual. Glenn Roach
called this the "battery blaster" method.

If these are PM motors with no series field, you could do the same thing
with two external inductors of about 0.1-1 millihenries each. The
inductors make each controller think it is driving a separate motor, so
their switching doesn't need to be synchronized.

If it's an AC motor, the only way to parallel controllers is if they are
explicitly designed to parallel. Very few are; certainly no small ones.

If you have a contactor controller, or switched-resistor controller,
parallelling them is easy! Just parallel them, and be sure they switch
steps at the same time.

--
An engineer can do for a nickel what any damn fool can do for a dollar.
        -- Henry Ford
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at earthlink.net

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Re: Controllers

Jay Summet
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On 06/10/2012 01:12 PM, Lee Hart wrote:
> On 6/10/2012 5:52 AM, Jerry Rhodes wrote:
>> I have a project that needs a little bigger controller, can I
>> parallel two 30 amp ones to get the 45 amps I need for the
>> motor?

>
> If this is the usual PWM DC motor controller, the on/off switching
> of the two would have to be synchronized. There is usually no
> option for this; it would require some serious reverse-engineering
> to figure out how they work, and a connection between them to
> synchronize them.


I *think* it should possible to have two DC PWM controllers feed a
very large capacitor, which then feeds the motor. If the capacitor was
large enough, you may not need to synchronize the two controllers...

With a large enough capacitor I think you could have the two PWM's
just feed it at whatever phase they happened to be at.  It would still
be necessary for you to have the throttle input (duty cycle) somewhat
the same for both controllers...

But yes, it's probably easiest to just buy a larger controller.

Jay
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Re: Controllers

Jeffrey Jenkins
Jay Summet wrote
...I *think* it should possible to have two DC PWM controllers feed a
very large capacitor, which then feeds the motor. If the capacitor was
large enough, you may not need to synchronize the two controllers......
No, that's about the worst possible thing you could do. Pretty much all DC and AC motor controllers (current source inverters being the notable exception) expect to work into an inductive load, not a capacitive, nor even a resistive, one.

Generally speaking, you should *never* connect a capacitor across the output terminals of a motor controller.

Note - you can connect a capacitor across the armature terminals, only, of a series DC motor. That is sometimes recommended to reduce EMI/RFI emissions, but in this case the field inductance shields the controller from the capacitive reactance.

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Re: Controllers

Mark Grasser
In reply to this post by Jay Summet
PWM controller 50 amp
http://www.canakit.com/50a-dc-pwm-motor-speed-controller.html


I have seen 60 amp but not sure where today.


Sincerely,
Mark Grasser
 


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Jay Summet
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 1:27 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controllers

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1



On 06/10/2012 01:12 PM, Lee Hart wrote:
> On 6/10/2012 5:52 AM, Jerry Rhodes wrote:
>> I have a project that needs a little bigger controller, can I
>> parallel two 30 amp ones to get the 45 amps I need for the motor?

>
> If this is the usual PWM DC motor controller, the on/off switching of
> the two would have to be synchronized. There is usually no option for
> this; it would require some serious reverse-engineering to figure out
> how they work, and a connection between them to synchronize them.


I *think* it should possible to have two DC PWM controllers feed a very
large capacitor, which then feeds the motor. If the capacitor was large
enough, you may not need to synchronize the two controllers...

With a large enough capacitor I think you could have the two PWM's just feed
it at whatever phase they happened to be at.  It would still be necessary
for you to have the throttle input (duty cycle) somewhat the same for both
controllers...

But yes, it's probably easiest to just buy a larger controller.

Jay
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

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=5r7i
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Controllers

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by Jay Summet
On 6/10/2012 12:26 PM, Jay Summet wrote:
> I *think* it should possible to have two DC PWM controllers feed a
> very large capacitor, which then feeds the motor. If the capacitor was
> large enough, you may not need to synchronize the two controllers...

No! A large capacitor would *murder* the PWM controller!

A PWM controller is basically a buck converter; see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_converter
Notice the output inductor. It is vital part of the circuit. When a buck
converter is used to power a motor, designers frequency "cheap out" and
use the motor's inductance as the buck converter's inductor.

> With a large enough capacitor I think you could have the two PWM's
> just feed it at whatever phase they happened to be at.  It would still
> be necessary for you to have the throttle input (duty cycle) somewhat
> the same for both controllers...

This works with an *inductor* in series with each PWM controller output.

--
Ingenuity gets you through times of no money better than money
will get you through times of no ingenuity. -- Terry Pratchett
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at earthlink.net

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Re: Controllers

Jeffrey Jenkins
Lee Hart wrote
....When a buck
converter is used to power a motor, designers frequency "cheap out" and
use the motor's inductance as the buck converter's inductor....
"Cheap out"?!? Seriously?

Not duplicating components or functionality unnecessarily is the very essence of good engineering.

Besides, an inductor big enough to present a reasonable amount of inductance with 1000A (heck, 500A) of DC bias is going to be about the size of the motor...


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Re: Controllers

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by Mark Grasser
On 6/10/2012 1:41 PM, Mark Grasser wrote:
> PWM controller 50 amp
> http://www.canakit.com/50a-dc-pwm-motor-speed-controller.html

This one looks pretty cheesy. Things I noticed:

  - no (or negligible) input filter capacitors
  - no (or negligible) freewheel diode
  - 15-amp quick-connect terminals for a "50 amp" controller
  - no sign of a current sense resistor (maybe no current limit)
  - no sign of an overtemperature sensor on the heatsink

--
Humanity is acquiring all the right technology for all the wrong reasons.
        -- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at earthlink.net

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Re: Controllers

RICKRUNS26
In reply to this post by Jerry Rhodes
I just got a similar unit from Canakit last month.  It was their model UK
1130. I also bought a 50 amp unit not the one pictured in  the link below but
one that uses 6 IFR 1404's in the output.
     They both appear to work very well but make a  little noise.
Fortunately you can adjust the PWM frequency to something that  does not irritate
you. I was running a PM motor of Auto blower size and a larger  PM
starter/Generator for lawn equipment, both made noise. It might be  because there are no
large caps in the output section but I'm just guessing. The  circuit design
pro's on the list would know more.
      Rick Miller
 
 
 
In a message dated 6/10/2012 1:56:16 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
[hidden email] writes:

PWM  controller 50  amp
http://www.canakit.com/50a-dc-pwm-motor-speed-controller.html


I  have seen 60 amp but not sure where today.


Sincerely,
Mark  Grasser



-----Original Message-----
From:  [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf
Of  Jay Summet
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 1:27 PM
To:  [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controllers

-----BEGIN PGP  SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1



On 06/10/2012 01:12 PM, Lee  Hart wrote:
> On 6/10/2012 5:52 AM, Jerry Rhodes wrote:
>> I  have a project that needs a little bigger controller, can I
>>  parallel two 30 amp ones to get the 45 amps I need for the motor?

>  
> If this is the usual PWM DC motor controller, the on/off switching of  
> the two would have to be synchronized. There is usually no option for  
> this; it would require some serious reverse-engineering to figure out  
> how they work, and a connection between them to synchronize  them.


I *think* it should possible to have two DC PWM controllers  feed a very
large capacitor, which then feeds the motor. If the capacitor  was large
enough, you may not need to synchronize the two  controllers...

With a large enough capacitor I think you could have the  two PWM's just
feed
it at whatever phase they happened to be at.  It  would still be necessary
for you to have the throttle input (duty cycle)  somewhat the same for both
controllers...

But yes, it's probably  easiest to just buy a larger  controller.

Jay

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Re: Controllers

RICKRUNS26
In reply to this post by Jerry Rhodes
All sounds right to me. The 30 amp unit (very similar)  has a tinned trace
from the Fets to the terminals but I doubt that it can pass  even 1/4 the
rated current continuously. It has a freewheel that passes  through a resistor
that already looks a bit toasty. I don't know what that's  about but it
doesn't fill me with confidence.
     The 50 amp Maxx tronic unit with the 6 1404 fets I  bought from
Canakit looks like it has a 14 ga wire bus bar soldered into the  trace and uses 3
quick connect terms for each connection. Looks better built,  still has a
mild whine. Its fairly quiet on smaller motors and not bad  but noticeable on
the large radiator fan motor tried it on (15 to 18A).  Outdoors you might
not notice it. Has 2 freewheel diodes hooked right between  load - and load +
in a more substantial fashion than the unit above.
     Also beware, I don't think either has reverse  polarity protection.
One false move and bye.
     Mind you I'm not recommending either, just passing  on my experiences.
 
          Rick
 
 
In a message dated 6/10/2012 4:25:47 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
[hidden email] writes:

On  6/10/2012 1:41 PM, Mark Grasser wrote:
> PWM controller 50 amp
>  http://www.canakit.com/50a-dc-pwm-motor-speed-controller.html

This one  looks pretty cheesy. Things I noticed:

- no (or negligible)  input filter capacitors
- no (or negligible) freewheel  diode
- 15-amp quick-connect terminals for a "50 amp"  controller
- no sign of a current sense resistor (maybe no current  limit)
- no sign of an overtemperature sensor on the  heatsink

--
Humanity is acquiring all the right technology for all  the wrong reasons.
-- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee A.  Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at  earthlink.net

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Re: Controllers

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by Jeffrey Jenkins
Lee Hart wrote
>> ....When a buck converter is used to power a motor, designers
>> frequency "cheap out" and use the motor's inductance as the buck
>> converter's inductor....

Jeffrey Jenkins wrote:
> "Cheap out"?!? Seriously?

Seriously!

By "cheap out", I mean the designer chooses to leave out parts that
affect performance or efficiency for primarily economic reasons.
I realize that it is common practice to leave out the inductor in motor
controllers. But this is not done to improve performance or efficiency.
In fact, using the motor's inductance *lowers* performance and
efficiency! But, it eliminates an expensive, heavy component. Since most
customers care primarily about price, this is a sensible decision!

But let's think for a moment. Suppose you were designing a PWM
controller for any other application. You would carefully choose the
inductor to optimize performance and efficiency, as well as cost. Quite
often, you find that the extra size, weight, and cost of a better
inductor improves efficiency so that cooling requirements are reduced.
You save more on the heatsinking and cooling than you lose on the inductor.

> Not duplicating components or functionality unnecessarily is the
> very essence of good engineering.

I agree completely. But the tricky part is to figure out what is
"unnecessary".

Conventional wisdom is often used to decide what is unnecessary. If your
competitors aren't doing it, then you don't do it. But when technologies
are changing, this can often be wrong.

For example, it was once conventional wisdom that PWM controllers had no
input filter capacitors. They used the capacitance of the battery
instead. It worked, and eliminated the big expensive capacitors.

But it was discovered that without them, voltage spiking was worse.
Without capacitors, you need much higher voltage transistors and diodes
to survive the spikes. It was also discovered that the high peak battery
currents actually lowered the usable amphour capacity of the battery,
and caused battery heating that could shorten their life. So, it
gradually become convention wisdom to include capacitors at the input of
a PWM controller.

Later, it was discovered that if you depended on just the motor
inductance, the switching losses were higher. A motor's field isn't
built as a good high frequency inductor. It has thick laminations and
solid (non-laminated) back iron, which causes hysteresis and eddy
current losses. The coils are thick solid wire, which has skin effect
losses. There is also significant capacitance to ground, which the
controller's switches have to constantly charge and discharge. Finally,
hard switching the transistors led to high EMI noise levels on the motor
wires.

So, controllers started including their own inductors. This allowed
higher switching frequencies, but also soft switching which largely
eliminated switching losses, and reduced EMI. Yes, it can add 10 lbs of
inductor; but it can also removes 10 lbs of heatsinking and cooling.

> Besides, an inductor big enough to present a reasonable amount of
> inductance with 1000A (heck, 500A) of DC bias is going to be about
> the size of the motor...

Not at all! I think you are jumping to conclusions. For example, I have
the 40uH 400amp inductor out of a GE 400amp motor controller; it weighs
8.5 lbs.

--
First they ignore you; then they mock you; then they fight you; then you
win.
        -- Mahatma Gandhi
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at earthlink.net

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Re: Controllers

rodhower
In reply to this post by RICKRUNS26
Here's a few other places that offer controls in that power range,
http://www.4qd.co.uk/prod/index.html 
http://www.electricscooterparts.com/speedcontrollers.html 
http://www.lovecarolina.com/#xxxxx 
http://kellycontroller.com/products.php 

This place used to have some nice controls, but the website does not come up for
me anymore,
Diverse Electronic Services
www.diverseelectronicservices.com/

And this link is provided for anybody that is interested in learning more about
motor controls,
http://www.epanorama.net/links/motorcontrol.html 
and
http://www.4qd.co.uk/faq/index.html 


----- Original Message ----
From: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Sun, June 10, 2012 7:21:04 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controllers

All sounds right to me. The 30 amp unit (very similar)  has a tinned trace
from the Fets to the terminals but I doubt that it can pass  even 1/4 the
rated current continuously. It has a freewheel that passes  through a resistor
that already looks a bit toasty. I don't know what that's  about but it
doesn't fill me with confidence.
     The 50 amp Maxx tronic unit with the 6 1404 fets I  bought from
Canakit looks like it has a 14 ga wire bus bar soldered into the  trace and uses
3

quick connect terms for each connection. Looks better built,  still has a
mild whine. Its fairly quiet on smaller motors and not bad  but noticeable on
the large radiator fan motor tried it on (15 to 18A).  Outdoors you might
not notice it. Has 2 freewheel diodes hooked right between  load - and load +
in a more substantial fashion than the unit above.
     Also beware, I don't think either has reverse  polarity protection.
One false move and bye.
     Mind you I'm not recommending either, just passing  on my experiences.

          Rick


In a message dated 6/10/2012 4:25:47 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
[hidden email] writes:

On  6/10/2012 1:41 PM, Mark Grasser wrote:
> PWM controller 50 amp
>  http://www.canakit.com/50a-dc-pwm-motor-speed-controller.html

This one  looks pretty cheesy. Things I noticed:

- no (or negligible)  input filter capacitors
- no (or negligible) freewheel  diode
- 15-amp quick-connect terminals for a "50 amp"  controller
- no sign of a current sense resistor (maybe no current  limit)
- no sign of an overtemperature sensor on the  heatsink

--
Humanity is acquiring all the right technology for all  the wrong reasons.
-- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee A.  Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at  earthlink.net

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Solar car in Ohio

rodhower
In reply to this post by Lee Hart
During the commute to my daughters graduation party, my parents saw a solar car
on Route 44 near Alliance, Ohio.
There was a motor home in front and in back of the solar car.  Just wondering if
anybody has additional information
about this.  I recall reading something about a solar car making a cross country
trip but can't remember any of the details
and can't find a web site.
Thanks,
Rod

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Re: Solar car in Ohio

harry henderson
there is sun in ohio?

just kidding, i moved from kent to albuquerque swapping my sunny/cloudy day ratios

harry

Albuquerque, NM
current bike:  http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179
current non-bike: http://evalbum.com/1000


--- On Mon, 6/11/12, Rod Hower <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Rod Hower <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [EVDL]  Solar car in Ohio
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Date: Monday, June 11, 2012, 8:24 AM
> During the commute to my daughters
> graduation party, my parents saw a solar car
> on Route 44 near Alliance, Ohio.
> There was a motor home in front and in back of the solar
> car.  Just wondering if
> anybody has additional information
> about this.  I recall reading something about a solar
> car making a cross country
> trip but can't remember any of the details
> and can't find a web site.
> Thanks,
> Rod
>
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Re: Solar car in Ohio

Cal Frye
Hey, Harry,
No need to go so far west - up here in Oberlin we get more sun than
Kent. Just sayin'...

On 6/11/12 11:53 AM, harry henderson wrote:
> there is sun in ohio?
>
> just kidding, i moved from kent to albuquerque swapping my sunny/cloudy day ratios
>
> harry


--
Best Regards,
-- Cal Frye, Network Administrator, Oberlin College
   Mudd Library, x.56930 -- CIT will NEVER ask you for your password!

   www.calfrye.com,  www.oberlin.edu/cit/

"An achievement is simply a dream upon which we have labored." --John A.
Taylor.

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Re: Solar car in Ohio

John Schaefer
In reply to this post by rodhower
It's been several years now since the Xof1 solar car travelled throughout the US, including Oberlin, and up to the Arctic Circle twice. I doubt the one you saw in Ohio was Xof1, because it's in Canada now.

I drove the chase vehicle for a few weeks in California and it was a lot of fun. Marcelo built the car with a lot of help, and drove it more than 22,000 miles around the US and Canada, also with a lot of help. He is Canadian and lives in Ontario, which at last report doesn't permit solar cars to run on its streets. How lame is that? Marcelo is trying to publicize that absurdity.

The secret to making a solar car go 300 miles on a sunny day is high efficiency; the Xof1 car goes more than ten times as far as my US Electricar on a kWh. The downside is that the car isn't comfortable at all, in my view.

Marcelo visited a lot of schools on his trip, and inspired many children to follow their dreams.

More info at xof1.com