Dave's take on production EV's (Was: Bill Buhl's electric car)

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Dave's take on production EV's (Was: Bill Buhl's electric car)

Richard Acuti

David,
 
That was very well written. You really have an objective grasp of how the average, non-EV'er feels. All too often, EV owners are so prejudiced in favor of EV's, they simply don't understand anyone else's viewpoint. Sometimes I get that way myself. Understanding "everyone else" is the key to building the right EV, or some combination of the "right" EV, and changing the public's attitude or culture.
 
What you've essentially stated is that at the current level of technology and cost, the American driving public is not going mass-embrace EV's short of natural, social, political, or economic upheaval. I mostly agree with that assessment...
 
However, consider that the American public did not embrace recycling en-masse either. Getting people to simply stop throwing every single damn thing into the trash has been a long, hard slog in this country but I watched a CNN news clip yesterday that stated "Last year, Americans recycled 55% of all paper consumed in the United States". That figure was put out by some paper recycling watchdog group with a ridiculously long name that I've already forgotton. Their goal figure was 60% in 2010-ish. So we're actually ahead of the curve. It's an incredible number of tons that have stayed out of the landfill. Also, mass-transit ridership (in areas where it's available) is at an all-time high. My ride to the Pentagon every morning has convinced me of that. Standing room only on nearly every train...
 
Anyway, there may not be a mass-shift to EV's. Like recycling, It may be an incremental thing as people are slowly forced to drive slower, or drive less than they want to or maybe even NEED to, that forces people to integrate EV's into their lifestyle.



Rich A.Marylandhttp://www.austinev.org/evalbum/371.html
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Re: Dave's take on production EV's (Was: Bill Buhl's electric car)

Mike Travaline
Oil companies, auto manufacturers & corporations exporting
jobs overseas to satisfy their excessive greed may speed the
shift from ICEs to EVs.  They are driving up living costs;
weakening our oil based economy.  Soon they may have to rely
in foreign markets to feed their wealth as North American
consumers will be struggling to provide basics such as food,
health care, heating/cooling, shelter & necessary
transportation reducing demand for many goods and services.

Michael Travaline, Canada

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Richard
Acuti
Sent: April-03-08 7:24 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [EVDL] Dave's take on production EV's (Was: Bill
Buhl's electric car)


David,
 
That was very well written. You really have an objective
grasp of how the average, non-EV'er feels. All too often, EV
owners are so prejudiced in favor of EV's, they simply don't
understand anyone else's viewpoint. Sometimes I get that way
myself. Understanding "everyone else" is the key to building
the right EV, or some combination of the "right" EV, and
changing the public's attitude or culture.
 
What you've essentially stated is that at the current level
of technology and cost, the American driving public is not
going mass-embrace EV's short of natural, social, political,
or economic upheaval. I mostly agree with that assessment...
 
However, consider that the American public did not embrace
recycling en-masse either. Getting people to simply stop
throwing every single damn thing into the trash has been a
long, hard slog in this country but I watched a CNN news
clip yesterday that stated "Last year, Americans recycled
55% of all paper consumed in the United States". That figure
was put out by some paper recycling watchdog group with a
ridiculously long name that I've already forgotton. Their
goal figure was 60% in 2010-ish. So we're actually ahead of
the curve. It's an incredible number of tons that have
stayed out of the landfill. Also, mass-transit ridership (in
areas where it's available) is at an all-time high. My ride
to the Pentagon every morning has convinced me of that.
Standing room only on nearly every train...
 
Anyway, there may not be a mass-shift to EV's. Like
recycling, It may be an incremental thing as people are
slowly forced to drive slower, or drive less than they want
to or maybe even NEED to, that forces people to integrate
EV's into their lifestyle.



Rich A.Marylandhttp://www.austinev.org/evalbum/371.html
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_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_skydrive_packup_042008
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Re: Barriers to production EV's (Was: Bill Buhl's electric car)

EVDL Administrator
On 3 Apr 2008 at 1:58, Michael J. Travaline wrote:

> ... exporting jobs overseas ... excessive greed ...
> weakening our oil based economy ... struggling to provide basics ...

This is a pretty grim picture!  Nobody can predict how things will go, but
it wasn't my intent to suggest such a future.  I know it sounds a bit crass
and commercial, but putting it bluntly, I'm afraid that such dire
predictions don't usually make for good PR.  And EVs need all the good PR
they can get.  

Instead of dwelling on such a pessimistic vision - which some here might
consider controversial or disagree with anyway - I'd encourage everyone to
look for positive, forward-looking ways in which we can promote EV
acceptance.  If nothing else it'll make you happier than contemplating such
an unsettling turn of events. ;-)

So, I'll ask the question again, in a slightly different context.  

One reason the IBM PC became an office standard in the early 1980s, when the
Apple II and others hadn't, wasn't so much that it was vastly superior
technically to the other microcomputers.  If I'm not mistaken, it was the
software that did it.  Lotus 123 was tailored to the immediate needs of
managers.  Visicalc couldn't compete.  And Lotus 123 ran on the PC.

So, what "killer application" can electric drive provide that ICE drive
can't possibly match?

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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Re: Barriers to production EV's (Was: Bill Buhl's electric car)

Aaron Eiche
And before that, the Software gave IBM a run for it's money when the they
had no Desktop. The Apple II was just appealing.

So the best I came up with in 10 minutes:

* A good parking space next to work (A charging spot)
* Turning Heads going down the freeway (especially if you're driving a
Tadpole... Personally not for me). One gets a bit of a movie star treatment
in the parking lot "Is it really electric?"

There was on EV1 ad that never aired... It really described the car as one
of the future. It's a shame it was never shown because it really was
something that would've drawn people in.

* No Engine light
* No Oil Change

It's a tough question to answer. Total Cost of Ownership on an EV is likely
going to be lower than an ICE. It'll do everything you need it to, even
though it doesn't do the few things you need once or twice a year.
This actually reminds me of the old arguments I used to have about Macs and
Windows machines when I was younger.


On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 2:30 PM, EVDL Administrator <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 3 Apr 2008 at 1:58, Michael J. Travaline wrote:
>
> > ... exporting jobs overseas ... excessive greed ...
> > weakening our oil based economy ... struggling to provide basics ...
>
> This is a pretty grim picture!  Nobody can predict how things will go, but
> it wasn't my intent to suggest such a future.  I know it sounds a bit
> crass
> and commercial, but putting it bluntly, I'm afraid that such dire
> predictions don't usually make for good PR.  And EVs need all the good PR
> they can get.
>
> Instead of dwelling on such a pessimistic vision - which some here might
> consider controversial or disagree with anyway - I'd encourage everyone to
> look for positive, forward-looking ways in which we can promote EV
> acceptance.  If nothing else it'll make you happier than contemplating
> such
> an unsettling turn of events. ;-)
>
> So, I'll ask the question again, in a slightly different context.
>
> One reason the IBM PC became an office standard in the early 1980s, when
> the
> Apple II and others hadn't, wasn't so much that it was vastly superior
> technically to the other microcomputers.  If I'm not mistaken, it was the
> software that did it.  Lotus 123 was tailored to the immediate needs of
> managers.  Visicalc couldn't compete.  And Lotus 123 ran on the PC.
>
> So, what "killer application" can electric drive provide that ICE drive
> can't possibly match?
>
> David Roden
> EVDL Administrator
> http://www.evdl.org/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
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Re: Barriers to production EV's (Was: Bill Buhl's electriccar)

Mike Travaline
Design & Build an affordable EV then aggressively marketed
to the most viable market.  

The potential buyers of EVs may be low-in-come earners,
retries & families requiring a 2nd car as a city runabout.
These groups do not make power, speed, stat-of-the-art
computerization & power features a prerequisite when
purchasing a new vehicle.  

They would be attracted to a vehicle that is no only
convenient (no stops at the pumps & fewer visits to a
mechanic) but less expensive to fuel, maintain & repair.

I don't know if the Smart car has made inroads in the US; it
has here and many of the drivers are older folks.  If I were
able to acquire an affordable street legal EV, I would promo
it in shopping centres near the handicap section where I see
the most outdate cars being driving by seniors.  

Our government is considering offering owners of late model
cars a cash incentive towards the purchase of a new vehicle
claiming these older vehicles are the worst polluters.  A
little cash incentive may not be too enticing should your
replacement vehicle cost you the equivalent of 2 - 3 times
your annual pension income.  

My car was 10 years old in excellent condition when I
retired 7 years ago and I still drive it, albeit a lot less,
from 16,000 to 3,000 miles a year, maybe even less with the
current price of gasoline.  An EV would suit me perfectly.  

Michael Travaline, Toronto, ON, Canada


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Re: Barriers to production EV's (Was: Bill Buhl's electric car)

David Beard
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator
ENERGY INDEPENDENCE, EV AND PV
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Re: Barriers to production EV's (Was: Bill Buhl's electric car)

CRadomsky
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator
re killer aplications      A practical on board  generator. It is the missing
link.   Charles  R.



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Re: Barriers to production EV's (Was: Bill Buhl's electriccar)

Andrew Kane-2
In reply to this post by Mike Travaline
      I understand that the ZENN NEV is not available in Ontario right
now. If it was, would you buy one? It seems like it fits your
criteria. Of course it's not the only NEV out there, but it's built in
Canada and I think it is exactly as available to Ontario residents as
the others (the obstacle being its low-speed NEV status as I
understand the situation.)


On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 11:00 AM, Michael J. Travaline
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Design & Build an affordable EV then aggressively marketed
>  to the most viable market.
>
>  The potential buyers of EVs may be low-in-come earners,
>  retries & families requiring a 2nd car as a city runabout.
>  These groups do not make power, speed, stat-of-the-art
>  computerization & power features a prerequisite when
>  purchasing a new vehicle.
>
>  They would be attracted to a vehicle that is no only
>  convenient (no stops at the pumps & fewer visits to a
>  mechanic) but less expensive to fuel, maintain & repair.
>
>  I don't know if the Smart car has made inroads in the US; it
>  has here and many of the drivers are older folks.  If I were
>  able to acquire an affordable street legal EV, I would promo
>  it in shopping centres near the handicap section where I see
>  the most outdate cars being driving by seniors.
>
>  Our government is considering offering owners of late model
>  cars a cash incentive towards the purchase of a new vehicle
>  claiming these older vehicles are the worst polluters.  A
>  little cash incentive may not be too enticing should your
>  replacement vehicle cost you the equivalent of 2 - 3 times
>  your annual pension income.
>
>  My car was 10 years old in excellent condition when I
>  retired 7 years ago and I still drive it, albeit a lot less,
>  from 16,000 to 3,000 miles a year, maybe even less with the
>  current price of gasoline.  An EV would suit me perfectly.
>
>  Michael Travaline, Toronto, ON, Canada
>
>
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  For subscription options, see
>  http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Re: Barriers to production EV's

Mike Travaline
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator
If the public was fully aware of the advantages barriers may ease; I knew little about EVs a few years ago.  When I began looking to one as my next vehicle; I consider convenience, maybe cheaper fuel & maintenance costs by eliminating many components of an ICE that are expensive to replace & repair.  I gave little though to improved mileage efficiency.  Developing a basic standard platform for the construction and manufacture of Evs may reduce their production costs making them less expensive to acquire than an ICE.  Unfortunately being in Canada, there is little national interest and so far most of the feedback I get from politicians and transport authorities has been negative towards the less expensive slow-speed electric cars. Retired on pension a Tesla or similar vehicle is well beyond my financial means.

 

Having owned and driven ICE vehicles for almost 40 year; the initial benefits of operating an EV I thought would be:

 

         Not having to leave home frequently to fill a tank with extremely combustible & expensive fuel; especially in foul weather conditions.

 

         Less chance of an explosion & fire; if impacted by another vehicle.

 

         No periodic air filter & gas filter replacements.

 

         No oil changes or major tune-ups needed.

 

         No expensive catalytic converters, mufflers or timing belts to replace (if I were more mechanically aware, I am sure there are many more items that could be added to this list).

 

         Not paying for emission testing; currently required every 2 years that authorities could easily make an annual occurrence to increase revenues.

 

         Less computerized components that are expensive to replace or repair should they fail.

 

         Less non-power features = I.e., keyless entry, powered locks, mirrors & windows are non-essential expensive luxuries that are also expensive to repair or replace and that seem to have become

           standard features rather than options. For the time I spend it my car, I can manage quite nicely without any of these.

 

         Maybe heating & cooling features could be offered as an additional option; pending where you live, you many may not need both and in reasonably tempered climates maybe neither.

 

         Providing fuel for charging an EV can be acquired from zero-emission sources such as nuclear, hydroelectric, solar, wind and geothermal. as well as coal & natural gas.

 

         Unlike ethanol, producing electricy does not require giving up valuable tracts of agricultural land to produce fuel.  

 

         Simple fuelling source infrastructure; a cord & a power outlet - easy and inexpensive to install; especially, compare with filling stations that require a large land area with underground storage

           tanks &  electronically controlled mechanical pumps and staff to fuel ICEs.

 

         It would be much easier & less costly to monitor & control pollution from energy sources rather than individual vehicles.

 

         Governments could offer GREEN rebates to purchasers of EVs for reducing green house gas emissions.

 

 

 

I checked the Debunking the Myth of EVs and Smokestacks - by Chip Gribben of the Electric Vehicle Association of Greater Washington, D.C. (EVA/DC) - October 26, 1996; I was astounded.  The advances of technology in the past 11 years should improve these numbers significantly.  Having this report updated in 2008 using a later built EV could provide more encouragement for governments and the automotive industry to seriously consider supporting EVs, as well as hydrogen that I suspect the average consumer will never be able to afford.  

 

Fuel Efficiency Comparison between EVs and ICE Vehicles

 

Electric-Powered GM EV1                   Gasoline-Powered Acura

 

Start with              1 million BTUs    Start with              1 million BTUs      

 

Energy left after                         Energy left after

Generation                                Refining

(39% efficiency)        390,000 BTUs      (92% efficiency)        920,000 BTUs

 

Energy left after                         Energy left after

charging losses                           transportation

(88% efficiency)        343,200 BTUs      (95% efficiency)        874,000 BTUs

 

BTUs per                                  BTUs per gallon

Kilowatt-hour           3412 BTUs21       of gasoline             114,500 BTUs22

 

Electricity Available     100.6 kWhr      Gallons available         7.6 gallons

                                   

Energy Efficiency         .19 kWhr/mile   Fuel economy                24 mpg

                         5.26 miles/kWhr

 

Miles per million                         Miles per million

BTUs                      529.5 miles     BTUs                      182.5 miles

 

Equivalent mpg               60 mpg       Equivalent mpg                24 mpg

 

Back when GM built the “EV; it would have offered more than double the mileage range of an ICE.  It’s no wonder some people started converting their ICE vehicles to electric; even before gas prices began to soar!   The extended mileage efficiency is reason enough to switch to electric; not only can you drive further for less fuel expense but your maintenance & upkeep costs decrease and switching makes your driving more environmentally friendly. One

 

Regards,

(My next vehicle will be electric)

Michael Travaline, Toronto, ON, Canada    

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Re: Barriers to production EV's (Was: Bill Buhl's electric car)

nicklogan
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator

<quote author="EVDL Administrator">

One reason the IBM PC became an office standard in the early 1980s, when the
Apple II and others hadn't, wasn't so much that it was vastly superior
technically to the other microcomputers.  If I'm not mistaken, it was the
software that did it.  Lotus 123 was tailored to the immediate needs of
managers.  Visicalc couldn't compete.  And Lotus 123 ran on the PC.

So, what "killer application" can electric drive provide that ICE drive
can't possibly match?

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


     Having owned a PC since they came without a hard drive (booted from 5 1/4" floppies) and remembering being thrilled when upgrading from 640 KILOBYTES of RAM to 1 MEGABYTE, I would have to disagree that the key factor in the success of the PC was software. In my opinion, though having more choices for software was important, it followed the rise in popularity brought about because the hardware was basically an open design that any vendor could copy and make upgrade accessories for.
     If hardware standards could be established for EV's that allow components to play nicely together, it would go a long way toward encouraging more vendors to make products. However, my pessimistic side says that as soon as major auto makers become involved, standards will be intentionally  varied and obfuscated to try to get a competitive advantage and to prop up dealer parts sales. I think an IEEE committee to establish standards for EV's would help if it could be done without being steamrollered by the  major auto makers.


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Re: Barriers to production EV's (Was: Bill Buhl's electric car)

Steve Peterson-4
A third reason that must be kept in mind is that it was the *IBM*
personal computer. In those days if IBM blessed/embraced something, the
general perception was that the product was probably pretty good. The
saying "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM" had some truth to it. I
remember that before the IBM PC, all sorts of people (CEOs, etc.) were
asking "Yes, but should we be using small computers in business". After
the IBM PC came out, that question wasn't heard much any more.

Plus, IBM spent vast sums promoting the PC--remember those "little
tramp" commercials? They were *everywhere*.

--Steve

On Fri, 2008-04-04 at 04:40 -0700, nicklogan wrote:

>
>
>
> One reason the IBM PC became an office standard in the early 1980s, when the
> Apple II and others hadn't, wasn't so much that it was vastly superior
> technically to the other microcomputers.  If I'm not mistaken, it was the
> software that did it.  Lotus 123 was tailored to the immediate needs of
> managers.  Visicalc couldn't compete.  And Lotus 123 ran on the PC.
>
> So, what "killer application" can electric drive provide that ICE drive
> can't possibly match?
>
> David Roden
> EVDL Administrator
> http://www.evdl.org/
>
>
>      Having owned a PC since they came without a hard drive (booted from 5
> 1/4" floppies) and remembering being thrilled when upgrading from 640
> KILOBYTES of RAM to 1 MEGABYTE, I would have to disagree that the key factor
> in the success of the PC was software. In my opinion, though having more
> choices for software was important, it followed the rise in popularity
> brought about because the hardware was basically an open design that any
> vendor could copy and make upgrade accessories for.
>      If hardware standards could be established for EV's that allow
> components to play nicely together, it would go a long way toward
> encouraging more vendors to make products. However, my pessimistic side says
> that as soon as major auto makers become involved, standards will be
> intentionally  varied and obfuscated to try to get a competitive advantage
> and to prop up dealer parts sales. I think an IEEE committee to establish
> standards for EV's would help if it could be done without being
> steamrollered by the  major auto makers.
>
>
>

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Re: Barriers to production EV's

Gary Krysztopik-2
In reply to this post by nicklogan

> So, what "killer application" can electric drive provide that ICE drive
> can't possibly match?
>
>  
- sustainable life on the planet earth ;<}

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Re: Barriers to production EV's

Bob Rice-2

----- Original Message -----
From: "gary" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Barriers to production EV's


>
>> So, what "killer application" can electric drive provide that ICE drive
>> can't possibly match?
>>
>>  
> - sustainable life on the planet earth ;<}

  BEAUTIFUL! I Love it!
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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Re: Barriers to production EV's (Was: Bill Buhl's electric car)

Chuck Homic
In reply to this post by CRadomsky
[hidden email] wrote:
> re killer aplications      A practical on board  generator. It is the missing
> link.   Charles  R.
>  
You can get a diesel APU used in trucks.  Small, efficient, meets EPA
standards, not cheap.

http://www.peakpowertools.com/APU-Truck-Generator-6000-Watt-Lombardini-Diesel-p/apu6000gs.htm

One this size would not operate as a range extender indefinitely (5.5KW
continuous) unless you're going pretty slow.  But if you have a 10KWh
pack for going 40 miles at 40 mph at 250Wh/mile (10KW), you get another
5.5KWh in that time to go another 22 miles.  If you leave it running
while you're shopping (after depleting your pack getting to the store)
for an hour, you'll be able to drive another 34 miles when you're done.  
(22 miles on 5.5KWh stored energy, plus another 12 miles on energy that
was generated while you drove 22 miles...)  Yes I ignored losses, but I
also ignored that it will still be charging at stoplights and such.  But
that's still theoretically about 100 miles on maybe 1/2 gal of diesel,
so it beats a Prius.

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Re: Barriers to production EV's (Was: Bill Buhl's electric car)

Morgan LaMoore
It'll use a lot more than 1/2 gallon of diesel.

Note that they don't say that the 1 gallon per 8 hours is at full
load. Full load of 6kW for 8 hours is 48kWh; diesel only has an energy
density of 40.6 kWh/gallon. That indicates that their quoted fuel use
is at light or no load.

-Morgan LaMoore

On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 10:06 AM, Chuck Homic <[hidden email]> wrote:

> [hidden email] wrote:
>  > re killer aplications      A practical on board  generator. It is the missing
>  > link.   Charles  R.
>  >
>  You can get a diesel APU used in trucks.  Small, efficient, meets EPA
>  standards, not cheap.
>
>  http://www.peakpowertools.com/APU-Truck-Generator-6000-Watt-Lombardini-Diesel-p/apu6000gs.htm
>
>  One this size would not operate as a range extender indefinitely (5.5KW
>  continuous) unless you're going pretty slow.  But if you have a 10KWh
>  pack for going 40 miles at 40 mph at 250Wh/mile (10KW), you get another
>  5.5KWh in that time to go another 22 miles.  If you leave it running
>  while you're shopping (after depleting your pack getting to the store)
>  for an hour, you'll be able to drive another 34 miles when you're done.
>  (22 miles on 5.5KWh stored energy, plus another 12 miles on energy that
>  was generated while you drove 22 miles...)  Yes I ignored losses, but I
>  also ignored that it will still be charging at stoplights and such.  But
>  that's still theoretically about 100 miles on maybe 1/2 gal of diesel,
>  so it beats a Prius.
>
>
>
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Re: Barriers to production EV's (Was: Bill Buhl's electric car)

kjd
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator
“So, what "killer application" can electric drive provide that ICE drive
can't possibly match?”
*********************************

This is an easy one for me. The best thing about driving an EV is that you can tell Exxon and Chevron to take their Oil and shove it. I am NOT going to pay 4.06 for diesel and I am NOT going to pay 3.26 for gasoline to pollute the air we breathe any longer.

I am not going to pay 110 dollars a barrel for a finite fossil fuel that when burned is melting the glaciers in Alaska and Greenland.

It has been a pure pleasure to drive an EV to work today. http://www.evalbum.com/1414

When I get home I will fuel my EV with solar power.

The Killer EV Application that is missing is convenient public charging stations. If every park and ride lot had a charge station, I could use my EV a lot more than I do. If every public park had an easy to find electrical outlet, I could go anywhere in the metro area and not worry about getting home.

The cost of installing these public charge stations would be a fraction of the money being spent to protect the oil fields in the middle east.  That Oil supply is finite and is not going to last forever, we might as well move to a cleaner alternative sooner rather than later.

Kyle Dansie
http://www.zevutah.com/index.html




EVDL Administrator wrote
On 3 Apr 2008 at 1:58, Michael J. Travaline wrote:

> ... exporting jobs overseas ... excessive greed ...
> weakening our oil based economy ... struggling to provide basics ...

This is a pretty grim picture!  Nobody can predict how things will go, but
it wasn't my intent to suggest such a future.  I know it sounds a bit crass
and commercial, but putting it bluntly, I'm afraid that such dire
predictions don't usually make for good PR.  And EVs need all the good PR
they can get.  

Instead of dwelling on such a pessimistic vision - which some here might
consider controversial or disagree with anyway - I'd encourage everyone to
look for positive, forward-looking ways in which we can promote EV
acceptance.  If nothing else it'll make you happier than contemplating such
an unsettling turn of events. ;-)

So, I'll ask the question again, in a slightly different context.  

One reason the IBM PC became an office standard in the early 1980s, when the
Apple II and others hadn't, wasn't so much that it was vastly superior
technically to the other microcomputers.  If I'm not mistaken, it was the
software that did it.  Lotus 123 was tailored to the immediate needs of
managers.  Visicalc couldn't compete.  And Lotus 123 ran on the PC.

So, what "killer application" can electric drive provide that ICE drive
can't possibly match?

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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Re: Barriers to production EV's

Ralph-54
In reply to this post by Bob Rice-2
Stop and go seems a good deal too. Not moving= no power consumed... less likely to overheat, right :)

-Ralph


On Fri, 4 Apr 2008 10:48:47 -0400
"Bob Rice" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "gary" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 9:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Barriers to production EV's
>
>
> >
> >> So, what "killer application" can electric drive provide that ICE drive
> >> can't possibly match?
> >>
> >>  
> > - sustainable life on the planet earth ;<}
>
>   BEAUTIFUL! I Love it!
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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Re: Barriers to production EV's

Chuck Hays
In reply to this post by Gary Krysztopik-2

> From: "EVDL Administrator"

> So, what "killer application" can electric drive provide that ICE drive
> can't possibly match?

I'm wondering if the benefits of EVs couldn't be structured
in a way that presents a clear benefit to the user. Just as
in your PC vs. Apple example and Lotus 1-2-3, it wasn't
the PC per se that made the difference, it was the collateral
benefits that came along with it, such as more useful soft-
ware that only ran on that platform.

Along that line, a progressive set of benefits could include
things like "no-ICE" zones in downtown areas, or perhaps
free parking or centrally-located charging stations for EVs,
anything that encourages their use or privileges it over the
use of ICE vehicles while not barring ICE vehicles outright.
Some days you may NEED to bring a pickup to work to
go to the lumber yard and get some cement blocks. On
those days you pay to park or whatever.

Effective EVs, that like the old PC allow the user to "geek
it out" as much as they want or keep it straight stock if
that's their desire. The main thing would have to be that
the basic vehicle would be dependable and although all
vehicles require some degree of attention from their owners,
as maintenance-free as possible. And affordable for the lower
income people who would derive a proportionally higher
benefit from saving on their fuel costs.

My belief is that some immediate benefit such as the above
needs to be in place, or the prospective buyer is not going
to want to buy in. Or if they do, it won't be as strong for them.
The current pricing structure proposed for production EVs
reflects the increased per-unit costs of small-volume construction,
development costs, and the cost of power storage technology.
All mostly costs that have been written off the books in ICE
cars years ago (how much is a gas tank?).

It might make EVs more competitive in the price if ICE cars
included the price of the first 10,000 miles worth of gas in the
sticker. Not such a far-fetched idea, really -- refrigerators come
with the Energy Guide sticker, so should EVs. ICE vehicles should
also post a representative figure.

"Given average mileage of X, driven Y miles per year, a year's
worth of gas a Z dollars per gallon will cost you this much. Add
this much extra for an oil changes, tires and other maintenance."

Of course, I realize most people aren't money-geeks enough to
do that kind of calculation -- and include insurance and financing
costs! -- when they look at a major purchase of this kind.

I get accused of being a pessimist. I'm not; I'm very hopeful. I
also believe it has to come down to some way of comparing apples
to apples -- and one of the easiest ways to do that is to boil it all
down to dollars, and be clear about all the assumptions that go
into the model.

Chuck Hays
Kamloops, BC
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Re: Barriers to production EV's

Sheldon Young
Chuck Hays wrote:
> I get accused of being a pessimist. I'm not; I'm very hopeful. I
> also believe it has to come down to some way of comparing apples
> to apples -- and one of the easiest ways to do that is to boil it all
> down to dollars, and be clear about all the assumptions that go
> into the model.
>
> Chuck Hays
> Kamloops, BC
> ___________________

I believe that dollars have little to due with the acceptance of
production electric vehicles.  Dollars are something people value
because they can be exchange d for needs and wants, not because the
paper itself is desirable.  The killer applications for electric
vehicles, at least in the first world nations, are convenience and
style.  Consumers have shown over and over again that convenience and
style are more influential to buying decisions than logic.

For me, the beauty in an electric car is in the fact that electrons can
propel steel and glass down the highway.  But for consumers it will take
an Apple-like design focus before an electric car becomes something
desirable for it's own sake.  Right now an EV is simply a way to avoid a
less desirable alternative such as high gas prices and pollution.

One day small and quirky may become stylish and convenient, but not yet.

My next project is an electric lawn tractor.  To me it will be
convenient because I won't have to deal with oil changes, hauling gas,
spark plugs and temperamental starting.  It will be beautiful because it
will be quiet and simple.  But those views aren't shared by the general
consumer, who stares longingly at the way the shine reflects off the
bushed aluminum of their iPod and the 22" wheels on their SUV and
wonders how many cup holders the lawn tractor has.

To the crew creating the Sunrise EV2 prototype: No pressure. :)

Sheldon Young
Prince George, BC

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Re: Barriers to production EV's (Was: Bill Buhl's electric car)

Lock Hughes
In reply to this post by kjd
No more stinkin' visits to a stinkin'gas station.
  I used to get a kick out of motoring through gas stations without stopping... showing off I guess. But the stations always just smell so bad now.
  Like what a tobacco smoker smells like to any ex- and non-smoker I guess.
  :)
  tks
  LocK

  Facebook?
  The Personal Electrics Project (PEP)
  http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=27002365231
  (EVs in mass transit service...Spring 2009.  Wish us luck)
   
 
So, what "killer application" can electric drive provide that ICE drive
can't possibly match?
*********************************

       
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