Delivery truck

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Delivery truck

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Great article. And it points up a serious flaw in all the recent
promotion of electric vehicles - they all neglect the one mission that
an electric can perform without exotic batteries, ultra-lightweight
construction and huge amounts of money.
The British milk float (recently) and the many delivery vehicles
(earlier on) are proof of this, using ordinary deep-cycle lead acid
batteries.
The early government support for EV development in the 1970s emphasized
this mission, but these days I guess it just isn't "cool."

Marc
--
Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog
Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog
Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380
Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc
Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/
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Re: Delivery truck

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Marc,
on the contrary. Batteries only perform as good as the mantenance they
receive.
Many experiments of EVs in fleet service (USPS comes to mind) "failed"
because the
drivers did not like the EVs and apparently necessary maintenance was
not performed,
so the EVs soon sat unused, abused.
My previous electric truck was converted for the City of Santa Rosa
around 1995 with a
DC motor and flooded lead-acid batteries, so it even got a tilt-bed to
access the batteries
under the bed.
By 2011 it had accumulated a handful of running hours, since it
apparently sat 15 years in
the Santa Rosa city yard virtually unused.
I bought it after a guy in Saratoga invested in restoring it, using Golf
Cart batteries.
So, every few months I found myself watering all 60 cells with distilled
water, cleaning
terminals from the accumulated crud and generally not enjoying the
amount of
ongoing maintenance that I had to do to this truck.
When the pack started getting older after 4-5 years as daily driver, I
sold that truck
and found my current daily driver, a US Electricar S10.
It too had sat many years with a (now dead) lead-acid pack.
I ripped out the lead and installed 2 used Nissan Leaf packs in the two
battery box halves.
I have not needed to get into that battery box again, there is no
maintenance needed,
I just get in, drive it and plug in to charge.
I have now put over 6,000 miles on it this last year, I have never
driven an EV more than
this one, because it is a joy to drive plus the absence of maintenance
allows me to do
things that I rather do than caring for my car's batteries.

I can give many examples of EVs that did not get a good acceptance or
where people
got burned by issues with the batteries, no matter whether it is lead or
NiMH such as
the Vectrix motorcycle (scooter actually) where the designers were
pushed by sales
to give it higher top speed, literally blowing up the NiMH cells and
even the fuse.

I have a very good idea why people like the no-maintenance-needed Leaf
so much.

Obviously, in some types of service with guaranteed dedicated
maintenance staff,
whether on Golf courses or Airport ground services or Warehouse
operation,
there are many well-performing Lead-acid battery EVs due to the high
level and
quality of maintenance that is embedded in these organisations.
In cases where the maintenance is a nuisance, you see a quick move to
Lithium Ion
type batteries for a good reason.
Regards,
Cor.


-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marc de Piolenc
via EV
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 2:32 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: Marc de Piolenc
Subject: [EVDL] Delivery truck

Great article. And it points up a serious flaw in all the recent
promotion of electric vehicles - they all neglect the one mission that
an electric can perform without exotic batteries, ultra-lightweight
construction and huge amounts of money.
The British milk float (recently) and the many delivery vehicles
(earlier on) are proof of this, using ordinary deep-cycle lead acid
batteries.
The early government support for EV development in the 1970s emphasized
this mission, but these days I guess it just isn't "cool."

Marc
--
Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog:
http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile):
http://www.proz.com/profile/639380
Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc
Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/
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Re: Delivery truck

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
> Marc,
> on the contrary. Batteries only perform as good as the mantenance they
> receive.

I agree. Most batteries do not die of old age... they are "murdered" by
ignorance, neglect, and abuse!

What you do you think would happen to an ICE if no maintenance was done
at all? Instead of it lasting 100k or 200k miles, it would be ruined in
a small fraction of that time.

Yeah, yeah... there are anecdotal stories on the web of people who claim
they never even changed the oil and the car lasted 100k miles. But I
also have an uncle who tried this, and his new car's engine siezed at
about 22k miles from lack of oil. It was a pretty expensive lesson.

> I can give many examples of EVs that did not get a good acceptance or
> where people got burned by issues with the batteries, no matter whether
> it is lead or NiMH...

Or lithium. Incompetent design and owner abuse can destroy *any* battery
before its time.

> I have a very good idea why people like the no-maintenance-needed Leaf
> so much.

I suspect most people aren't even *aware* that batteries can have
maintenance and abuse issues.

The automakers know that people won't take care of them. So, their EVs
"take care" of the batteries for you. They used types that don't need
(and in fact, *cannot*) be maintained. They design the control systems
to *prevent* abuse, even if the owner tries. This certainly helps; but
it also adds considerably to the cost of the EV.

> Obviously, in some types of service with guaranteed dedicated
> maintenance staff... there are many well-performing Lead-acid battery
> EVs due to the high level and quality of maintenance that is embedded
> in these organisations.

Yes. In some markets, it is traditional to buy the best, and maintain it
so it lasts "forever". That leads to the lowest total cost.

But in most consumer markets, customers do little or no maintenance.
They pay more, and then just "use it up" and "throw it out".

--
It is vanity to do with more that which can be done with less.
         -- William of Ockham
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: Delivery truck

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
That made me look up usps ev stuff, found this fun history up to 2014
of USPS EV efforts:
https://about.usps.com/what-we-are-doing/green/vehicles.htm
and some info about their current competition to replace trucks:
https://jalopnik.com/heres-the-secret-new-electric-u-s-postal-service-truck-1819339421
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Re: Delivery truck

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I'm always reluctant to recommend large scale solutions relying on lead acid batteries.

The adverse environmental impacts of plants that process them are huge, contaminating nearby communities with lead emissions for which there is no safe exposure.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 23, 2018, at 2:32 PM, Marc de Piolenc via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Great article. And it points up a serious flaw in all the recent promotion of electric vehicles - they all neglect the one mission that an electric can perform without exotic batteries, ultra-lightweight construction and huge amounts of money.
> The British milk float (recently) and the many delivery vehicles (earlier on) are proof of this, using ordinary deep-cycle lead acid batteries.
> The early government support for EV development in the 1970s emphasized this mission, but these days I guess it just isn't "cool."
>
> Marc
> --
> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog
> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog
> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380
> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc
> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
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Re: Delivery truck

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
> I'm always reluctant to recommend large scale solutions relying on lead acid batteries.
>
> The adverse environmental impacts of plants that process them are huge, contaminating nearby communities with lead emissions for which there is no safe exposure.

Lead can certainly be bad for people and the environment. But then, so can the
materials in just about any battery.

The key lies in *responsible* manufacturing, handling and recycling. Lead-acid
batteries have been around so long that there are laws and procedures (in most
developed countries) that prohibit bad practices. Upwards of 98% of the lead is
recycled into new batteries. No other battery comes close. The majority of them
are (sadly) thrown out as trash and wind up in landfills.

--
It is vanity to do with more that which can be done with less.
         -- William of Ockham
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Lead battery recycling, Not 98% (was: Delivery truck)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Lee, I think this 98% recycled is a case of very carefully drawing the
envelope. I believe it only accounts for batteries that make it though
the front gate of the recycling facility.

Here is why:

According to the International Lead Association's figures, lead-acid
batteries use 85% of all the lead produced form all sources. (This
percentage goes up a touch with each passing year because lead is used
in fewer other products.)
About 50% of the lead produced is mined, and 50% comes from recycled
lead. This is also directly from the ILA figures.
This ~50% recycled fraction has been quite steady for quite a few years.
https://www.ila-lead.org/lead-facts/lead-recycling

If _none_ of the lead used for other than lead-acid batteries is
recycled but ends up in the land fill, (not true, but bear with me)
where is the remaining 35% of the lead used for lead acid batteries going?

Basically, at _least_ 35% of all lead-acid batteries is _not_ being
recycled. If they were recycled at 98%, there would be at least 83% of
the lead production would be from recycled lead from lead-acid
batteries.  Only 50% comes from recycled lead.

The figures just don't add up. At least 35% of lead-acid batteries are
ending up in the land fill. Just doing basic mass balance accounting
using the ILA figures.

Indeed, an entire EV's worth of batteries is more likely to end up at
the recycler than an alarm battery, but the 98% I believe is "creative
accounting" at best.

Bill D.


On 1/23/2018 11:40 PM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

> Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
>> I'm always reluctant to recommend large scale solutions relying on
>> lead acid batteries.
>>
>> The adverse environmental impacts of plants that process them are
>> huge, contaminating nearby communities with lead emissions for which
>> there is no safe exposure.
>
> Lead can certainly be bad for people and the environment. But then, so
> can the materials in just about any battery.
>
> The key lies in *responsible* manufacturing, handling and recycling.
> Lead-acid batteries have been around so long that there are laws and
> procedures (in most developed countries) that prohibit bad practices.
> Upwards of 98% of the lead is recycled into new batteries. No other
> battery comes close. The majority of them are (sadly) thrown out as
> trash and wind up in landfills.
>

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Re: Lead battery recycling, Not 98% (was: Delivery truck)

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On 24 Jan 2018 at 0:20, Bill Dube via EV wrote:

> Basically, at _least_ 35% of all lead-acid batteries are _not_ being
> recycled.

Bill, sorry, but I think this is too simplistic. For this analysis to apply,
you'd have to assume that essentially every lead battery manufactured
replaces an existing lead battery.  Obviously that's not the case, so of
course some newly mined lead has to enter the manufacturing stream.  

To name only one reason, each year the vehicle population worldwide
increases about 3.5 percent.  The vast majority is ICEVs, but almost every
one of them has a lead battery.

At the same time, the 98 percent figure has always struck me as implausible.
I've seen too many explicit counter-examples, such as the coast guard
workers I read about who (at least used to) regularly tip spent buoy
batteries into the deep so they wouldn't have to haul them back to port.

Do you work in an office?  In the years I worked in a place that had a UPS
at every computer workstation, the number of batteries I rescued from the
trash and took home to my own recycling pile numbered in the dozens.  I'm
sure I probably missed the majority of them.

It's also shocking to read the harrowing accounts of third-world battery
recycling. Apparently it's cheaper to export some batteries and other
recyclables to low-wage countries for dismantling.  In many cases these
nations have weak or nonexistent environmental laws, or the laws can be
bypassed with a small cash payment.  Thousands of dirt-poor people work in
these gigantic festering scrap piles, with no protective gear, poisoning
themselves and their air, water, and ground day after day.  How is this
accounted for?  Do we ignore it because they're lead-polluting some other
country, not ours?  And shouldn't we consider the impact of shipping the
batteries over, and the reclaimed materials back?

Sure, there's a well developed recyling infrastructure for lead batteries,
and thank goodness for it.  But what are the consequences for not using it?  
Nobody is checking your trash.  In the end it's down to individual
responsibility.  Good luck finding much of that,  outside of folks on this
list.  

I've seen this 98 percent battery recycling figure many times over the
years. While (as the song says) data is not the plural of anecdote, my own
observations, reading, and experience make me skeptical about it.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: Delivery truck

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Simply not the case.

You are right that there is an issue with the ability to recycle other batteries. We do need to find a way to deal with lithium-ion battery waste. But I'm not aware of any health impacts associated with these batteries. What impacts were you referring to?

But lead acid battery processing remain a problem. Even the most effective emission controls can result in high risk levels throughout the local community. And most battery processing facilities don't have these controls.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 23, 2018, at 10:40 PM, Lee Hart via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
>> I'm always reluctant to recommend large scale solutions relying on lead acid batteries.
>>
>> The adverse environmental impacts of plants that process them are huge, contaminating nearby communities with lead emissions for which there is no safe exposure.
>
> Lead can certainly be bad for people and the environment. But then, so can the materials in just about any battery.
>
> The key lies in *responsible* manufacturing, handling and recycling. Lead-acid batteries have been around so long that there are laws and procedures (in most developed countries) that prohibit bad practices. Upwards of 98% of the lead is recycled into new batteries. No other battery comes close. The majority of them are (sadly) thrown out as trash and wind up in landfills.
>
> --
> It is vanity to do with more that which can be done with less.
>        -- William of Ockham
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
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Re: Lead battery recycling, Not 98% (was: Delivery truck)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Let me add that the percentage of recycled batteries is not the big problem, but those that ARE recycled.

As you say, much gets recycled in other countries where there are weak laws, and lots of emissions.

But even if you look in this country, the requirements are still weak enough to cause major problems in nearby communities.

For example, even in "tough" Southern California, Exide was allowed to continue contaminating the nearby community for years, creating what may be an urban "Love Canal". Properties surrounding the facility for quite a distance are contaminated.



Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 24, 2018, at 7:07 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 24 Jan 2018 at 0:20, Bill Dube via EV wrote:
>>
>> Basically, at _least_ 35% of all lead-acid batteries are _not_ being
>> recycled.
>
> Bill, sorry, but I think this is too simplistic. For this analysis to apply,
> you'd have to assume that essentially every lead battery manufactured
> replaces an existing lead battery.  Obviously that's not the case, so of
> course some newly mined lead has to enter the manufacturing stream.  
>
> To name only one reason, each year the vehicle population worldwide
> increases about 3.5 percent.  The vast majority is ICEVs, but almost every
> one of them has a lead battery.
>
> At the same time, the 98 percent figure has always struck me as implausible.
> I've seen too many explicit counter-examples, such as the coast guard
> workers I read about who (at least used to) regularly tip spent buoy
> batteries into the deep so they wouldn't have to haul them back to port.
>
> Do you work in an office?  In the years I worked in a place that had a UPS
> at every computer workstation, the number of batteries I rescued from the
> trash and took home to my own recycling pile numbered in the dozens.  I'm
> sure I probably missed the majority of them.
>
> It's also shocking to read the harrowing accounts of third-world battery
> recycling. Apparently it's cheaper to export some batteries and other
> recyclables to low-wage countries for dismantling.  In many cases these
> nations have weak or nonexistent environmental laws, or the laws can be
> bypassed with a small cash payment.  Thousands of dirt-poor people work in
> these gigantic festering scrap piles, with no protective gear, poisoning
> themselves and their air, water, and ground day after day.  How is this
> accounted for?  Do we ignore it because they're lead-polluting some other
> country, not ours?  And shouldn't we consider the impact of shipping the
> batteries over, and the reclaimed materials back?
>
> Sure, there's a well developed recyling infrastructure for lead batteries,
> and thank goodness for it.  But what are the consequences for not using it?  
> Nobody is checking your trash.  In the end it's down to individual
> responsibility.  Good luck finding much of that,  outside of folks on this
> list.  
>
> I've seen this 98 percent battery recycling figure many times over the
> years. While (as the song says) data is not the plural of anecdote, my own
> observations, reading, and experience make me skeptical about it.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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Re: Lead battery recycling, Not 98%

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Lee Hart wrote:
 > Upwards of 98% of the lead is recycled into new batteries.

Bill Dube via EV wrote:
> Basically, at _least_ 35% of all lead-acid batteries are _not_ being
> recycled.

EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
> I've seen this 98 percent battery recycling figure many times over the
> years. While (as the song says) data is not the plural of anecdote, my own
> observations, reading, and experience make me skeptical about it.

The problem here (as in politics) lies in using extreme cases as if they
represent the middle.

For the 98% figure, I was thinking of what happens to normal lead-acid
vehicle batteries; especially EV batteries in the US. They are large and
expensive, and the cash value of a scrap battery is substantial. There
are also laws that require recycling them. So almost all of these
lead-acid batteries *do* get returned for recycling. I don't know if
it's really 98%; but it's certainly very high.

But then there's the question of who does the reprocessing? If these
batteries are reprocessed in the US, environmental laws mean that very
little lead will be lost to the environment. But for facilities outside
the US, all bets are off. There are plenty of horrible examples of how
*not* to do it. (They probably BURN old batteries for heat in Lower
Slobovia!)

I don't know the percentages of old batteries that get rebuilt in the
US, versus what get sent to third world countries where laws are lax or
nonexistent.

It's important to base our actions on fact; not alarmist extremes.
Recycling *works* for lead-acid batteries. It's a model that should be
followed for other battery types as well. It is faulty logic to say that
since *some* lead-acid batteries are not recycled, there is no point in
recycling programs at all; just ban lead outright instead.

With the growing use of other battery chemistries for EVs, it is
important to set up *more* recycling standards to cover them as well.
Right now, it is much harder to recycle nimh and lithium packs, making
it more likely that they will wind up in landfills.

--
It is vanity to do with more that which can be done with less.
         -- William of Ockham
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: Lead battery recycling, Not 98% (was: Delivery truck)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
98% recyclable, not 98% recycled.

On 24 January 2018 at 15:07, EVDL Administrator via EV
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 24 Jan 2018 at 0:20, Bill Dube via EV wrote:
>
>> Basically, at _least_ 35% of all lead-acid batteries are _not_ being
>> recycled.
>
> Bill, sorry, but I think this is too simplistic. For this analysis to apply,
> you'd have to assume that essentially every lead battery manufactured
> replaces an existing lead battery.  Obviously that's not the case, so of
> course some newly mined lead has to enter the manufacturing stream.
>
> To name only one reason, each year the vehicle population worldwide
> increases about 3.5 percent.  The vast majority is ICEVs, but almost every
> one of them has a lead battery.
>
> At the same time, the 98 percent figure has always struck me as implausible.
> I've seen too many explicit counter-examples, such as the coast guard
> workers I read about who (at least used to) regularly tip spent buoy
> batteries into the deep so they wouldn't have to haul them back to port.
>
> Do you work in an office?  In the years I worked in a place that had a UPS
> at every computer workstation, the number of batteries I rescued from the
> trash and took home to my own recycling pile numbered in the dozens.  I'm
> sure I probably missed the majority of them.
>
> It's also shocking to read the harrowing accounts of third-world battery
> recycling. Apparently it's cheaper to export some batteries and other
> recyclables to low-wage countries for dismantling.  In many cases these
> nations have weak or nonexistent environmental laws, or the laws can be
> bypassed with a small cash payment.  Thousands of dirt-poor people work in
> these gigantic festering scrap piles, with no protective gear, poisoning
> themselves and their air, water, and ground day after day.  How is this
> accounted for?  Do we ignore it because they're lead-polluting some other
> country, not ours?  And shouldn't we consider the impact of shipping the
> batteries over, and the reclaimed materials back?
>
> Sure, there's a well developed recyling infrastructure for lead batteries,
> and thank goodness for it.  But what are the consequences for not using it?
> Nobody is checking your trash.  In the end it's down to individual
> responsibility.  Good luck finding much of that,  outside of folks on this
> list.
>
> I've seen this 98 percent battery recycling figure many times over the
> years. While (as the song says) data is not the plural of anecdote, my own
> observations, reading, and experience make me skeptical about it.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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>



--
Paul Compton
www.morini-mania.co.uk
www.paulcompton.co.uk (YouTube channel)
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