Design Review - Ghia

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Design Review - Ghia

Nicolas Drouin
I am the proud new owner of a well maintained, still running, but
never restored 1972 Karmann Ghia.  I was hoping to have my component
selection reviewed prior to making any purchasing commitments.


What to you think of:

Motor:
Warp9
Type-1 VW Adapter plate
Motor mount

Controller:
Zilla 1K-LV -P
HEPA Pedal Assembly
2171S Speed Sensor Kit
Fuse: A30QS500-4
EV200 contactor with aux contacts
EV Source Controller Liquid Cooling Kit
ADDA 120mm 12V Waterproof Fan

Monitoring
PakTrakr 600EV
PakTrakr 600A Current Sensor
Current Sensor Bus Bar
PakTrakr 6-Battery Remote
PakTrakr ES1/ES1R RS-232 Interface - #500-PT-ES1R
Emeter - Link 10
Emeter - Link 10 companion board
Arduino with wifi/server [some day]

Charging:
12x Soneil 1214S (7amp) smart chargers
'bulk' charger for quick charging to 80%SOC [some day]

Bus:
IOTA - 55A 108VDC-190VDC To 12VDC DC/DC Converter

Safety:
EV200 contactor with aux contacts
EV200 contactor with aux contacts
Inertia switch
Battery fuse

Heating & Battery boxes:
Ceramic heating (better than stock!)
Heated battery boxes
(both by REV Consultants, Ottawa)


Usage:
Year-around.
Cabin to be pre-heated from 110VAC in winter.

Target Range:
Drive to work 15mile on the highway, 65mph.
Charge for 8hours
Drive home 15mile on the highway, 65mph.

Punctual Range:
Drive 30miles at <55mph

Emergency Range:
Drive to work and back 30miles on the highway, 65mph, no charging.


Batteries:
144V of AGMs
I figure I'll need about 900lbs.
Undecided for manufacturer or capacity -- help!


Have I forgotten anything?
Any component mismatches?
What about batteries?  [The typical question]

Thanks!


-Nick Drouin
Montreal, QC
http://electricghia.blogspot.com/
Soon: http://www.evalbum.com/1890
Meanwhile: http://www.evalbum.com/preview.php?vid=1890


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Re: Design Review - Ghia

Peter VanDerWal
> I am the proud new owner of a well maintained, still running, but
> never restored 1972 Karmann Ghia.  I was hoping to have my component
> selection reviewed prior to making any purchasing commitments.
-snip-

> Target Range:
> Drive to work 15mile on the highway, 65mph.
> Charge for 8hours
> Drive home 15mile on the highway, 65mph.
>
> Punctual Range:
> Drive 30miles at <55mph
>
> Emergency Range:
> Drive to work and back 30miles on the highway, 65mph, no charging.
>
>
> Batteries:
> 144V of AGMs
> I figure I'll need about 900lbs.
> Undecided for manufacturer or capacity -- help!

30 miles a day on only 900lbs of AGMs without charging is dubious.  That's
probably a 80-90% DoD with new batteries, your batteries won't last more
than a year.
I'd want to guarantee the ability to charge at work before proceeding with
that plan.
With charging at work (~500 cycles per year), the batteries might last two
years.  But I don't think they will be able to make the complete 30 mile
trip at all the second year without charging at work (i.e. no emergency
range)


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Re: Design Review - Ghia

Nicolas Drouin
On 7/17/08, Peter VanDerWal <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'd want to guarantee the ability to charge at work before proceeding with
> that plan.

Charging at work has been confirmed by my employer.


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Re: Design Review - Ghia

Doug Weathers
In reply to this post by Nicolas Drouin

nicolas drouin wrote:
> I am the proud new owner of a well maintained, still running, but
> never restored 1972 Karmann Ghia.  

Welcome to the club!  I'm converting a 1971 Ghia myself.

I was hoping to have my component
> selection reviewed prior to making any purchasing commitments.
>
>
> What to you think of:
>
> Motor:
> Warp9
> Type-1 VW Adapter plate
> Motor mount

I got a really good deal on one of the ADC 8 inch motors designed for
the Corbin Sparrow, so I have an 8incher.  The 9 will be a tight fit;
you may need to modify your sheet metal.

I don't think you need a "motor mount".  The original (heavier) gas
engine just bolts to the transaxle with four big bolts.  If your adapter
uses the same bolts you should be fine.

I purchased the adapter from Electro Automotive and was very pleased
with the quality.

>
> Controller:
> Zilla 1K-LV -P
> HEPA Pedal Assembly
> 2171S Speed Sensor Kit
> Fuse: A30QS500-4
> EV200 contactor with aux contacts
> EV Source Controller Liquid Cooling Kit
> ADDA 120mm 12V Waterproof Fan

I ordered the high voltage Zilla since my system voltage is 192V.  I
also chose not to use the HEPA pedal, but it was a close call.

I chose the Albright SW200 contactor (two in series, actually), but
again a close call.

>
> Monitoring
> PakTrakr 600EV
> PakTrakr 600A Current Sensor
> Current Sensor Bus Bar
> PakTrakr 6-Battery Remote
> PakTrakr ES1/ES1R RS-232 Interface - #500-PT-ES1R

Cool, same here.

> Emeter - Link 10
> Emeter - Link 10 companion board

Why do you want both of these?  The Paktrakr can also tell you the SoC
of the pack, but the Link-10 can't tell you the status of individual
batteries like the PakTrakr can.

> Arduino with wifi/server [some day]
>
> Charging:
> 12x Soneil 1214S (7amp) smart chargers

Let's see, 12 chargers x 14V x 7A = 1176 watts.  That's a fair amount of
heat.  You'll want to mount them where they get good airflow.  Have you
seen John Bryan's setup?

<http://www.evalbum.com/34>

He mounted them into his rear fenders and installed cooling fans.

I = W/V = 1176/120 = 9.8 amps.  Should be OK at the outlet as long as
there isn't much else plugged in.

You'll have to keep a sharp eye on those chargers!  If one fails and
doesn't charge a battery, and you drive off anyway, that battery will
fail pretty spectacularly.  You'll probably want a few spare chargers on
hand, with one in the vehicle.

The PakTrakr will help with this.  So can the Arduino.  You can have the
Arduino read the serial data output by the PakTrakr and drive a larger
LCD display to give you a nice bar graph of your battery voltages.

Like this item:

<http://www.wacparts.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7&products_id=32>

but for more than eight batteries.

> 'bulk' charger for quick charging to 80%SOC [some day]
>
> Bus:
> IOTA - 55A 108VDC-190VDC To 12VDC DC/DC Converter
>
> Safety:
> EV200 contactor with aux contacts
> EV200 contactor with aux contacts

Just out of curiosity, why two safety contactors?

> Inertia switch
> Battery fuse
>
> Heating & Battery boxes:
> Ceramic heating (better than stock!)
> Heated battery boxes
> (both by REV Consultants, Ottawa)

Very nice!  My cabin heat will be from a heater made by Canadian EV.  I
don't plan on heating my batteries as I live in southern New Mexico
where it doesn't get very cold.

>
>
> Usage:
> Year-around.
> Cabin to be pre-heated from 110VAC in winter.
>
> Target Range:
> Drive to work 15mile on the highway, 65mph.
> Charge for 8hours
> Drive home 15mile on the highway, 65mph.
>
> Punctual Range:
> Drive 30miles at <55mph

That's about the performance envelope I calculated for my pack, which is
sixteen Exide Orbitals at 41 pounds each = 656 lbs of battery.  Assuming
I did it right, you're probably OK.

>
> Emergency Range:
> Drive to work and back 30miles on the highway, 65mph, no charging.

That's going to be really hard on your pack.  It would have to be a real
emergency.

>
>
> Batteries:
> 144V of AGMs
> I figure I'll need about 900lbs.
> Undecided for manufacturer or capacity -- help!

144V of buddy-paired Orbitals: 24 batteries * 41 lbs = 984 lbs, about right.

You'll definitely be over the GVWR of the Ghia.  I hear that's an issue
in Canada.

You may have problems fitting them in.  I managed to fit eight where the
gas tank was and eight behind the rear seat, leaving the engine bay free
and the back seat as usable as it ever was :P  I guesstimate you could
fit 4-8 where the back seat is, and another 4-8 in the engine bay with a
certain amount of welding.

But then again you said that REV is building your battery boxes, so I
guess that's sorted then.

And of course the Soneil chargers might not work very well with buddy
pairs, or you might have to get 24 of them - which could be a problem
with amp draw.

>
>
> Have I forgotten anything?

You might want some watertight boxes to put your electronics into, if
they're going to be in the engine bay.

The low-voltage Zillas have an enormous lead time - around six months.
The HV version is slightly faster to ship at four months.  Check the
Cafe Electric blog for more information:

<http://www.cafeelectricpress.com/blog/>

Make sure the mechanicals of the car are good, esp. the brakes!  Check
alignment, transaxle fluid, shocks, etc.

Your clutch may need upgrading to handle the torque from the Warp9.

Speaking of shocks, you're going to need to upgrade your suspension.
You might want to talk to a VW shop in your area.  I had my local guy
put air shocks in the rear.  I should have had him do the front, too,
but I ran out of time before we moved.

> Any component mismatches?
> What about batteries?  [The typical question]

I like the Orbitals.  Sealed, built-in handles, you can just bolt them
down to a shelf using 8inch bolts, and they produce up to 1000 amps when
asked.  I don't know what the PakTrakr will think about buddy pairs,
though, and there's the charger issue too.

>
> Thanks!
>
>
> -Nick Drouin
> Montreal, QC
> http://electricghia.blogspot.com/
> Soon: http://www.evalbum.com/1890
> Meanwhile: http://www.evalbum.com/preview.php?vid=1890
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://www.gdunge.com


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Re: Design Review - Ghia

Roger Stockton
Doug Weathers wrote:

> Why do you want both of these?  The Paktrakr can also tell
> you the SoC of the pack, but the Link-10 can't tell you the
> status of individual batteries like the PakTrakr can.

Unless your PakTrakr is different from mine, it can measure current with the optional sensor, but does not track energy usage.  That is, it can tell you how much current is flowing at the present time, and perhaps what the instantaneous power is, but not how many Ah or kWh you have consumed from or returned to the pack.

The PakTrakr is a good device for monitoring the relative health of your modules; the E-Meter/Link-10 is a good device for monitoring the SoC of the pack.

> > Charging:
> > 12x Soneil 1214S (7amp) smart chargers
>
> Let's see, 12 chargers x 14V x 7A = 1176 watts.  That's a
> fair amount of heat.  You'll want to mount them where they
> get good airflow.

Not sure what you're thinking of here.  14V @ 7A is the power output to the battery from each charger, not what it rejects as heat.

The total delivered to the battery (your calcs) is 1176W; this is actually the *peak* total power, and assuming 85% efficiency the input power is about 1384W, so the 12 charger reject about 208W as heat.  This is still about 17W/charger so providing some cooling airflow is definitely in order.

> 144V of buddy-paired Orbitals: 24 batteries * 41 lbs = 984
> lbs, about right.

My opinion is to avoid buddy-pairs unless there really is no alternative.  I'd counter-propose a single 144V string of Odyssey PC2150s (group 31), at 75lbs each, for right on 900lbs:

<http://www.odysseybatteries.com/battery/pc2150.htm>

Indeed, since Nicholas is planning on a Z1K anyway, might as well go all the way up to its 156V limit with 975lbs of the PC2150s.

The worst case of 30mi @ 65mph is about a 30min discharge.  The PC2150 offers 116Ah when discharged in 30min.  At an average voltage under load of 11.4V/module, this means you could sustain about 15.8kW for 30min with a 144V string, or just over 17kW with a 156V string.

Taking the lower end of this, 15kW for 30min, or 7.5kWh to travel 30mi is 250Wh/mi @ 65mph.  Assuming you are somewhere around Montreal, the terrain is pretty flat and given the Ghia's reputation for efficiency as a conversion you might just meet or better this consumption.

Still, as others have noted, this is pretty close to a 100%DOD cycle for the pack, and once the pack ages such that it has less than rated capacity available you may not be able to make the 30mi emergency roundtrip, at least not without slowing down ;^>

The Soneils would almost certainly not be adequate for charging the Odysseys, however.

Cheers,

Roger.



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Re: Design Review - Ghia

jerryd
In reply to this post by Nicolas Drouin

         Hi Nick and All,

             Any particular reason you want to spend 3-4x's
as much as needed?

----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "nicolas drouin" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Subject: [EVDL] Design Review - Ghia
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 12:16:39 -0400

>I am the proud new owner of a well maintained, still
>running, but never restored 1972 Karmann Ghia.  I was
>hoping to have my component selection reviewed prior to
>making any purchasing commitments.
>
>
>What to you think of:
>
>Motor:
>Warp9
>Type-1 VW Adapter plate
>Motor mount

       Both the motor and adapter are too expensive. You
could do with a much smaller motor, a 6.7" even. Or do as I
do and buy a forklift motor for under a couple hundred
bucks.
       Adapters are not hard to do. And for $500 you can buy
new tools to do the job and come out way ahead.

>
>Controller:
>Zilla 1K-LV -P
>HEPA Pedal Assembly
>2171S Speed Sensor Kit
>Fuse: A30QS500-4
>EV200 contactor with aux contacts
>EV Source Controller Liquid Cooling Kit
>ADDA 120mm 12V Waterproof Fan

        For about $600 an Altrax 7245 would do what you
need. Save $2-3k!!


>
>Monitoring
>PakTrakr 600EV
>PakTrakr 600A Current Sensor
>Current Sensor Bus Bar
>PakTrakr 6-Battery Remote
>PakTrakr ES1/ES1R RS-232 Interface - #500-PT-ES1R

          Good I hope.

>Arduino with wifi/server [some day]
>
>Charging:
>12x Soneil 1214S (7amp) smart chargers
>'bulk' charger for quick charging to 80%SOC [some day]

          Dangerous and not needed. If one dies, your batt
on it will be destroyed when run dead way before the others.
>
>Bus:
>IOTA - 55A 108VDC-190VDC To 12VDC DC/DC Converter
>
>Safety:
>EV200 contactor with aux contacts
>EV200 contactor with aux contacts
>Inertia switch
>Battery fuse

          Lower voltage use forklift or surplus contactors.

>
>Heating & Battery boxes:
>Ceramic heating (better than stock!)
>Heated battery boxes
>(both by REV Consultants, Ottawa)
>
>
>Usage:
>Year-around.
>Cabin to be pre-heated from 110VAC in winter.
>
>Target Range:
>Drive to work 15mile on the highway, 65mph.
>Charge for 8hours
>Drive home 15mile on the highway, 65mph.
>
>Punctual Range:
>Drive 30miles at <55mph
>
>Emergency Range:
>Drive to work and back 30miles on the highway, 65mph, no
>charging.
>
>
>Batteries:
>144V of AGMs

        AGM's have less range/lb and cost about 3-4x's as
much as GC batts.
        I'd go to 72vdc of T105-125 batts,
Trojan/USBatt/EastPenn/Deka for 720/792 lbs will get you how
far, fast you want easily. I'd put my money in used Prius
tires and syn lubes and other drag lowering details.
       John Bryan got his Ghia down to 100wthrs/mile which
should be your goal. If you can, the pack could get you
60-80 mile range, 400mpg energy cost wise making a very cost
effective EV.
       By the time this lightly used pack dies in 5-7 yrs,
Li will be priced right giving you as much range as you
want.
       Or get EV gadgetitus and pay a lot more.
       I'm about to do a Superbeetle for about $1500 out of
pocket plus the $900 glider with new GC batts. When I do it
I'll make an adapter to be sold with a forklift motor
mounted, ready to bolt in for a very low cost like $500-600!
There is no reason EV's need to be expensive.
                                   Jerry Dycus


>I figure I'll need about 900lbs.
>Undecided for manufacturer or capacity -- help!
>
>
>Have I forgotten anything?
>Any component mismatches?
>What about batteries?  [The typical question]
>
>Thanks!
>
>
>-Nick Drouin
>Montreal, QC
>http://electricghia.blogspot.com/
>Soon: http://www.evalbum.com/1890
>Meanwhile: http://www.evalbum.com/preview.php?vid=1890
>
>


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Re: Design Review - Ghia

Doug Weathers
In reply to this post by Roger Stockton
Hi Peter,

Thanks for the input.

On Jul 17, 2008, at 4:34 PM, Roger Stockton wrote:

> Unless your PakTrakr is different from mine, it can measure current
> with the optional sensor, but does not track energy usage.  That is,
> it can tell you how much current is flowing at the present time, and
> perhaps what the instantaneous power is, but not how many Ah or kWh
> you have consumed from or returned to the pack.

This information is not 100% correlated with the SoC of the pack.  It's
possible to calculate an SoC without counting coulombs.

I don't know how it's doing it, but the PakTrakr has a "fuel gauge"
display, and the documentation says it displays the SoC.

>
> The PakTrakr is a good device for monitoring the relative health of
> your modules; the E-Meter/Link-10 is a good device for monitoring the
> SoC of the pack.

Are you saying that the Link-10 is a "good" SoC meter and the PakTrakr
is a "not so good" SoC meter?  Have you compared them and found the
PakTrakr wanting?

>
>>> Charging:
>>> 12x Soneil 1214S (7amp) smart chargers
>>
>> Let's see, 12 chargers x 14V x 7A = 1176 watts.  That's a
>> fair amount of heat.  You'll want to mount them where they
>> get good airflow.
>
> Not sure what you're thinking of here.  14V @ 7A is the power output
> to the battery from each charger, not what it rejects as heat.
>
> The total delivered to the battery (your calcs) is 1176W; this is
> actually the *peak* total power, and assuming 85% efficiency the input
> power is about 1384W, so the 12 charger reject about 208W as heat.  
> This is still about 17W/charger so providing some cooling airflow is
> definitely in order.

Right, thanks for the correction.

>
>> 144V of buddy-paired Orbitals: 24 batteries * 41 lbs = 984
>> lbs, about right.
>
> My opinion is to avoid buddy-pairs unless there really is no
> alternative.

I wasn't advocating the buddy pairs, just using the one battery that I
have experience with to check his results.  I wasn't very clear, sorry
about that.

--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://www.gdunge.com/


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Re: Design Review - Ghia

Roger Stockton
Doug Weathers wrote:

> This information is not 100% correlated with the SoC of the
> pack.  It's possible to calculate an SoC without counting coulombs.
>
> I don't know how it's doing it, but the PakTrakr has a "fuel gauge"
> display, and the documentation says it displays the SoC.

We know generally how it is being done since the only information available to the PakTrakr is the module voltages; the current sensor is an optional accessory, and so is not required by the SoC estimation routines.

> Are you saying that the Link-10 is a "good" SoC meter and the
> PakTrakr is a "not so good" SoC meter?  Have you compared
> them and found the PakTrakr wanting?

I am indeed saying that the Link-10 is a "good" SoC meter, an opinion shared by many who have used one.

I have not yet directly compared the PakTrakr and E-Meter SoC estimates, but voltage-only based SoC indicators have traditionally been found to be less accurate than one that considers current  as well as voltage.  Indeed, I don't personally use even the E-Meter's fuel gauge, but instead rely on its Ah and kWh tracking to indicate the energy used and remaining.

I have evaluated the accuracy of the PakTrakr voltage sensing and the variation from channel to channel is such that I would consider any modules indicated by it to be within about +/-0.2V of each other to be identical in voltage.  I think the value of a PakTrakr while driving is in the "realtime" display of module behaviour relative to each other so that one can immediately see if there is a "stinker" sagging badly under load.  I would recommend that if one is planning to use the data-logging feature that they first compare the readings for each channel with a known good DVM measuring the same voltage and from these readings compute correction factors to be applied to each channel of the system (i.e. each channel will have its own correction factor).

For 12V modules the PakTrakr resolution is a bit coarse, but there really isn't much of anything else out there and it is, I think, pretty reasonably priced.

Cheers,

Roger.


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Re: Design Review - Ghia

Nicolas Drouin
There's lots of feedback here, so I'll try to take it bit by bit and
consolidate the thread and ideas.

Thanks to Doug, Roger, Jerry!



Doug Weathers wrote:
DW> Welcome to the club!  I'm converting a 1971 Ghia myself.
Yes, I've been keeping an eye on the completed and in-work Ghia's.
I've been in contact with John Bryan for some details on his, I'll
share these later.


>> Motor:
>> Warp9
>> Type-1 VW Adapter plate
>> Motor mount

DW> The 9 will be a tight fit; you may need to modify your sheet metal.
I don't have the Ghia in the driveway yet, so I haven't taken
measurements.  I'll double-check the fit of the 9".

Jerry Dycus wrote:
JD> You could do with a much smaller motor, a 6.7" even.
Yes, the 9" might be overkill, but I'm not driving on quite country
roads here, this is full-on metropolitan highway traffic.  If you've
ever driven in Montreal, you'd know what I'm talking about.  The slow
lane is 65mph the fast is 75mph -- and this is in full traffic (less
than 2seconds of following distance).

JD> Adapters are not hard to do.
I know, I just don't have the time, so it will be purchased.  Trust
me, I wish I had a mini-lathe and mill in the basement; or the time to
drop in on my contacts at the machine shop at my alma-matter. Its a
trade-off I'm willing to live with.  In fact, this applies to other
component decisions: yes, I could to this cheaper, but with the
limited time I have, and to get this on the road by November, this is
the route I'm taking.  If you have substitutions which do not require
more time invested, I'm all ears!

DW> I don't think you need a "motor mount".
I plan on playing it by ear for the additional mounting point -- while
the motor is lighter, I think the centre of gravity will be further
from the mounting points (its long, not high and wide like the ICE),
so I might need to support it at the back.  We'll see.

DW> I purchased the adapter from Electro Automotive and was very
pleased with the quality.
It will be electo-auto or CanEV, probably the latter to support the
Canadian EV scene. [Please spare me the protectionist rhetoric,
importing from the states costs me taxes, duties and additional
shipping]



>> Controller:
>> Zilla 1K-LV -P
>> HEPA Pedal Assembly
>> 2171S Speed Sensor Kit
>> Fuse: A30QS500-4
>> EV200 contactor with aux contacts
>> EV Source Controller Liquid Cooling Kit
>> ADDA 120mm 12V Waterproof Fan


DW> I also chose not to use the HEPA pedal, but it was a close call.
I'm trying to reduce the mechanical aspects of the car, a pot-box with
cable wasn't appealing in that respect.

DW> I chose the Albright SW200 contactor (two in series, actually),
but again a close call.
I think I perfer the enclosed aspect of the EV200's (cleaner), and the
isolated aux contacts: less likely to fry the Arduino's digital inputs
than trying to sense directly over the loaded contactor.

Why two in series?

[I'll probably get the cooling kit from whomever I can get a zilla
from... an uphill battle that one!]


> Monitoring
> PakTrakr 600EV
> PakTrakr 600A Current Sensor
> Current Sensor Bus Bar
> PakTrakr 6-Battery Remote
> PakTrakr ES1/ES1R RS-232 Interface - #500-PT-ES1R

Looks like everyone, so far, is on the same page for this one.  I
figure since I'm using AGMs and separate chargers, individual
monitoring and reporting is a MUST.

> Emeter - Link 10
> Emeter - Link 10 companion board

To address Roger Stockton's thread:
I too believe that only an integrating algorithm which uses both
amperage and voltage will provide accurate information on the state of
charge -- but even this would have to be temperature compensated to
provide true SOC.
I was under the impression that the PakTrakr was only an instantaneous
display device; if this is not the case, could someone provide more
detail?

DW> You can have the Arduino read the serial data output by the
PakTrakr and drive a larger LCD display to give you a nice bar graph
of your battery voltages.
Yeah, that's the idea.  I'm a software integration specialist for CAE
(flight simulators).  I deal with hardware and software interfaces all
day long.  If I come up with something worthwhile on the Arduino for
EVs, I'll make it open-source -- I really admire Lee Harts approach.

>> Charging:
>> 12x Soneil 1214S (7amp) smart chargers

To answer all threads: yes, I know, if one charger dies and I go for a
drive, it's battery is toast.  I hope to have the Arduino drive a
relay on the ignition switch preventing startup in this case.  But
I've source the chargers for 69$CND.  The alternative, regs and a 144V
charger, is way more expensive -- just the regs are 40$USD -- and that
too has the same failure mode.

DW> That's a fair amount of heat.
RS> providing some cooling airflow is definitely in order.
I'll keep cooling in mind; actually, their placement will be decided
by Richard at REV Consultants.  So I'll let him tackle it, he's done
it before.

RS> My opinion is to avoid buddy-pairs unless there really is no
alternative.  I'd counter-propose a single 144V string of Odyssey
PC2150s (group 31), at 75lbs each, for right on 900lbs:


>> Batteries:
>> 144V of AGMs
>> I figure I'll need about 900lbs.
>> Undecided for manufacturer or capacity -- help!


DW> 144V of buddy-paired Orbitals: 24 batteries * 41 lbs = 984 lbs, about right.
RS> My opinion is to avoid buddy-pairs unless there really is no
alternative.  I'd counter-propose a single 144V string of Odyssey
PC2150s (group 31), at 75lbs each, for right on 900lbs:

Buddy pairs are out: no room, harder to integrate and maintain.
In my sights are:
Odyssey PC2150S
Universal Batteries UB-121100 / PowerSonic PS-121100

A local manufacturer, PowerBattery offers the MCG-120, TG-12110S,
WCG-31C, PSG-12120, TL-1295, MRG-31; all of which are Group31 and seem
to offer 66AHr at the 1Hr rate -- same spec as the PC2150S.


DW> You'll definitely be over the GVWR of the Ghia.  I hear that's an
issue in Canada.
Definitely an issue if you are an modifying OEM cars and selling them
as new (RVs, ambulances, etc.).  The GVWR for the 1972 Ghia is
2615lbs.   There are overweight EVs in Quebec, at least three that I
know of.  All are fully registered/plated/insured.  The SAAQ (Quebec's
DOT), seemed mostly concerned with weight distribution and
ride-height.  These can be addressed with battery placement and
suspension improvements.  I am also not opposed to re-enforcing the
frame, if required; this is a daily driver, not a show-car.

RS> The Soneils would almost certainly not be adequate for charging
the Odysseys, however.
Roger, can you quantify this statement?
If we are still working from 7.5kWh to travel 30miles, charging at
7amps at 144VDC, this would take 7.5hrs to put back in for my
emergency range, 3.25hrs for my one-way commute.  [Here is where my
knowledge and experience breaks down, please correct this statement]

Put another way, if I run 15miles at an assumed (worst-case!) 250Wh/mi
average, that's 3.75KW used.  Charge-time should be 3750W/(7A*144V)=
3h:45min.


JD> AGM's have less range/lb and cost about 3-4x's as much as GC batts.
True, but as you can see from my charger choice, this will be a plug
and forget EV.  Floodies don't offer that feature.  I also can't
afford to have corrosive/explosive vapors floating around, the car
will be parked inside the garage all winter, just under my daughter's
room -- venting is simply out of the question.

JD>John Bryan got his Ghia down to 100wthrs/mile which should be your goal.
I'm not sure it was that low, just today he mentioned to me that he
gets roughly 50amps at 55mph on a 192V pack. This is closer to
175Wh/mile.
At the end of his specs:
http://www.evalbum.com/34
He mentions that he tried the floodies and got better results from
AGMs; I feel no need to try to prove him wrong.
I will definitely use synthetic lubrication everywhere.


DW> You may have problems fitting them in.  I managed to fit eight
where the gas tank was and eight behind the rear seat, leaving the
engine bay free and the back seat as usable as it ever was :P  I
guesstimate you could fit 4-8 where the back seat is, and another 4-8
in the engine bay with a certain amount of welding.
I asked this very question to John Bryan yesterday.  He has:
- 4 in the back, (2 on each side of the engine)
- 4 in the front
- 4 under the back seat, (two on each side of the tunnel)
- 4 in a row under the package tray (Those are in a rack that's sunk
down just above the transmission)
Since you are using Orbitals and don't need to heat your boxes, you
should be able to reproduce this layout, if you prefer to retain the
inside of you package tray.


>> Safety:
>> EV200 contactor with aux contacts
>> EV200 contactor with aux contacts
>> Inertia switch
>> Battery fuse

DW> Just out of curiosity, why two safety contactors?
I plan on disconnecting and splitting the pack to 2x 72V when charging or off.


>> Heating & Battery boxes:
>> Ceramic heating (better than stock!)
>> Heated battery boxes
>> (both by REV Consultants, Ottawa)

DW> Very nice!  My cabin heat will be from a heater made by Canadian EV.
Me too.  Richard at REV will be doing the integration and battery box
layout/design.  Most of the components will come from CanEV.  Richard
is only free in September.  I plan on collecting parts until then,
cleaning up the car, etc.  If I feel ambitious, I'll start the ICE,
fuel, starter extraction and begin mounting the motor.  It would be
very satisfying to make her move a few feet due to my own efforts, but
I don't think I'll find the time; so Richard will probably get all the fun!


DW>You might want some watertight boxes to put your electronics into,
if they're going to be in the engine bay.
I figure Richard will be on top of that.

DW> Make sure the mechanicals of the car are good, esp. the brakes!
Check alignment, transaxle fluid, shocks, etc.
That's in the plan.  I just have to find a good VW guy in town.

DW> Your clutch may need upgrading to handle the torque from the Warp9.
The car is a matched chassis/engine, the clutch may be original, it
which case it will definitely have to go.

DW> Speaking of shocks, you're going to need to upgrade your
suspension. [...]  I had my local guy put air shocks in the rear.  I
should have had him do the front, too[.]
I was discussing this with Richard, it might be the way to go.


All comments are welcome.  Any experience with the bats I've
mentioned?  Other ideas?


-Nick
http://www.evalbum.com/1890


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Re: Design Review - Ghia

Roger Stockton
nicolas drouin wrote:

> DW> I don't think you need a "motor mount".
> I plan on playing it by ear for the additional mounting point
> -- while the motor is lighter, I think the centre of gravity
> will be further from the mounting points (its long, not high
> and wide like the ICE), so I might need to support it at the
> back.  We'll see.

I'd suggest a motor mount supporting the rear of the motor.  Not that the weight of the motor is  a concern here, but the torque reaction when you accelerate forwards will try to rotate the nose of the transaxle upwards and the rear (motor) downwards.  The shift linkage enters the transaxle through the nose cone, and the tranny is supported by 3 mounts; one under the nose cone and two attaching the bottom "corners" of the bell housing to the frame horns.  It is not uncommon for the nose cone of the transaxle to crack, even with ICE power.

I installed such a mount under the rear of the ICE in the last Type 1 I built up and it was a very worthwhile improvement.

> To address Roger Stockton's thread:
> I too believe that only an integrating algorithm which uses
> both amperage and voltage will provide accurate information
> on the state of charge -- but even this would have to be
> temperature compensated to provide true SOC.

The E-Meter includes temperature compensation of capacity, provided you equip it with the optional temperature sensor.

However, you stated you plan on heated battery boxes, in which case you sidestep the issue of temperature effects on battery capacity.

> I was under the impression that the PakTrakr was only an
> instantaneous display device; if this is not the case, could
> someone provide more detail?

See page 2 of:

<http://www.paktrakr.com/files/PakTrakr_Display_Installation_Guide_6-29.pdf>

The display can indicate pack SOC, and histograms of the lowest daily SOC for the last 30 days, or average hourly SOC for the last 30 hours, or SOC over the last 30 minutes.

> But I've source the chargers for 69$CND.  The alternative,
> regs and a 144V charger, is way more expensive -- just the
> regs are 40$USD -- and that too has the same failure mode.

For 12 batteries the Soneils add up to about $830, which is very nearly the same as the $900 cost of a single 144V 15A Zivan NG3 that will charge in half the time as the 7A Soneils and will simplify the wiring and mounting/space considerations.

The downside to the NG3 is that unless you turn it down a bit to reduce the line draw its poor power factor will often prevent you from charging from a typical 15A circuit.

Regs are not a foregone conclusion.  If you have the PakTakr providing you with individual module voltages, you can have your Arduino take action as required, or you can build and install some of Lee's zener regs/clampers, etc.

> Buddy pairs are out: no room, harder to integrate and maintain.
> In my sights are:
> Odyssey PC2150S
> Universal Batteries UB-121100 / PowerSonic PS-121100
>
> A local manufacturer, PowerBattery offers the MCG-120,
> TG-12110S, WCG-31C, PSG-12120, TL-1295, MRG-31; all of which
> are Group31 and seem to offer 66AHr at the 1Hr rate -- same
> spec as the PC2150S.

I've worked with Power Battery on charging their batteries for an EV application.  I cannot comment on the longevity of them, but I will note that the cases of the model I worked with seemed "flimsy".  i.e. the walls seemed thinner/more flexible than other AGMs I've worked with and it seemed to me that they may be great in stationary (UPS) applications but might not stand up to the rigours of an on-road application.

If the price is good enough to warrant giving them a try, I would look first at one of their high-rate UPS models since your application will be cycling them at the 30-60min rate.

> RS> The Soneils would almost certainly not be adequate for charging
> the Odysseys, however.
> Roger, can you quantify this statement?

<http://www.odysseybatteries.com/charging.htm>

Odyssey == Hawker batteries, and Hawker/Enersys/Odyssey like their batteries to be charged with fairly significant currents.

I am working with Enersys on an algorithm for their group 31 batteries at the moment because they are concerned that a 12A charger will be unable to adequately charge their batteries simply by following their published recommendations.  If they have doubts about a 12A charger's abilities, the 7A Soneils haven't a chance. ;^>

> If we are still working from 7.5kWh to travel 30miles,
> charging at 7amps at 144VDC, this would take 7.5hrs to put
> back in for my emergency range, 3.25hrs for my one-way
> commute.  [Here is where my knowledge and experience breaks
> down, please correct this statement]
>
> Put another way, if I run 15miles at an assumed (worst-case!)
> 250Wh/mi average, that's 3.75KW used.  Charge-time should be
> 3750W/(7A*144V)= 3h:45min.

Nope.  The charger(s) will not run at full current from start to finish.

The 3.75kWh is about 26Ah @ 144V removed from the battery.  If your chargers ran at full output of 7A it would take about 3.7hrs for them to return 26Ah.

However, the charger(s) can only run at full output until the battery is about 80% full, which in this case is about 21Ah.  At 7A, that is 3hrs to get about 80% of the removed Ah back.  It typically takes about this long again to completely charge, so figure on 6-7hrs for a complete recharge.

> DW> Just out of curiosity, why two safety contactors?
> I plan on disconnecting and splitting the pack to 2x 72V when
> charging or off.

Something you might consider is using a pair of contactors between the pack and loads, one on the pack negative and one on the pack positive lead.  Let the Zilla control the positive contactor and have the negative contactor come on with the keyswitch.

If you want the ability to split the pack when working on the car, etc., install a breaker in the middle of the pack.  For convenience sake, perhaps install the breaker between the front and rear packs even if that ends up dividing the pack unequally instead of 72/72.

This is basically how my own EV is wired.  A Kilovac EV250 in series with the pack negative lead  pulls in and latches on when I turn the keywitch to the 'start' position; another EV250 in series with the positive lead pulls in under control of the motor controller.  A Hienemman (sp?) breaker is wired roughly in the middle of the pack and is mounted so that its toggle sticks up through the floor beneath the handbrake handle.  This allows the controller to drop power is it detects a fault before I notice, and for me to drop power by turning off the ignition or by flipping the breaker (without any push/pull cables or other linkages between me and the breaker to interfere).  Both contactors are powered through an inertia switch so they will also drop out immediately in the event of a collision.  Finally, there is an Anderson SB350 connector between the pack positive and negative leads and the rest of the electrical system so that I can unplug the pack from the electrical system!
  entirely quickly and easily.

> DW> Speaking of shocks, you're going to need to upgrade your
> suspension. [...]  I had my local guy put air shocks in the
> rear.  I should have had him do the front, too[.] I was
> discussing this with Richard, it might be the way to go.

Bear in mind that shocks are meant to dampen the suspension, not support the vehicle.  At the rear of the vehicle this may not be a large issue since the shock mounts are pretty solid (they are literally solid ;^), but I wouldn't personally want to use air or coilover shocks on the front to support the car as the shock towers on the front beam aren't particularly strong and are subject to weakening from rust.

I think the rear suspension of the Ghia is the same torsion bar arrangement as the Type I (Beetle), and it is a fairly easy task to swap the torsion bars out for beefier units.  Or, at the least, to crank up the preload on the bars to restore ride height even if you don't increase the spring rate.  (The inner and outer ends of the bars are splined differently such that finer adjustments may be made if necessary.)

I think the big suspension difference between the Ghia and Type I is the torsion bar arrangement in the front beam.  The Type I uses torsion bars composed of a stack of thin flat 'leafs', and each bar runs the full width of the beam with a trailing arm connected to each end and the center anchored to the front beam housing.  I recall the Ghia arrangement being different, but don't recall the specifics...  With the Type I, ride height is usually adjusted by cutting the portion of the front beam tubes that anchors the torsion bars and rotating them, then welding them back together.  Or buying a new front beam housing that has already been raised or lowered or modified to allow the center anchor section(s) to be adjusted via a pair of bolts.  I expect one can also buy stiffer torsion bars for the front, but what can also work (though I'm sure it isn't a "proper" approach ;^) is to remove the existing bars and reinstall them turned over.

Cheers,

Roger.


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Re: Design Review - Ghia

John Bryan-2
In reply to this post by Nicolas Drouin
Nicolas and All,

    It looks like you're getting some great advice on converting
your Ghia. I looked at the picture and it's a real beauty.

> JD>John Bryan got his Ghia down to 100wthrs/mile which should be your goal.
> I'm not sure it was that low, just today he mentioned to me that he
> gets roughly 50amps at 55mph on a 192V pack. This is closer to
> 175Wh/mile.

    I honestly can't accurately remember, I was just taking a WAG.
The figure is lower than that, but I can't remember how much lower.
I've taken the car out of service for a while, so haven't been driving it.
Like I said, I've posted many times in the past about actual current
draw figures - such high efficiencies that no one except Jerry Dycus,
who has actual experience with ultra-high efficiencies, ever believes it.
If you pay attention to the efficiency details, you'll be amazed at how
little energy your car uses.

John


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Re: Design Review - Ghia

Nicolas Drouin
Hi John,
Yeah, the responce has been great!  I'll look over the old  posts,
mostly for the tips and tricks that can improve efficiency.
Cheers,
-Nick

On 7/18/08, John Bryan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Nicolas and All,
>
>    It looks like you're getting some great advice on converting
> your Ghia. I looked at the picture and it's a real beauty.
>
> > JD>John Bryan got his Ghia down to 100wthrs/mile which should be your goal.
> > I'm not sure it was that low, just today he mentioned to me that he
> > gets roughly 50amps at 55mph on a 192V pack. This is closer to
> > 175Wh/mile.
>
>    I honestly can't accurately remember, I was just taking a WAG.
> The figure is lower than that, but I can't remember how much lower.
> I've taken the car out of service for a while, so haven't been driving it.
> Like I said, I've posted many times in the past about actual current
> draw figures - such high efficiencies that no one except Jerry Dycus,
> who has actual experience with ultra-high efficiencies, ever believes it.
> If you pay attention to the efficiency details, you'll be amazed at how
> little energy your car uses.
>
> John
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>


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