Donor truck questions

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Donor truck questions

electruck
What are the Pros and Cons of using a 4x4  for a conversion?   and
ditto on the  S-10 Blazer vs  S-10 pickup?   Ideally what I'd like to
find is an extended cab or a crew cab even better  -  but I suspect
that those might work, they would be as good as something with less
cab and more bed  for  battery placement etc.
I'm finding some interesting S-10s  (fairly recent years, 1995- 2003
or so)  that I'm thinking of acquiring as a replacement donor to the
'86 I bought and abused and is not longer appropriate for the task.
Among the prospective donors are some  nice looking 4x4s  which I'm
thinking are less that perfect for what I'm planning.  I thought
mehbeh a 4x4 would lend itself to a 4 motor (motor / wheel) strategy,
but on thinking this thru further,  probably a two motor set up (one
motor for front wheels and one for rear wheels, might be more
realistic.)

Another quandry is in looking for a donor with a weak, or dead engine,
I find more people that claim to have just spent a bundle on new parts
to the ICE  lolz
I will try and be patient about this, as this time I want to get it
right....  anybody in the market for a cheap 86 S-10  with cracked
windshield, a few minor dents etc??

TIA   :D

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Re: Donor truck questions

brucedp5
This post was updated on .
Back in 1990 when I began my EV conversion fact finding quest, it was a
different time and the components available were of an older generation,
but if I were to get a used or have built for me another conversion, I
would have close the same EV driving needs. These needs vary with
each driver and you need to know what yours will be for the next 5 to
10 years of driving your EV conversion. Then your baby will suit your
driving needs most of the time.

In my case, I physically needed a larger donor vehicle because of the
body God gave me (my 17EEEE shoe can cover all three pedals on a VW
Rabbit). So, I was looking at either a light truck or Blazer/Bronco type
of donor (a smallish big vehicle). If I got a sedan, I would need to
beef up the suspension and brakes, whereas a truck or Blazer built on a
truck chassis would already have that.

Back then, a standard S-10 cab was a tight fit for my long lanky legs
(imagine my knees up in the air on either side of my face while
driving). There were few king cabs that did not offer much more room.
But a Blazer did. Also, my EV driving needs was to promote EVs, so I
needed the additional passenger space to give rides at EVents/shows.

Today, light trucks have much more leg room, and I do not have that same
need to promote EVs as in the 1990's, because 2010+ Production EVs can
easily be bought (all us EVangels did so good a job, I am not needed to
run around banging the EV-gong anymore. Good job everyone!).

So, today I might choose a truck instead of a Blazer. Along with enough
leg room, I would want to have a long-bed, so I could put a shell on it.
That would allow me to not only carry and secure items in the back, but
if on a long trip with only slow level-1 charging available, I could crawl
in the back and take a nap to kill some time. That last bit would have
been nice on the many long trips I took in my S-10 Blazer conversion
(trying to sleep in the seat was not fun).

The truck allows you to place your racks below the bed, and put a
tilt-bed mechanism on it so you will have easy access for pack
maintenance.

The Blazer was heavier than the truck (more metal), so that was a
disadvantage for being able to carry more people.

A friend gave me the good idea to go to an auto dismantler rather than
buying a donor with a weak/dead engine. It was a very sound idea, as I
got exactly what I wanted for much less than a used vehicle.

Then and now, I still have no need for a 4x4. For me, a 4x4 drive train
wastes too much range, when a 2wd fits my driving needs fine.

I had them make (out of 5 vehicles) an ice-less 1985 2wd 2 door Blazer,
4 speed manual transmission, and manual steering (& leave out the
other junk that would have had to be removed). Later, I found I had
too high a differential gear-ratio and had that changed out.

Today, I would have chosen a 2wd light long bed truck, 5 speed manual
transmission, power steering, and I would have asked for the second to
the lowest differential gear-ratio because no matter what I drive (EV or
not) my normal cruising speed is 55 mph (yea, that is me you are
flipping the bird to in the far right lane).

So you need to decide how many passengers you need to haul around
most of the time, and all your other EV driving needs before purchasing
the donor.

I hope the above helps.


{brucedp.150m.com}



-
On Sun, Jul 8, 2012, at 03:32 PM, Stand Culp wrote:
> What are the Pros and Cons of using a 4x4  for a conversion?   and
> ditto on the  S-10 Blazer vs  S-10 pickup?   Ideally what I'd like to
> find is an extended cab or a crew cab even better  -  but I suspect
> that those might work, they would be as good as something with less
> cab and more bed  for  battery placement etc.
> I'm finding some interesting S-10s  (fairly recent years, 1995- 2003
> or so)  that I'm thinking of acquiring as a replacement donor to the
> '86 I bought and abused and is not longer appropriate for the task.
> Among the prospective donors are some  nice looking 4x4s  which I'm
> thinking are less that perfect for what I'm planning.  I thought
> mehbeh a 4x4 would lend itself to a 4 motor (motor / wheel) strategy,
> but on thinking this thru further,  probably a two motor set up (one
> motor for front wheels and one for rear wheels, might be more
> realistic.) ...
-

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - Faster than the air-speed velocity of an
                          unladen european swallow

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Re: Donor truck questions

SLPinfo.org
Bruce offers good advice.  Think about what you really need.  Passengers vs
no passengers?   Cargo bed flexibility vs covered carrying capacity?
Regular roads vs. off-road?

Like Bruce I'm not sure about the 4 X 4 issue other than it seems too
complicated for my taste.  I've never owned one and I have no aspirations
for off road use.  The extra battery weight from lead helps a lot with
traction here in Idaho in winter.  If you're going with lithium that
advantage will be lost.

I do drive an S-10 conversion and it is a decent platform. Like most trucks
out there it has the aerodynamics of a brick and with lead it has the
acceleration of a garbage truck but it gets the job done. I doubt the
Blazer offers any advantage in either of those - in fact Bruce makes a good
point about the extra weight of the Blazer that I had not considered.

I chose the truck over the Blazer because I wanted the cargo flexibility
(i.e., being able to carry big things like a couch or building supplies
from the home center). Being able to bury the batteries under the bed
allows you to have full bed capacity - I may yet do that.  For now I have
installed a "bed extender".

The one thing I would do differently is (if you choose the truck) get an
extended cab version.  Having that extra space behind the seat would be
really handy.  It's not a big deal for me though, as I drive solo most of
the time.

btw - if you go with an S-10 be careful about the motor mounts.  Talk to
the guys at CAN-EV about "torque straps".

- Peter Flipsen Jr
http://www.evalbum.com/3739





On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 10:22 PM, Bruce EVangel Parmenter <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Back in 1990 when I began my EV conversion fact finding quest, it was a
> different time and the components available were of an older generation,
> but if I were to get a used or have built for me another conversion, I
> would have the same close the same EV driving needs. These needs vary
> with each driver and you need to know what yours will be for the next 5
> to 10 years of driving your EV conversion. Then your baby will suit your
> driving needs most of the time.
>
> In my case, I physically needed a larger donor vehicle because of the
> body God gave me (my 17EEEE shoe can cover all three pedals on a VW
> Rabbit). So, I was looking at either a light truck or Blazer/Bronco type
> of donor (a smallish big vehicle). If I got a sedan, I would need to
> beef up the suspension and brakes, whereas a truck or Blazer built on a
> truck chassis would already have that.
>
> Back then, a standard S-10 cab was a tight fit for my long lanky legs
> (imagine my knees up in the air on either side of my face while
> driving). There were few king cabs that did not offer much more room.
> But a Blazer did. Also, my EV driving needs was to promote EVs, so I
> needed the additional passenger space to give rides at EVents/shows.
>
> Today, light trucks have much more leg room, and I do not have that same
> need to promote EVs as in the 1990's, because 2010+ Production EVs can
> easily be bought (all us EVangels did so good a job, I am not needed to
> run around banging the EV-gong anymore. Good job everyone!).
>
> So, today I might choose a truck instead of a Blazer. Along with enough
> leg room, I would want to have a long-bed, so I could put a shell on it.
> That would allow me to not only carry and secure items in the back, but
> if on a long trip, & only had slow level-1 charging was available, I
> could crawl in the back and take a nap to kill some time. That last bit
> would have been nice on the many long trips I took in my S-10 Blazer
> conversion (trying to sleep in the seat was not fun).
>
> The truck allows you to place your racks below the bed, and put a
> tilt-bed mechanism on it so you will have easy access for pack
> maintenance.
>
> The Blazer was heavier than the truck (more metal), so that was a
> disadvantage for being able to carry more people.
>
> A friend gave me the good idea to go to an auto dismantler rather than
> buying a donor with a weak/dead engine. It was a very sound idea, as I
> got exactly what I wanted for much less than a used vehicle.
>
> Then and now, I still have no need for a 4x4. For me, a 4x4 drive train
> wastes too much range, when a 2wd fits my driving needs fine.
>
> I had them make (out of 5 vehicles) an ice-less 1985 2wd 2 door Blazer,
> 4 speed manual transmission, and manual steering (& of the other junk
> that would have had to be removed). Later, I found I had too high a
> differential gear-ratio and had that changed out.
>
> Today, I would have chosen a 2wd light truck leg bed, 5 speed manual
> transmission, power steering, and I would have asked for the second to
> the lowest differential gear-ratio because no matter what I drive (EV or
> not) my normal cruising speed is 55 mph (yea that is me you are flipping
> the bird to in the far right lane).
>
> So you need to decide how many passengers you need to haul around most
> of the time, and all your other EV driving needs before deciding.
> I hope the above helps.
>
>
> {brucedp.150m.com}
>
>
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|
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Re: Donor truck questions

electruck
Bruce and slpinfoprof:

Thanks to both of you on your input  :)
Before I get started on that though,  I'd like to underscore the info
in the discussion list help page:  I couldn't see my post, and after
waiting awhile I checked out the help page and logged into the site
and went to the Archive, and then could see it  !!   So, anyone having
that problem, the Archive is yer solution.

Now, on the S-10 thingz:   I've pretty much decided on a fairly recent
year S-10 pickup, extended cab  2 wheel drive.
The factors I take into consideration to reach that conclusion are:  I
want the batteries under the bed (and the idea of the tilt bed for
easy service access to the battery packs is awesome kewel, and clever
as sliced bread.  I can put a guitar in the extra room inside the cab
and even a small amplifier. The bed will be handy for those trips to
the small box supply stores, plumbing electrical outfit.  I try to
avoid the big box places like home depot and lowes, as everything in
there is made in China  :(   whereas Grover's stocks a lot of legacy
things made in the good old USA!  (excuse the soapbox on buying
domestic: jobs here etc., as important to me as going green and
boycotting the oil companies   lol
Another thing I thought of in regards to the 4x4 issue, aside from the
complexity the added weight of those extra linkages, gears, etc., as
well as the loss of efficiency with all those parts between the motor
and the wheels.  I'm not big on offroad fun these days anyway.
The one thing that Bruce mentioned that I am really liking and will
have to do some research on, is NOT buying a running used donor, but
seeing what I can find at the salvage places on something newer, but
without the pieces I'd need to remove anyway, and then a way to get
rid of that ICE metal.

On the batteries, I decided to go AGMs in my new Elec-Trak mower, as
the die hard deep cycles are gettin pretty anemic. But, though I was
thinking of going similarly in the S-10 conversion - we seldom get
snow in town here, and the added traction weight with Lead Acid, isn't
really an advantage for my situation, and more range is something I'd
like to maximize, so, I need to do some heavy research in lighter
battery tech like Lith-Ion  or similar battery packs.
Even though it will add a bit more weight, I really want the luxury
things like power windows/locks.   On passengers,  one is enuf  !!
I really am serious about gettin a low profile canopy (same height as
the cab) or a tonneau cover.
I may go so far as to take the bed off and make something lighter, to
also try and increase that range factor as much as possible.  But,
that's for the fine-tuning dept., after I have everything else running
and charging smoothly....
The sound system in one of my cars now is a radio/CD player,  which
has to suck a lotta juice, and thinkin MP3 would be a better way to
go.  Good speakers etc. are also a weight issue though. So, I'm gonna
need to do some research in that area too.  Some of this seems kinda
nitpicking and superficial in a sense, but it's part of the big
picture.  Luxury, but practicality too.  Range is a big deal, but
fortunately, across the river (in Portland, Ore)  they're putting in
more recharging stations for electric vehicles, and there's quite a
few of them already.

Oh, another option, but with the same prefered parameters:  finding
someone fairly local that has this already converted that would give
it to me, lol. Well, I could buy it too I guess.  Or if I can find
someone that likes tinkerin with this stuff, have them make it for
me....  I'd rather be playing rock n roll   :p   and last but not
least, I'll need a new bumper sticker:   my other vehicle is an
electric guitar  :D

Thanks again for the help and guidance,  and  "may the 4th be with you"

S-10cerely,  Stand
________________________________________________________________________

On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 8:16 AM, SLPinfo.org <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Bruce offers good advice.  Think about what you really need.  Passengers vs
> no passengers?   Cargo bed flexibility vs covered carrying capacity?
> Regular roads vs. off-road?
>

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
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| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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Re: Donor truck questions

SLPinfo.org
A couple of additional comments

Unless you have a sizeable budget lead may be your only choice.  And unless
you're planning on a high. Voltage system such as.above.300 volts I would
avoid.AGMs.  Floodeds need more.maintenance but are better for this
application.

Wayne Anderson in Twin Falls, ID tried.the "lighten the box" thing on an
S10 and didn't think.it.was.worth the effort.  Check.out his evalbum page.

Peter Flipsen
On Jul 9, 2012 10:18 AM, "Stand Culp" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Bruce and slpinfoprof:
>
> Thanks to both of you on your input  :)
> Before I get started on that though,  I'd like to underscore the info
> in the discussion list help page:  I couldn't see my post, and after
> waiting awhile I checked out the help page and logged into the site
> and went to the Archive, and then could see it  !!   So, anyone having
> that problem, the Archive is yer solution.
>
> Now, on the S-10 thingz:   I've pretty much decided on a fairly recent
> year S-10 pickup, extended cab  2 wheel drive.
> The factors I take into consideration to reach that conclusion are:  I
> want the batteries under the bed (and the idea of the tilt bed for
> easy service access to the battery packs is awesome kewel, and clever
> as sliced bread.  I can put a guitar in the extra room inside the cab
> and even a small amplifier. The bed will be handy for those trips to
> the small box supply stores, plumbing electrical outfit.  I try to
> avoid the big box places like home depot and lowes, as everything in
> there is made in China  :(   whereas Grover's stocks a lot of legacy
> things made in the good old USA!  (excuse the soapbox on buying
> domestic: jobs here etc., as important to me as going green and
> boycotting the oil companies   lol
> Another thing I thought of in regards to the 4x4 issue, aside from the
> complexity the added weight of those extra linkages, gears, etc., as
> well as the loss of efficiency with all those parts between the motor
> and the wheels.  I'm not big on offroad fun these days anyway.
> The one thing that Bruce mentioned that I am really liking and will
> have to do some research on, is NOT buying a running used donor, but
> seeing what I can find at the salvage places on something newer, but
> without the pieces I'd need to remove anyway, and then a way to get
> rid of that ICE metal.
>
> On the batteries, I decided to go AGMs in my new Elec-Trak mower, as
> the die hard deep cycles are gettin pretty anemic. But, though I was
> thinking of going similarly in the S-10 conversion - we seldom get
> snow in town here, and the added traction weight with Lead Acid, isn't
> really an advantage for my situation, and more range is something I'd
> like to maximize, so, I need to do some heavy research in lighter
> battery tech like Lith-Ion  or similar battery packs.
> Even though it will add a bit more weight, I really want the luxury
> things like power windows/locks.   On passengers,  one is enuf  !!
> I really am serious about gettin a low profile canopy (same height as
> the cab) or a tonneau cover.
> I may go so far as to take the bed off and make something lighter, to
> also try and increase that range factor as much as possible.  But,
> that's for the fine-tuning dept., after I have everything else running
> and charging smoothly....
> The sound system in one of my cars now is a radio/CD player,  which
> has to suck a lotta juice, and thinkin MP3 would be a better way to
> go.  Good speakers etc. are also a weight issue though. So, I'm gonna
> need to do some research in that area too.  Some of this seems kinda
> nitpicking and superficial in a sense, but it's part of the big
> picture.  Luxury, but practicality too.  Range is a big deal, but
> fortunately, across the river (in Portland, Ore)  they're putting in
> more recharging stations for electric vehicles, and there's quite a
> few of them already.
>
> Oh, another option, but with the same prefered parameters:  finding
> someone fairly local that has this already converted that would give
> it to me, lol. Well, I could buy it too I guess.  Or if I can find
> someone that likes tinkerin with this stuff, have them make it for
> me....  I'd rather be playing rock n roll   :p   and last but not
> least, I'll need a new bumper sticker:   my other vehicle is an
> electric guitar  :D
>
> Thanks again for the help and guidance,  and  "may the 4th be with you"
>
> S-10cerely,  Stand
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 8:16 AM, SLPinfo.org <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Bruce offers good advice.  Think about what you really need.  Passengers
> vs
> > no passengers?   Cargo bed flexibility vs covered carrying capacity?
> > Regular roads vs. off-road?
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
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Re: Donor truck questions

electruck
Peter,
Actually,  I was thinking along the lines of the  non  Lead Acid
batteries for the conversion...   there's been quite a bit of chatter
on here about the 123s  whatchacallemz. I haven't even skimmed the
surface of that  area yet.... and no next to nuthin, but depending,
that seemed a good alternative to the  flooded/AGM  quandry.
valid points, all.   wait  for   it   -
but,  when I was doing some reading on pros and cons of  floodeds/AGMs
 one factoid that I had no inkling of:   floodeds leak energy
overnite, where AGMs maintain nearly full level   also maintain charge
level better in cold temps (and tho it doesn't snow much in town, it
does get down there in the mercury dept.   This would come under
maintenance as you said....
slightly off topicness:  for the replacements of the three 12V  deep
cycles in the E-8 mower, the AGMs are less sensitive to being jolted
shaken and stirred.  Until I get the yard rototilled and evened out
more, it's a bumpy damned ride on that lil tractor.  It only needs 3
batts so the expense is worth it for that application, as I'm gettin
very low AHs outta those old Die Hards  (saddest thing is,  they were
damned near bone dry when I picked the machine up from someone that's
expert in these things, and should be ashamed he never checked the
water level ARGGGG)
I still have some research to do on prices for Deep Cycles,  so the
cautions in that regard are very timely, and will be taken into
account.  I don't really WANT to double the budget just on batteries.
Yeah on the replacing the bed with something homemade to save some
weight, seems like a hella lotta work for  probably little actual
effect.
thanks again for the input

Stand
__________________________________________________________________________

On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 10:41 AM, SLPinfo.org <[hidden email]> wrote:

> A couple of additional comments
>
> Unless you have a sizeable budget lead may be your only choice.  And unless
> you're planning on a high. Voltage system such as.above.300 volts I would
> avoid.AGMs.  Floodeds need more.maintenance but are better for this
> application.
>
> Wayne Anderson in Twin Falls, ID tried.the "lighten the box" thing on an
> S10 and didn't think.it.was.worth the effort.  Check.out his evalbum page.
>
> Peter Flipsen
> On Jul 9, 2012 10:18 AM, "Stand Culp" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Bruce and slpinfoprof:
>>
>> Thanks to both of you on your input  :)
>> Before I get started on that though,  I'd like to underscore the info
>> in the discussion list help page:  I couldn't see my post, and after
>> waiting awhile I checked out the help page and logged into the site
>> and went to the Archive, and then could see it  !!   So, anyone having
>> that problem, the Archive is yer solution.
>>
>> Now, on the S-10 thingz:   I've pretty much decided on a fairly recent
>> year S-10 pickup, extended cab  2 wheel drive.
>> The factors I take into consideration to reach that conclusion are:  I
>> want the batteries under the bed (and the idea of the tilt bed for
>> easy service access to the battery packs is awesome kewel, and clever
>> as sliced bread.  I can put a guitar in the extra room inside the cab
>> and even a small amplifier. The bed will be handy for those trips to
>> the small box supply stores, plumbing electrical outfit.  I try to
>> avoid the big box places like home depot and lowes, as everything in
>> there is made in China  :(   whereas Grover's stocks a lot of legacy
>> things made in the good old USA!  (excuse the soapbox on buying
>> domestic: jobs here etc., as important to me as going green and
>> boycotting the oil companies   lol
>> Another thing I thought of in regards to the 4x4 issue, aside from the
>> complexity the added weight of those extra linkages, gears, etc., as
>> well as the loss of efficiency with all those parts between the motor
>> and the wheels.  I'm not big on offroad fun these days anyway.
>> The one thing that Bruce mentioned that I am really liking and will
>> have to do some research on, is NOT buying a running used donor, but
>> seeing what I can find at the salvage places on something newer, but
>> without the pieces I'd need to remove anyway, and then a way to get
>> rid of that ICE metal.
>>
>> On the batteries, I decided to go AGMs in my new Elec-Trak mower, as
>> the die hard deep cycles are gettin pretty anemic. But, though I was
>> thinking of going similarly in the S-10 conversion - we seldom get
>> snow in town here, and the added traction weight with Lead Acid, isn't
>> really an advantage for my situation, and more range is something I'd
>> like to maximize, so, I need to do some heavy research in lighter
>> battery tech like Lith-Ion  or similar battery packs.
>> Even though it will add a bit more weight, I really want the luxury
>> things like power windows/locks.   On passengers,  one is enuf  !!
>> I really am serious about gettin a low profile canopy (same height as
>> the cab) or a tonneau cover.
>> I may go so far as to take the bed off and make something lighter, to
>> also try and increase that range factor as much as possible.  But,
>> that's for the fine-tuning dept., after I have everything else running
>> and charging smoothly....
>> The sound system in one of my cars now is a radio/CD player,  which
>> has to suck a lotta juice, and thinkin MP3 would be a better way to
>> go.  Good speakers etc. are also a weight issue though. So, I'm gonna
>> need to do some research in that area too.  Some of this seems kinda
>> nitpicking and superficial in a sense, but it's part of the big
>> picture.  Luxury, but practicality too.  Range is a big deal, but
>> fortunately, across the river (in Portland, Ore)  they're putting in
>> more recharging stations for electric vehicles, and there's quite a
>> few of them already.
>>
>> Oh, another option, but with the same prefered parameters:  finding
>> someone fairly local that has this already converted that would give
>> it to me, lol. Well, I could buy it too I guess.  Or if I can find
>> someone that likes tinkerin with this stuff, have them make it for
>> me....  I'd rather be playing rock n roll   :p   and last but not
>> least, I'll need a new bumper sticker:   my other vehicle is an
>> electric guitar  :D
>>
>> Thanks again for the help and guidance,  and  "may the 4th be with you"
>>
>> S-10cerely,  Stand
>> ________________________________________________________________________
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 8:16 AM, SLPinfo.org <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > Bruce offers good advice.  Think about what you really need.  Passengers
>> vs
>> > no passengers?   Cargo bed flexibility vs covered carrying capacity?
>> > Regular roads vs. off-road?
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
>> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
>> |
>> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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Re: Donor truck questions

EVDL Administrator
On 9 Jul 2012 at 12:55, Stand Culp wrote:

> floodeds leak energy overnite, where AGMs maintain nearly full level  

True that AGMs and most gel batteries have lower self discharge, but the
difference only shows up over weeks or months, not overnight.

> also maintain charge level better in cold temps ...

Well, maybe, because of AGMs' lower internal resistance.  But worth it?  
Hmm.  And don't forget that once you fit those more finicky and expensive
batteries, you'll need a more sophisticated charger than the brain-dead
buzzbox that came with your ET if you don't want them dying an early death.  
That's yet more $$$$$, and for what?

Capacity drops pretty far with chilly lead regardless of whether they're
flooded, AGM, or gel.  However, you can deal with that by insulating and/or
heating your batteries.  This doesn't have to be as big a deal as it's made
out to be, as long as you've allowed for enough extra onboard capacity that
the EV can still accomplish its daily mission on a cold winter day.

A few years ago, I wouldn't have suggested lithium for any hobbyist EVer and
certainly not for a beginner.  Lead is more forgiving all the way round.  

Today I think that's changing fast.  I'm not an expert in this subject - I'm
just starting to tinker with lithium batteries - but that by itself kind of
tells you that lithium is starting to move into the EV hobbyist mainstream
now.  I'm a pretty cautious sort. ;-)  

You absolutely can't cheap out on lithium like you can with lead.  They
really, really NEED a proper charger and a reliable BMS. You can probably
get away with a variac and a bridge rectifier for lead, but try that with
lithium and you have a significant risk of ending up with a car full of
expensive paperweights - or even a car full of ashes.

Personally, for lithium, I'd be most comfortable with a battery / charger /
BMS package bought from an integrator who knows what he's doing.   But
that's me.

> for the replacements of the three 12V  deep cycles in the E-8 mower,
> the AGMs are less sensitive to being jolted shaken and stirred.  

Again, not that big a deal, IMO.  Even with vibration, this is a relatively
low stress application for flooded lead.  Most ETs get 5-10 years of service
from a set of batteries.  IMO, in this application, low cost batteries are
fine.


> Yeah on the replacing the bed with something homemade to save some
> weight, seems like a hella lotta work for probably little actual
> effect.

Same with the CD player you mentioned before.  The audio system is a tiny
percentage of the vehicle's energy use.  If range is your concern, that
should be the last thing you worry about.

The energy use to move the vehicle absolutely dwarfs everything else.  
Heating and aircon are about the only other energy users of significance
(they might be a 10-30% range reduction, depending on where you live and how
you use them).  

Stuff that a lot of folks think of as energy savers, such as changing out
lights for LEDs and CD players for mp3s, normally makes no measurable  
difference in your range.  You may have good reasons for doing those things -
 LEDs look kind of cool and tunes are obviously important to you - but
increasing range isn't one of them.

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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Re: Donor truck questions

SLPinfo.org
In reply to this post by electruck
AGMs will be more expensive than flooded and will be more difficult to find
in 8v or 6v (don't even consider using 12v of either kind).

AGMs won't last nearly as long cycle-wise as floodeds.

Lithium will be 3-4 times as expensive as lead though they'll last 4-5
times as long.  They have very little Peukert effect so you can make.much
better use of.the.stored.energy.  If you can handle the up front cost (I
couldn't) you get much better cost per mile than lead.

Peter
On Jul 9, 2012 1:56 PM, "Stand Culp" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Peter,
> Actually,  I was thinking along the lines of the  non  Lead Acid
> batteries for the conversion...   there's been quite a bit of chatter
> on here about the 123s  whatchacallemz. I haven't even skimmed the
> surface of that  area yet.... and no next to nuthin, but depending,
> that seemed a good alternative to the  flooded/AGM  quandry.
> valid points, all.   wait  for   it   -
> but,  when I was doing some reading on pros and cons of  floodeds/AGMs
>  one factoid that I had no inkling of:   floodeds leak energy
> overnite, where AGMs maintain nearly full level   also maintain charge
> level better in cold temps (and tho it doesn't snow much in town, it
> does get down there in the mercury dept.   This would come under
> maintenance as you said....
> slightly off topicness:  for the replacements of the three 12V  deep
> cycles in the E-8 mower, the AGMs are less sensitive to being jolted
> shaken and stirred.  Until I get the yard rototilled and evened out
> more, it's a bumpy damned ride on that lil tractor.  It only needs 3
> batts so the expense is worth it for that application, as I'm gettin
> very low AHs outta those old Die Hards  (saddest thing is,  they were
> damned near bone dry when I picked the machine up from someone that's
> expert in these things, and should be ashamed he never checked the
> water level ARGGGG)
> I still have some research to do on prices for Deep Cycles,  so the
> cautions in that regard are very timely, and will be taken into
> account.  I don't really WANT to double the budget just on batteries.
> Yeah on the replacing the bed with something homemade to save some
> weight, seems like a hella lotta work for  probably little actual
> effect.
> thanks again for the input
>
> Stand
> __________________________________________________________________________
>
> On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 10:41 AM, SLPinfo.org <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > A couple of additional comments
> >
> > Unless you have a sizeable budget lead may be your only choice.  And
> unless
> > you're planning on a high. Voltage system such as.above.300 volts I would
> > avoid.AGMs.  Floodeds need more.maintenance but are better for this
> > application.
> >
> > Wayne Anderson in Twin Falls, ID tried.the "lighten the box" thing on an
> > S10 and didn't think.it.was.worth the effort.  Check.out his evalbum
> page.
> >
> > Peter Flipsen
> > On Jul 9, 2012 10:18 AM, "Stand Culp" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> Bruce and slpinfoprof:
> >>
> >> Thanks to both of you on your input  :)
> >> Before I get started on that though,  I'd like to underscore the info
> >> in the discussion list help page:  I couldn't see my post, and after
> >> waiting awhile I checked out the help page and logged into the site
> >> and went to the Archive, and then could see it  !!   So, anyone having
> >> that problem, the Archive is yer solution.
> >>
> >> Now, on the S-10 thingz:   I've pretty much decided on a fairly recent
> >> year S-10 pickup, extended cab  2 wheel drive.
> >> The factors I take into consideration to reach that conclusion are:  I
> >> want the batteries under the bed (and the idea of the tilt bed for
> >> easy service access to the battery packs is awesome kewel, and clever
> >> as sliced bread.  I can put a guitar in the extra room inside the cab
> >> and even a small amplifier. The bed will be handy for those trips to
> >> the small box supply stores, plumbing electrical outfit.  I try to
> >> avoid the big box places like home depot and lowes, as everything in
> >> there is made in China  :(   whereas Grover's stocks a lot of legacy
> >> things made in the good old USA!  (excuse the soapbox on buying
> >> domestic: jobs here etc., as important to me as going green and
> >> boycotting the oil companies   lol
> >> Another thing I thought of in regards to the 4x4 issue, aside from the
> >> complexity the added weight of those extra linkages, gears, etc., as
> >> well as the loss of efficiency with all those parts between the motor
> >> and the wheels.  I'm not big on offroad fun these days anyway.
> >> The one thing that Bruce mentioned that I am really liking and will
> >> have to do some research on, is NOT buying a running used donor, but
> >> seeing what I can find at the salvage places on something newer, but
> >> without the pieces I'd need to remove anyway, and then a way to get
> >> rid of that ICE metal.
> >>
> >> On the batteries, I decided to go AGMs in my new Elec-Trak mower, as
> >> the die hard deep cycles are gettin pretty anemic. But, though I was
> >> thinking of going similarly in the S-10 conversion - we seldom get
> >> snow in town here, and the added traction weight with Lead Acid, isn't
> >> really an advantage for my situation, and more range is something I'd
> >> like to maximize, so, I need to do some heavy research in lighter
> >> battery tech like Lith-Ion  or similar battery packs.
> >> Even though it will add a bit more weight, I really want the luxury
> >> things like power windows/locks.   On passengers,  one is enuf  !!
> >> I really am serious about gettin a low profile canopy (same height as
> >> the cab) or a tonneau cover.
> >> I may go so far as to take the bed off and make something lighter, to
> >> also try and increase that range factor as much as possible.  But,
> >> that's for the fine-tuning dept., after I have everything else running
> >> and charging smoothly....
> >> The sound system in one of my cars now is a radio/CD player,  which
> >> has to suck a lotta juice, and thinkin MP3 would be a better way to
> >> go.  Good speakers etc. are also a weight issue though. So, I'm gonna
> >> need to do some research in that area too.  Some of this seems kinda
> >> nitpicking and superficial in a sense, but it's part of the big
> >> picture.  Luxury, but practicality too.  Range is a big deal, but
> >> fortunately, across the river (in Portland, Ore)  they're putting in
> >> more recharging stations for electric vehicles, and there's quite a
> >> few of them already.
> >>
> >> Oh, another option, but with the same prefered parameters:  finding
> >> someone fairly local that has this already converted that would give
> >> it to me, lol. Well, I could buy it too I guess.  Or if I can find
> >> someone that likes tinkerin with this stuff, have them make it for
> >> me....  I'd rather be playing rock n roll   :p   and last but not
> >> least, I'll need a new bumper sticker:   my other vehicle is an
> >> electric guitar  :D
> >>
> >> Thanks again for the help and guidance,  and  "may the 4th be with you"
> >>
> >> S-10cerely,  Stand
> >> ________________________________________________________________________
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 8:16 AM, SLPinfo.org <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >> > Bruce offers good advice.  Think about what you really need.
>  Passengers
> >> vs
> >> > no passengers?   Cargo bed flexibility vs covered carrying capacity?
> >> > Regular roads vs. off-road?
> >> >
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> >> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> >> |
> >> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> >> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> >> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
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> > | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
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Re: Donor truck questions

Mike Nickerson
In reply to this post by electruck
My messages don't seem to be appearing.  Trying again.

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Nickerson [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 11:36 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: RE: [EVDL] Donor truck questions

A couple rules of thumb about choosing donor vehicles.  

1.   If looking at lithium cells, 8-9 kWh of battery capacity is about equal
to one gallon of gasoline.  So, you would get about as much range (without
margin) with 8 kWh of lithium cells as you would get miles per gallon on the
original vehicle.

2.  A small vehicle that would get about 30 mpg will probably use about
225-250 Wh/mile.  Thus, it would get about 4 miles per kWh.  This rule fits
for all battery types.  However, lead-acid batteries might need more
capacity than the lithium rule of thumb due to the higher Peukert constant.
A larger truck that would get 15 mpg would probably need 500 Wh/mile.

What uses are these?

First, it helps judge the comparative battery costs and range of various
donor vehicles.  If one vehicle got 20 mpg and one got 25 mpg, the
performance as an EV will probably have a similar difference.

Second, once the donor is chosen, you can figure how much range a given pack
will provide, or help calculate how big the pack must be to support a given
range.  Then, you can see if your donor vehicle has room for that many cells
and can carry the weight.


I wouldn't discount the possibility of buying a completed or partial S-10
conversion.  I bought a Honda del Sol with lithium cells for less than the
cost of the parts.  If doing that, it does pay to get a setup aligned as
closely as feasible to your goals.  That reduces your future investment.  It
also helps if the original builder's standards were as high, or higher than
yours.  That helps reduce rework.  Neither suggestion is hard and fast for
the right price, though.  You could simply view it as a partially assembled
kit.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of SLPinfo.org
> Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 4:44 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Donor truck questions
>
> AGMs will be more expensive than flooded and will be more difficult to
> find in 8v or 6v (don't even consider using 12v of either kind).
>
> AGMs won't last nearly as long cycle-wise as floodeds.
>
> Lithium will be 3-4 times as expensive as lead though they'll last 4-5
> times as long.  They have very little Peukert effect so you can
> make.much better use of.the.stored.energy.  If you can handle the up
> front cost (I
> couldn't) you get much better cost per mile than lead.
>
> Peter
> On Jul 9, 2012 1:56 PM, "Stand Culp" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Peter,
> > Actually,  I was thinking along the lines of the  non  Lead Acid
> > batteries for the conversion...   there's been quite a bit of chatter
> > on here about the 123s  whatchacallemz. I haven't even skimmed the
> > surface of that  area yet.... and no next to nuthin, but depending,
> > that seemed a good alternative to the  flooded/AGM  quandry.
> > valid points, all.   wait  for   it   -
> > but,  when I was doing some reading on pros and cons of  floodeds/AGMs
> >  one factoid that I had no inkling of:   floodeds leak energy
> > overnite, where AGMs maintain nearly full level   also maintain charge
> > level better in cold temps (and tho it doesn't snow much in town, it
> > does get down there in the mercury dept.   This would come under
> > maintenance as you said....
> > slightly off topicness:  for the replacements of the three 12V  deep
> > cycles in the E-8 mower, the AGMs are less sensitive to being jolted
> > shaken and stirred.  Until I get the yard rototilled and evened out
> > more, it's a bumpy damned ride on that lil tractor.  It only needs 3
> > batts so the expense is worth it for that application, as I'm gettin
> > very low AHs outta those old Die Hards  (saddest thing is,  they
> > were damned near bone dry when I picked the machine up from someone
> > that's expert in these things, and should be ashamed he never
> > checked the water level ARGGGG) I still have some research to do on
> > prices for Deep Cycles,  so the cautions in that regard are very
> > timely, and will be taken into account.  I don't really WANT to
> > double the budget just on batteries.
> > Yeah on the replacing the bed with something homemade to save some
> > weight, seems like a hella lotta work for  probably little actual
> > effect.
> > thanks again for the input
> >
> > Stand
> >
> __________________________________________________________
> ____________
> > ____
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 10:41 AM, SLPinfo.org <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > A couple of additional comments
> > >
> > > Unless you have a sizeable budget lead may be your only choice.  
> > > And
> > unless
> > > you're planning on a high. Voltage system such as.above.300 volts
> > > I would avoid.AGMs.  Floodeds need more.maintenance but are better
> > > for this application.
> > >
> > > Wayne Anderson in Twin Falls, ID tried.the "lighten the box" thing
> > > on an
> > > S10 and didn't think.it.was.worth the effort.  Check.out his
> > > evalbum
> > page.
> > >
> > > Peter Flipsen
> > > On Jul 9, 2012 10:18 AM, "Stand Culp" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Bruce and slpinfoprof:
> > >>
> > >> Thanks to both of you on your input  :) Before I get started on
> > >> that though,  I'd like to underscore the info in the discussion
> > >> list help page:  I couldn't see my post, and after waiting awhile
> > >> I checked out the help page and logged into the site
> > >> and went to the Archive, and then could see it  !!   So, anyone
having
> > >> that problem, the Archive is yer solution.
> > >>
> > >> Now, on the S-10 thingz:   I've pretty much decided on a fairly
recent

> > >> year S-10 pickup, extended cab  2 wheel drive.
> > >> The factors I take into consideration to reach that conclusion are:
> > >> I want the batteries under the bed (and the idea of the tilt bed
> > >> for easy service access to the battery packs is awesome kewel,
> > >> and clever as sliced bread.  I can put a guitar in the extra room
> > >> inside the cab and even a small amplifier. The bed will be handy
> > >> for those trips to the small box supply stores, plumbing
> > >> electrical outfit.  I try to avoid the big box places like home
> > >> depot and lowes, as
> everything in
> > >> there is made in China  :(   whereas Grover's stocks a lot of legacy
> > >> things made in the good old USA!  (excuse the soapbox on buying
> > >> domestic: jobs here etc., as important to me as going green and
> > >> boycotting the oil companies   lol
> > >> Another thing I thought of in regards to the 4x4 issue, aside
> > >> from the complexity the added weight of those extra linkages,
> > >> gears, etc., as well as the loss of efficiency with all those
> > >> parts between the motor and the wheels.  I'm not big on offroad
> > >> fun these
> days anyway.
> > >> The one thing that Bruce mentioned that I am really liking and
> > >> will have to do some research on, is NOT buying a running used
> > >> donor, but seeing what I can find at the salvage places on
> > >> something newer, but without the pieces I'd need to remove
> > >> anyway, and then a way to get rid of that ICE metal.
> > >>
> > >> On the batteries, I decided to go AGMs in my new Elec-Trak mower,
> > >> as the die hard deep cycles are gettin pretty anemic. But, though
> > >> I was thinking of going similarly in the S-10 conversion - we
> > >> seldom get snow in town here, and the added traction weight with
> > >> Lead Acid, isn't really an advantage for my situation, and more
> > >> range is something I'd like to maximize, so, I need to do some
> > >> heavy research in lighter battery tech like Lith-Ion  or similar
battery packs.
> > >> Even though it will add a bit more weight, I really want the luxury
> > >> things like power windows/locks.   On passengers,  one is enuf  !!
> > >> I really am serious about gettin a low profile canopy (same
> > >> height as the cab) or a tonneau cover.
> > >> I may go so far as to take the bed off and make something
> > >> lighter, to also try and increase that range factor as much as
possible.

> > >> But, that's for the fine-tuning dept., after I have everything
> > >> else running and charging smoothly....
> > >> The sound system in one of my cars now is a radio/CD player,  
> > >> which has to suck a lotta juice, and thinkin MP3 would be a
> > >> better way to go.  Good speakers etc. are also a weight issue
> > >> though. So, I'm gonna need to do some research in that area too.  
> > >> Some of this seems kinda nitpicking and superficial in a sense,
> > >> but it's part of the big picture.  Luxury, but practicality too.  
> > >> Range is a big deal, but fortunately, across the river (in
> > >> Portland, Ore)  they're putting in more recharging stations for
> > >> electric vehicles, and there's quite a few of them already.
> > >>
> > >> Oh, another option, but with the same prefered parameters:  
> > >> finding someone fairly local that has this already converted that
> > >> would give it to me, lol. Well, I could buy it too I guess.  Or
> > >> if I can find someone that likes tinkerin with this stuff, have them
make it for
> > >> me....  I'd rather be playing rock n roll   :p   and last but not
> > >> least, I'll need a new bumper sticker:   my other vehicle is an
> > >> electric guitar  :D
> > >>
> > >> Thanks again for the help and guidance,  and  "may the 4th be with
you"

> > >>
> > >> S-10cerely,  Stand
> > >>
> __________________________________________________________
> _________
> > >> _____
> > >>
> > >> On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 8:16 AM, SLPinfo.org
> > >> <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > >> > Bruce offers good advice.  Think about what you really need.
> >  Passengers
> > >> vs
> > >> > no passengers?   Cargo bed flexibility vs covered carrying
capacity?

> > >> > Regular roads vs. off-road?
> > >> >
> > >>
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Re: Donor truck questions

Martin WINLOW
In reply to this post by SLPinfo.org
Peter said "Lithium will be 3-4 times as expensive as lead..."

Sorry, but <really> this is complete twaddle...

A Trojan t-125 with a 20 hour rate capacity of 240Ah (one of the more common flooded PbA batteries in use on the EV scene) costs around US$170.  It has a <usable> capacity of around half its rated capacity, so about 120Ah at around 6.6V.

A 160Ah 3.2V Thundersky cell can be bought for much the same price (albeit with 33% more capacity of the T-125, but hey, let's be generous here).  So LiFePO4 is <at most> twice the cost of lead and you get half the pack weight, much improved vehicle performance (due to less weight and more conducive cell chemistry), potentially <ten times> the cycle life, no messing around with watering the cells, no 'acid clouds', no explosive gas venting... the list goes on.

So, whilst I can accept that if you just don't have the extra money to invest in Li then you are stuck with lead, it is simply WRONG to state they cost four times as much as lead and using Li makes for a EV that competes with an ICE in a way that a lead-based one simply cannot...

IMO!

MW


On 9 Jul 2012, at 23:43, SLPinfo.org wrote:

> AGMs will be more expensive than flooded and will be more difficult to find
> in 8v or 6v (don't even consider using 12v of either kind).
>
> AGMs won't last nearly as long cycle-wise as floodeds.
>
> Lithium will be 3-4 times as expensive as lead though they'll last 4-5
> times as long.  They have very little Peukert effect so you can make.much
> better use of.the.stored.energy.  If you can handle the up front cost (I
> couldn't) you get much better cost per mile than lead.
>
> Peter
> On Jul 9, 2012 1:56 PM, "Stand Culp" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Peter,
>> Actually,  I was thinking along the lines of the  non  Lead Acid
>> batteries for the conversion...   there's been quite a bit of chatter
>> on here about the 123s  whatchacallemz. I haven't even skimmed the
>> surface of that  area yet.... and no next to nuthin, but depending,
>> that seemed a good alternative to the  flooded/AGM  quandry.
>> valid points, all.   wait  for   it   -
>> but,  when I was doing some reading on pros and cons of  floodeds/AGMs
>> one factoid that I had no inkling of:   floodeds leak energy
>> overnite, where AGMs maintain nearly full level   also maintain charge
>> level better in cold temps (and tho it doesn't snow much in town, it
>> does get down there in the mercury dept.   This would come under
>> maintenance as you said....
>> slightly off topicness:  for the replacements of the three 12V  deep
>> cycles in the E-8 mower, the AGMs are less sensitive to being jolted
>> shaken and stirred.  Until I get the yard rototilled and evened out
>> more, it's a bumpy damned ride on that lil tractor.  It only needs 3
>> batts so the expense is worth it for that application, as I'm gettin
>> very low AHs outta those old Die Hards  (saddest thing is,  they were
>> damned near bone dry when I picked the machine up from someone that's
>> expert in these things, and should be ashamed he never checked the
>> water level ARGGGG)
>> I still have some research to do on prices for Deep Cycles,  so the
>> cautions in that regard are very timely, and will be taken into
>> account.  I don't really WANT to double the budget just on batteries.
>> Yeah on the replacing the bed with something homemade to save some
>> weight, seems like a hella lotta work for  probably little actual
>> effect.
>> thanks again for the input
>>
>> Stand
>> __________________________________________________________________________
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 10:41 AM, SLPinfo.org <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>> A couple of additional comments
>>>
>>> Unless you have a sizeable budget lead may be your only choice.  And
>> unless
>>> you're planning on a high. Voltage system such as.above.300 volts I would
>>> avoid.AGMs.  Floodeds need more.maintenance but are better for this
>>> application.
>>>
>>> Wayne Anderson in Twin Falls, ID tried.the "lighten the box" thing on an
>>> S10 and didn't think.it.was.worth the effort.  Check.out his evalbum
>> page.
>>>
>>> Peter Flipsen
>>> On Jul 9, 2012 10:18 AM, "Stand Culp" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bruce and slpinfoprof:
>>>>
>>>> Thanks to both of you on your input  :)
>>>> Before I get started on that though,  I'd like to underscore the info
>>>> in the discussion list help page:  I couldn't see my post, and after
>>>> waiting awhile I checked out the help page and logged into the site
>>>> and went to the Archive, and then could see it  !!   So, anyone having
>>>> that problem, the Archive is yer solution.
>>>>
>>>> Now, on the S-10 thingz:   I've pretty much decided on a fairly recent
>>>> year S-10 pickup, extended cab  2 wheel drive.
>>>> The factors I take into consideration to reach that conclusion are:  I
>>>> want the batteries under the bed (and the idea of the tilt bed for
>>>> easy service access to the battery packs is awesome kewel, and clever
>>>> as sliced bread.  I can put a guitar in the extra room inside the cab
>>>> and even a small amplifier. The bed will be handy for those trips to
>>>> the small box supply stores, plumbing electrical outfit.  I try to
>>>> avoid the big box places like home depot and lowes, as everything in
>>>> there is made in China  :(   whereas Grover's stocks a lot of legacy
>>>> things made in the good old USA!  (excuse the soapbox on buying
>>>> domestic: jobs here etc., as important to me as going green and
>>>> boycotting the oil companies   lol
>>>> Another thing I thought of in regards to the 4x4 issue, aside from the
>>>> complexity the added weight of those extra linkages, gears, etc., as
>>>> well as the loss of efficiency with all those parts between the motor
>>>> and the wheels.  I'm not big on offroad fun these days anyway.
>>>> The one thing that Bruce mentioned that I am really liking and will
>>>> have to do some research on, is NOT buying a running used donor, but
>>>> seeing what I can find at the salvage places on something newer, but
>>>> without the pieces I'd need to remove anyway, and then a way to get
>>>> rid of that ICE metal.
>>>>
>>>> On the batteries, I decided to go AGMs in my new Elec-Trak mower, as
>>>> the die hard deep cycles are gettin pretty anemic. But, though I was
>>>> thinking of going similarly in the S-10 conversion - we seldom get
>>>> snow in town here, and the added traction weight with Lead Acid, isn't
>>>> really an advantage for my situation, and more range is something I'd
>>>> like to maximize, so, I need to do some heavy research in lighter
>>>> battery tech like Lith-Ion  or similar battery packs.
>>>> Even though it will add a bit more weight, I really want the luxury
>>>> things like power windows/locks.   On passengers,  one is enuf  !!
>>>> I really am serious about gettin a low profile canopy (same height as
>>>> the cab) or a tonneau cover.
>>>> I may go so far as to take the bed off and make something lighter, to
>>>> also try and increase that range factor as much as possible.  But,
>>>> that's for the fine-tuning dept., after I have everything else running
>>>> and charging smoothly....
>>>> The sound system in one of my cars now is a radio/CD player,  which
>>>> has to suck a lotta juice, and thinkin MP3 would be a better way to
>>>> go.  Good speakers etc. are also a weight issue though. So, I'm gonna
>>>> need to do some research in that area too.  Some of this seems kinda
>>>> nitpicking and superficial in a sense, but it's part of the big
>>>> picture.  Luxury, but practicality too.  Range is a big deal, but
>>>> fortunately, across the river (in Portland, Ore)  they're putting in
>>>> more recharging stations for electric vehicles, and there's quite a
>>>> few of them already.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, another option, but with the same prefered parameters:  finding
>>>> someone fairly local that has this already converted that would give
>>>> it to me, lol. Well, I could buy it too I guess.  Or if I can find
>>>> someone that likes tinkerin with this stuff, have them make it for
>>>> me....  I'd rather be playing rock n roll   :p   and last but not
>>>> least, I'll need a new bumper sticker:   my other vehicle is an
>>>> electric guitar  :D
>>>>
>>>> Thanks again for the help and guidance,  and  "may the 4th be with you"
>>>>
>>>> S-10cerely,  Stand
>>>> ________________________________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 8:16 AM, SLPinfo.org <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>>> Bruce offers good advice.  Think about what you really need.
>> Passengers
>>>> vs
>>>>> no passengers?   Cargo bed flexibility vs covered carrying capacity?
>>>>> Regular roads vs. off-road?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
>>>> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
>>>> |
>>>> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
>>>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>>>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
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>>>>
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Re: Donor truck questions

SLPinfo.org
Martin

Using your numbers for my 120v pack I would need

20 x t-125 =$3400

40 x Li cells = $6800 + $2000-3500 for bms (not needed with lead).  And
there is the ongoing debate about which bms will do the job properly.

So it certainly can be 3 times the cost.  Even if it is only 2.5 times
that's a serious difference for many people including me.  And remember I
did say the cost per mile is better with lithium.

As for cycle life I have seen a lot of creep in the promises of lithium
lately.  Not sure anyone can yet say with practical confidence that you
would get more than five times the cycles compared to lead.  I always
prefer to under promise rather than over promise especially with a new
potential converter.

Peter Flipsen
On Jul 10, 2012 4:09 AM, "Martin WINLOW" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Peter said "Lithium will be 3-4 times as expensive as lead..."
>
> Sorry, but <really> this is complete twaddle...
>
> A Trojan t-125 with a 20 hour rate capacity of 240Ah (one of the more
> common flooded PbA batteries in use on the EV scene) costs around US$170.
>  It has a <usable> capacity of around half its rated capacity, so about
> 120Ah at around 6.6V.
>
> A 160Ah 3.2V Thundersky cell can be bought for much the same price (albeit
> with 33% more capacity of the T-125, but hey, let's be generous here).  So
> LiFePO4 is <at most> twice the cost of lead and you get half the pack
> weight, much improved vehicle performance (due to less weight and more
> conducive cell chemistry), potentially <ten times> the cycle life, no
> messing around with watering the cells, no 'acid clouds', no explosive gas
> venting... the list goes on.
>
> So, whilst I can accept that if you just don't have the extra money to
> invest in Li then you are stuck with lead, it is simply WRONG to state they
> cost four times as much as lead and using Li makes for a EV that competes
> with an ICE in a way that a lead-based one simply cannot...
>
> IMO!
>
> MW
>
>
> On 9 Jul 2012, at 23:43, SLPinfo.org wrote:
>
> > AGMs will be more expensive than flooded and will be more difficult to
> find
> > in 8v or 6v (don't even consider using 12v of either kind).
> >
> > AGMs won't last nearly as long cycle-wise as floodeds.
> >
> > Lithium will be 3-4 times as expensive as lead though they'll last 4-5
> > times as long.  They have very little Peukert effect so you can make.much
> > better use of.the.stored.energy.  If you can handle the up front cost (I
> > couldn't) you get much better cost per mile than lead.
> >
> > Peter
> > On Jul 9, 2012 1:56 PM, "Stand Culp" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> Peter,
> >> Actually,  I was thinking along the lines of the  non  Lead Acid
> >> batteries for the conversion...   there's been quite a bit of chatter
> >> on here about the 123s  whatchacallemz. I haven't even skimmed the
> >> surface of that  area yet.... and no next to nuthin, but depending,
> >> that seemed a good alternative to the  flooded/AGM  quandry.
> >> valid points, all.   wait  for   it   -
> >> but,  when I was doing some reading on pros and cons of  floodeds/AGMs
> >> one factoid that I had no inkling of:   floodeds leak energy
> >> overnite, where AGMs maintain nearly full level   also maintain charge
> >> level better in cold temps (and tho it doesn't snow much in town, it
> >> does get down there in the mercury dept.   This would come under
> >> maintenance as you said....
> >> slightly off topicness:  for the replacements of the three 12V  deep
> >> cycles in the E-8 mower, the AGMs are less sensitive to being jolted
> >> shaken and stirred.  Until I get the yard rototilled and evened out
> >> more, it's a bumpy damned ride on that lil tractor.  It only needs 3
> >> batts so the expense is worth it for that application, as I'm gettin
> >> very low AHs outta those old Die Hards  (saddest thing is,  they were
> >> damned near bone dry when I picked the machine up from someone that's
> >> expert in these things, and should be ashamed he never checked the
> >> water level ARGGGG)
> >> I still have some research to do on prices for Deep Cycles,  so the
> >> cautions in that regard are very timely, and will be taken into
> >> account.  I don't really WANT to double the budget just on batteries.
> >> Yeah on the replacing the bed with something homemade to save some
> >> weight, seems like a hella lotta work for  probably little actual
> >> effect.
> >> thanks again for the input
> >>
> >> Stand
> >>
> __________________________________________________________________________
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 10:41 AM, SLPinfo.org <[hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >>> A couple of additional comments
> >>>
> >>> Unless you have a sizeable budget lead may be your only choice.  And
> >> unless
> >>> you're planning on a high. Voltage system such as.above.300 volts I
> would
> >>> avoid.AGMs.  Floodeds need more.maintenance but are better for this
> >>> application.
> >>>
> >>> Wayne Anderson in Twin Falls, ID tried.the "lighten the box" thing on
> an
> >>> S10 and didn't think.it.was.worth the effort.  Check.out his evalbum
> >> page.
> >>>
> >>> Peter Flipsen
> >>> On Jul 9, 2012 10:18 AM, "Stand Culp" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Bruce and slpinfoprof:
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks to both of you on your input  :)
> >>>> Before I get started on that though,  I'd like to underscore the info
> >>>> in the discussion list help page:  I couldn't see my post, and after
> >>>> waiting awhile I checked out the help page and logged into the site
> >>>> and went to the Archive, and then could see it  !!   So, anyone having
> >>>> that problem, the Archive is yer solution.
> >>>>
> >>>> Now, on the S-10 thingz:   I've pretty much decided on a fairly recent
> >>>> year S-10 pickup, extended cab  2 wheel drive.
> >>>> The factors I take into consideration to reach that conclusion are:  I
> >>>> want the batteries under the bed (and the idea of the tilt bed for
> >>>> easy service access to the battery packs is awesome kewel, and clever
> >>>> as sliced bread.  I can put a guitar in the extra room inside the cab
> >>>> and even a small amplifier. The bed will be handy for those trips to
> >>>> the small box supply stores, plumbing electrical outfit.  I try to
> >>>> avoid the big box places like home depot and lowes, as everything in
> >>>> there is made in China  :(   whereas Grover's stocks a lot of legacy
> >>>> things made in the good old USA!  (excuse the soapbox on buying
> >>>> domestic: jobs here etc., as important to me as going green and
> >>>> boycotting the oil companies   lol
> >>>> Another thing I thought of in regards to the 4x4 issue, aside from the
> >>>> complexity the added weight of those extra linkages, gears, etc., as
> >>>> well as the loss of efficiency with all those parts between the motor
> >>>> and the wheels.  I'm not big on offroad fun these days anyway.
> >>>> The one thing that Bruce mentioned that I am really liking and will
> >>>> have to do some research on, is NOT buying a running used donor, but
> >>>> seeing what I can find at the salvage places on something newer, but
> >>>> without the pieces I'd need to remove anyway, and then a way to get
> >>>> rid of that ICE metal.
> >>>>
> >>>> On the batteries, I decided to go AGMs in my new Elec-Trak mower, as
> >>>> the die hard deep cycles are gettin pretty anemic. But, though I was
> >>>> thinking of going similarly in the S-10 conversion - we seldom get
> >>>> snow in town here, and the added traction weight with Lead Acid, isn't
> >>>> really an advantage for my situation, and more range is something I'd
> >>>> like to maximize, so, I need to do some heavy research in lighter
> >>>> battery tech like Lith-Ion  or similar battery packs.
> >>>> Even though it will add a bit more weight, I really want the luxury
> >>>> things like power windows/locks.   On passengers,  one is enuf  !!
> >>>> I really am serious about gettin a low profile canopy (same height as
> >>>> the cab) or a tonneau cover.
> >>>> I may go so far as to take the bed off and make something lighter, to
> >>>> also try and increase that range factor as much as possible.  But,
> >>>> that's for the fine-tuning dept., after I have everything else running
> >>>> and charging smoothly....
> >>>> The sound system in one of my cars now is a radio/CD player,  which
> >>>> has to suck a lotta juice, and thinkin MP3 would be a better way to
> >>>> go.  Good speakers etc. are also a weight issue though. So, I'm gonna
> >>>> need to do some research in that area too.  Some of this seems kinda
> >>>> nitpicking and superficial in a sense, but it's part of the big
> >>>> picture.  Luxury, but practicality too.  Range is a big deal, but
> >>>> fortunately, across the river (in Portland, Ore)  they're putting in
> >>>> more recharging stations for electric vehicles, and there's quite a
> >>>> few of them already.
> >>>>
> >>>> Oh, another option, but with the same prefered parameters:  finding
> >>>> someone fairly local that has this already converted that would give
> >>>> it to me, lol. Well, I could buy it too I guess.  Or if I can find
> >>>> someone that likes tinkerin with this stuff, have them make it for
> >>>> me....  I'd rather be playing rock n roll   :p   and last but not
> >>>> least, I'll need a new bumper sticker:   my other vehicle is an
> >>>> electric guitar  :D
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks again for the help and guidance,  and  "may the 4th be with
> you"
> >>>>
> >>>> S-10cerely,  Stand
> >>>>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> >>>>
> >>>> On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 8:16 AM, SLPinfo.org <[hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>> Bruce offers good advice.  Think about what you really need.
> >> Passengers
> >>>> vs
> >>>>> no passengers?   Cargo bed flexibility vs covered carrying capacity?
> >>>>> Regular roads vs. off-road?
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> >>>> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> >>>> |
> >>>> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> >>>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> >>>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >>>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
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Re: Donor truck questions

Martin WINLOW
Hi Peter,

Elithion do a range of very competent BMMS' (monitoring and management ie balancing) the cheapest of which would be around 700 bucks for the <38> lithium cells you would need for a 120V nominal pack (same voltage as the one in my ex-van - evalbum.com/2092). .. http://elithion.com/lithiumate_lite_ordering.php

But I can understand your natural reluctance in spending twice the money on a relatively new technology.  I would argue tho that it is new no longer and there is plenty of evidence that the claims for Li longevity are under-estimated, if anything.

Lastly, I would suggest that you really DO need an BMS with Lead if you are going to avoid murdering them tho obviously you only need half as many slave modules.

Ultimately, it comes down to money - doesn't it always... either you can afford Li or you can't - it just frustrates me when people still bang on about how expensive it is compared with lead when in truth over the lifetime of the pack it is far cheaper.  

Regards, MW.


On 10 Jul 2012, at 14:36, SLPinfo.org wrote:

> Martin
>
> Using your numbers for my 120v pack I would need
>
> 20 x t-125 =$3400
>
> 40 x Li cells = $6800 + $2000-3500 for bms (not needed with lead).  And
> there is the ongoing debate about which bms will do the job properly.
>
> So it certainly can be 3 times the cost.  Even if it is only 2.5 times
> that's a serious difference for many people including me.  And remember I
> did say the cost per mile is better with lithium.
>
> As for cycle life I have seen a lot of creep in the promises of lithium
> lately.  Not sure anyone can yet say with practical confidence that you
> would get more than five times the cycles compared to lead.  I always
> prefer to under promise rather than over promise especially with a new
> potential converter.
>
> Peter Flipsen
> On Jul 10, 2012 4:09 AM, "Martin WINLOW" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Peter said "Lithium will be 3-4 times as expensive as lead..."
>>
>> Sorry, but <really> this is complete twaddle...
>>
>> A Trojan t-125 with a 20 hour rate capacity of 240Ah (one of the more
>> common flooded PbA batteries in use on the EV scene) costs around US$170.
>> It has a <usable> capacity of around half its rated capacity, so about
>> 120Ah at around 6.6V.
>>
>> A 160Ah 3.2V Thundersky cell can be bought for much the same price (albeit
>> with 33% more capacity of the T-125, but hey, let's be generous here).  So
>> LiFePO4 is <at most> twice the cost of lead and you get half the pack
>> weight, much improved vehicle performance (due to less weight and more
>> conducive cell chemistry), potentially <ten times> the cycle life, no
>> messing around with watering the cells, no 'acid clouds', no explosive gas
>> venting... the list goes on.
>>
>> So, whilst I can accept that if you just don't have the extra money to
>> invest in Li then you are stuck with lead, it is simply WRONG to state they
>> cost four times as much as lead and using Li makes for a EV that competes
>> with an ICE in a way that a lead-based one simply cannot...
>>
>> IMO!
>>
>> MW
>>
>>
>> On 9 Jul 2012, at 23:43, SLPinfo.org wrote:
>>
>>> AGMs will be more expensive than flooded and will be more difficult to
>> find
>>> in 8v or 6v (don't even consider using 12v of either kind).
>>>
>>> AGMs won't last nearly as long cycle-wise as floodeds.
>>>
>>> Lithium will be 3-4 times as expensive as lead though they'll last 4-5
>>> times as long.  They have very little Peukert effect so you can make.much
>>> better use of.the.stored.energy.  If you can handle the up front cost (I
>>> couldn't) you get much better cost per mile than lead.
>>>
>>> Peter
>>> On Jul 9, 2012 1:56 PM, "Stand Culp" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Peter,
>>>> Actually,  I was thinking along the lines of the  non  Lead Acid
>>>> batteries for the conversion...   there's been quite a bit of chatter
>>>> on here about the 123s  whatchacallemz. I haven't even skimmed the
>>>> surface of that  area yet.... and no next to nuthin, but depending,
>>>> that seemed a good alternative to the  flooded/AGM  quandry.
>>>> valid points, all.   wait  for   it   -
>>>> but,  when I was doing some reading on pros and cons of  floodeds/AGMs
>>>> one factoid that I had no inkling of:   floodeds leak energy
>>>> overnite, where AGMs maintain nearly full level   also maintain charge
>>>> level better in cold temps (and tho it doesn't snow much in town, it
>>>> does get down there in the mercury dept.   This would come under
>>>> maintenance as you said....
>>>> slightly off topicness:  for the replacements of the three 12V  deep
>>>> cycles in the E-8 mower, the AGMs are less sensitive to being jolted
>>>> shaken and stirred.  Until I get the yard rototilled and evened out
>>>> more, it's a bumpy damned ride on that lil tractor.  It only needs 3
>>>> batts so the expense is worth it for that application, as I'm gettin
>>>> very low AHs outta those old Die Hards  (saddest thing is,  they were
>>>> damned near bone dry when I picked the machine up from someone that's
>>>> expert in these things, and should be ashamed he never checked the
>>>> water level ARGGGG)
>>>> I still have some research to do on prices for Deep Cycles,  so the
>>>> cautions in that regard are very timely, and will be taken into
>>>> account.  I don't really WANT to double the budget just on batteries.
>>>> Yeah on the replacing the bed with something homemade to save some
>>>> weight, seems like a hella lotta work for  probably little actual
>>>> effect.
>>>> thanks again for the input
>>>>
>>>> Stand
>>>>
>> __________________________________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 10:41 AM, SLPinfo.org <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> A couple of additional comments
>>>>>
>>>>> Unless you have a sizeable budget lead may be your only choice.  And
>>>> unless
>>>>> you're planning on a high. Voltage system such as.above.300 volts I
>> would
>>>>> avoid.AGMs.  Floodeds need more.maintenance but are better for this
>>>>> application.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wayne Anderson in Twin Falls, ID tried.the "lighten the box" thing on
>> an
>>>>> S10 and didn't think.it.was.worth the effort.  Check.out his evalbum
>>>> page.
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter Flipsen
>>>>> On Jul 9, 2012 10:18 AM, "Stand Culp" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Bruce and slpinfoprof:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks to both of you on your input  :)
>>>>>> Before I get started on that though,  I'd like to underscore the info
>>>>>> in the discussion list help page:  I couldn't see my post, and after
>>>>>> waiting awhile I checked out the help page and logged into the site
>>>>>> and went to the Archive, and then could see it  !!   So, anyone having
>>>>>> that problem, the Archive is yer solution.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now, on the S-10 thingz:   I've pretty much decided on a fairly recent
>>>>>> year S-10 pickup, extended cab  2 wheel drive.
>>>>>> The factors I take into consideration to reach that conclusion are:  I
>>>>>> want the batteries under the bed (and the idea of the tilt bed for
>>>>>> easy service access to the battery packs is awesome kewel, and clever
>>>>>> as sliced bread.  I can put a guitar in the extra room inside the cab
>>>>>> and even a small amplifier. The bed will be handy for those trips to
>>>>>> the small box supply stores, plumbing electrical outfit.  I try to
>>>>>> avoid the big box places like home depot and lowes, as everything in
>>>>>> there is made in China  :(   whereas Grover's stocks a lot of legacy
>>>>>> things made in the good old USA!  (excuse the soapbox on buying
>>>>>> domestic: jobs here etc., as important to me as going green and
>>>>>> boycotting the oil companies   lol
>>>>>> Another thing I thought of in regards to the 4x4 issue, aside from the
>>>>>> complexity the added weight of those extra linkages, gears, etc., as
>>>>>> well as the loss of efficiency with all those parts between the motor
>>>>>> and the wheels.  I'm not big on offroad fun these days anyway.
>>>>>> The one thing that Bruce mentioned that I am really liking and will
>>>>>> have to do some research on, is NOT buying a running used donor, but
>>>>>> seeing what I can find at the salvage places on something newer, but
>>>>>> without the pieces I'd need to remove anyway, and then a way to get
>>>>>> rid of that ICE metal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On the batteries, I decided to go AGMs in my new Elec-Trak mower, as
>>>>>> the die hard deep cycles are gettin pretty anemic. But, though I was
>>>>>> thinking of going similarly in the S-10 conversion - we seldom get
>>>>>> snow in town here, and the added traction weight with Lead Acid, isn't
>>>>>> really an advantage for my situation, and more range is something I'd
>>>>>> like to maximize, so, I need to do some heavy research in lighter
>>>>>> battery tech like Lith-Ion  or similar battery packs.
>>>>>> Even though it will add a bit more weight, I really want the luxury
>>>>>> things like power windows/locks.   On passengers,  one is enuf  !!
>>>>>> I really am serious about gettin a low profile canopy (same height as
>>>>>> the cab) or a tonneau cover.
>>>>>> I may go so far as to take the bed off and make something lighter, to
>>>>>> also try and increase that range factor as much as possible.  But,
>>>>>> that's for the fine-tuning dept., after I have everything else running
>>>>>> and charging smoothly....
>>>>>> The sound system in one of my cars now is a radio/CD player,  which
>>>>>> has to suck a lotta juice, and thinkin MP3 would be a better way to
>>>>>> go.  Good speakers etc. are also a weight issue though. So, I'm gonna
>>>>>> need to do some research in that area too.  Some of this seems kinda
>>>>>> nitpicking and superficial in a sense, but it's part of the big
>>>>>> picture.  Luxury, but practicality too.  Range is a big deal, but
>>>>>> fortunately, across the river (in Portland, Ore)  they're putting in
>>>>>> more recharging stations for electric vehicles, and there's quite a
>>>>>> few of them already.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oh, another option, but with the same prefered parameters:  finding
>>>>>> someone fairly local that has this already converted that would give
>>>>>> it to me, lol. Well, I could buy it too I guess.  Or if I can find
>>>>>> someone that likes tinkerin with this stuff, have them make it for
>>>>>> me....  I'd rather be playing rock n roll   :p   and last but not
>>>>>> least, I'll need a new bumper sticker:   my other vehicle is an
>>>>>> electric guitar  :D
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks again for the help and guidance,  and  "may the 4th be with
>> you"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> S-10cerely,  Stand
>>>>>>
>> ________________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 8:16 AM, SLPinfo.org <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Bruce offers good advice.  Think about what you really need.
>>>> Passengers
>>>>>> vs
>>>>>>> no passengers?   Cargo bed flexibility vs covered carrying capacity?
>>>>>>> Regular roads vs. off-road?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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Re: Donor truck questions

brucedp5
In reply to this post by Martin WINLOW
Over the 15+ year life of my S-10 Blazer EV conversion (before, due to
no fault of being an EV, being in the wrong place at the wrong time and
being turned into a crushed soda can  ::sniff::  ), I had performed many
a PbSO4 pack change.

Today's pack chemistries were not an option back then because of price
and availability. As evdl members have posted, that is not the status
today.

If I were doing a S-10 Truck conversion today, I would save my cookies
until I had the ca$h to go with today's use of a Li-ion pack. My past
experience tells me it is well worth the additional co$t to go Li-ion.

But perhaps Stand is more familiar or used to PbSO4 lead-acid thus
making him hesitant about some unknown battery type that seems to cost
more.

?What if Stand just went with PbSO4, and later once he felt more
familiar with Li-ion, at a pack change, he could do an upgrade to
Li-ion?

The concern some evdl members might have would be that a
better-bang-for-the-buck would be to make the Li-ion decision now, and
not have to pay later for the other changes needed to switch from PbSO4
to Li-ion: adding a BMS (battery management system), tweaking or
replacing the charger(s), +more.

So, I ask the experienced evdl members: is there a way for Stand to try
out the cheaper but shorter lived PbSO4 design, and then later switch to
Li-ion in a less co$tly/painful way?

My thinking is that Stand's conversion would likely be of a 144+VDC
system-design/performance with at least a 50+mi range @55mph
constant-speed during the warmer months.

...
Sidebar
Though it sounds like Stand is not interested in spending even more
money, the other advantage with a Li-ion pack is not being locked in how
many large heavy 6V wet-cell batteries will fit. The ability to spend
more on an AC motor/controller thus having regen, and the ability to
double+ your pack voltage to reduce IR loss are succinct advantages over
the ol' low voltage DC motor/controller designs of the past.


{brucedp.150m.com}




-
On Tue, Jul 10, 2012, at 11:08 AM, Martin WINLOW wrote:

> Peter said "Lithium will be 3-4 times as expensive as lead..."
>
> Sorry, but <really> this is complete twaddle...
>
> A Trojan t-125 with a 20 hour rate capacity of 240Ah (one of the more
> common flooded PbA batteries in use on the EV scene) costs around US$170.
>  It has a <usable> capacity of around half its rated capacity, so about
> 120Ah at around 6.6V.
>
> A 160Ah 3.2V Thundersky cell can be bought for much the same price
> (albeit with 33% more capacity of the T-125, but hey, let's be generous
> here).  So LiFePO4 is <at most> twice the cost of lead and you get half
> the pack weight, much improved vehicle performance (due to less weight
> and more conducive cell chemistry), potentially <ten times> the cycle
> life, no messing around with watering the cells, no 'acid clouds', no
> explosive gas venting... the list goes on.
>
> So, whilst I can accept that if you just don't have the extra money to
> invest in Li then you are stuck with lead, it is simply WRONG to state
> they cost four times as much as lead and using Li makes for a EV that
> competes with an ICE in a way that a lead-based one simply cannot...
> IMO!
-

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - Faster than the air-speed velocity of an
                          unladen european swallow

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Re: Donor truck questions

Ken Overway
I am going to do what Bruce has proposed. I just bought $2k worth of Pb-acid batteries and hope to save up for Li-batteries for the next pack replacement. I am hoping that a reprogrammed charger, new connectors, and a BMS is all the re-fit will require. Besides the cost, my other problem with Li batteries is that they all seem to be made in China. I'm loathe to buy anything from China unless it is unavoidable/ I heard there was a new battery plant in Holland, MI making Li batteries, but only for the big companies. With the Li change over I should be able to lighten my car and/or put some batteries in parallel to increase the range on my 120V system. Time will tell...

-Ken Overway

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Re: Donor truck questions

Mark Grasser
Kevin,
No offense but when doing a lead conversion the LAST thing you do is buy the
batteries. You think you will be done soon. Turns out I am a year into mine
and probably a year to go. A lot of the guys, me included, use cardboard and
a glue gun for batteries.

If I were you I would be on the phone cancelling the order. There are a lot
of more important things to buy and do before the batteries will be needed.


Sincerely,
Mark Grasser
 

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Ken Overway
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 3:31 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Donor truck questions

I am going to do what Bruce has proposed. I just bought $2k worth of Pb-acid
batteries and hope to save up for Li-batteries for the next pack
replacement. I am hoping that a reprogrammed charger, new connectors, and a
BMS is all the re-fit will require. Besides the cost, my other problem with
Li batteries is that they all seem to be made in China. I'm loathe to buy
anything from China unless it is unavoidable/ I heard there was a new
battery plant in Holland, MI making Li batteries, but only for the big
companies. With the Li change over I should be able to lighten my car and/or
put some batteries in parallel to increase the range on my 120V system. Time
will tell...

-Ken Overway

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Re: Donor truck questions

brucedp5
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by electruck
I remembered some noise on the newswires about some serious tough times
for a battery maker in Holland, MI so I back-tracked and did some
research. Those with more current/correct info please post.

After the poor workmanship errors at the A123 plant that led to the Volt
fire, and then the 'conservatives' piled on to seriously hurt their
stock price, there were reports of A123's demise. But they are
hanging-on with other products, while they make-good on resolving pack
issues.

Also, read
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-USDoE-co-funded-USABC-Johnson-Controls-EV-pih-li-ion-R-D-tp4560976.html
EVLN: USDoE co-funded USABC Johnson Controls’ EV/pih li-ion R&D

where Johnson Controls got a shot in the arm from the Fed.

But the same as the other U.S. battery makers, they have to compete with
the cheap prices in China, and the huge battery maker LG Chem in S.
Korea.

It is not surprising that battery makers do not want to talk to
customers with low-quantity orders. They are in a cut-throat business,
and the business is into large quantity runs to fill huge contract
orders.

Still, with no U.S. battery maker selling to the little customer, it
feels like the days of the late 1990's and 2000's when Standard
Oil/Chevron's patent kept the NiMH prices high and unavailable. You
could not get NiMH or Li-ion affordably to save your life. Nor did any
EV driver want to deal with paying an Oil company's patent after the
shenanigans of stopping all EV production the first time around.

So, you make not like buying from China, but at least you can buy them.

Besides, even if you found a U.S. Li-ion battery maker source willing to
sell in small consumer quantities, the lithium used to make them is most
likely coming from China or outside the U.S. While there are lithium
sources in the U.S. and our friendly neighbor Canada, with huge deposits
in S. America, they need to be further developed before they will have
an impact on China's lithium supply. Read
http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html#nabble-td3166709
Lithium: a key rival to petroleum, S. American & Canadian mines

I suggest, that you temper your "Buy U.S.A" with some further research
in this global economy, and buy what you can from U.S.A sources, but
also know sometimes you take what you can get.

BTW - When the donor vehicle was made, it was constructed from global
sources (possibly: glass, rubber gaskets, and interior from Africa,
tires from Japan, sheet metal from China or Korea, etc.). Your U.S.A.
donor is not truly/totally "made in America". Like a Coda EV, it is
assembled from global sources, including China (which has its own
comrade sources).


{brucedp.150m.com}



-
On Wed, Jul 11, 2012, at 10:33 AM, Collin Kidder wrote:
> On 7/11/2012 9:22 AM, Electric Blue auto convertions wrote:
> > a conversion of any vehicle should only take about 10 days or less . I too hate the idea of buying batts from china, but that where the cheap prices come from . I heard the Holland MI plant is going belly up or about to?? I could be wrong
> >
>
> I live around 30 miles or so away from Holland, MI. I haven't heard
> anything about them going out of business or closing that plant.
> However, I have had no luck in getting anyone from the company to give
> me even the slightest impression that they'd even be willing to urinate
> in my direction if I were on fire. They really don't seem interested in
> dealing with small time people at all.  Regardless of their current
> business status I would not expect to get any batteries out of them.
> Now, if you were GM or Mercedes Benz on the other hand...
-
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Re: Donor truck questions

electruck
In reply to this post by Mark Grasser
on the donor truck issue:  I"ve been very patient, and workin on my
Elec-Trak  tractor/mower, while waiting for exactly what I want in an
S-10 for my conversion. I think I've found it !!  nice crew cab with
power windows/locks etc with a matchin shell, in excellent condition
for a pretty damned good price.  I'll wind up gettin a toneau cover
for it for everyday use, but the shell will be nice to do some close
by camping etc.  I'll keep you posted on developments, but for now I'd
underscore:  being patient and determined to wait for what you really
want...  I'll probably use the truck as is for this year so I'll have
the money to get the conversion done  quickly once I start.
Thanks again for all the great advice and benefits of your experience
!!  I am gonna love this as much as my electric tractor, only moreso
:)   Great group here, I can't express how much I value your wisdom
and input  -  have a great day  :-)

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