Drive toward electric-car future picking up speed

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
8 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Drive toward electric-car future picking up speed

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Nothing earth shaking in this article, but it was pusblished mainstream
and prominent.

http://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/drive-toward-electric-car-future-picking-up-speed/

Peri

-------

By Ann McFeatters
Syndicated columnist

Let’s talk about one of our favorite things: cars. And more
specifically, how the internal combustion engine is on the verge of
extinction.

Not only that, but we’re also being told that in five years we’re going
to be driving self-driving cars. OK, that’s not accurate. They will be
driving us — or at least some of us.

Unless you were at the beach and had your head buried in the sand
because of worries about Russia’s determination to wipe out democracy on
the planet, you undoubtedly heard that Volvo will stop making cars that
run solely on gasoline.

Volvo announced that starting in 2019 all new models it introduces will
be either hybrids or vehicles powered by batteries. While the new
electric cars will initially be made in China, where air pollution is
critically dangerous, a new plant is being built near Charleston, S.C.,
and some will be built in Europe.
Top Opinion stories

Tesla, the posh electric carmaker, plans to sell hundreds of thousands
of new electric models priced at “only” $35,000, which is substantially
less expensive than most of the flashy vehicles it currently sells. The
new cars will be serviced at 250 centers that don’t charge service fees!
If you live too far from a service center, Tesla will send one of its
350 special vans to your home or office to repair your vehicle on site!
The vans will have toys for children, espresso machines and, you won’t
believe this, replacement parts. I know. I know. Except for the sticker
shock, it seems like heaven.

Tesla, which makes nowhere near the number of cars that Ford and General
Motors produce, earlier this year beat the two auto behemoths in stock
market value because investors think the future is in electric vehicles.
Part of this is urban congestion and part of it is climate change —
carbon dioxide from burning gasoline depletes the ozone layer, playing
havoc with climate patterns around the globe.

Ann Arbor, Mich., where I once lived, is described by The New York Times
as the new hub for research into “autonomous vehicles.” Reporter Neal
Boudette wrote: “Soon students and staff members at the University of
Michigan will be able to get around the engineering campus on fully
automated, driverless shuttle buses provided by a French company drawn
to Ann Arbor by the university’s autonomous-car test track, known as
MCity.”

Imagine, parents. You can pay $59,784 a year for your beloved child to
ride in circles around MCity.

In Pittsburgh, The National Robotics Engineering Center is working on
self-driving vehicles. Sorry, students. Robots preferred.

As usual in this country, these developments are controversial. Despite
predictions that most new models produced in five to 10 years will be
self-drivers, there are many who scoff at that. A lot of safety issues
still have to be resolved. And a lot of us like to drive, although the
self-parking part is very neat. (Why do so many men stop and smirk when
a woman driver is parallel parking, even if she could be Danica
Patrick?)

There are also many who think electric cars are not the wave of the
future in the United States. For one thing, hybrid cars (gasoline plus
electricity) still constitute only 2 percent of sales. That’s partly
because we love our big SUVs, and the price of gasoline has been
declining. Also, we don’t like to wait for lengthy charging times, and
public charging stations are scarce. And we are used to driving long
distances; electric cars don’t go much beyond 200 miles on a single
charge.

But every major carmaker is investing in these technologies. The federal
government has provided incentives to buy a $35,000 battery-operated
Chevrolet Bolt, for example. The Obama administration actively
encouraged the production of electric vehicles.

Actually, self-driving vehicles and electric cars are sort of connected.
Apparently, it is easier to link self-driving software to batteries than
to internal combustion engines. Who knew?

In Europe, grim statistics on health damage from diesel engines are
sparking electric vehicle sales. One unknown in the U.S. is whether
federal fuel mileage standards and pollution goals will be weakened as
the current administration seeks to do. If so, this could dampen
enthusiasm for cars that meet stricter health and environmental
requirements.

But not for long. The future is coming, and it’s bringing more power
cords and fewer smirks.
©,2017 Tribune News Service
Ann McFeatters has covered the White House and national politics since
1986. Her email address is [hidden email].

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Drive toward electric-car future picking up speed

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Nothing very accurate or relevant you mean?

I especially loved the comment that CO2 depletes the ozone.

This person is a moron.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 15, 2017, at 9:31 AM, Peri Hartman via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Part of this is urban congestion and part of it is climate change — carbon dioxide from burning gasoline depletes the ozone layer, playing havoc with climate patterns around the globe.

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Drive toward electric-car future picking up speed

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Let's stop the name calling right here.

It is fine to correct a factual error
and you can even give your opinion of a certain statement or position
without attacking the person, it typically reflects bad on the speaker.

Thanks,
Cor.
-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of paul dove via EV
Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2017 8:21 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Drive toward electric-car future picking up speed

Nothing very accurate or relevant you mean?

I especially loved the comment that CO2 depletes the ozone.

This person is a moron.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 15, 2017, at 9:31 AM, Peri Hartman via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Part of this is urban congestion and part of it is climate change — carbon dioxide from burning gasoline depletes the ozone layer, playing havoc with climate patterns around the globe.

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Drive toward electric-car future picking up speed

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
There were several details that were wrong or not so relevant, such as
equating autonomous vehicles with EVs. But I was happy to see him
broadly supporting EVs. I think it's very telling to have a layman
article on the e-home page of a major newspaper being our advocate.

Peri

------ Original Message ------
From: "Cor van de Water via EV" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Cc:
Sent: 15-Jul-17 3:30:06 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Drive toward electric-car future picking up speed

>Let's stop the name calling right here.
>
>It is fine to correct a factual error
>and you can even give your opinion of a certain statement or position
>without attacking the person, it typically reflects bad on the speaker.
>
>Thanks,
>Cor.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of paul dove via
>EV
>Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2017 8:21 AM
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Drive toward electric-car future picking up speed
>
>Nothing very accurate or relevant you mean?
>
>I especially loved the comment that CO2 depletes the ozone.
>
>This person is a moron.
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>>On Jul 15, 2017, at 9:31 AM, Peri Hartman via EV <[hidden email]>
>>wrote:
>>
>>Part of this is urban congestion and part of it is climate change —
>>carbon dioxide from burning gasoline depletes the ozone layer, playing
>>havoc with climate patterns around the globe.
>
>_______________________________________________
>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag
>racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>_______________________________________________
>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Drive toward electric-car future picking up speed

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On 15 Jul 2017 at 15:30, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

> Let's stop the name calling right here.

I think the poster was disparaging the article's writer, not Peri.  

However, I have to agree with Cor that ad hominem attacks -- no matter where
they're directed -- are more a reflection on the attacker than on the person
being attacked.  

That said, it's a sad reality that the state of journalism has declined over
the years. Too many editors assign stories to reporters who don't have
adequate background in the subjects, and the reporters often don't take (or
aren't given) enough time for sufficient background research.  Then readers
/ viewers / listeners end up misinformed.  

Positive press for EVs is obviously a good thing, but the Seattle Times is a
newspaper with a long and distinguished history.  It's surprising and
disheartening to see the errors in this story.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Drive toward electric-car future picking up speed

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Yes of course I was referring to the author.

And even if what you say is true the editor should have caught that error.



Sent from my iPad

> On Jul 16, 2017, at 5:29 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 15 Jul 2017 at 15:30, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
>>
>> Let's stop the name calling right here.
>
> I think the poster was disparaging the article's writer, not Peri.  
>
> However, I have to agree with Cor that ad hominem attacks -- no matter where
> they're directed -- are more a reflection on the attacker than on the person
> being attacked.  
>
> That said, it's a sad reality that the state of journalism has declined over
> the years. Too many editors assign stories to reporters who don't have
> adequate background in the subjects, and the reporters often don't take (or
> aren't given) enough time for sufficient background research.  Then readers
> / viewers / listeners end up misinformed.  
>
> Positive press for EVs is obviously a good thing, but the Seattle Times is a
> newspaper with a long and distinguished history.  It's surprising and
> disheartening to see the errors in this story.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Drive toward electric-car future picking up speed

tomw
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Let's move away from Seattle for a moment Peri...think midwest states like Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Missouri... and southern states like Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana...or western states outside the major metropolises such as Denver, like Nebraska, Colorado, Utah, i.e. most of the population of the country, and mostly in "flyover land" where most of the 90% without large discretionary spending live.  Many of these people know almost nothing about electric cars, for that matter I regularly meet people in NV who know nothing about them. They also wouldn't even consider paying $30k for a car because they can't afford it.  And they can't afford to buy a used EV and pay to have new batteries installed.  And besides, they can't afford to live close to work so they have long commutes in states where there is little charging infrastructure, so impractical for a lower cost, shorter range ev.  Most of the country buys used ice cars for less than $15k, many for less than $8k.  And many of them depend on repairing them themselves to save money. They buy a new engine for less than $1000.  They are wary of ev's because they don't understand them and don't know how to repair them if something goes wrong.  

The ev market, especially Tesla, is living off the top decile of the population, maybe the top two deciles for the Leaf, Bolt and model 3. But then, that's who has most of the national wealth.  I'd wager it will be a looong time before even half the population is driving evs, especially if they have to buy them through dealers.  When many of the major manufacturers start selling evs the price will have to come way down and dealers will have to become far more invested in selling evs to enlarge the market or they will quickly saturate it.  The top 10% have lots of money, but they only want so many cars, and as long as the other 90% can buy a used ice in good condition and 100k or so miles left in it, that 10% will have a hard time finding a buyer for their used ev in order to buy a newer one.

I think it is good to be positive about evs, but I also like to be realistic.  I've been driving an 80 mile range ev for 8 years and I usually get the same three questions: How far? How fast? How much? When they hear the last one ($20k) they exhale a "whew", and walk away. Most of the country ain't like the SF bay area (where I lived for many years) or Seattle.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Drive toward electric-car future picking up speed

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
You are mostly right, but are presenting a glass half empty view.  I think
the glass is half full and filling fast.

> Flyover states where most of the 90% without large discretionary
spending live.
* I think it is more like 50% with the other 50% in the metro areas.

> Most of the country buys used ice cars for less than $15k, many for less
than $8k
* The typical cost of Used EV's too!  Chevy Volts for $12-13k, Leaf's for
$7-$9k

>  they can't afford to buy a used EV and pay for new batteries...
* Most used EV's probably have many tens of thousands of miles to go.
Remember, the original Prius $6k battery?  By the time you needed one,
they were $500 for a low mileage one from salvage dealers.  Same goes for
EV batteries.  There will be plenty available from salvage.

> They are wary of ev's because they don't understand them
* Hence the need for education and exposure.  Not just ignoring them.

> The rich 10% will have a hard time finding a buyer for their used ev...
* And that is why used EV's are so cheap  and always will be.  They also
lost the $7k federal credit so that also brings the market price down.  I
just got a 2013 Volt with 55k miles on it for $12k.  (He wanted $13k).

Most EV's are leased and so most come off lease at 3 years with low
mileage and well kept!  They are easy to find on the web.

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of tomw via EV
Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2017 12:22 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Drive toward electric-car future picking up speed

Let's move away from Seattle for a moment Peri...think midwest states like
Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Missouri... and southern states like Alabama,
Mississippi, Louisiana...or western states outside the major metropolises
such as Denver, like Nebraska, Colorado, Utah, i.e. most of the population
of the country, and mostly in "flyover land" where most of the 90% without
large discretionary spending live.  Many of these people know almost
nothing about electric cars, for that matter I regularly meet people in NV
who know nothing about them. They also wouldn't even consider paying $30k
for a car because they can't afford it.  And they can't afford to buy a
used EV and pay to have new batteries installed.  And besides, they can't
afford to live close to work so they have long commutes in states where
there is little charging infrastructure, so impractical for a lower cost,
shorter range ev.
Most of the country buys used ice cars for less than $15k, many for less
than $8k.  And many of them depend on repairing them themselves to save
money. They buy a new engine for less than $1000.  They are wary of ev's
because they don't understand them and don't know how to repair them if
something goes wrong.

The ev market, especially Tesla, is living off the top decile of the
population, maybe the top two deciles for the Leaf, Bolt and model 3. But
then, that's who has most of the national wealth.  I'd wager it will be a
looong time before even half the population is driving evs, especially if
they have to buy them through dealers.  When many of the major
manufacturers start selling evs the price will have to come way down and
dealers will have to become far more invested in selling evs to enlarge
the market or they will quickly saturate it.  The top 10% have lots of
money, but they only want so many cars, and as long as the other 90% can
buy a used ice in good condition and 100k or so miles left in it, that 10%
will have a hard time finding a buyer for their used ev in order to buy a
newer one.

--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Drive-toward-
electric-car-future-picking-up-speed-tp4687349p4687360.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag
racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Loading...