EV For Wind Farm Tour

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EV For Wind Farm Tour

martin emde-2
Greetings all,

I teach an EV conversion course at a high school on Maui.  We are currently
working on our second conversion.  Just recently we took our class on a
field trip to the local wind farm (Kaheawa Wind Power
http://www.kaheawa.com/kwp/ ) which consists of 20 turbines @ 1.5 MW each
located on the slopes of West Maui.  As we ascended the mountain in a large,
gas hungry van, the students immediately suggested to our guide a "greener"
approach to the tour.  "How about an electric van/suv/jeep?"  Following the
tour we talked a bit more about some sort of partnership with the company in
which our class could convert a vehicle that could be used for their tours.
In return our program would receive the financial support to complete the
conversion.  It's one of those win-win situations where everyone involved
has something to gain.  So here's my question:  Can anyone recommend some
good candidate conversion vehicles for this specific application?  The
minimum requirements are that it must be able to carry a full load of
passengers up a 4 mile gravel road with a 3000 ft. elevation gain (17% max
grade) on a single charge.  The vehicle would do no more than one such tour
per day so it could be charged over night.  In fact they currently do no
more that 6 tours per year.  The vehicle should seat at least 4 including
the driver yet must be able to carry the max number of passengers that it
was designed for.  It does not have to be 4WD yet that would be a plus.  The
brakes must obviously be capable of bringing the passengers back down the
mountain safely.  If you know of the perfect vehicle please let us know.
Also, what components would you use in terms of motor (size) and
controller.  At this point we are thinking lead-acid yet a lithium pack may
be an option.  It turns our that the wind farm will be installing a 1MWhr
backup battery at their site in the next few weeks to do some energy storage
testing.  Perhaps this technology will lend itself to an EV.  We have not
discussed any of the liability issues as of yet as that will surely enter
into the equation.  Any advice or insight is appreciated.

Martin Emde
www.seaburyhall.org/engineering
http://www.evalbum.com/1209
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Re: EV For Wind Farm Tour

David Sharpe
Your EV must have regen because of the elevation changes. I suggest an AC
drive or failing that a compound motor (Kostov). Praps they will let you
charge on site. You could do a topographical survey of the rout indicating
distances & vertical changes. Will the EV do other trips?
I cant offer advice about a suitable van or 4wd as Im in Australia and dont
know what subject vehs you have there.
Regards
David Sharpe
----- Original Message -----
From: "martin emde" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 12:53 PM
Subject: [EVDL] EV For Wind Farm Tour


> Greetings all,
>
> I teach an EV conversion course at a high school on Maui.  We are
> currently
> working on our second conversion.  Just recently we took our class on a
> field trip to the local wind farm (Kaheawa Wind Power
> http://www.kaheawa.com/kwp/ ) which consists of 20 turbines @ 1.5 MW each
> located on the slopes of West Maui.  As we ascended the mountain in a
> large,
> gas hungry van, the students immediately suggested to our guide a
> "greener"
> approach to the tour.  "How about an electric van/suv/jeep?"  Following
> the
> tour we talked a bit more about some sort of partnership with the company
> in
> which our class could convert a vehicle that could be used for their
> tours.
> In return our program would receive the financial support to complete the
> conversion.  It's one of those win-win situations where everyone involved
> has something to gain.  So here's my question:  Can anyone recommend some
> good candidate conversion vehicles for this specific application?  The
> minimum requirements are that it must be able to carry a full load of
> passengers up a 4 mile gravel road with a 3000 ft. elevation gain (17% max
> grade) on a single charge.  The vehicle would do no more than one such
> tour
> per day so it could be charged over night.  In fact they currently do no
> more that 6 tours per year.  The vehicle should seat at least 4 including
> the driver yet must be able to carry the max number of passengers that it
> was designed for.  It does not have to be 4WD yet that would be a plus.
> The
> brakes must obviously be capable of bringing the passengers back down the
> mountain safely.  If you know of the perfect vehicle please let us know.
> Also, what components would you use in terms of motor (size) and
> controller.  At this point we are thinking lead-acid yet a lithium pack
> may
> be an option.  It turns our that the wind farm will be installing a 1MWhr
> backup battery at their site in the next few weeks to do some energy
> storage
> testing.  Perhaps this technology will lend itself to an EV.  We have not
> discussed any of the liability issues as of yet as that will surely enter
> into the equation.  Any advice or insight is appreciated.
>
> Martin Emde
> www.seaburyhall.org/engineering
> http://www.evalbum.com/1209
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


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Re: EV For Wind Farm Tour

tigerbody
In reply to this post by martin emde-2
There are a few cars and trucks out there that will fit this requirement.
I even saw one on eBay 6 months ago.

Have you looked out there @ the different EVs available?

PS I am in Puna

On Feb 11, 2008 3:53 PM, martin emde <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Greetings all,
>
> I teach an EV conversion course at a high school on Maui.  We are
> currently
> working on our second conversion.  Just recently we took our class on a
> field trip to the local wind farm (Kaheawa Wind Power
> http://www.kaheawa.com/kwp/ ) which consists of 20 turbines @ 1.5 MW each
> located on the slopes of West Maui.  As we ascended the mountain in a
> large,
> gas hungry van, the students immediately suggested to our guide a
> "greener"
> approach to the tour.  "How about an electric van/suv/jeep?"  Following
> the
> tour we talked a bit more about some sort of partnership with the company
> in
> which our class could convert a vehicle that could be used for their
> tours.
> In return our program would receive the financial support to complete the
> conversion.  It's one of those win-win situations where everyone involved
> has something to gain.  So here's my question:  Can anyone recommend some
> good candidate conversion vehicles for this specific application?  The
> minimum requirements are that it must be able to carry a full load of
> passengers up a 4 mile gravel road with a 3000 ft. elevation gain (17% max
> grade) on a single charge.  The vehicle would do no more than one such
> tour
> per day so it could be charged over night.  In fact they currently do no
> more that 6 tours per year.  The vehicle should seat at least 4 including
> the driver yet must be able to carry the max number of passengers that it
> was designed for.  It does not have to be 4WD yet that would be a plus.
>  The
> brakes must obviously be capable of bringing the passengers back down the
> mountain safely.  If you know of the perfect vehicle please let us know.
> Also, what components would you use in terms of motor (size) and
> controller.  At this point we are thinking lead-acid yet a lithium pack
> may
> be an option.  It turns our that the wind farm will be installing a 1MWhr
> backup battery at their site in the next few weeks to do some energy
> storage
> testing.  Perhaps this technology will lend itself to an EV.  We have not
> discussed any of the liability issues as of yet as that will surely enter
> into the equation.  Any advice or insight is appreciated.
>
> Martin Emde
> www.seaburyhall.org/engineering
> http://www.evalbum.com/1209
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



--
Patrick Ira Donegan
TigerBody Electric Vehicles
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Re: EV For Wind Farm Tour

tigerbody
heck this page:
http://spark-ev.com/comingsoon.html

On Feb 11, 2008 5:17 PM, patrick DonEgan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> There are a few cars and trucks out there that will fit this requirement.
> I even saw one on eBay 6 months ago.
>
> Have you looked out there @ the different EVs available?
>
> PS I am in Puna
>
>
> On Feb 11, 2008 3:53 PM, martin emde <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Greetings all,
> >
> > I teach an EV conversion course at a high school on Maui.  We are
> > currently
> > working on our second conversion.  Just recently we took our class on a
> > field trip to the local wind farm (Kaheawa Wind Power
> > http://www.kaheawa.com/kwp/ ) which consists of 20 turbines @ 1.5 MW
> > each
> > located on the slopes of West Maui.  As we ascended the mountain in a
> > large,
> > gas hungry van, the students immediately suggested to our guide a
> > "greener"
> > approach to the tour.  "How about an electric van/suv/jeep?"  Following
> > the
> > tour we talked a bit more about some sort of partnership with the
> > company in
> > which our class could convert a vehicle that could be used for their
> > tours.
> > In return our program would receive the financial support to complete
> > the
> > conversion.  It's one of those win-win situations where everyone
> > involved
> > has something to gain.  So here's my question:  Can anyone recommend
> > some
> > good candidate conversion vehicles for this specific application?  The
> > minimum requirements are that it must be able to carry a full load of
> > passengers up a 4 mile gravel road with a 3000 ft. elevation gain (17%
> > max
> > grade) on a single charge.  The vehicle would do no more than one such
> > tour
> > per day so it could be charged over night.  In fact they currently do no
> > more that 6 tours per year.  The vehicle should seat at least 4
> > including
> > the driver yet must be able to carry the max number of passengers that
> > it
> > was designed for.  It does not have to be 4WD yet that would be a plus.
> >  The
> > brakes must obviously be capable of bringing the passengers back down
> > the
> > mountain safely.  If you know of the perfect vehicle please let us know.
> > Also, what components would you use in terms of motor (size) and
> > controller.  At this point we are thinking lead-acid yet a lithium pack
> > may
> > be an option.  It turns our that the wind farm will be installing a
> > 1MWhr
> > backup battery at their site in the next few weeks to do some energy
> > storage
> > testing.  Perhaps this technology will lend itself to an EV.  We have
> > not
> > discussed any of the liability issues as of yet as that will surely
> > enter
> > into the equation.  Any advice or insight is appreciated.
> >
> > Martin Emde
> > www.seaburyhall.org/engineering
> > http://www.evalbum.com/1209
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Patrick Ira Donegan
> TigerBody Electric Vehicles
>



--
Patrick Ira Donegan
TigerBody Electric Vehicles
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Re: EV For Wind Farm Tour

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by martin emde-2
martin emde wrote:
> I teach an EV conversion course at a high school on Maui... we took our
> class on a field trip to the local wind farm... "How about an electric
> van/suv/jeep?"... our class could convert a vehicle that could be used
> for their tours. In return our program would receive the financial
> support to complete the conversion.  It's one of those win-win situations
> where everyone involved has something to gain.

Wow; it does sound like a great project!

> Can anyone recommend some good candidate conversion vehicles?

Can you be a little more specific on the requirements? Exactly how many
passengers does it need to carry? What kind of van are they using now?
What speed do they have to drive at?

This should be an easy conversion. The 8-mile range is tiny, and the
3000 ft. elevation change doesn't really matter much because you'll come
back down to the same altitude at the end. Include regenerative braking,
and you'll get back about half the excess power you used going up on the
way back down.

It would be fun to do something like the SolarVan built in the UK. He
had a little van with solar cells on the roof and a quickly erectable
wind generator. Since this vehicle sits so much of the time, these alone
might be sufficient to keep it charged!

So, I'd say you start with an ICE vehicle that they consider ideal for
their tours, and then convert it.

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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Re: EV For Wind Farm Tour

Peter VanDerWal
In reply to this post by martin emde-2
Unless my math is wrong, that works out to an average slope of 14%.  You
might be able to make the trip up (and coast or regen back down), but you
probably won't be able to go faster than 10-15 mph.
If you use Lead-Acid batteries and only make one trip every month or so
(like you indicated) then the batteries will perpetually be in an
"un-exercised" state which will reduce their available capacity.

Considering the cost of building the vehicle for the very few trips it
will ever see (maybe 40 trips, 160 miles, before the batteries die of old
age) this doesn't seem like an appropriate use of EV technology.

> Greetings all,
>
> I teach an EV conversion course at a high school on Maui.  We are
> currently
> working on our second conversion.  Just recently we took our class on a
> field trip to the local wind farm (Kaheawa Wind Power
> http://www.kaheawa.com/kwp/ ) which consists of 20 turbines @ 1.5 MW each
> located on the slopes of West Maui.  As we ascended the mountain in a
> large,
> gas hungry van, the students immediately suggested to our guide a
> "greener"
> approach to the tour.  "How about an electric van/suv/jeep?"  Following
> the
> tour we talked a bit more about some sort of partnership with the company
> in
> which our class could convert a vehicle that could be used for their
> tours.
> In return our program would receive the financial support to complete the
> conversion.  It's one of those win-win situations where everyone involved
> has something to gain.  So here's my question:  Can anyone recommend some
> good candidate conversion vehicles for this specific application?  The
> minimum requirements are that it must be able to carry a full load of
> passengers up a 4 mile gravel road with a 3000 ft. elevation gain (17% max
> grade) on a single charge.  The vehicle would do no more than one such
> tour
> per day so it could be charged over night.  In fact they currently do no
> more that 6 tours per year.  The vehicle should seat at least 4 including
> the driver yet must be able to carry the max number of passengers that it
> was designed for.  It does not have to be 4WD yet that would be a plus.
> The
> brakes must obviously be capable of bringing the passengers back down the
> mountain safely.  If you know of the perfect vehicle please let us know.
> Also, what components would you use in terms of motor (size) and
> controller.  At this point we are thinking lead-acid yet a lithium pack
> may
> be an option.  It turns our that the wind farm will be installing a 1MWhr
> backup battery at their site in the next few weeks to do some energy
> storage
> testing.  Perhaps this technology will lend itself to an EV.  We have not
> discussed any of the liability issues as of yet as that will surely enter
> into the equation.  Any advice or insight is appreciated.
>
> Martin Emde
> www.seaburyhall.org/engineering
> http://www.evalbum.com/1209
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


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Re: EV For Wind Farm Tour

Mike Willmon-3
In reply to this post by martin emde-2
How about Jukka's "Green Monster"
http://www.evalbum.com/1009
:-)

I suspect you'd have to implement a form of regen with an (big) external
load the rate of dissipation which can be controlled.  That or an air
impellor similar to what is on an erg rowing machine.   You don't want to
charge you batteries faster than what they can accept.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of martin emde
> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 4:54 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: [EVDL] EV For Wind Farm Tour
>
> Greetings all,
>
> I teach an EV conversion course at a high school on Maui.  We are
> currently
> working on our second conversion.  Just recently we took our class on a
> field trip to the local wind farm (Kaheawa Wind Power
> http://www.kaheawa.com/kwp/ ) which consists of 20 turbines @ 1.5 MW
> each
> located on the slopes of West Maui.  As we ascended the mountain in a
> large,
> gas hungry van, the students immediately suggested to our guide a
> "greener"
> approach to the tour.  "How about an electric van/suv/jeep?"  Following
> the
> tour we talked a bit more about some sort of partnership with the
> company in
> which our class could convert a vehicle that could be used for their
tours.

> In return our program would receive the financial support to complete
> the
> conversion.  It's one of those win-win situations where everyone involved
> has something to gain.  So here's my question:  Can anyone recommend
> some
> good candidate conversion vehicles for this specific application?  The
> minimum requirements are that it must be able to carry a full load of
> passengers up a 4 mile gravel road with a 3000 ft. elevation gain (17%
> max
> grade) on a single charge.  The vehicle would do no more than one such
> tour
> per day so it could be charged over night.  In fact they currently do no
> more that 6 tours per year.  The vehicle should seat at least 4 including
> the driver yet must be able to carry the max number of passengers that it
> was designed for.  It does not have to be 4WD yet that would be a plus.
> The
> brakes must obviously be capable of bringing the passengers back down
> the
> mountain safely.  If you know of the perfect vehicle please let us know.
> Also, what components would you use in terms of motor (size) and
> controller.  At this point we are thinking lead-acid yet a lithium pack
may

> be an option.  It turns our that the wind farm will be installing a 1MWhr
> backup battery at their site in the next few weeks to do some energy
> storage
> testing.  Perhaps this technology will lend itself to an EV.  We have not
> discussed any of the liability issues as of yet as that will surely enter
> into the equation.  Any advice or insight is appreciated.
>
> Martin Emde
> www.seaburyhall.org/engineering
> http://www.evalbum.com/1209
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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Re: EV For Wind Farm Tour

Mike Shipway
In reply to this post by David Sharpe
Regen may not be a "must".
It would depend on the exact nature of the climb.
If it is a steady uphill grade from the garage to the top of the
mountain, then all you'd need to get back down would be good brakes
and enough juice to get it rolling at the top.
Perhaps a little extra at the bottom to get to the charging station.
I've coasted (read "ran out of gas") nearly 2 miles down 800 foot drop
in New York State, and I'm sure that mountains in Maui are more
impressive than that.

BTW, can you give us contact info for this wind farm tour?
I'm working on a new telescope* which is going up on Haleakala, Maui,
and so I may be in Maui come summer.

Mike-

* http://pan-starrs.ifa.hawaii.edu/public/

On Feb 11, 2008 9:19 PM, David Sharpe <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Your EV must have regen because of the elevation changes. I suggest an AC
> drive or failing that a compound motor (Kostov). Praps they will let you
> charge on site. You could do a topographical survey of the rout indicating
> distances & vertical changes. Will the EV do other trips?
> I cant offer advice about a suitable van or 4wd as Im in Australia and dont
> know what subject vehs you have there.
> Regards
> David Sharpe
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "martin emde" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 12:53 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] EV For Wind Farm Tour
>
>
> > Greetings all,
> >
> > I teach an EV conversion course at a high school on Maui.  We are
> > currently
> > working on our second conversion.  Just recently we took our class on a
> > field trip to the local wind farm (Kaheawa Wind Power
> > http://www.kaheawa.com/kwp/ ) which consists of 20 turbines @ 1.5 MW each
> > located on the slopes of West Maui.  As we ascended the mountain in a
> > large,
> > gas hungry van, the students immediately suggested to our guide a
> > "greener"
> > approach to the tour.  "How about an electric van/suv/jeep?"  Following
> > the
> > tour we talked a bit more about some sort of partnership with the company
> > in
> > which our class could convert a vehicle that could be used for their
> > tours.
> > In return our program would receive the financial support to complete the
> > conversion.  It's one of those win-win situations where everyone involved
> > has something to gain.  So here's my question:  Can anyone recommend some
> > good candidate conversion vehicles for this specific application?  The
> > minimum requirements are that it must be able to carry a full load of
> > passengers up a 4 mile gravel road with a 3000 ft. elevation gain (17% max
> > grade) on a single charge.  The vehicle would do no more than one such
> > tour
> > per day so it could be charged over night.  In fact they currently do no
> > more that 6 tours per year.  The vehicle should seat at least 4 including
> > the driver yet must be able to carry the max number of passengers that it
> > was designed for.  It does not have to be 4WD yet that would be a plus.
> > The
> > brakes must obviously be capable of bringing the passengers back down the
> > mountain safely.  If you know of the perfect vehicle please let us know.
> > Also, what components would you use in terms of motor (size) and
> > controller.  At this point we are thinking lead-acid yet a lithium pack
> > may
> > be an option.  It turns our that the wind farm will be installing a 1MWhr
> > backup battery at their site in the next few weeks to do some energy
> > storage
> > testing.  Perhaps this technology will lend itself to an EV.  We have not
> > discussed any of the liability issues as of yet as that will surely enter
> > into the equation.  Any advice or insight is appreciated.
> >
> > Martin Emde
> > www.seaburyhall.org/engineering
> > http://www.evalbum.com/1209
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



--
Michael Shipway
[hidden email]
Skype: mike.shipway
AIM: catbusmike
YIM: catbusmike

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Re: EV For Wind Farm Tour

Chuck Homic
In reply to this post by Peter VanDerWal
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Considering the cost of building the vehicle for the very few trips it
> will ever see (maybe 40 trips, 160 miles, before the batteries die of old
> age) this doesn't seem like an appropriate use of EV technology.
>  
Maybe not as a vehicle, but I think the main purpose is as an
educational tool.  The EV I'm building (or would build if the
temperature ever got above 20) will never be practical, but I'm building
it for fun and education and as a political statement.  Then again, I
think if/when gasoline gets to $6, I'll be winning financially, too.  
(If it does, I'll have to start on an elec minivan...)

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Re: EV For Wind Farm Tour

EVDL Administrator
In reply to this post by Peter VanDerWal
On 12 Feb 2008 at 1:13, Peter VanDerWal wrote:

> Considering the cost of building the vehicle for the very few trips it
> will ever see (maybe 40 trips, 160 miles, before the batteries die of old age)
> this doesn't seem like an appropriate use of EV technology.

There are other factors operating here.  That said, how about something like
this?

http://www.brusa.biz/news/news.php?l_sel=2&idm=4&idk=9

I know, I know, it's a little more work to set up.  ;-)

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: EV For Wind Farm Tour

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by Peter VanDerWal
Peter VanDerWal wrote:

> Unless my math is wrong, that works out to an average slope of 14%.
> You might be able to make the trip up (and coast or regen back down),
>  but you probably won't be able to go faster than 10-15 mph. If you
> use Lead-Acid batteries and only make one trip every month or so
> (like you indicated) then the batteries will perpetually be in an
> "un-exercised" state which will reduce their available capacity.
>
> Considering the cost of building the vehicle for the very few trips
> it will ever see (maybe 40 trips, 160 miles, before the batteries die
> of old age) this doesn't seem like an appropriate use of EV
> technology.

It sounds a lot like a job for UPS batteries. They spend almost all
their life on float, and are only occasionally asked to deliver very
high currents for 10-15 minutes. If you get the right batteries, and a
smart enough charger not to blindly cook them to an early death, they
should work out fine.

For example, we bought a bunch of used Hawker SBS60 AGM batteries for
our BEST class about 10 years ago. They are built for UPS use. They were
already 4 years old when we got them, and we used them for 6 more years
before misuse and attrition took their toll.

Perhaps the vehicle could be built as a big rolling UPS, able to provide
power for whatever emergency use was necessary.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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Re: EV For Wind Farm Tour

martin emde-2
In reply to this post by Lee Hart
Currently they rent vans whenever they give a tour.  Since the size of any
given tour will vary they don't really have a specific number of
passengers.  If the tour consisted of more than the EV could handle they
would simply rent whatever additional vehicles they needed.  The goal for
them on this collaboration is to demonstrate all the positives of their
project.  In addition to providing Maui with 10% of their power through wind
they have also been very proactive in reintroducing native plants and
species to the area and educating the public on renewable energy.  Having a
dedicated EV for tour purposes would simply strengthen their good standing
in the community.  The goal for our school in the partnership is to enhance
the students educational experience.  So it's really of no concern to us
whether an EV is the most practical means to get the people up the hill.  We
also suggested an electric tram however that's a bit beyond their scope
unless of course they decide to go into the tour business as well - the view
from the top is spectacular.

More on the requirements then.  The speed of ascent would range anywhere
from 5 to 20 mph.  They are also interested in building a solar garage
outfitted with PV's to charge the car.  Just another way to demonstrate
what's possible.  I think maybe wiring an outlet at the base of one of the
wind turbine towers would also look nice.

>From the responses it seems that there are a bunch of options for the
conversion.  We would like it to have a standard transmission as this is
what we are used to working with.  I see a problem however in locating a
van/suv with a manual transmission.  Maybe a VW microbus or vanagon with
suped-up brakes?

Martin



On Feb 11, 2008 7:18 PM, Lee Hart <[hidden email]> wrote:

> martin emde wrote:
> > I teach an EV conversion course at a high school on Maui... we took our
> > class on a field trip to the local wind farm... "How about an electric
> > van/suv/jeep?"... our class could convert a vehicle that could be used
> > for their tours. In return our program would receive the financial
> > support to complete the conversion.  It's one of those win-win
> situations
> > where everyone involved has something to gain.
>
> Wow; it does sound like a great project!
>
> > Can anyone recommend some good candidate conversion vehicles?
>
> Can you be a little more specific on the requirements? Exactly how many
> passengers does it need to carry? What kind of van are they using now?
> What speed do they have to drive at?
>
> This should be an easy conversion. The 8-mile range is tiny, and the
> 3000 ft. elevation change doesn't really matter much because you'll come
> back down to the same altitude at the end. Include regenerative braking,
> and you'll get back about half the excess power you used going up on the
> way back down.
>
> It would be fun to do something like the SolarVan built in the UK. He
> had a little van with solar cells on the roof and a quickly erectable
> wind generator. Since this vehicle sits so much of the time, these alone
> might be sufficient to keep it charged!
>
> So, I'd say you start with an ICE vehicle that they consider ideal for
> their tours, and then convert it.
>
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
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Re: EV For Wind Farm Tour

Doug Weathers

On Feb 12, 2008, at 7:00 PM, martin emde wrote:
> We
> also suggested an electric tram however that's a bit beyond their scope
> unless of course they decide to go into the tour business as well -
> the view
> from the top is spectacular.

Perhaps a cable car (aerial tramway) instead of a tram?  Bob Rice will
jump in here and suggest a funicular, I reckon.

The Sandia Peak Tramway in Albuquerque goes a distance of 2.7 miles.  
They manage to make it profitable, but there's a ski resort and
restaurant up there.

<http://www.sandiapeak.com/index.php?page=tramway>

> Maybe a VW microbus or vanagon with
> suped-up brakes?

I was going to suggest this vehicle myself.

Along with the souped-up brakes, I think the previous suggestions of
using regen are worth listening to.  Especially if you're used to the
manual transmission - you're probably used to using engine braking to
slow down on the downhill trip.

You could do an AC system, or put a generator on the tailshaft of the
main motor on a standard DC conversion.

There's a beautiful VW microbus in the EVAlbum with an AC compressor on
the tailshaft, which he uses for regen.  You can get some ideas from
how to put in a bigger generator from the pictures.  Lots of room.

<http://www.evalbum.com/384>

If you want a newer or bigger vehicle but are worried about the
automatic tranny, you could probably design a vehicle with a
fixed-ratio gearbox and a big motor or two.  Your top speed is low so
you don't need to worry about overspeeding the motor as much as you
would with a freeway-capable EV.  Get a Zilla controller for the big
amps needed to climb the hill.  (I think there was a recent thread
about this concept.  Lee?)

There was a thread regarding converting a Mercedes-Benz/Dodge Sprinter
van a year or so ago.  Those are roomy and would make a good tour
vehicle.  Item number 220200557701 on eBay is an example.  Of course,
bigger=heavier=more expensive EV.

If the vehicle normally charges at the bottom of the mountain, you can
safely use regen.  If it normally charges at the top, then the
batteries will be full on the way down and you can't safely regen.  You
might just use braking resistors in that case.  BIG ones!

Or a water heater tank.  If the vehicle weighs 4000 lbs and is 3000
feet high, then (if my math is right) there's enough potential energy
in it to bring about 14 gallons of water to a boil.  Maybe you could
leave the radiator system intact and have it get rid of the
regen-generated heat?   (Not an option with a microbus, though.)

--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://www.gdunge.com/

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Re: EV For Wind Farm Tour

Josh and Jenifer
In reply to this post by martin emde-2
how hard would it be if you installed a manual tranny in a van with
automatic if it were used clutchless?  You would probably only use one or
two gears anyway.  I have been thinking about this for an S-10 with an
automatic tranny,  just get a manual, cut hole for shift lever, and you have
a large brake petal, and can use a truck that may not otherwise be used.
just a thought.


----- Original Message -----
From: "martin emde" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 9:00 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV For Wind Farm Tour



> what we are used to working with.  I see a problem however in locating a
> van/suv with a manual transmission.  Maybe a VW microbus or vanagon with
> suped-up brakes?
>

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Re: EV For Wind Farm Tour

Roy LeMeur
In reply to this post by martin emde-2


When I saw the requirements of this vehicle, the first thing that crossed my mind was the possibility of making it into a solar/wind-assisted mobile power station.

First, as others have mentioned, I would go with the type of vehicle that the wind farm folks prefer. I am partial to old electric Land Rovers but they may not be.

While you _could_ pull this off with entry-level components, it seems to have the potential of being barely adequate and prone to having battery issues. A Curtis controller and a bunch of flooded Trojans would be pretty lackluster (and heavy and slow not to mention an overloaded braking system).

This project could be good for getting sponsorship from the needed component manufacturers. If you could get a free Lithium battery pack with BMS and an AC Propulsion drive system, you would already be most of the way there cost-wise.

With the right component set, this vehicle could easily "do it all".

The ultimate IMHO would be the AC Propulsion AC-150 system. It is already built to serve out-of-the-box as an AC power station with Vehicle to Grid interface ready to go including cycling and maintaining the batteries. It integrates the charger, DC-DC, main contactors, and provides fully adjustable regen all in one package. This page is a short overview- http://www.acpropulsion.com/technology/gen2.htm

Lithium batteries? Whoever you can get to sponsor may not be the optimum for the application, but it would sure reduce the cost. As many as you can reasonably get in there would help.

Then, almost goes without saying, since it _is_ a wind farm, a small marine-type wind generator (for use while parked) that can be folded up or down attached, or attachable to, the vehicle. This one comes to mind- http://www.etaengineering.com/windpower/air-x_marine.shtml

To top it off, some Uni-Solar PV panels like these over the roof area- http://www.scsolar.com/UniSolar.html

Just some ideas.

Roy


~~~~~~


Roy LeMeur

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Re: EV For Wind Farm Tour

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by martin emde-2
From: martin emde <[hidden email]>
> Since the size of any given tour will vary they don't really have a
> specific number of passengers.  If the tour consisted of more than the
> EV could handle they would simply rent whatever additional vehicles
> they needed...
>
> More on the requirements then. The speed of ascent would range anywhere
> from 5 to 20 mph...

The variable number of people and the slow speed makes me think of something like a train but without rails. In my region, it is common to have "hayrides" -- a farm tractor pulling one or more passenger-carrying trailers. They add or remove trailers depending on the number of passengers. Even my little ElecTrak electric garden tractor could pull 4 people up that hill at 5 mph. Maybe convert a bit a bit bigger tractor into an EV?

Because of the hill, you'd need a failsafe method of locking the trailer's brakes; something like air brakes that automatically go on if pressure is lost.

The only thing new is the history you don't know yet. -- Harry Truman
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

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Re: EV For Wind Farm Tour

Andrew Kane-2
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator
      Hi David, your post reminded me of this technology:

www.jpods.com

while it's not directly applicable to the problem at hand (lacking
BRUSA's "gear motor" it would likely be appropriate for only small
grades) it is nonetheless food for thought. Apologies if you've seen
it before.

On Feb 12, 2008 8:31 AM, EVDL Administrator <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 12 Feb 2008 at 1:13, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
> > Considering the cost of building the vehicle for the very few trips it
> > will ever see (maybe 40 trips, 160 miles, before the batteries die of old age)
> > this doesn't seem like an appropriate use of EV technology.
>
> There are other factors operating here.  That said, how about something like
> this?
>
> http://www.brusa.biz/news/news.php?l_sel=2&idm=4&idk=9
>
> I know, I know, it's a little more work to set up.  ;-)
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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Re: EV For Wind Farm Tour

cowtown
In reply to this post by martin emde-2
> There are other factors operating here.  That said, how about something like
> this?
>
> http://www.brusa.biz/news/news.php?l_sel=2&idm=4&idk=9
>
> I know, I know, it's a little more work to set up.  ;-)

I'm sure everything BRUSA makes is well worth the money, but I had the  
impression something more basic (and cheaper) was wanted here!  
Amusement park parking lot trams seem the vest fit, adding non-powered  
"cars" as needed, or just one of the larger golf cars [e.g. -  
http://www.vantagevehicles.com/default.php?ContentID=2]. There are  
enough golf courses on the island for there to be plenty of this size  
available - might even find a cheap one with a dead ICE powertrain!  
Soop it up for the grade with a high-current SepEx drive and it will  
regen down to a crawl (and better brakes would be for just-in-case).

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Re: EV For Wind Farm Tour

Tom S.
In reply to this post by martin emde-2

Hi Martin,

We have an electric car that could fit your needs, you can see it at electricevette.com  Only in a 4seat jeep. Check it out.

Tom Sines
-----Original Message-----

>From: martin emde <[hidden email]>
>Sent: Feb 12, 2008 9:00 PM
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV For Wind Farm Tour
>
>Currently they rent vans whenever they give a tour.  Since the size of any
>given tour will vary they don't really have a specific number of
>passengers.  If the tour consisted of more than the EV could handle they
>would simply rent whatever additional vehicles they needed.  The goal for
>them on this collaboration is to demonstrate all the positives of their
>project.  In addition to providing Maui with 10% of their power through wind
>they have also been very proactive in reintroducing native plants and
>species to the area and educating the public on renewable energy.  Having a
>dedicated EV for tour purposes would simply strengthen their good standing
>in the community.  The goal for our school in the partnership is to enhance
>the students educational experience.  So it's really of no concern to us
>whether an EV is the most practical means to get the people up the hill.  We
>also suggested an electric tram however that's a bit beyond their scope
>unless of course they decide to go into the tour business as well - the view
>from the top is spectacular.
>
>More on the requirements then.  The speed of ascent would range anywhere
>from 5 to 20 mph.  They are also interested in building a solar garage
>outfitted with PV's to charge the car.  Just another way to demonstrate
>what's possible.  I think maybe wiring an outlet at the base of one of the
>wind turbine towers would also look nice.
>
>>From the responses it seems that there are a bunch of options for the
>conversion.  We would like it to have a standard transmission as this is
>what we are used to working with.  I see a problem however in locating a
>van/suv with a manual transmission.  Maybe a VW microbus or vanagon with
>suped-up brakes?
>
>Martin
>
>
>
>On Feb 11, 2008 7:18 PM, Lee Hart <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> martin emde wrote:
>> > I teach an EV conversion course at a high school on Maui... we took our
>> > class on a field trip to the local wind farm... "How about an electric
>> > van/suv/jeep?"... our class could convert a vehicle that could be used
>> > for their tours. In return our program would receive the financial
>> > support to complete the conversion.  It's one of those win-win
>> situations
>> > where everyone involved has something to gain.
>>
>> Wow; it does sound like a great project!
>>
>> > Can anyone recommend some good candidate conversion vehicles?
>>
>> Can you be a little more specific on the requirements? Exactly how many
>> passengers does it need to carry? What kind of van are they using now?
>> What speed do they have to drive at?
>>
>> This should be an easy conversion. The 8-mile range is tiny, and the
>> 3000 ft. elevation change doesn't really matter much because you'll come
>> back down to the same altitude at the end. Include regenerative braking,
>> and you'll get back about half the excess power you used going up on the
>> way back down.
>>
>> It would be fun to do something like the SolarVan built in the UK. He
>> had a little van with solar cells on the roof and a quickly erectable
>> wind generator. Since this vehicle sits so much of the time, these alone
>> might be sufficient to keep it charged!
>>
>> So, I'd say you start with an ICE vehicle that they consider ideal for
>> their tours, and then convert it.
>>
>> --
>> Ring the bells that still can ring
>> Forget the perfect offering
>> There is a crack in everything
>> That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
>> --
>> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


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Re: EV For Wind Farm Tour

gottdi
In reply to this post by martin emde-2
Use the Micro and since your speeds won't be high I'd say the stock  
brakes would be fine. You could also use a SepEx motor and have regen  
with it. I am currently in the market for a decent VW Micro Bus,  
Double Cab or Panel Van. Nothing newer than a 70. The Vanagon is  
heavy. I am sure it would work as many here convert S-10 Trucks.  
Can't be much heavier.


Pete  :  )
On Feb 12, 2008, at 6:00 PM, martin emde wrote:

> Maybe a VW microbus

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