EV-cause promotional signage

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EV-cause promotional signage

brucedp5
A couple days ago I was at a higher end grocery store and I was yakking
at a store employee about EVs. He is interested in EVs, but I try not to
talk too long to him because everyone is on camera and I don't want our
chats to get him in trouble. So, I keep it short n sweet.

He mentioned a couple info points. One was he had seen Nissan Leaf TV
ads on the morning news (SF Bay area, either Channel 4 or 5). I had
already posted about that Nissan is now doing more advertizing of the
leaf
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-2013-Nissan-Leaf-TV-Ad-Selling-Electric-Car-Fun-Finally-video-tp4661980.html
EVLN: 2013 Nissan Leaf TV Ad Selling Electric-Car Fun, Finally! (video)
so he saw the TV ads I have been hoping to see (I do not watch that much
TV as I usually have my nose searching to root out EV newswires).

He also mentioned that he did not know that the Volt was not an Electric
Car. We had a few sentences about that where I let him quote was the
Volt ads told him, and then I gently let him know: the Volt has an
engine, it burns gas when it thinks it is needed, an EV does not burn
gas, the Volt is a plug in hybrid (I did not get into the nitty-gritty
of what type of pih - he is not there, ... yet).

This tells me, though he is interested, perhaps more than most people
about plugins, his information comes from the befuddled media that has
left him with a jumble of convoluted confusion.
? It is any wonder no ones knows anything about EVs ?


Later, I was over at a local Hospital parking structure and while I was
admiring the two iMiev EVs their security gets to toot around in, all
the people going right by them have no idea that they are Electric.
Those people that were coming back from an appointment that had
body-language that said to me I might be able to ask them a quickie
question, I asked if they knew those were Electric. They did not. One
woman said, "and I walked right by them when I went in. Hmm, that is
interesting ... so these are out now? ..." I knew I would not be able to
give her the whole spiel, so I answered with yes and a nice EVgrin
smile.

Later, I thought, so OK, we have already cajoled and prodded Automakers
to do more plugin advertizing. And they seem to just be starting to do
more. But what can Jane and Joe Q Public do on their own to get the
message across that the public now has a choice in what they drive?

I thought OK how many ice are driving around with signage on the sides
of their vehicle advertising this or that? Even though I may not be
driving an EV at this moment, does not mean I can not use my available
vehicle body space to advertize for the EV-cause.

I was thinking along the lines of one of those soft plastic signs that
have magnets in them so that they are easy to affix to a vehicle, and
can be removed if needed. One vendor I found is
http://www.esigns.com/magnetic-signs/

What do people think of the idea, and what the wording should be?

Example sign:

Electric Vehicles are on sale now: Nissan Leaf,
Mishubishi iMiev, Ford Focus, Honda Fit, Tesla-S,
+more. Go take a test drive and try one out.
There are plenty of public charging available, see
recargo.com


Your comments and views are requested.

{brucedp.150m.com}

--
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                          wherever you are

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Re: EV-cause promotional signage

damon henry
Hey Bruce,
Back in the days when you had an EV did you ever power it from a genset?  Did it instantly become not electric once you did that?  Although technically you are correct, the volt is a plugin hybrid, if I could have any EV I wanted  right now, the volt is at the top of my list.  It's got more EV range than any of the EV's I've built :)  If I bought one I would definitely consider it an EV, and it would rarely use gasoline, but I would be happy to have that ability when I needed it.  It makes a much better EV to drive from here to Hood River than the Red Beastie with a cobbled together genset and bad boy charger like Wayland used back in the day.
I wouldn't go out of my way trying to teach people that the Volt is not an EV, after all it runs on electricity.  It may be electricity collected from the sun or made by burning coal, or natural gas, or gasoline, or any of the other ways that electricity can be made... so even though it is a hybrid, for me it is enough of an EV that I will always consider it one.
damon

> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2013 15:09:52 -0700
> Subject: [EVDL] EV-cause promotional signage
>

> He also mentioned that he did not know that the Volt was not an Electric
> Car. We had a few sentences about that where I let him quote was the
> Volt ads told him, and then I gently let him know: the Volt has an
> engine, it burns gas when it thinks it is needed, an EV does not burn
> gas, the Volt is a plug in hybrid (I did not get into the nitty-gritty
> of what type of pih - he is not there, ... yet).
>

     
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Re: EV-cause promotional signage

SLPinfo.org
Damon,

I concur wholeheartedly.  If I had the money, I'd buy a Volt tomorrow.  For
now my lead-sled S10 conversion will have to do.

As much as I would like to have everyone driving 100% electric tomorrow, it
would not be practical.  Despite lots of recent progress on many fronts we
lack.the charging, parts, and repair infrastructure, not to mention the OEM
capacity.  Yes they burn carbon, but to my mind the Volt (and other plugin
hybrids) represent a good transitional step.  They will teach hesitant ICE
drivers about the joys of EVs while allaying their fears about range. They
will educate ICE mechanics, salesman, and dealers about electric drive
systems, while the ICE components will calm their fears abour job security.

Peter Flipsen Jr
 On Mar 27, 2013 7:50 PM, "damon henry" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hey Bruce,
> Back in the days when you had an EV did you ever power it from a genset?
>  Did it instantly become not electric once you did that?  Although
> technically you are correct, the volt is a plugin hybrid, if I could have
> any EV I wanted  right now, the volt is at the top of my list.  It's got
> more EV range than any of the EV's I've built :)  If I bought one I would
> definitely consider it an EV, and it would rarely use gasoline, but I would
> be happy to have that ability when I needed it.  It makes a much better EV
> to drive from here to Hood River than the Red Beastie with a cobbled
> together genset and bad boy charger like Wayland used back in the day.
> I wouldn't go out of my way trying to teach people that the Volt is not an
> EV, after all it runs on electricity.  It may be electricity collected from
> the sun or made by burning coal, or natural gas, or gasoline, or any of the
> other ways that electricity can be made... so even though it is a hybrid,
> for me it is enough of an EV that I will always consider it one.
> damon
>
> > From: [hidden email]
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2013 15:09:52 -0700
> > Subject: [EVDL] EV-cause promotional signage
> >
>
> > He also mentioned that he did not know that the Volt was not an Electric
> > Car. We had a few sentences about that where I let him quote was the
> > Volt ads told him, and then I gently let him know: the Volt has an
> > engine, it burns gas when it thinks it is needed, an EV does not burn
> > gas, the Volt is a plug in hybrid (I did not get into the nitty-gritty
> > of what type of pih - he is not there, ... yet).
> >
>
>
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Re: EV-cause promotional signage

John O'Connor
I agree the volt is a transitional vehicle, (between ice and EV) but doesn't that by definition mean its NOT an EV.

From what I have read and heard, the volt it is a great vehicle and a significant enhancement over the standard Prius, but it's just not an EV.

Calling the Volt an EV just introduces confusion into a subject dominated by traditional ICE manufacturers and reporters that are  to busy/lazy/indifferent to get it right.

I feel the EV community should embrace plug-in hybrids as great transitional vehicles, but make the distinction between a hybrid and an EV. EVs are not inherently better, but they are different.

John

On Mar 27, 2013, at 10:45 PM, "SLPinfo.org" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Damon,
>
> I concur wholeheartedly.  If I had the money, I'd buy a Volt tomorrow.  For
> now my lead-sled S10 conversion will have to do.
>
> As much as I would like to have everyone driving 100% electric tomorrow, it
> would not be practical.  Despite lots of recent progress on many fronts we
> lack.the charging, parts, and repair infrastructure, not to mention the OEM
> capacity.  Yes they burn carbon, but to my mind the Volt (and other plugin
> hybrids) represent a good transitional step.  They will teach hesitant ICE
> drivers about the joys of EVs while allaying their fears about range. They
> will educate ICE mechanics, salesman, and dealers about electric drive
> systems, while the ICE components will calm their fears abour job security.
>
> Peter Flipsen Jr
> On Mar 27, 2013 7:50 PM, "damon henry" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hey Bruce,
>> Back in the days when you had an EV did you ever power it from a genset?
>> Did it instantly become not electric once you did that?  Although
>> technically you are correct, the volt is a plugin hybrid, if I could have
>> any EV I wanted  right now, the volt is at the top of my list.  It's got
>> more EV range than any of the EV's I've built :)  If I bought one I would
>> definitely consider it an EV, and it would rarely use gasoline, but I would
>> be happy to have that ability when I needed it.  It makes a much better EV
>> to drive from here to Hood River than the Red Beastie with a cobbled
>> together genset and bad boy charger like Wayland used back in the day.
>> I wouldn't go out of my way trying to teach people that the Volt is not an
>> EV, after all it runs on electricity.  It may be electricity collected from
>> the sun or made by burning coal, or natural gas, or gasoline, or any of the
>> other ways that electricity can be made... so even though it is a hybrid,
>> for me it is enough of an EV that I will always consider it one.
>> damon
>>
>>> From: [hidden email]
>>> To: [hidden email]
>>> Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2013 15:09:52 -0700
>>> Subject: [EVDL] EV-cause promotional signage
>>
>>> He also mentioned that he did not know that the Volt was not an Electric
>>> Car. We had a few sentences about that where I let him quote was the
>>> Volt ads told him, and then I gently let him know: the Volt has an
>>> engine, it burns gas when it thinks it is needed, an EV does not burn
>>> gas, the Volt is a plug in hybrid (I did not get into the nitty-gritty
>>> of what type of pih - he is not there, ... yet).
>>
>>
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>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
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EV <> pih/phev <> ice

brucedp5
This post was updated on .

I wish damon and peter had answered my post's question, but instead decided to hijack my thread with their off-topic view of how much they like the Volt plugin hybrid. Both of them should know by now how long I have been promoting plugins (which covers both EVs and pih, and since the 1990's).

And that I have to be terse with the amount of words I can use in my posts to describe what I said to the employee (likely too many already think I am way-too verbose as it is). So the next time someone reads something I post and mentally goes off in an emotional tangent with something they picked out, ... count to 100 ... take a deep breath, then remember when it comes to EVs and pih/phevs (like the Volt pih), I got your back (I am for both).

So, if the evdl is going to discuss EVs vs pih then let it be on this thread for that purpose. Remember to keep this on topic, but also lets put a time limit as pih discussions are *OT on the evdl and should be taken offline.

John's post in reply to the above two responses
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EV-cause-promotional-signage-tp4662108p4662117.html
' ... make the distinction between a hybrid and an EV. EVs are not inherently better, but they are different ...'

is close to my points/views. The poor public is so confused over what is what, we, the plugin community have a responsibility to gently help undo all the misinformation that has been spread around.

When the public talks of what they know about plugins, which actually is what they have heard as if it is their own opinion/knowledge, I do not debate them (that is counter productive), but gently herd them into coming to their own conclusion/decision that what is being put into the vehicle to power it (on or off grid electricity, or chemical fuel, or both) is what defines a vehicle's type.

Meaning, though a Volt driver may drive around all the time in Electric-only mode, their vehicle, by design is a plugin hybrid, a blend of both EV and ice. It can neither be called an EV, nor an ice.

When I talk to the public, it has to be in a simple wording that conveys what they can take ownership of without it being too technical (like explaining the minute details of why a Volt is plugin hybrid. i.e.: the employee did not even know what a plugin hybrid was). On the evdl, there are very knowledgeable members that are great at defining down to the smallest detail/delineation of what is what. But to even begin to do that with the public, their eyes would glaze over, roll-back, and soon you lose them (their attention is lost = a bad thing for an EVangel).

...
All the Volt owners I have chatted with like their vehicle, but over 90% say they want more Electric-only range, i.e. 80+ miles. To me, that translates to they want all the benefits of an EV 'and' they want their angst-safety-net of an on-board ice that a plugin hybrid offers/provides. So, Volt and other pih drivers, please do not get defensive when you hear or read words that tell the truth that the love of your life, your pih, is not an EV. It isn't, and be proud of that.

In the case of that employee, I did not have time (because he was on camera - if he talked too long his boss could get on his case), nor was he interested in knowing the full details of EV vs pih. But in other cases when in the public, the person does give me the time and shows the sincere interest in knowing, I liken the difference the common man can easily grasp. I use an analogy:

Chocolate-Chip ice-cream is mostly vanilla ice-cream with some chocolate chips thrown in. It is neither chocolate ice-cream, nor is it vanilla ice-cream, it is both, a hybrid ice-cream. So goes a plugin hybrid. If a customer only eats the few Chocolate-Chips out of their Chocolate-Chip ice-cream, and not the vanilla ice-cream, does not make the Chocolate-Chip ice-cream now chocolate ice-cream? No. It means they chose to eat their Chocolate-Chip ice-cream, in chocolate-only mode.

...
Now the hairy bit, defining what type of plugin hybrid as there are different types of these. From all that I have read and heard from Volt drivers, their on-board ice can drive the vehicle alone, or injunction with the Electric-motor, or be totally off when running in Electric-only mode.

I am going to by-pass discussing a Karma at this time as they seem to have enough woes. But lets look at a new player, the BMW i3 which will have an plugin hybrid option. You can buy an i3 as an EV with a 80+ mile range, or get one with the small on-board ice genset as a plugin series hybrid that has an 80+ mile Electric-only mode.

Their i3 plugin hybrid design is different than a Volt's. If a Volt driver wanted to drive the steep grapevine highway to or from Los Angeles (I-5) or the steep mountains from LA to CO, GM designed their pih to do that with no issues. However, BMW's design uses a lighter, smaller motor-scooter sized ice which is just enough to keep the pih going on less-demanding highways. That means the large amount of weight of an ice to drive the wheels has been exchanged for a lighter genset to pump electricity into the pack
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_i3
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/bmw-i3-electric-city-car-concept-news

Currently, a Taiwan scooter company Kymco is going to build the small ice used for the genset on the i3 plugin option. There are newswires that mention the plugin hybrid genset is not for daily use. Although a lot of this is still pre-release, meaning we will have to wait for the final design limitations, it seems i3's pih gives a better design for those that just want enough ice to cover their angst, but the majority of the time, they will drive their pih in Electric-only mode.

However, since the i3's Electric-only range is nicely about the same as Production EVs, it would be a shame if the BMW i3 did not offer a level-3 charging ability. At this time, it is unclear if the i3 will definitely have a l3 ccs (SAE combo coupler) port. I fear if not, that short-sightedness will hurt their sales as many customers would have liked to have the same l3 quick-charging abilities as the Leaf and iMiev EVs.


{brucedp.150m.com}
...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equals_sign#Not_equal
<> means not-equal-to
...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_hybrid
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Re: EV <> pih/phev <> ice

Hoegberg .


> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 03:21:39 -0700
> Subject: [EVDL] EV <> pih/phev <> ice


"
No.
It means they chose to eat their Chocolate-Chip
ice-cream, in chocolate-only mode."

:-) :-)


/John  
     
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Re: EV <> pih/phev <> ice

SLPinfo.org
In reply to this post by brucedp5
Bruce

My apologies.  Guilty as charged.  I do of course recognize that you, as
much or probably more than most, have our backs.

Peter Flipsen Jr
On Mar 28, 2013 4:21 AM, "Bruce EVangel Parmenter" <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I wish damon and peter had answered my post's question, but instead
> decided to hijack my thread with their off-topic view of how much they
> like the Volt plugin hybrid. Both of them should know by now how long I
> have been promoting plugins (which covers both EVs and pih).
>
> And that I have to be terse with the amount of words I can use in my
> posts to describe what I said to the employee (likely too many already
> think I am way-too verbose as it is). So the next time someone reads
> something I post and mentally goes off in an emotional tangent with
> something they picked out, ... count to 100 ... take a deep breath, then
> remember when it comes to EVs and pih/phevs (like the Volt pih), I got
> your back (I am for both).
>
> So, if the evdl is going to discuss EVs vs pih/phev then let it be on
> this thread for that purpose. Remember to keep this on topic, but also
> lets put a time limit as pih/phev discussions are *OT on the evdl and
> should be taken offline.
>
> John's post in reply to the above two responses
>
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EV-cause-promotional-signage-tp4662108p4662117.html
> ' ... make the distinction between a hybrid and an EV. EVs are not
> inherently better, but they are different ...'
>
> is close to my points/views. The poor public is so confused over what is
> what, we, the plugin community have a responsibility to gently help undo
> all the misinformation that has been spread around.
>
> When the public talks of what they know about plugins, which actually is
> what they have heard as if it is their own opinion/knowledge, I do not
> debate them (that is counter productive), but gently herd them into
> coming to their own conclusion/decision that what is being put into the
> vehicle to power it (on or off grid electricity, or chemical fuel, or
> both) is what defines a vehicle's type.
>
> Meaning, though a Volt driver may drive around all the time in
> Electric-only mode, their vehicle, by design is a plugin hybrid, a blend
> of both EV and ice. It can neither be called an EV, nor an ice.
>
> When I talk to the public, it has to be in a simple wording that conveys
> what they can take ownership of without it being too technical (like
> explaining that the Volt is plugin hybrid. i.e.: the employee did not
> even know what a plugin hybrid was). On the evdl, their are very
> knowledgeable members that are great at defining down to the smallest
> delineation what is what. But to even begin to do that with the public,
> their eyes glaze over, roll-back, and soon you lose them (their
> attention is lost = a bad thing for an EVangel).
>
> ...
> All the Volt owners I have chatted with like their vehicle, but over 90%
> say they want more Electric-only range, i.e. 80+ miles. To me, that
> translates to they want all the benefits of an EV 'and' they want their
> angst safety net of an on-board ice that a plugin hybrid
> offers/provides. So, Volt and other pih drivers, please do not get
> defensive when you hear or read words that tell the truth that the love
> of your life, your pih, is not an EV. It isn't, and be proud of that.
>
> In the case of that employee, I did not have time (because he was on
> camera - if he talked too long his boss could get on his case), nor was
> he interested in knowing the full details of EV vs pih. But in other
> cases when in the public, the person does give me the time and shows the
> sincere interest in knowing, I liken the difference the common man can
> easily grasp. I use an analogy:
>
> Chocolate-Chip ice-cream is mostly vanilla ice-cream with some chocolate
> chips thrown in. It is neither chocolate ice-cream, nor is it vanilla
> ice-cream, it is both, a hybrid ice-cream. So goes a plugin hybrid. If a
> customer only eats the few Chocolate-Chips out of their Chocolate-Chip
> ice-cream, and not the vanilla ice-cream, does not make the
> Chocolate-Chip ice-cream now chocolate ice-cream? No. It means they
> chose to eat their Chocolate-Chip ice-cream, in chocolate-only mode.
>
> ...
> Now the hairy bit, defining what type of plugin hybrid as their are
> different types of these. From all that I have read and heard from Volt
> drivers, their on-board ice can drive the vehicle alone, or injunction
> with the Electric-motor, or be totally off when running in Electric-only
> mode.
>
> I am going to by-pass discussing a Karma at this time as they seem to
> have enough woes. But lets look at a new player, the BMW i3 which will
> have an plugin hybrid option. You can buy an i3 as an EV with a 80+ mile
> range, or get one with the small on-board ice genset as a plugin series
> hybrid that has an 80+ mile Electric-only mode.
>
> Their i3 plugin hybrid design is different than a Volt's. If a Volt
> driver wanted to drive the steep grapevine highway to or from Los
> Angeles (I-5) or the steep mountains from LA to CO, GM designed their
> pih to do that with no issues. However, BMW's design uses a lighter,
> smaller motor-scooter sized ice which is just enough to keep the pih
> going on less-demanding highways. That means the large amount of weight
> of an ice to drive the wheels has been exchanged for a lighter genset to
> pump electricity into the pack
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_i3
> http://www.caranddriver.com/news/bmw-i3-electric-city-car-concept-news
>
> Currently, a Taiwan scooter company Kymco is going to build the small
> ice used for the genset on the i3 plugin option. There are newswires
> that mention the plugin hybrid genset is not for daily use. Although a
> lot of this is still pre-release, meaning we will have to wait for the
> final design limitations, it seems i3's pih gives a better design for
> those that just want enough ice to cover their angst, but the majority
> of the time, they will drive their pih in Electric-only mode.
>
> However, since the i3's Electric-only range is nicely about the same as
> Production EVs, it would be a shame if the BMW i3 did not offer a
> level-3 charging ability. At this time, it is unclear if the i3 will
> definitely have a l3 ccs SAE combo coupler port. I fear if not, that
> short-sightedness will hurt their sales as many customers would have
> liked to have the l3 same quick-charging abilities as the Leaf and iMiev
> EVs.
>
>
> {brucedp.150m.com}
> ...
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equals_sign#Not_equal
> <> means not-equal-to
> ...
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_hybrid
>
> --
> http://www.fastmail.fm - A no graphics, no pop-ups email service
>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
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Re: EV <> pih/phev <> ice

damon henry
In reply to this post by brucedp5
LOL, sorry Bruce, I never quite made it to the bottom of your post to even see there was a question there.   Although I think your sign idea is kind of cool, I also think it would seem a tad odd on a non EV...  Although it would work well on a Chevy Volt :)

I'm still befuddled though as to how making sure people understand the difference between a really good PIH like the Volt and a pure Plugin EV helps the EV cause.  I guess maybe I don't understand your version of the EV cause.  I know that different people have different reasons for loving EV's.  Some think it is just cool technology, many feel it is a much better solution for environmental reasons, others feel the energy independence EV's can provide a country (or even an individual) is a compelling argument etc..  The Volt seems to be a vehicle that falls in line with all those wishes and can be driven as a pure EV so I fail to see why making the distinction is important.  Perhaps you are just a very detail oriented person and the simple fact that there truly is a difference and that people are constantly getting it wrong gets on your nerves.

Or perhaps I just misread your original post and you did not feel compelled to point out the difference it just came up in the course of the conversation...

damon

> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 03:21:39 -0700
> Subject: [EVDL] EV <> pih/phev <> ice
>
> I wish damon and peter had answered my post's question, but instead
> decided to hijack my thread with their off-topic view of how much they
> like the Volt plugin hybrid. Both of them should know by now how long I
> have been promoting plugins (which covers both EVs and pih).
>
> And that I have to be terse with the amount of words I can use in my
> posts to describe what I said to the employee (likely too many already
> think I am way-too verbose as it is). So the next time someone reads
> something I post and mentally goes off in an emotional tangent with
> something they picked out, ... count to 100 ... take a deep breath, then
> remember when it comes to EVs and pih/phevs (like the Volt pih), I got
> your back (I am for both).
>
> So, if the evdl is going to discuss EVs vs pih/phev then let it be on
> this thread for that purpose. Remember to keep this on topic, but also
> lets put a time limit as pih/phev discussions are *OT on the evdl and
> should be taken offline.
>
> John's post in reply to the above two responses
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EV-cause-promotional-signage-tp4662108p4662117.html
> ' ... make the distinction between a hybrid and an EV. EVs are not
> inherently better, but they are different ...'
>
> is close to my points/views. The poor public is so confused over what is
> what, we, the plugin community have a responsibility to gently help undo
> all the misinformation that has been spread around.
>
> When the public talks of what they know about plugins, which actually is
> what they have heard as if it is their own opinion/knowledge, I do not
> debate them (that is counter productive), but gently herd them into
> coming to their own conclusion/decision that what is being put into the
> vehicle to power it (on or off grid electricity, or chemical fuel, or
> both) is what defines a vehicle's type.
>
> Meaning, though a Volt driver may drive around all the time in
> Electric-only mode, their vehicle, by design is a plugin hybrid, a blend
> of both EV and ice. It can neither be called an EV, nor an ice.
>
> When I talk to the public, it has to be in a simple wording that conveys
> what they can take ownership of without it being too technical (like
> explaining that the Volt is plugin hybrid. i.e.: the employee did not
> even know what a plugin hybrid was). On the evdl, their are very
> knowledgeable members that are great at defining down to the smallest
> delineation what is what. But to even begin to do that with the public,
> their eyes glaze over, roll-back, and soon you lose them (their
> attention is lost = a bad thing for an EVangel).
>
> ...
> All the Volt owners I have chatted with like their vehicle, but over 90%
> say they want more Electric-only range, i.e. 80+ miles. To me, that
> translates to they want all the benefits of an EV 'and' they want their
> angst safety net of an on-board ice that a plugin hybrid
> offers/provides. So, Volt and other pih drivers, please do not get
> defensive when you hear or read words that tell the truth that the love
> of your life, your pih, is not an EV. It isn't, and be proud of that.
>
> In the case of that employee, I did not have time (because he was on
> camera - if he talked too long his boss could get on his case), nor was
> he interested in knowing the full details of EV vs pih. But in other
> cases when in the public, the person does give me the time and shows the
> sincere interest in knowing, I liken the difference the common man can
> easily grasp. I use an analogy:
>
> Chocolate-Chip ice-cream is mostly vanilla ice-cream with some chocolate
> chips thrown in. It is neither chocolate ice-cream, nor is it vanilla
> ice-cream, it is both, a hybrid ice-cream. So goes a plugin hybrid. If a
> customer only eats the few Chocolate-Chips out of their Chocolate-Chip
> ice-cream, and not the vanilla ice-cream, does not make the
> Chocolate-Chip ice-cream now chocolate ice-cream? No. It means they
> chose to eat their Chocolate-Chip ice-cream, in chocolate-only mode.
>
> ...
> Now the hairy bit, defining what type of plugin hybrid as their are
> different types of these. From all that I have read and heard from Volt
> drivers, their on-board ice can drive the vehicle alone, or injunction
> with the Electric-motor, or be totally off when running in Electric-only
> mode.
>
> I am going to by-pass discussing a Karma at this time as they seem to
> have enough woes. But lets look at a new player, the BMW i3 which will
> have an plugin hybrid option. You can buy an i3 as an EV with a 80+ mile
> range, or get one with the small on-board ice genset as a plugin series
> hybrid that has an 80+ mile Electric-only mode.
>
> Their i3 plugin hybrid design is different than a Volt's. If a Volt
> driver wanted to drive the steep grapevine highway to or from Los
> Angeles (I-5) or the steep mountains from LA to CO, GM designed their
> pih to do that with no issues. However, BMW's design uses a lighter,
> smaller motor-scooter sized ice which is just enough to keep the pih
> going on less-demanding highways. That means the large amount of weight
> of an ice to drive the wheels has been exchanged for a lighter genset to
> pump electricity into the pack
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_i3
> http://www.caranddriver.com/news/bmw-i3-electric-city-car-concept-news
>
> Currently, a Taiwan scooter company Kymco is going to build the small
> ice used for the genset on the i3 plugin option. There are newswires
> that mention the plugin hybrid genset is not for daily use. Although a
> lot of this is still pre-release, meaning we will have to wait for the
> final design limitations, it seems i3's pih gives a better design for
> those that just want enough ice to cover their angst, but the majority
> of the time, they will drive their pih in Electric-only mode.
>
> However, since the i3's Electric-only range is nicely about the same as
> Production EVs, it would be a shame if the BMW i3 did not offer a
> level-3 charging ability. At this time, it is unclear if the i3 will
> definitely have a l3 ccs SAE combo coupler port. I fear if not, that
> short-sightedness will hurt their sales as many customers would have
> liked to have the l3 same quick-charging abilities as the Leaf and iMiev
> EVs.
>
>
> {brucedp.150m.com}
> ...
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equals_sign#Not_equal
> <> means not-equal-to
> ...
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_hybrid
>
> --
> http://www.fastmail.fm - A no graphics, no pop-ups email service
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
     
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Re: EV <> pih/phev <> ice

John O'Connor
I believe it is important to maintain the distinction because it will turn into a marketing and product differentiation nightmare.

If one makes the argument the volt is an ev because it say the volt it can drive 30 mi? all electric. What about a plug-in-hybrid that only goes 2 miles all electric, I wouldn't want an vehicle that goes 2 miles electric and then goes ICE to be considered an EV.
 
As EVs become more mainstream, marketers and sales people will argue 'hey, forget about that $32,000 (B)EV and try out our $22,000 EV"  (that is actually a Prius type vehicle that can operate in EV mode for short periods and isn't even a plug-in.)

BEV's and Plug-in hybrids are different, and there is no reason to pretend otherwise. It can only be bad for public acceptance of BEV to call the volt or other hybrids EVs

John


Sent from my iPad

On Mar 28, 2013, at 1:11 PM, damon henry <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I know that different people have different reasons for loving EV's.  Some think it is just cool technology, many feel it is a much better solution for environmental reasons, others feel the energy independence EV's can provide a country (or even an individual) is a compelling argument etc..  The Volt seems to be a vehicle that falls in line with all those wishes and can be driven as a pure EV so I fail to see why making the distinction is important.  Perhaps you are just a very detail oriented person and the simple fact that there truly is a difference and that people are constantly getting it wrong gets on your nerves.
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Re: EV <> pih/phev <> ice

Peri Hartman
Frankly, I think people *will* figure it out.  There may be lots of
confusion when reading and listing to marketing hype.  But when someone goes
to test drive or buy a *EV (fill in P, B, etc), they will know whether or
not it takes gas.  And they will decide if the need that "feature" or not.

It's all good to push the education and better inform people.  I just don't
fret about it too much.

Peri

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of JOHN OCONNOR
Sent: 28 March, 2013 5:47 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV <> pih/phev <> ice

I believe it is important to maintain the distinction because it will turn
into a marketing and product differentiation nightmare.

If one makes the argument the volt is an ev because it say the volt it can
drive 30 mi? all electric. What about a plug-in-hybrid that only goes 2
miles all electric, I wouldn't want an vehicle that goes 2 miles electric
and then goes ICE to be considered an EV.
 
As EVs become more mainstream, marketers and sales people will argue 'hey,
forget about that $32,000 (B)EV and try out our $22,000 EV"  (that is
actually a Prius type vehicle that can operate in EV mode for short periods
and isn't even a plug-in.)

BEV's and Plug-in hybrids are different, and there is no reason to pretend
otherwise. It can only be bad for public acceptance of BEV to call the volt
or other hybrids EVs

John


Sent from my iPad

On Mar 28, 2013, at 1:11 PM, damon henry <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I know that different people have different reasons for loving EV's.  Some
think it is just cool technology, many feel it is a much better solution for
environmental reasons, others feel the energy independence EV's can provide
a country (or even an individual) is a compelling argument etc..  The Volt
seems to be a vehicle that falls in line with all those wishes and can be
driven as a pure EV so I fail to see why making the distinction is
important.  Perhaps you are just a very detail oriented person and the
simple fact that there truly is a difference and that people are constantly
getting it wrong gets on your nerves.
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Re: EV-cause promotional signage

Dennis Miles
In reply to this post by John O'Connor
So why can't I refer to a Volt as the hybrid it is; I say, when I am asked
(Often) about GM-Volts. "It is a hybrid combining many of the advantages of
a medium range electric Vehicle, with a gasoline - electric generator for
enhanced range when needed."


On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 11:06 PM, JOHN OCONNOR <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I agree the volt is a transitional vehicle, (between ice and EV) but
> doesn't that by definition mean its NOT an EV.
>
> From what I have read and heard, the volt it is a great vehicle and a
> significant enhancement over the standard Prius, but it's just not an EV.
>
> Calling the Volt an EV just introduces confusion into a subject dominated
> by traditional ICE manufacturers and reporters that are  to
> busy/lazy/indifferent to get it right.
>
> I feel the EV community should embrace plug-in hybrids as great
> transitional vehicles, but make the distinction between a hybrid and an EV.
> EVs are not inherently better, but they are different.
>
> John
>
> On Mar 27, 2013, at 10:45 PM, "SLPinfo.org" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Damon,
> >
> > I concur wholeheartedly.  If I had the money, I'd buy a Volt tomorrow.
>  For
> > now my lead-sled S10 conversion will have to do.
> >
> > As much as I would like to have everyone driving 100% electric tomorrow,
> it
> > would not be practical.  Despite lots of recent progress on many fronts
> we
> > lack.the charging, parts, and repair infrastructure, not to mention the
> OEM
> > capacity.  Yes they burn carbon, but to my mind the Volt (and other
> plugin
> > hybrids) represent a good transitional step.  They will teach hesitant
> ICE
> > drivers about the joys of EVs while allaying their fears about range.
> They
> > will educate ICE mechanics, salesman, and dealers about electric drive
> > systems, while the ICE components will calm their fears abour job
> security.
> >
> > Peter Flipsen Jr
> > On Mar 27, 2013 7:50 PM, "damon henry" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> Hey Bruce,
> >> Back in the days when you had an EV did you ever power it from a genset?
> >> Did it instantly become not electric once you did that?  Although
> >> technically you are correct, the volt is a plugin hybrid, if I could
> have
> >> any EV I wanted  right now, the volt is at the top of my list.  It's got
> >> more EV range than any of the EV's I've built :)  If I bought one I
> would
> >> definitely consider it an EV, and it would rarely use gasoline, but I
> would
> >> be happy to have that ability when I needed it.  It makes a much better
> EV
> >> to drive from here to Hood River than the Red Beastie with a cobbled
> >> together genset and bad boy charger like Wayland used back in the day.
> >> I wouldn't go out of my way trying to teach people that the Volt is not
> an
> >> EV, after all it runs on electricity.  It may be electricity collected
> from
> >> the sun or made by burning coal, or natural gas, or gasoline, or any of
> the
> >> other ways that electricity can be made... so even though it is a
> hybrid,
> >> for me it is enough of an EV that I will always consider it one.
> >> damon
> >>
> >>> From: [hidden email]
> >>> To: [hidden email]
> >>> Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2013 15:09:52 -0700
> >>> Subject: [EVDL] EV-cause promotional signage
> >>
> >>> He also mentioned that he did not know that the Volt was not an
> Electric
> >>> Car. We had a few sentences about that where I let him quote was the
> >>> Volt ads told him, and then I gently let him know: the Volt has an
> >>> engine, it burns gas when it thinks it is needed, an EV does not burn
> >>> gas, the Volt is a plug in hybrid (I did not get into the nitty-gritty
> >>> of what type of pih - he is not there, ... yet).
> >>
> >>
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>


--
Regards,
*     Dennis *(EVprofessor)* Miles*
  *(863)944-9913* (phone noon to midnight E.S.T.)
*    reply to [hidden email]*
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Re: EV-cause promotional signage

EVDL Administrator
On 29 Mar 2013 at 17:45, Dennis Miles wrote:

> So why can't I refer to a Volt as the hybrid it is ...

I don't know.  Did anyone say you can't?

The Volt *is* indeed a true hybrid, unlike the various non-pluggable quasi-
hybrids, which derive all their motive energy from liquid fuel.  The lattter
are really just ICEVs with electric superchargers, IMO.  I don't consider
them genuine hybrids, though I know mine isn't a majority opinion.

I find in my conversations with non-ev-hobbyists that the idea of a true
hybrid like the Volt has a fair bit of traction (no pun intended).  

For years I've argued that 50 or 75 miles of range is plenty for most
people.  However, almost all the "civilians" I talk with don't think it is,
even after I have them total up all the driving they really do.  In their
views, it doesn't matter that EVs can get them to and from work and on all
their routine errands.  Someday they *might* have to drive further than
that, and what then?  This is especially tough to challenge here in the
midwest where charging stations mostly don't exist (at least not yet).

As they see it, their vehicles have to be capable of handling virtually any
possible mission.  When you think about how much they're spending on a
vehicle, you can understand why they might feel that way.  

Maybe I just have unusually well informed friends, but most of them seem
surprisingly knowledgable about this.  They realize almost intuitively that
in a true hybrid, they can burn gasoline if and when the charge runs out.  
That's a powerful tool in gaining EV acceptance for these folks.  It
effectively nullifies the "not enough range" argument.

I suspect that people who buy the Volt will realize after owning it for 5 or
8 years that they've seldom had to run the engine, and will be more ready to
move to full BEVs for their next vehicles.  Let's just hope that the
automakers don't bail on BEVs before that happens.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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Re: EV-cause promotional signage

Cor van de Water
Call the Volt for what it is - a plug-in hybrid...

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email] Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of EVDL Administrator
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 3:21 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV-cause promotional signage

On 29 Mar 2013 at 17:45, Dennis Miles wrote:

> So why can't I refer to a Volt as the hybrid it is ...

I don't know.  Did anyone say you can't?

The Volt *is* indeed a true hybrid, unlike the various non-pluggable
quasi-
hybrids, which derive all their motive energy from liquid fuel.  The
lattter
are really just ICEVs with electric superchargers, IMO.  I don't
consider
them genuine hybrids, though I know mine isn't a majority opinion.

I find in my conversations with non-ev-hobbyists that the idea of a true

hybrid like the Volt has a fair bit of traction (no pun intended).  

For years I've argued that 50 or 75 miles of range is plenty for most
people.  However, almost all the "civilians" I talk with don't think it
is,
even after I have them total up all the driving they really do.  In
their
views, it doesn't matter that EVs can get them to and from work and on
all
their routine errands.  Someday they *might* have to drive further than
that, and what then?  This is especially tough to challenge here in the
midwest where charging stations mostly don't exist (at least not yet).

As they see it, their vehicles have to be capable of handling virtually
any
possible mission.  When you think about how much they're spending on a
vehicle, you can understand why they might feel that way.  

Maybe I just have unusually well informed friends, but most of them seem

surprisingly knowledgable about this.  They realize almost intuitively
that
in a true hybrid, they can burn gasoline if and when the charge runs
out.  
That's a powerful tool in gaining EV acceptance for these folks.  It
effectively nullifies the "not enough range" argument.

I suspect that people who buy the Volt will realize after owning it for
5 or
8 years that they've seldom had to run the engine, and will be more
ready to
move to full BEVs for their next vehicles.  Let's just hope that the
automakers don't bail on BEVs before that happens.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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Re: EV-cause promotional signage

Peri Hartman
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator
Let me put a different perspective.  I have an ICE minivan.  When I go
hiking or have to haul heavy materials, I use it.  For almost everything
else I use the Leaf or bicycle.

Recently I had to pay a large amount for transmission repair on the minivan.
I considered extensively getting rid of it and renting occasionally when I
need it.  Turned out to be impractical.

Consider:
- 6:00am - get up
- 6:30am - go get the vehicle
- 7:00am - get back and load hiking gear
- ... hiking activity
- 8:00pm - return home, unload hiking gear
-        - wash and vac the car (or get charged a cleaning fee)
- 8:30pm - return the vehicle
- 9:00pm - return home.

It's a really long day.  It adds a half hour in the morning and, when I'm
already really beat, an long hour in the evening.  This is my example.  It's
over the edge for me and it's worth having the ICE in spite of the extra
costs - insurance, maintenance, etc.

I'm sure others have their personal reasons too, and if you are single and
have only one vehicle, the Volt looks really attractive.

Peri

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of EVDL Administrator
Sent: 29 March, 2013 3:21 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV-cause promotional signage

...

As they see it, their vehicles have to be capable of handling virtually any
possible mission.  When you think about how much they're spending on a
vehicle, you can understand why they might feel that way.  

...

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: EV-cause promotional signage

John O'Connor
In reply to this post by Dennis Miles
I for one wish everyone would refer to the hybrid that it is.
A minor nit to pick is the comment about the gas generator.
For the longest time GM insisted the volt had a gas generator and only the electric motor powered the drivetrain, but in the end finally admitted that the ice can and infrequently does provide power directly to the wheels.

In the greater scheme of things, not a big deal. But why hide the facts and mislead the public?

John

 

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 29, 2013, at 5:45 PM, Dennis Miles <[hidden email]> wrote:

> So why can't I refer to a Volt as the hybrid it is; I say, when I am asked
> (Often) about GM-Volts. "It is a hybrid combining many of the advantages of
> a medium range electric Vehicle, with a gasoline - electric generator for
> enhanced range when needed."
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Re: EV-cause promotional signage

Rush Dougherty

> In the greater scheme of things, not a big deal. But why hide the facts
and
> mislead the public?


I sure hope that wasn't a serious question....

Rush
www.TucsonEV.com


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Re: EV-cause promotional signage

tomw
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator
If the Volt is a "hybrid" what is the (non-plugin) Prius?  And if you call the Volt "electric", how do you differentiate between it and the Leaf?  I think Bruce has said many times he likes the Volt, he just wants people to differentiate the various technological approaches with the names that have been used for them for many years before GM Marketing decided to redefine things.  

It is easy to see that many people would prefer to have or can only afford one vehicle, and the Volt permits them to drive electric much of the time, but also do longer trips using some gas.  Unlike a Hybrid Electric Vehicle (HEV), A Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle (PHEV) can drive with good performance in all electric mode, but it can also go much further than an Electric Vehicle, which has no ice, so why not indicate that in the name given to the technology?  That is more informative than just calling any combination that makes use of an electric motor an EV.  Things were well-defined before GM introduced the Volt:
EV: only electric motor for propulsion
PHEV: electric motor and ice, can charge from the grid and drive in all-electric mode
HEV: electric motor and ice, cannot charge from the grid, and cannot drive in all-electric mode, or does so poorly due to small size of the electric motor. Uses electric motor as "assist" to ice, so ice can run more efficiently.

That information is lost if you just call everything "electric".  I think that to some people this is an "I'm greener than thou" issue, and to others like me, it is an issue of being more precise and informative in terminology.
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Re: EV-cause promotional signage

Cor van de Water
That is why I suggested to call the Volt for what it is - a plug-in
Hybrid.
The regular Prius is a Hybrid (non-plug-in) as it derives ALL its motive
power from gasoline, only some is stored in a battery for incidental use
and to improve efficiency as well as component reduction (one continuous
engaged gearing can be varied by torque balance between the motors, no
starter, no alternator, ....
Electric vehicles are propelled by electricity, which is often
understood
to mean that they consume electricity that often gets stored onboard for
the trip, but trains and even trolley buses are EVs that are in constant
connection with the electric supply, they stop when disconnected.

Some will call cars with fuel cells "EV" but they are really Hybrids
that consume a primary fuel like for example Hydrogen that gets
converted to Electricity, often backed up in batteries as the "fool"
cell
is so expensive that it pays to minimize its size and only deliver
average
power, while buffering using an additional battery. But this
architecture
is well know - it is called a series Hybrid.

Of course GM is afraid that the Volt may lose its perks, such as HOV
lane
access with single occupant and other benefits, if everyone would really
call it the (plug-in) Hybrid that it is, so they stubbornly continue to
call it an EV, which it really is not, but it fits their agenda.
Comparable to getting important brownie points for "Flex" fuel cars
which typically run exclusively on gasoline, but they are counted
towards fuel efficient cars, even if they are gas guzzling Exploders or
similar SUVs. Let's try to keep the definitions straight on this list,
if needed we can compile a list of vehicles and how we should really
classify them based on their architecture (not marketing).

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email] Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of tomw
Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2013 6:27 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV-cause promotional signage

If the Volt is a "hybrid" what is the (non-plugin) Prius?  And if you
call
the Volt "electric", how do you differentiate between it and the Leaf?
I
think Bruce has said many times he likes the Volt, he just wants people
to
differentiate the various technological approaches with the names that
have
been used for them for many years before GM Marketing decided to
redefine
things.  

It is easy to see that many people would prefer to have or can only
afford
one vehicle, and the Volt permits them to drive electric much of the
time,
but also do longer trips using some gas.  Unlike a Hybrid Electric
Vehicle
(HEV), A Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle (PHEV) can drive with good
performance in all electric mode, but it can also go much further than
an
Electric Vehicle, which has no ice, so why not indicate that in the name
given to the technology?  That is more informative than just calling any
combination that makes use of an electric motor an EV.  Things were
well-defined before GM introduced the Volt:
EV: only electric motor for propulsion
PHEV: electric motor and ice, can charge from the grid and drive in
all-electric mode
HEV: electric motor and ice, cannot charge from the grid, and cannot
drive
in all-electric mode, or does so poorly due to small size of the
electric
motor. Uses electric motor as "assist" to ice, so ice can run more
efficiently.

That information is lost if you just call everything "electric".  I
think
that to some people this is an "I'm greener than thou" issue, and to
others
like me, it is an issue of being more precise and informative in
terminology.




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Nabble.com.
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Re: EV-cause promotional signage

EVDL Administrator
In reply to this post by tomw
On 30 Mar 2013 at 6:27, tomw wrote:

> If the Volt is a "hybrid" what is the (non-plugin) Prius?

Until the automakers (notably Toyota and Honda) claimed it, the term hybrid
had a widely accepted meaning: a vehicle which used both a fueled drive
source and an electrically-powered drive source, normally an ICE and a
motor.  Each of them operated on a different energy source.  The vehicle
could move under the power of either, and sometimes both.  It was understood
that a hybrid vehicle could be driven for a usable distance in full electric
mode.

True hybrids come in two basic "flavors," series and parallel.  The series
hybrid has no mechanical connection between the ICE and the wheels; the ICE
drives a generator which charges the battery and/or supplies electricity to
the drive motor.  The parallel hybrid has the ICE mechanically coupled to
the drivetrain.  

In the past, series hybrid proponents argued that by operating the ICE at a
steady speed (always either on or off), it could be tuned for optimum
efficiency.  In those days before microprocessor ICE control, the varying
load and speed in most ICEVs really hurt efficiency.  However, in the real
world, parallel hybrids (without the conversion losses) usually topped
series hybrids in efficiency.  This is even more true today, with
sophisticated microprocessor ICE control we didn't have in the 1960s and
1970s.  (This might explain why GM quietly abandoned the idea of a SH Volt
to make it a PH.)

An interesting variant of the series hybrid is one in which the APU
(auxiliary power unit) is a fuel cell.  I don't know how it does in
efficiency, compared to other hybrid designs.

You could also argue that e-bikes are human-electric parallel hybrids.

FWIW, the plug-in Prius has elements of both a series and parallel hybrid.  
From what I understand of the Volt, it does too.

Back to the point.  In the late 1990s and early 2000s, Toyota and Honda (and
a few other automakers) co-opted this "greenish" word - "hybrid" for
vehicles that ran solely on petroleum fuel.  This blurred the word's
meaning.

I can't speak for everyone born soon enough to remember the work done with
actual hybrids in the 1960s and 1970s, but I for one get pretty annoyed at
this.  I consider it a form of "greenwashing."

I admit, mIne is a pretty lonely campaign ;-), but I call the Prius and
Insight electrically-supercharged ICEVs.  I think that's pretty descriptive
of what their drive systems do, and of how they attain high fuel efficiency.
I don't consider them true hybrids, and refuse to call them that.

OTOH, the plug-in Prius >is< a true hybrid, if a pretty feeble one.

So my suggestion (which probably very few people are going to adopt) is that
the non-plugin Prius should be called an electrically-supercharged ICEV.  
That's not very convenient, though, and not something that works too well
for ad copy.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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Re: EV-cause promotional signage

tomw
"Until the automakers (notably Toyota and Honda) claimed it, the term hybrid
had a widely accepted meaning: a vehicle which used both a fueled drive
source and an electrically-powered drive source, normally an ICE and a
motor.  Each of them operated on a different energy source.  The vehicle
could move under the power of either, and sometimes both.  It was understood
that a hybrid vehicle could be driven for a usable distance in full electric
mode."

Interesting.  Before my time with EVs.  Could you give some examples?

"So my suggestion (which probably very few people are going to adopt)..."
I think that is a safe bet. :^))
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