EV road tax

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EV road tax

Steve Clunn
Some how I was under the impression that by driving an EV I was saving
the other none EV driving Americans  money . They don't have to pay
for defending my fuel , My fuel don't cause as much of a health
problem , My "engine" doesn't drip oil that finds its way into the
water. Maybe we should tax people who exercise as they won't be sick
as much and there for not be contributing to our hospitals . How about
a tax on any volunteers , anybody that dose anything for free, tax
them. If they charged for there time they would be taxed , Just cause
they Volunteer doesn't mean there time is worth less. How about a
"good Samaritan tax" , you help an old lady  broken down by the side
of the road , She would have had to have a tow truck come , lot of tax
money there lost .  What about a tax on all those " home gardens " .
People growing food in there back yard . There garden is getting the
same sun and rain as the farmers got and since the farmers gets taxed
shouldn't the home gardener. Should we discourage people from moving
in the right direction just because it may cost others that are moving
in the wrong direction more money?.  How about a tax on kids who play
out side instead of watching TV , all that money lost cuzz they didn't
see the TV ads they should have. Maybe to make the people paying gas
tax feel better we could have a sticker on the pump saying " the
dollar you just spent just cost us xx " I don't know the exact cost
but I'll bet its pretty high. Its kind of like taxing trash pickers.
The stuff doesn't go into the land fill , gets recycled so energy is
not being used to make the thing . How would it look it you tried to
pay tax on stuff you pulled out of the garbage .  Yes if enough people
lived off the garbage that others through out to make a difference in
the income tax , then they would have to find a way , but right now
going to the tax collector and saying , I want to pay sales tax on all
this stuff in the bed of my truck that I picked up along side the road
cuzz it ain't right me not paying some kind of tax  is kind of like an
EV driver saying I'd like to pay my share of the gas tax but as I
don't use gas I don't know how. If you think people think EV drivers
are strange now , they will when we hit them with that question.

lets let the sleeping dog lie
if we tax him for not barking he's libel to bit.
Steve Clunn
--
Tomorrows Ride TODAY !
Visit our shop web page at: www.Greenshedconversions.com

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Re: EV road tax

Dennis Miles
Steve, Like we said in the 1970's: "RIGHT ON !"  The Truckers pay a major
premium road tax in most places.And here in Lakeland and Polk County
Florida, and in many other Florida counties we as voters elected and voted
for an additional one cent of sales tax. Now eight years later our roads are
in excellent repair, many have been up-graded, many four way stops are now
traffic signal controlled,  Everyone uses the roads, everyone pays sales
tax, even tourists who are just passing thru pay a small part. In Orlando,
many highways ask for "Tolls" to pay for the road, Lakeland and Tampa each
have one toll road as a route to bypass downtown traffic, they work well,
(Tampa's is so successful a couple of years ago they added another layer on
top of the 4 lanes and put 2 lanes 15 feet above the existing road!  So when
your politicians start talking about extra taxes for EV's, You tell them
everybody uses the roads so it should be a sales tax increase so everybody
pays a fair share. Now I'll climb down off this soapbox that Steve inspired
me to climb onto. "NEXT?" (Remember to keep relevant to equal treatment for
EV and don't go Political. That should go on a different forum.)
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles*   (Director)     *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/>    *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
Phone (863) 944 - 9913
===========================================
On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:45 PM, Steve Clunn <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Some how I was under the impression that by driving an EV I was saving
> the other non EV driving Americans  money . They don't have to pay
> for defending my fuel , My fuel don't cause as much of a health
> problem , My "engine" doesn't drip oil that finds its way into the
> water. Maybe we should tax people who exercise as they won't be sick
> as much and there for not be contributing to our hospitals . How about
> a tax on any volunteers , anybody that dose anything for free, tax
> them. If they charged for there time they would be taxed , Just cause
> they Volunteer doesn't mean there time is worth less. How about a
> "good Samaritan tax" , you help an old lady  broken down by the side
> of the road , She would have had to have a tow truck come , lot of tax
> money there lost .  What about a tax on all those " home gardens " .
> People growing food in their back yard . Their garden is getting the
> same sun and rain as the farmers got and since the farmers gets taxed
> shouldn't the home gardener. Should we discourage people from moving
> in the right direction just because it may cost others that are moving
> in the wrong direction more money?.  How about a tax on kids who play
> out side instead of watching TV , all that money lost cuzz they didn't
> see the TV ads they should have. Maybe to make the people paying gas
> tax feel better we could have a sticker on the pump saying " the
> dollar you just spent just cost us xx " I don't know the exact cost
> but I'll bet its pretty high. Its kind of like taxing trash pickers.
> The stuff doesn't go into the land fill , gets recycled so energy is
> not being used to make the thing . How would it look it you tried to
> pay tax on stuff you pulled out of the garbage .  Yes if enough people
> lived off the garbage that others through out to make a difference in
> the income tax , then they would have to find a way , but right now
> going to the tax collector and saying , I want to pay sales tax on all
> this stuff in the bed of my truck that I picked up along side the road
> cuzz it ain't right me not paying some kind of tax  is kind of like an
> EV driver saying I'd like to pay my share of the gas tax but as I
> don't use gas I don't know how. If you think people think EV drivers
> are strange now , they will when we hit them with that question.
>
> lets let the sleeping dog lie
> if we tax him for not barking he's libel to bite.
> Steve Clunn
> --
> Tomorrows Ride TODAY !
> Visit our shop web page at: www.Greenshedconversions.com
>
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>



--

  Initial demand (computed by extrapolating the reservations for GM Volt and
Nissan Leaf,) shall exceed 200,000 vehicles in 2010 and 2011. However only
50,000 vehicles will be marketed, so a LARGE demand for Nice Newer
Conversions is predicted!
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Re: EV road tax

schwaigerl
In reply to this post by Steve Clunn
Hi Steve,

You really put some thought into the gas tax subject. I enjoyed it and will share it with others. It brings up many interesting points the average person does not consider in the "taxing philosophy."

Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Clunn" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Monday, October 4, 2010 10:45:53 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
Subject: [EVDL] EV road tax

Some how I was under the impression that by driving an EV I was saving
the other none EV driving Americans  money . They don't have to pay
for defending my fuel , My fuel don't cause as much of a health
problem , My "engine" doesn't drip oil that finds its way into the
water. Maybe we should tax people who exercise as they won't be sick
as much and there for not be contributing to our hospitals . How about
a tax on any volunteers , anybody that dose anything for free, tax
them. If they charged for there time they would be taxed , Just cause
they Volunteer doesn't mean there time is worth less. How about a
"good Samaritan tax" , you help an old lady  broken down by the side
of the road , She would have had to have a tow truck come , lot of tax
money there lost .  What about a tax on all those " home gardens " .
People growing food in there back yard . There garden is getting the
same sun and rain as the farmers got and since the farmers gets taxed
shouldn't the home gardener. Should we discourage people from moving
in the right direction just because it may cost others that are moving
in the wrong direction more money?.  How about a tax on kids who play
out side instead of watching TV , all that money lost cuzz they didn't
see the TV ads they should have. Maybe to make the people paying gas
tax feel better we could have a sticker on the pump saying " the
dollar you just spent just cost us xx " I don't know the exact cost
but I'll bet its pretty high. Its kind of like taxing trash pickers.
The stuff doesn't go into the land fill , gets recycled so energy is
not being used to make the thing . How would it look it you tried to
pay tax on stuff you pulled out of the garbage .  Yes if enough people
lived off the garbage that others through out to make a difference in
the income tax , then they would have to find a way , but right now
going to the tax collector and saying , I want to pay sales tax on all
this stuff in the bed of my truck that I picked up along side the road
cuzz it ain't right me not paying some kind of tax  is kind of like an
EV driver saying I'd like to pay my share of the gas tax but as I
don't use gas I don't know how. If you think people think EV drivers
are strange now , they will when we hit them with that question.

lets let the sleeping dog lie
if we tax him for not barking he's libel to bit.
Steve Clunn
--
Tomorrows Ride TODAY !
Visit our shop web page at: www.Greenshedconversions.com

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Re: EV road tax

shred
In reply to this post by Steve Clunn
I agree 100% with all you said. It's the same thing I've been saying for years.
Neal
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Re: EV road tax

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by Steve Clunn
On 10/4/2010 10:45 PM, Steve Clunn wrote:
> Some how I was under the impression that by driving an EV I was saving
> the other non-EV driving Americans money.

What you say is true; driving an EV does reduce the need for defense
spending, causes less pollution, reduces health care costs, etc. But
most people don't connect their use of fossil fuels with any of these costs.

They will look upon EV'ers as getting a "free ride" if we don't pay "our
fair share" of taxes (which usually means they want us to pay more than
they do). There's lots of them and few of us. So in a vote, they will win.

You may be right; Joe Public is blissfully ignorant of the "tax free
fuel" situation for EVs. Making him aware of it might only lead to
ridiculously extreme laws to "punish" EV drivers.

But I think it is more likely that government legislators, eager for new
sources of revenue to fix their budget deficits, will impose large tax
penalties on any group that lacks the political lobbying clout and
public support to fight back.

It seems to me that it's better to get Joe Public on our side. "Joe, you
could be getting tax free fuel too, if you joined us".
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Re: EV road tax

tomw
In reply to this post by Steve Clunn
The problem of insufficient road tax revenue has been under discussion for several years now as fleet mileage has improved.  The latest CAFE standards will provide a bigger push for an alternative way to finance roads than evs, for at least several years.
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Re: EV road tax

tomw
In reply to this post by Steve Clunn
One solution would be to require some simple stripped down gps sealed module built to a common standard to track accumulated mileage, to be installed on each vehicle.  This could be read each year at an inspection station and your road tax based on miles driven.  It would avoid the problem of people fooling with the odometer if it were used as the recording system.
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Re: EV road tax

John Lussmyer
  On 10/5/2010 9:59 AM, tomw wrote:
> One solution would be to require some simple stripped down gps sealed module
> built to a common standard to track accumulated mileage, to be installed on
> each vehicle.  This could be read each year at an inspection station and
> your road tax based on miles driven.  It would avoid the problem of people
> fooling with the odometer if it were used as the recording system.

And just think! with the small amount of data needed, and the cheapness
of Flash memory, the unit could tell the inspection station exactly
where your car has been every minute for the last year!  Wouldn't that
be WONDERFUL!
(note sarcasm in above statement.)

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Re: EV road tax

Zeke Yewdall
>
>
> And just think! with the small amount of data needed, and the cheapness
> of Flash memory, the unit could tell the inspection station exactly
> where your car has been every minute for the last year!  Wouldn't that
> be WONDERFUL!
> (note sarcasm in above statement.)
>

yes... the guys with the utility construction company with that in their
truck mentioned that headquarters could tell exactly where they were at all
times... and what speed they were going, and all... it apparently pops up a
warning back in headquarters if the truck's speed exceeded the local speed
limit.

Z

>
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Re: EV road tax

carrott
In reply to this post by tomw
On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 09:59 -0700, tomw wrote:
> One solution would be to require some simple stripped down gps sealed module
> built to a common standard to track accumulated mileage, to be installed on
> each vehicle.  This could be read each year at an inspection station and
> your road tax based on miles driven.  It would avoid the problem of people
> fooling with the odometer if it were used as the recording system.

Road User Charges fraud does happen in New Zealand, but it isn't very
common. Forcing everyone to pay for and maintain a GPS is probably an
inappropriate solution, especially when GPS doesn't work that well in
some terrain and it's an aweful lot easier to jam than an odometer.

Just from a "GPS is really useful" point of view, we really don't want
to put incentives in place for people to acquire and use GPS jammers.

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Re: EV road tax

Collin Kidder
In reply to this post by John Lussmyer
Yes, there are negatives but some "positives" too. For instance, GPS tends
to be horribly finicky and it would be a real shame if somehow the GPS
antenna got shielded and the system quit reporting millage. Don't suggest
that they should detect that because it's also possible to create your own
"GPS" signals that would fool the unit into believing the wrong location.

In summary: Go ahead and let them try GPS. Way too many people will cheat
it.

On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 1:32 PM, John G. Lussmyer <[hidden email]>wrote:

>  On 10/5/2010 9:59 AM, tomw wrote:
> > One solution would be to require some simple stripped down gps sealed
> module
> > built to a common standard to track accumulated mileage, to be installed
> on
> > each vehicle.  This could be read each year at an inspection station and
> > your road tax based on miles driven.  It would avoid the problem of
> people
> > fooling with the odometer if it were used as the recording system.
>
> And just think! with the small amount of data needed, and the cheapness
> of Flash memory, the unit could tell the inspection station exactly
> where your car has been every minute for the last year!  Wouldn't that
> be WONDERFUL!
> (note sarcasm in above statement.)
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
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Re: EV road tax

martinwinlow
In reply to this post by tomw

On 5 Oct 2010, at 17:59, tomw wrote:

>
> One solution would be to require some simple stripped down gps  
> sealed module
> built to a common standard to track accumulated mileage, to be  
> installed on
> each vehicle.  This could be read each year at an inspection station  
> and
> your road tax based on miles driven.  It would avoid the problem of  
> people
> fooling with the odometer if it were used as the recording system.
> --
> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EV-road-tax-tp2955380p2956464.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive  
> at Nabble.com.
>

Hi Tom,

The UK g'ment have been mooting the possibility of using an RFID chip  
imbedded in the registration (licence) plate and a network of overhead  
gantry based readers to charge vehicles according to milage done.  
This would probably only apply to highways/motorways and VEL (annual  
car tax) would still have to be paid too (see my earlier post on that  
one)!  On top of that, fuel tax here is why our petrol/diesel is so  
much dearer than yours - last time I looked, 70% of the price paid is  
tax now and the current UK average prices are UK£1.166 and UK£1.196  
per litre for petrol and diesel resp.  You begin to see why the UK  
motorist thinks he's getting a hard time. Is all this coming to the US?

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk




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Re: EV road tax

Ruspert
In reply to this post by Lee Hart
Surveilance as a means of taxation is a very poor solution and could possibly be unconstitutional in the USA, although this has been waivered by, licensed drivers, presently for warrantless searches by what is called "Implied consent" whiich in  my personal belief is also unconstitutional.
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Re: EV road tax

Collin Kidder
Yes it is a poor solution. Partly because it leads to abuse and partly
because it's so dead simple to defeat. RFID chips aren't usually too hard to
zap. It's possible to clone them too. Wouldn't it be funny if you changed
your RFID tag to be the same as the one on the car driven by whomever came
up with the idea of using RFID for taxation? ;-)

The constitutional argument seems invalid in this country. We're doing all
sorts of things already that aren't constitutional and it does not seem as
if the average person or politician cares. So, I don't think that it would
be a real stumbling block.

On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 9:45 AM, Ruspert <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Surveilance as a means of taxation is a very poor solution and could
> possibly
> be unconstitutional in the USA, although this has been waivered by,
> licensed
> drivers, presently for warrantless searches by what is called "Implied
> consent" whiich in  my personal belief is also unconstitutional.
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EV-road-tax-tp2955380p2964980.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
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EPA Certificate of Conformity for Electric Conversion?

David Dymaxion
I want to get a "Clean Air Clean Fuel" plate for my car. Here is a pic of one:
http://explodingdinosaurs.com/race2thefuture18Aug2007/IMAGE_842med.jpg . The
plate lets a green car run in the car pool lanes and park for free at Salt Lake
City parking meters. I also figured it would be a good way to promote clean
transportation.

I need a permit from the Utah Department of Transportation (UDOT) to get the
plate. UDOT says they need Federal EPA approval to do that, and the vehicle
needs to have a "Certificate of Conformity." It seems it should be easy to get
something that indicates you are conforming with emissions laws for an electric
vehicle. From my on line research it looks like there is a process to do this
for imported cars, kit cars, and manufactured cars. Has anyone done the process
for an electric conversion? Thanks for any info.


     
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Re: EPA Certificate of Conformity for Electric Conversion?

Aaron Choate
The sad thing is that for cars that were already certified in the US,
a battery electric vehicle conversion (whether home or professional)
doesn't require the certificate of conformity according to the EPA.
Unlike the production EVs where you might recall that Tesla forgot to
file some paperwork and got hit with a bit of a fine.

I just happen to have been in contact with somebody at the EPA about a
similar question so I asked.  He says that it is not a simple process,
but doable.  No testing is necessary, but data will need to be added
into their system which is difficult to do for people who are new to
the process to work out.

I'm glad to put you in touch with him if you like.  He may even be
able to help you talk with the UDOT folk so they don't require you to
obtain a cert.

Cheers,

Aaron Choate
REVOLT Electric Vehicles

On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 1:40 PM, David Dymaxion <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I want to get a "Clean Air Clean Fuel" plate for my car. Here is a pic of one:
> http://explodingdinosaurs.com/race2thefuture18Aug2007/IMAGE_842med.jpg . The
> plate lets a green car run in the car pool lanes and park for free at Salt Lake
> City parking meters. I also figured it would be a good way to promote clean
> transportation.
>
> I need a permit from the Utah Department of Transportation (UDOT) to get the
> plate. UDOT says they need Federal EPA approval to do that, and the vehicle
> needs to have a "Certificate of Conformity." It seems it should be easy to get
> something that indicates you are conforming with emissions laws for an electric
> vehicle. From my on line research it looks like there is a process to do this
> for imported cars, kit cars, and manufactured cars. Has anyone done the process
> for an electric conversion? Thanks for any info.
>
>
>
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Re: EV road tax

Ruspert
In reply to this post by Steve Clunn
Some States already tax for losses such as a "use tax", that is a tax for purchases made out of State when you pay no sales tax, and the buyer's home State has a sales tax. The State wants you to pay for the tax that they are not entitled to, and call it a "use tax". On vehicles that fall in this catagory, the title transfer fee includes the "use tax". On other items, you are required to declare the amount of "use tax" owed and pay it.
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Re: EV road tax

Lee Hart
Ruspert wrote:
> Some States already tax for losses such as a "use tax", that is a tax for
> purchases made out of State when you pay no sales tax, and the buyer's home
> State has a sales tax. The State wants you to pay for the tax that they are
> not entitled to, and call it a "use tax". On vehicles that fall in this
> catagory, the title transfer fee includes the "use tax". On other items, you
> are required to declare the amount of "use tax" owed and pay it.

Michigan has such a "use tax". I had to install a separate electric
meter in my garage for charging my EV. I dutifully sent in my "sales and
use tax" form every 3 months as required, for the dollar or so taxes
due. After a year, they sent me a letter saying it was no longer
necessary -- the amount collected was less than their processing fees
(unusually sensible for a government). :-)
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Re: EV road tax

brucedp
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Steve Clunn

OR HB2328 EV & PIH Road Tax

Poorly written Bill: should tax by weight & mileage

http://www.kval.com/news/business/115109709.html
[video] Should electric car owners pay a mileage tax?
By Tom Adams KVAL News and KVAL.com staff  Feb 2 2011

EUGENE, Ore. - OK, electric and hybrid car drivers: ... if you don't
buy gas, you don't pay [OR] gas taxes that pay for highway
maintenance.

If [OR] state house bill [2328] is passed, the state will find its
way into your wallet a different direction. Here comes the vehicle
road usage charge.

As proposed, the six-tenths of one cent per mile fee - about $90 a
year if you drive 15,000 miles - would go into effect in 2014 if
passed.  

"I think there is a concern on how we're going to fund transportation
in the future," said state Rep. Terry Beyer, D-Springfield, "so we
want to make sure we start exploring all the options."

Beyer said lawmakers don't want the fee to be a disincentive for
buying an electric car, but they want electric vehicle owners to pay
their share.

"We put a low fee on it that is the equivalent to a 48 mile per gallon
vehicle that's on the road now," she said.

That is OK in theory, said Mark Frohnmayer of Arcimoto, an electric
car maker in Eugene's Whiteaker neighborhood. But he said there's
nothing in the bill about heavier cars causing more damage.

"The bill doesn't make any notice of that fact," Frohnmayer said, "and
I think for it to be a truly appropriate measure it should be scaled
by the weight of the vehicle."

Frohnmayer suggested the state not tax electric vehicles that weigh
less than 2,000 pounds.

There is no timetable yet on when the electric car mileage tax will be
debated. Beyer said the bill still needs a hearing date.
[© 2011 Fisher Communications, Inc.]


http://www.registerguard.com/csp/cms/sites/web/polls/25840232-56/elect

ric-gas-drivers-fee-oregon.csp
Proposal would charge drivers of electric cars  A “vehicle road usage
charge” would stand in for the gas taxes other owners pay to help
support the road network  By David Steves  Feb 1 2011

SALEM ... Under House Bill 2328, those drivers would pay a “vehicle
road usage charge,” starting with model year 2014 electric vehicles
and plug-in gas-electric hybrids.

“We have to make sure that they are contributing to the cost of the
roads that they are driving on,” said state Rep. Terry Beyer, a
Springfield Democrat and chairwoman of the state Road User Fee Task
Force, which recommended the tax legislation ...

Public concern surfaced, though. Some criticized the potential for an
expanding bureaucracy. Others said the per-mile fee was too high and
exceeded what a similar vehicle would pay in gas taxes ...

14,000 miles for $90
The program’s overseer, Jim Whitty, said those lessons informed the
new HB 2328 proposal.

“All of the major concerns from the original pilot are addressed in
this bill,” said Whitty, director of the Office of Innovative
Partnerships for the state Department of Transportation.

The latest fee would be set at 0.6 cents per gallon. That means an
electric car driven 15,000 miles a year in Oregon would cost $90 in
fees.

That is on par with what a 48-miles-per-gallon Toyota Prius hybrid
costs in state gas taxes (at 29 cents-per-gallon) for the same
distance traveled. And it’s half what the driver of a 24-mpg vehicle
would pay in gas taxes driving the same distance.

The bill also requires the development of an option of tracking and
reporting miles driven to protect drivers’ privacy by avoiding the
use of “vehicle location technology.” Instead, that option is likely
to rely on technology to transmit remotely miles driven as recorded by
the vehicle’s odometer, Whitty said.

Those drivers would need to use a log book or other method of
documenting miles driven off of Oregon roads — for example, in other
states — so they can seek a refund for the fee paid on that travel.

Although the bill has yet to be scheduled for a hearing or to receive
widespread debate, it has the potential for bipartisan support.

Republican Rep. Cliff Bentz — co-chairman of the House Transportation
and Economic Development Committee, which will take up the bill — said
the general concepts in HB 2328 are worth at least considering.

Rather than viewing it as a new tax — something Republicans generally
oppose — Bentz said he sees it as a way to ensure that drivers are
treated equitably for their use of a public resource: the
transportation system.

“Everyone has got to pay for what they use,” said the Ontario
lawmaker, who served on the task force that recommended HB 2838. “To
the extent the bill does that and fills a current void, I support it.”
... [© 2011]





http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Think-EVs-td3253559.html

{brucedp.150m.com}
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Re: OR HB2328 EV & PIH Road Tax

Matt Childress
> Rather than viewing it as a new tax — something Republicans generally
> oppose — Bentz said he sees it as a way to ensure that drivers are
> treated equitably for their use of a public resource: the
> transportation system.
>
> “Everyone has got to pay for what they use,” said the Ontario
> lawmaker, who served on the task force that recommended HB 2838. “To
> the extent the bill does that and fills a current void, I support it.”
>... [© 2011]

I used to think along these lines as well -- everyone should pay for what they use.  Right up until a week or so ago when someone on this list mentioned that passenger vehicle traffic was insignificant to road wear/damage compared to 18-wheelers (and city busses).  When I researched and confirmed this post, I was shocked!  We are all subsidizing the freight-on-roads and mass transit on roads when they should be on rail/light rail!

If everyone has got to pay for what they use, then someone needs to make Bentz aware of just how skewed the research data is compared to the taxation (most mass transit busses do not pay road taxes)...

I'm not against mass transit -- I'm FOR electric light rail mass transit!  Any petrol-based form of mass transit is just a smokescreen for keeping us hooked on the billion-dollar-a-day problem!

M@

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