EVDL usage - PLEASE READ

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EVDL usage - PLEASE READ

EVDL Administrator
Sorry, I've been out of town for a few days, and I'm just catching up on
EVDL mail.  Otherwise I would have posted this a few days ago.  

We've recently been getting more and more instances of people bickering with
each other on the EVDL.  

Now and then we see this from a small number of established members.  They
feel the need to defend themselves or their position.  

That's understandable, but they probably don't realize that such a defense
isn't very effective.  A few EVDLers read the first couple of items in the
thread, but it's not too long before anyone seeing another post in the
thread just hits "delete."  In the end, the principals end up talking to
each other.  Hardly anyone else reads the thread.  They're wasting their
time and the list's bandwidth, filling up 1,300 other mailboxes for nothing.

Ironically, among the few who do read and respond we sometimes find those
who aren't really involved, but who seem to believe they have a monopoly on
publishing "truth" and get a kick out of seeing their own words on the list.
This just adds to the din, but again is a waste of time and effort.

The problem is, eventually someone will read these - and possibly not
someone you want to.  What you're saying is forever associated with your
name(s) on the web, along with the names of the vehicles, the names of the
races and racetracks, and the names of the organizations.   Five years from
now, 10, 15, anyone with a search engine will see this bickering.  And it
doesn't look good at all.

Though some people look worse than others in these threads, >nobody<
involved is being painted in a favorable light.  In the long run, the
combatants lose, and so do the hobby of EV conversion / building and the
sport of EV racing.

This story is now outside the EVDL, and in the mainstream media.  Any
corrections must be initiated there, not here.  If there is to be discussion
among the principals of how to manage this, it should be carried out in
private email, NOT on this list.

Actually, I'm not just talking about EV racers arguing over who has the
record, who claims it, who has the right to, when websites were updated,
what releases went to the press when, etc., etc.  We've developed a whole
undercurrent - maybe I should call it an OVERcurrent - of bickering here.
Some of this is from established members, but (much as I hate to say it) a
lot of it is from newbies.

We've had a substantial influx of new members in recent months, and a few of
them are, shall we say, the confrontational sort.  Understand, I'm not
suggesting that newbies are a bad thing or a problem.  Far from it!  
Everyone is welcome here.  However, the EVDL grew out of the relatively
collegial atmosphere of the Internet's early days (it started in 1991).  
Yes, we had plenty of debate, but it was always respectful.

Where is that respect today?  It's being drowned out by the din.  Too many
of the younger members, some probably in diapers in 1991, grew up with the
discord that characterizes many (most?) other Internet resources.  They
apparently can't quite fall in with the friendly banter that is, or at least
was, the EVDL's hallmark.  

Regardless of the source, this bickering is diminishing the value of EVDL
for people who just want to build practical, usable EVs.  

I monitor subscriptions and unsubscriptions and I'm glad to say that I
haven't yet seen a stampede for the exits.  Right now I'm seeing more coming
than going - so far.  However, I've heard from quite a few EVDLers,
including some stalwarts, who are pretty upset with the general direction of
things and would really like us (meaning Clyde and me) to take decisive
action against the noisemakers.

I don't want to convert the EVDL into a moderated list.  We don't have time
for that.  Nor do I want to drop a heavy hand on the membership with lists
of rules and regulations, and I sure don't want to try to enforce them.

I still believe in the ability of communities of interest to police
themselves.  That's why I keep telling you : if you don't like somebody,
don't want to read what he or she writes - for goodness sake, that's what
email filters are for.  If you don't want to talk to those annoying guys on
the porch, then close the door!  

On the other hand, if your porch-dwellers won't take the hint and go away,
sometimes you have to call the authorities and have them escorted off the
premises.  Some people here might use other methods of persuasion, which I
don't want to hear about.  (For me, that might be loosening the leash a bit
on one or both of my dogs ;-).  

Similarly, the growing noise level, and an increasing population of
sometimes excessively self-righteous members, seems to be straining the
list's abilty to self-regulate.  We may be approaching the point where Clyde
and I will have no choice but to put some slack in the dogs' leashes.

That would be a shame.  

We >will< do that if need be.  We're not going to let this list degenerate
into the kind of flame war that burned out the membership of the Alternative
Energy list a few years ago.  But that's a last resort.

So, let's try a bit of consciousness-raising here.  

Re-read what I wrote above.  You're writing in a public forum.  Anything you
write to the EVDL is archived in many places, most of which are not under
our control.  Your words will echo on the web essentially forever!  

Whatever you write here, always think before you click "send" : Do I want
this to be something that a future or potential employer, client, sponsor,
spouse, ex-spouse, friend, or enemy can associate with my name?  Is this
what I want people to see when they search for information on EVs or EV
racing or my organization?

This is the information society.  You are standing out in the public square,
and the public has a long memory. Before you shout, make very, very sure
that you really want to be heard.  Be careful out here.

Now let's get back to building and discussing real-world EVs, OK?

Thanks,

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: EVDL usage - PLEASE READ

Hi-Torque Electric

--- EVDL Administrator <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Sorry, I've been out of town for a few days, and I'm
> just catching up on
> EVDL mail.  Otherwise I would have posted this a few
> days ago.  

See what happens when you leave? wasn't but ten
minutes went by, they started burning the house down
8^o
We may have to concider handcuffing you to a laptop
and plan out your routes so you're never from a signal
for more than 10 minutes 8^P
 
> We've recently been getting more and more instances
> of people bickering with
> each other on the EVDL.  

I've been trying to be soooo good 08^)  I swear it
wasn't me this time! and if it was, they made me do it
8^o

> Now and then we see this from a small number of
> established members.  They
> feel the need to defend themselves or their
> position.  

But...

> Though some people look worse than others in these
> threads, >Jim Husted<

And here I thought I was on your side 8^P
 
> This story is now outside the EVDL, and in the
> mainstream media.  

Playing hard ball now huh?  I see how it is!

> Any corrections must be initiated there, not here.  

How do I do that?  Seems like a lot of work 8^o
   
> Everyone is welcome here.  

Whew.

> However,

DOH!

> Where is that respect today?  It's being drowned out
> by the din.  

You spell Jim with a "J" David, duh, besides I always
show respect, it just gets drowned out by flawed
character and sadistic tendencies 8^P


> Too many
> of the younger members, some probably in diapers in
> 1991

So what, is my mom sending you pictures? damn, can't
catch a break here.
 
> apparently can't quite fall in with the friendly
> banter that is, or at least
> was, the EVDL's hallmark.

Oh so now I screwed up a "hallmark", just great.


> Regardless of the source, this bickering is
> diminishing the value of EVDL

No, it's okay just come on out and say it...

> I monitor subscriptions and unsubscriptions and I'm
> glad to say that I
> haven't yet seen a stampede for the exits.

See I told you I've been good!

> However, I've heard from quite
> a few EVDLers,
> including some stalwarts, who are pretty upset with
> the general direction of
> things and would really like us (meaning Clyde and
> me) to take decisive
> action against the noisemakers.

DOH!

> I don't want to convert the EVDL into a moderated
> list.  We don't have time
> for that.

Whew.

> Nor do I want to drop a heavy hand on the
> membership with lists
> of rules and regulations, and I sure don't want to
> try to enforce them.

I've heard patients is a vertue 8^)

> I still believe in the ability of communities of
> interest to police
> themselves.  

Yeah well you should have seen them the minute you
walked out the door, Mr. Okay kids, play nice while
daddies gone! Ohh by the way, I left the flame war
matches up on the counter, and there's some lighter
fluid there if you boys get bored 8^o


That's why I keep telling you : if you
> don't like somebody,

Hit them with lighter fluid and flick a match?
 
> that's what email filters are for.  

DOH!

> On the other hand, if your porch-dwellers won't take
> the hint and go away,

Now you hit them with lighter fluid and flick the
match, right?
 
> sometimes you have to call the authorities and have
> them escorted off the
> premises.  

Ohh come on!

> Some people here might use other methods

Okay, now we're talking lighter fluid right???

> Which I don't want to hear about.

Okay, so what dad doesn't see... Got it 8^)

> Similarly, the growing noise level, and an
> increasing population of
> sometimes excessively self-righteous members, seems
> to be straining the
> list's abilty to self-regulate.  

Okay so, NO CAPS, no ego, no strain, got it.


> We may be
> approaching the point where Clyde
> and I will have no choice but to put some slack in
> the dogs' leashes.

Is there anyway you could put them on restriction
first, like a 24 hour, one week no post time-out?  
without a full banning for life?
Not that I won't be better boss, cause I'm writting it
all down 08^)
 
> That would be a shame.

I'd be bumming big time boss 8^(
   
> We >will< do that if need be.  

I said I'll be GOOD!

> We're not going to
> let this list degenerate
> into the kind of flame war that burned out the
> membership of the Alternative
> Energy list a few years ago.

They never proved that was me, see there's that
internet media mis-information thing at work again!

> But that's a last
> resort.

Whew.
 
> So, let's try a bit of consciousness-raising here.  

As long as I don't have to spell it I'm in!
 
> Re-read what I wrote above.

How many times??
For me????

> Now let's get back to building and discussing
> real-world EVs, OK?

Well said David, and I hope you didn't mind me having
a little fun with it, in hopes it lightens the mood a
bit here.  All jesting aside, when do I get to use the
lighter fluid? 8^o
Sorry couldn't help myself this time, but I'm working
on being better 8^)

Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

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Re: EVDL usage - PLEASE READ

Mike.B
ROTFLMAO !!!!!!!,  I see Jim's been paying
attention.., formerly spelled DIN



--- Jim Husted <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> --- EVDL Administrator <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Sorry, I've been out of town for a few days, and
> I'm
> > just catching up on
> > EVDL mail.  Otherwise I would have posted this a
> few
> > days ago.  
>
> See what happens when you leave? wasn't but ten
> minutes went by, they started burning the house down
> 8^o
> We may have to concider handcuffing you to a laptop
> and plan out your routes so you're never from a
> signal
> for more than 10 minutes 8^P
>  
> > We've recently been getting more and more
> instances
> > of people bickering with
> > each other on the EVDL.  
>
> I've been trying to be soooo good 08^)  I swear it
> wasn't me this time! and if it was, they made me do
> it
> 8^o
>
> > Now and then we see this from a small number of
> > established members.  They
> > feel the need to defend themselves or their
> > position.  
>
> But...
>
> > Though some people look worse than others in these
> > threads, >Jim Husted<
>
> And here I thought I was on your side 8^P
>  
> > This story is now outside the EVDL, and in the
> > mainstream media.  
>
> Playing hard ball now huh?  I see how it is!
>
> > Any corrections must be initiated there, not here.
>  
>
> How do I do that?  Seems like a lot of work 8^o
>    
> > Everyone is welcome here.  
>
> Whew.
>
> > However,
>
> DOH!
>
> > Where is that respect today?  It's being drowned
> out
> > by the din.  
>
> You spell Jim with a "J" David, duh, besides I
> always
> show respect, it just gets drowned out by flawed
> character and sadistic tendencies 8^P
>
>
> > Too many
> > of the younger members, some probably in diapers
> in
> > 1991
>
> So what, is my mom sending you pictures? damn, can't
> catch a break here.
>  
> > apparently can't quite fall in with the friendly
> > banter that is, or at least
> > was, the EVDL's hallmark.
>
> Oh so now I screwed up a "hallmark", just great.
>
>
> > Regardless of the source, this bickering is
> > diminishing the value of EVDL
>
> No, it's okay just come on out and say it...
>
> > I monitor subscriptions and unsubscriptions and
> I'm
> > glad to say that I
> > haven't yet seen a stampede for the exits.
>
> See I told you I've been good!
>
> > However, I've heard from quite
> > a few EVDLers,
> > including some stalwarts, who are pretty upset
> with
> > the general direction of
> > things and would really like us (meaning Clyde and
> > me) to take decisive
> > action against the noisemakers.
>
> DOH!
>
> > I don't want to convert the EVDL into a moderated
> > list.  We don't have time
> > for that.
>
> Whew.
>
> > Nor do I want to drop a heavy hand on the
> > membership with lists
> > of rules and regulations, and I sure don't want to
> > try to enforce them.
>
> I've heard patients is a vertue 8^)
>
> > I still believe in the ability of communities of
> > interest to police
> > themselves.  
>
> Yeah well you should have seen them the minute you
> walked out the door, Mr. Okay kids, play nice while
> daddies gone! Ohh by the way, I left the flame war
> matches up on the counter, and there's some lighter
> fluid there if you boys get bored 8^o
>
>
> That's why I keep telling you : if you
> > don't like somebody,
>
> Hit them with lighter fluid and flick a match?
>  
> > that's what email filters are for.  
>
> DOH!
>
> > On the other hand, if your porch-dwellers won't
> take
> > the hint and go away,
>
> Now you hit them with lighter fluid and flick the
> match, right?
>  
> > sometimes you have to call the authorities and
> have
> > them escorted off the
> > premises.  
>
> Ohh come on!
>
> > Some people here might use other methods
>
> Okay, now we're talking lighter fluid right???
>
> > Which I don't want to hear about.
>
> Okay, so what dad doesn't see... Got it 8^)
>
> > Similarly, the growing noise level, and an
> > increasing population of
> > sometimes excessively self-righteous members,
> seems
> > to be straining the
> > list's abilty to self-regulate.  
>
> Okay so, NO CAPS, no ego, no strain, got it.
>
>
> > We may be
> > approaching the point where Clyde
> > and I will have no choice but to put some slack in
> > the dogs' leashes.
>
> Is there anyway you could put them on restriction
> first, like a 24 hour, one week no post time-out?  
> without a full banning for life?
> Not that I won't be better boss, cause I'm writting
> it
> all down 08^)
>  
> > That would be a shame.
>
> I'd be bumming big time boss 8^(
>    
> > We >will< do that if need be.  
>
> I said I'll be GOOD!
>
> > We're not going to
> > let this list degenerate
> > into the kind of flame war that burned out the
> > membership of the Alternative
> > Energy list a few years ago.
>
> They never proved that was me, see there's that
> internet media mis-information thing at work again!
>
> > But that's a last
>
=== message truncated ===


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Re: EVDL Aministrator Looses It! was titled Good Faith & EVDL usage - PLEASE READ

Roderick Wilde
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator
  We have all seen David's posts to things that got a bit out there but he
has always remained fairly level headed even when it comes to Trolls and
Gerbils. I think this time we have driven him over the edge :-0  Oh nooo Mr.
Bill!!!

  I totally agree with his last statement: "Now let's get back to building
and discussing real-world EVs, OK?" Yes, I too would like to go back to the
good old days of the past before all the new hypothetical and armchair
engineers and before all the press releases for new products being
over-hyped by high end marketing firms and just get back to discussing
practical EVs. The EV List has become the same as any standard hard cover
magazine you buy on any magazine stand. Here is an experiment that my former
wife showed me. You buy any magazine. Then you start ripping out all the
advertisements. By the time you are done you have a magazine with very few
pages and all the substance is left in there. That is what has happened to
the EV List from my personal perspective. You have to wade through so much
BS just to get to the information that you came there for.

  By the way David, I always understand that whatever I write here will be
around for millenniums and I am never ashamed of my opinions or of the
truth. If you think I have ever told lies on this list then I feel I should
be removed. There is already too much BS in this world and even my spam
filters can't keep up with it :-)

Roderick Wilde



----- Original Message -----
From: "EVDL Administrator" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 1:45 PM
Subject: [EVDL] EVDL usage - PLEASE READ


> Sorry, I've been out of town for a few days, and I'm just catching up on
> EVDL mail.  Otherwise I would have posted this a few days ago.
>
> We've recently been getting more and more instances of people bickering
> with
> each other on the EVDL.
>
> Now and then we see this from a small number of established members.  They
> feel the need to defend themselves or their position.
>
> That's understandable, but they probably don't realize that such a defense
> isn't very effective.  A few EVDLers read the first couple of items in the
> thread, but it's not too long before anyone seeing another post in the
> thread just hits "delete."  In the end, the principals end up talking to
> each other.  Hardly anyone else reads the thread.  They're wasting their
> time and the list's bandwidth, filling up 1,300 other mailboxes for
> nothing.
>
> Ironically, among the few who do read and respond we sometimes find those
> who aren't really involved, but who seem to believe they have a monopoly
> on
> publishing "truth" and get a kick out of seeing their own words on the
> list.
> This just adds to the din, but again is a waste of time and effort.
>
> The problem is, eventually someone will read these - and possibly not
> someone you want to.  What you're saying is forever associated with your
> name(s) on the web, along with the names of the vehicles, the names of the
> races and racetracks, and the names of the organizations.   Five years
> from
> now, 10, 15, anyone with a search engine will see this bickering.  And it
> doesn't look good at all.
>
> Though some people look worse than others in these threads, >nobody<
> involved is being painted in a favorable light.  In the long run, the
> combatants lose, and so do the hobby of EV conversion / building and the
> sport of EV racing.
>
> This story is now outside the EVDL, and in the mainstream media.  Any
> corrections must be initiated there, not here.  If there is to be
> discussion
> among the principals of how to manage this, it should be carried out in
> private email, NOT on this list.
>
> Actually, I'm not just talking about EV racers arguing over who has the
> record, who claims it, who has the right to, when websites were updated,
> what releases went to the press when, etc., etc.  We've developed a whole
> undercurrent - maybe I should call it an OVERcurrent - of bickering here.
> Some of this is from established members, but (much as I hate to say it) a
> lot of it is from newbies.
>
> We've had a substantial influx of new members in recent months, and a few
> of
> them are, shall we say, the confrontational sort.  Understand, I'm not
> suggesting that newbies are a bad thing or a problem.  Far from it!
> Everyone is welcome here.  However, the EVDL grew out of the relatively
> collegial atmosphere of the Internet's early days (it started in 1991).
> Yes, we had plenty of debate, but it was always respectful.
>
> Where is that respect today?  It's being drowned out by the din.  Too many
> of the younger members, some probably in diapers in 1991, grew up with the
> discord that characterizes many (most?) other Internet resources.  They
> apparently can't quite fall in with the friendly banter that is, or at
> least
> was, the EVDL's hallmark.
>
> Regardless of the source, this bickering is diminishing the value of EVDL
> for people who just want to build practical, usable EVs.
>
> I monitor subscriptions and unsubscriptions and I'm glad to say that I
> haven't yet seen a stampede for the exits.  Right now I'm seeing more
> coming
> than going - so far.  However, I've heard from quite a few EVDLers,
> including some stalwarts, who are pretty upset with the general direction
> of
> things and would really like us (meaning Clyde and me) to take decisive
> action against the noisemakers.
>
> I don't want to convert the EVDL into a moderated list.  We don't have
> time
> for that.  Nor do I want to drop a heavy hand on the membership with lists
> of rules and regulations, and I sure don't want to try to enforce them.
>
> I still believe in the ability of communities of interest to police
> themselves.  That's why I keep telling you : if you don't like somebody,
> don't want to read what he or she writes - for goodness sake, that's what
> email filters are for.  If you don't want to talk to those annoying guys
> on
> the porch, then close the door!
>
> On the other hand, if your porch-dwellers won't take the hint and go away,
> sometimes you have to call the authorities and have them escorted off the
> premises.  Some people here might use other methods of persuasion, which I
> don't want to hear about.  (For me, that might be loosening the leash a
> bit
> on one or both of my dogs ;-).
>
> Similarly, the growing noise level, and an increasing population of
> sometimes excessively self-righteous members, seems to be straining the
> list's abilty to self-regulate.  We may be approaching the point where
> Clyde
> and I will have no choice but to put some slack in the dogs' leashes.
>
> That would be a shame.
>
> We >will< do that if need be.  We're not going to let this list degenerate
> into the kind of flame war that burned out the membership of the
> Alternative
> Energy list a few years ago.  But that's a last resort.
>
> So, let's try a bit of consciousness-raising here.
>
> Re-read what I wrote above.  You're writing in a public forum.  Anything
> you
> write to the EVDL is archived in many places, most of which are not under
> our control.  Your words will echo on the web essentially forever!
>
> Whatever you write here, always think before you click "send" : Do I want
> this to be something that a future or potential employer, client, sponsor,
> spouse, ex-spouse, friend, or enemy can associate with my name?  Is this
> what I want people to see when they search for information on EVs or EV
> racing or my organization?
>
> This is the information society.  You are standing out in the public
> square,
> and the public has a long memory. Before you shout, make very, very sure
> that you really want to be heard.  Be careful out here.
>
> Now let's get back to building and discussing real-world EVs, OK?
>
> Thanks,
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1207 - Release Date: 1/2/2008
> 11:29 AM
>
>

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