EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20171226

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Re: Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Hi Dan,

I'm 'down the road' in Ontario, but with NS roots (Annapolis Valley and
Pictou County).  I've met David Swan a couple of times, and corresponded
with Jeff Dahn.  I enjoyed your SnowPig video (and I hope to pick up
more front lift motors on Friday to put my Elec-Trak snow team back into
action).

I think Efficiency NS is likely wearing the same blinders that Ontario's
"Conservation First" continues to hold dear.  Focus only on grid
electricity use (kWh), and ignore any potential for substituting
renewables, going for major efficiency gains, or having any concept that
using more electricity could actually be the BETTER option (relative say
to using more natural gas, gasoline, diesel or heating oil).  (E.g., I
could get an incentive to shift from an electric hot water tank to a
natural gas hot water tank, but not to go from a natural gas hot water
tank to a solar pre-heat system (no electric power reduction).  The
Ontario program is pretty half-hearted anyway; clearly afraid of
reducing baseload demand which justifies continued over-investment in
their CANDU nuclear fleet.

Nova Scotia Power used to have an incentive program for lower price
electricity during the overnight period for 'charging' a heat storage
unit.  Looks like that program is still in place.
(https://www.nspower.ca/en/home/for-my-home/heating-solutions/electric-thermal-storage/default.aspx)
  Perhaps NSP could be coaxed into seeing EVs as a similar proposition,
and provide TOU pricing for EV households.

Speaking of EVs in NS, I just saw the announcement there will finally be
a province-wide EV network (12 stations) by summer 2018.  Hmmm, may
finally be able to take the trip from Ontario to NS in our 2017 Leaf
this year.

Wind power continues to grow in NS (and the winds seem to be getting
stronger in recent years), and Bay of Fundy tidal remains to be tapped
in a significant way.

Darryl McMahon

On 1/3/2018 10:38 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

> Message: 10
> Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 11:38:30 -0400
> From: Dan Baker<[hidden email]>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid
> Message-ID:
> <CAMJJmqvaVk_h4t8yM+q8oO93oy1=[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> So we have an interesting conundrum in my province (Nova Scotia).  NS
> decided to concentrate their efforts on saving energy instead of cleaning
> it up first.  This makes sense as the most efficient watt is the watt that
> was never used which I agree with.  They created an organization called
> Efficiency Nova Scotia, which helps our sole power company's residential
> and business customers save energy with credits for retrofits on lighting,
> industrial equipment, even data centers in which I do audits for.  It has
> worked great - the province is using 9% less power since 2008 despite high
> growth in many areas.  The power company is happy because it doesn't have
> to add more infrastructure, natural gas plants, etc.  The problem of course
> is when we start using electric cars, will that 9% disappear with the
> additional 10% from EVs?  How will Efficiency NS work if the grid's
> requirements increase?  Worse is the fact that the energy created here to
> charge electric vehicles still comes mostly from polluting sources - see
> article here
> http://halifaxchronicle.can.newsmemory.com/publink.php?shareid=034660fc3
> There is a somewhat valid argument that an electric car used in NS isn't
> that much better than a hybrid or even a gas car which lends some minds
> down here to think an EV really isn't worth it to buy or even give an
> incentive for.  I have argued there is a lot more EV value than just C02 -
> where it is emitted, the lower cost of ownership, our infrastructure and
> attracting young talent will eventually suffer if we don't keep up with
> this modernization.
>
> Would love to hear your feedback!
>
> Cheers
> Dan

--
Darryl McMahon
Freelance Project Manager (sustainable systems)
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Re: Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Mark,

Just curious what time of year the outages have been occurring at. If it is
during the summer, I would expect that the cause has more to do with a
large use of hvac units, not televisions or evse's. If during winter, then
it probably has to do with unexpected increase in heating demands. How fast
is the housing unit growth in the neighborhood? The utility may not be
increasing the power in ratio to the # of units coming online.

-Tom

On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 6:20 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Dubious or not, our local infrastructure couldn't handle the change in
> technology coupled with numbers of units in each household. Try telling
> those who suffered frequent outages that they were imagining it.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jan 2, 2018, at 5:09 PM, Steve Condie via EV <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > This statement, as written, is dubious.  All flat screen TV's except
> plasma
> > use less electricity than the older CRT sets did - a 50" LED set uses
> less
> > electricity than a 30" CRT.  Plasma is comparable to CRT, but plasma TVs
> > never really had a lot of market share, even in their brief heyday.
> What's
> > more, the total energy usage by TV sets is minimal compared to HVAC,
> > refrigeration, cooktops, etc.  I think someone's leg was being pulled.
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 11:42 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV <
> [hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> You paint too broad a brush.
> >>
> >> There have been *serious* problems as new technologies have drawn from
> the
> >> grid and increased useage.
> >>
> >> As plasma and other big screen TVs got big, various parts of my city had
> >> serious issues with power outages, as the system wasn't designed for
> those
> >> loads. And these weren't areas that had been there for 100 years.
> >> Relatively new housing developments had continuing power problems.  Our
> >> City Council had to really squeeze the utility to get capacity
> increased to
> >> handle the loads.
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >>> On Jan 1, 2018, at 7:33 PM, Thos True via EV <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Peri & All,
> >>>
> >>> I recall addressing this fear about a decade ago when it the fear was
> >> being
> >>> pushed by mainstream media.
> >>> The reality is no different than events that have occurred many times
> >> since
> >>> the inception of the electrical grid. It is interesting that the
> >> utilities
> >>> seem to do their best to avoid this conversation.
> >>> Some that we might recall were the fears about every house having a
> >>> refrigerator and washing machine, then it was the clothes dryer,
> followed
> >>> by microwave ovens & hand held appliances and the hot tub craze,
> followed
> >>> by the air conditioner installations. The air conditioners do have a
> >>> noticeable effect on the grid due to a few factors (1. Grid already
> >>> stressed due to over heating. 2. Large numbers in a region using the
> >> device
> >>> at the same time (large, continuous inrush currents). 3. Extended
> periods
> >>> of load for each device (in excess of 4 hours each).)
> >>> The previous example share the relatively short, staggered inrush
> current
> >>> events, followed by lower power demands, which are barely noticeable,
> >>> according to the utilities themselves, since most L2 units use the same
> >>> amount of power per use as the average clothes dryer.
> >>>
> >>> Tom True
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 7:28 AM, Peri Hartman via EV <
> [hidden email]>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I think this article raises a good question, though I don't really
> think
> >>>> it answers it. Currently, yes, the grid isn't significantly impacted.
> >> But
> >>>> what about if we had 100% EVs. What about local and long haul
> trucking?
> >>>> What about other ICE powered equipment, e.g. earth movers, etc.? What
> >> about
> >>>> generation capacity as well as distribution capacity?
> >>>>
> >>>> Personally, our EV boosted our electricity consumption by about 10%. I
> >>>> don't know how that number compares in general as, even with our EV,
> our
> >>>> electricity usage is below the national average. Even so, that's only
> >>>> accounting for residential EVs. Commercial and industrial electricity
> >> usage
> >>>> is much higher than residential. Is that enough to coincidentally
> >> assume a
> >>>> 10% figure for non residential EV charging? If this pans out to be
> >>>> reasonably true, it would seem that EVs will not, long term, cause a
> >>>> significant drain on our generation capacity, if any at all
> (considering
> >>>> time of use).
> >>>>
> >>>> For distribution, yes, we clearly can't have everyone charging their
> EVs
> >>>> at 5:30pm.  But, as we move more and more to renewables, we'll need
> grid
> >>>> storage anyway and, using the "10% rule", EVs won't be a significant
> >>>> factor. The significant factor will be how to get Nevada solar to the
> >>>> cloudy Pacific NW or to get Texas wind to sticky South Carolina. And
> >> how to
> >>>> store several days worth to even out nature's effects.
> >>>>
> >>>> Does anyone have real numbers of the effects of 100% EVs on generation
> >> and
> >>>> distribution?
> >>>>
> >>>> Peri
> >>>>
> >>>> https://www.nrdc.org/experts/noah-garcia/good-news-evs-are-n
> >>>> ot-crashing-grid
> >>>>
> >>>> ------ Original Message ------
> >>>> From: "brucedp5 via EV" <[hidden email]>
> >>>> To: [hidden email]
> >>>> Cc: "brucedp5" <[hidden email]>
> >>>> Sent: 30-Dec-17 10:08:53 PM
> >>>> Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20171226
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.
> >>>>> com/EVLN-Tesla-3-EV-handling-snow-covered-rutted-off-road-
> >>>>> track-on-standard-tires-v-tp4689040.html
> >>>>> EVLN: Tesla-3 EV handling snow-covered rutted off-road track on
> >> standard
> >>>>> tires (v)
> >>>>> The current versions of Tesla's flagship vehicles control power to
> all
> >>>>> four
> >>>>> wheels through dual independently operated electric motors, providing
> >>>>> unparalleled traction in even the worst of winter conditions. Short
> of
> >>>>> driving your Tesla through a snow-covered off-road track with deep,
> >> muddy
> >>>>> ruts, Model S and Model X's ...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> +
> >>>>> https://www.teslarati.com/verne-troyer-tesla-model-s-
> >> kids-unboxing-video/
> >>>>> Verne Troyer just got a Tesla Model S for Kids and says it’s a beast
> >>>>> December 28, 2017  Not long after, Troyer began his “unboxing” of the
> >>>>> Model
> >>>>> S for Kids, where he gave a surprisingly complete rundown of the
> >> miniature
> >>>>> vehicle's features. During the course of the video, Troyer showed off
> >> the
> >>>>> miniature car's frunk, Tesla-branded charger, and its battery pack.
> The
> >>>>> Austin Powers star also took ...
> >>>>> https://youtu.be/6K_nTNvyTtE
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://www.nrdc.org/experts/noah-garcia/good-news-evs-are-n
> >>>>> ot-crashing-grid
> >>>>> Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid
> >>>>> Dec 27, 2017  First, despite fears that EVs would overwhelm the
> >> existing
> >>>>> electric grid infrastructure, only a very minor fraction of them―0.19
> >>>>> percent―have actually necessitated distribution system or service
> line
> >>>>> upgrades. Moreover, this data point has translated to relatively low
> >>>>> levels
> >>>>> of EV-related spending on grid maintenance: of the $5 ...
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
> >>>>> http://evdl.org/archive/
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> {brucedp.neocities.org}
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.
> >> nabble.com/
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >>>>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> >>>>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group
> >>>>> /NEDRA)
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >>>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> >>>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group
> >>>> /NEDRA)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Remember, it is not that the glass is half empty, in reality, the glass
> >> is
> >>> merely twice the size that it needs to be! -TNT'82
> >>> -------------- next part --------------
> >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >>> URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/
> >> attachments/20180101/107ec2ce/attachment.html>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> >>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
> >> group/NEDRA)
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> >> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
> >> group/NEDRA)
> > -------------- next part --------------
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> > _______________________________________________
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
> group/NEDRA)
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
> group/NEDRA)
>
>


--
Remember, it is not that the glass is half empty, in reality, the glass is
merely twice the size that it needs to be! -TNT'82
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Re: Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Mark,
The argument does not pass the smell test.
To me, it sounds like "we have not had this problem before (outages) and thus it must be those new plasma TVs to blame."
It is easy to find a blame instead of being accountable and confess that the investment in infrastructure has not kept
pace with the growt in nr of housing units, increase in electricity use in every house, including additional AirCo and other
heavy users that are not new technology and thus the blame would immediately come back to the energy co,
so it is tempting to find something new so you can blame that and say you were surprised by it, even though it did not
cause the growth in consumption and your own decision not to invest caused the shortages, not the new tech.

But that is just my impression, I did not study the causes for your city's squeeze, but blaming a low power appliance
that uses about the same as the previous tech of the same appliance sounds fishy.
Cor.

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mark Abramowitz via EV
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2018 6:21 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Mark Abramowitz
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid

Dubious or not, our local infrastructure couldn't handle the change in technology coupled with numbers of units in each household. Try telling those who suffered frequent outages that they were imagining it.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 2, 2018, at 5:09 PM, Steve Condie via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> This statement, as written, is dubious.  All flat screen TV's except
> plasma use less electricity than the older CRT sets did - a 50" LED
> set uses less electricity than a 30" CRT.  Plasma is comparable to
> CRT, but plasma TVs never really had a lot of market share, even in
> their brief heyday. What's more, the total energy usage by TV sets is
> minimal compared to HVAC, refrigeration, cooktops, etc.  I think someone's leg was being pulled.
>
> On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 11:42 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV
> <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> You paint too broad a brush.
>>
>> There have been *serious* problems as new technologies have drawn
>> from the grid and increased useage.
>>
>> As plasma and other big screen TVs got big, various parts of my city
>> had serious issues with power outages, as the system wasn't designed
>> for those loads. And these weren't areas that had been there for 100 years.
>> Relatively new housing developments had continuing power problems.  
>> Our City Council had to really squeeze the utility to get capacity
>> increased to handle the loads.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Jan 1, 2018, at 7:33 PM, Thos True via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Peri & All,
>>>
>>> I recall addressing this fear about a decade ago when it the fear
>>> was
>> being
>>> pushed by mainstream media.
>>> The reality is no different than events that have occurred many
>>> times
>> since
>>> the inception of the electrical grid. It is interesting that the
>> utilities
>>> seem to do their best to avoid this conversation.
>>> Some that we might recall were the fears about every house having a
>>> refrigerator and washing machine, then it was the clothes dryer,
>>> followed by microwave ovens & hand held appliances and the hot tub
>>> craze, followed by the air conditioner installations. The air
>>> conditioners do have a noticeable effect on the grid due to a few
>>> factors (1. Grid already stressed due to over heating. 2. Large
>>> numbers in a region using the
>> device
>>> at the same time (large, continuous inrush currents). 3. Extended
>>> periods of load for each device (in excess of 4 hours each).) The
>>> previous example share the relatively short, staggered inrush
>>> current events, followed by lower power demands, which are barely
>>> noticeable, according to the utilities themselves, since most L2
>>> units use the same amount of power per use as the average clothes dryer.
>>>
>>> Tom True
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 7:28 AM, Peri Hartman via EV
>>> <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think this article raises a good question, though I don't really
>>>> think it answers it. Currently, yes, the grid isn't significantly impacted.
>> But
>>>> what about if we had 100% EVs. What about local and long haul trucking?
>>>> What about other ICE powered equipment, e.g. earth movers, etc.?
>>>> What
>> about
>>>> generation capacity as well as distribution capacity?
>>>>
>>>> Personally, our EV boosted our electricity consumption by about
>>>> 10%. I don't know how that number compares in general as, even with
>>>> our EV, our electricity usage is below the national average. Even
>>>> so, that's only accounting for residential EVs. Commercial and
>>>> industrial electricity
>> usage
>>>> is much higher than residential. Is that enough to coincidentally
>> assume a
>>>> 10% figure for non residential EV charging? If this pans out to be
>>>> reasonably true, it would seem that EVs will not, long term, cause
>>>> a significant drain on our generation capacity, if any at all
>>>> (considering time of use).
>>>>
>>>> For distribution, yes, we clearly can't have everyone charging
>>>> their EVs at 5:30pm.  But, as we move more and more to renewables,
>>>> we'll need grid storage anyway and, using the "10% rule", EVs won't
>>>> be a significant factor. The significant factor will be how to get
>>>> Nevada solar to the cloudy Pacific NW or to get Texas wind to
>>>> sticky South Carolina. And
>> how to
>>>> store several days worth to even out nature's effects.
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone have real numbers of the effects of 100% EVs on
>>>> generation
>> and
>>>> distribution?
>>>>
>>>> Peri
>>>>
>>>> https://www.nrdc.org/experts/noah-garcia/good-news-evs-are-n
>>>> ot-crashing-grid
>>>>
>>>> ------ Original Message ------
>>>> From: "brucedp5 via EV" <[hidden email]>
>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>> Cc: "brucedp5" <[hidden email]>
>>>> Sent: 30-Dec-17 10:08:53 PM
>>>> Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20171226
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.
>>>>> com/EVLN-Tesla-3-EV-handling-snow-covered-rutted-off-road-
>>>>> track-on-standard-tires-v-tp4689040.html
>>>>> EVLN: Tesla-3 EV handling snow-covered rutted off-road track on
>> standard
>>>>> tires (v)
>>>>> The current versions of Tesla's flagship vehicles control power to
>>>>> all four wheels through dual independently operated electric
>>>>> motors, providing unparalleled traction in even the worst of
>>>>> winter conditions. Short of driving your Tesla through a
>>>>> snow-covered off-road track with deep,
>> muddy
>>>>> ruts, Model S and Model X's ...
>>>>>
>>>>> +
>>>>> https://www.teslarati.com/verne-troyer-tesla-model-s-
>> kids-unboxing-video/
>>>>> Verne Troyer just got a Tesla Model S for Kids and says itfs a
>>>>> beast December 28, 2017  Not long after, Troyer began his
>>>>> gunboxingh of the Model S for Kids, where he gave a surprisingly
>>>>> complete rundown of the
>> miniature
>>>>> vehicle's features. During the course of the video, Troyer showed
>>>>> off
>> the
>>>>> miniature car's frunk, Tesla-branded charger, and its battery
>>>>> pack. The Austin Powers star also took ...
>>>>> https://youtu.be/6K_nTNvyTtE
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.nrdc.org/experts/noah-garcia/good-news-evs-are-n
>>>>> ot-crashing-grid
>>>>> Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid Dec 27, 2017  First,
>>>>> despite fears that EVs would overwhelm the
>> existing
>>>>> electric grid infrastructure, only a very minor fraction of
>>>>> them\0.19 percent\have actually necessitated distribution system
>>>>> or service line upgrades. Moreover, this data point has translated
>>>>> to relatively low levels of EV-related spending on grid
>>>>> maintenance: of the $5 ...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
>>>>> http://evdl.org/archive/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.
>> nabble.com/
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>>>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>>>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>>>>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group
>>>>> /NEDRA)
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>>>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group
>>>> /NEDRA)
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Remember, it is not that the glass is half empty, in reality, the
>>> glass
>> is
>>> merely twice the size that it needs to be! -TNT'82
>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
>>> scrubbed...
>>> URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/
>> attachments/20180101/107ec2ce/attachment.html>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
>> group/NEDRA)
>> _______________________________________________
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
>> group/NEDRA)
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> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
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Re: Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Tom,

It was during the summer, which certainly exascerbated the situation.  But that was planned for.

(And it wasn't EVSE's. At that time, the only EVs out there were the RAV4-EVs)

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 3, 2018, at 12:13 PM, Thos True via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Mark,
>
> Just curious what time of year the outages have been occurring at. If it is
> during the summer, I would expect that the cause has more to do with a
> large use of hvac units, not televisions or evse's. If during winter, then
> it probably has to do with unexpected increase in heating demands. How fast
> is the housing unit growth in the neighborhood? The utility may not be
> increasing the power in ratio to the # of units coming online.
>
> -Tom
>
> On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 6:20 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Dubious or not, our local infrastructure couldn't handle the change in
>> technology coupled with numbers of units in each household. Try telling
>> those who suffered frequent outages that they were imagining it.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>>> On Jan 2, 2018, at 5:09 PM, Steve Condie via EV <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> This statement, as written, is dubious.  All flat screen TV's except
>> plasma
>>> use less electricity than the older CRT sets did - a 50" LED set uses
>> less
>>> electricity than a 30" CRT.  Plasma is comparable to CRT, but plasma TVs
>>> never really had a lot of market share, even in their brief heyday.
>> What's
>>> more, the total energy usage by TV sets is minimal compared to HVAC,
>>> refrigeration, cooktops, etc.  I think someone's leg was being pulled.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 11:42 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV <
>> [hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You paint too broad a brush.
>>>>
>>>> There have been *serious* problems as new technologies have drawn from
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Re: Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid

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Hey Peri

I agree there has been some reduction in dirty energy (our province was 90%
coal for power just 10 years ago).  We have a link between Newfoundland
established where they are setting up a major hydro project, but that
environmental concerns of its own.  We have wind and solar as well but NS
power gives very little for feed in rates and has proposed capping on the
size on installations.  The major problem is that the Federal government is
mandating a carbon tax and where NS has been using efficiency NS and has
reduced power, they argue they should be excluded.  It  somewhat makes
sense however our carbon power systems will remain online longer and EV
carbon efficiency & adoption will potentially suffer.

Thanks
Dan


On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 12:07 PM, Peri Hartman via EV <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> First, congrats to NS for a great program. That's significant to use 9%
> less energy for the province than in 2008. The first thought that comes to
> mind for increased energy demand is to use the grid and buy it elsewhere.
> Ultimately, the carbon based plants in NS will need to be replaced but the
> grid will likely need improving, too. Why not do that first? People who
> choose can even by green power using RECs. In the mean time, solar and wind
> will become even more effective than today, giving a better return on
> investment if built-out later.
>
> Peri
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Dan Baker via EV" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "Dan Baker" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: 03-Jan-18 7:38:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid
>
> So we have an interesting conundrum in my province (Nova Scotia).  NS
>> decided to concentrate their efforts on saving energy instead of cleaning
>> it up first.  This makes sense as the most efficient watt is the watt that
>> was never used which I agree with.  They created an organization called
>> Efficiency Nova Scotia, which helps our sole power company's residential
>> and business customers save energy with credits for retrofits on lighting,
>> industrial equipment, even data centers in which I do audits for.  It has
>> worked great - the province is using 9% less power since 2008 despite high
>> growth in many areas.  The power company is happy because it doesn't have
>> to add more infrastructure, natural gas plants, etc.  The problem of
>> course
>> is when we start using electric cars, will that 9% disappear with the
>> additional 10% from EVs?  How will Efficiency NS work if the grid's
>> requirements increase?  Worse is the fact that the energy created here to
>> charge electric vehicles still comes mostly from polluting sources - see
>> article here
>> http://halifaxchronicle.can.newsmemory.com/publink.php?shareid=034660fc3
>> There is a somewhat valid argument that an electric car used in NS isn't
>> that much better than a hybrid or even a gas car which lends some minds
>> down here to think an EV really isn't worth it to buy or even give an
>> incentive for.  I have argued there is a lot more EV value than just C02 -
>> where it is emitted, the lower cost of ownership, our infrastructure and
>> attracting young talent will eventually suffer if we don't keep up with
>> this modernization.
>>
>> Would love to hear your feedback!
>>
>> Cheers
>> Dan
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 2, 2018 at 6:12 PM, paul dove via EV <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> What city do you live in?
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> > On Jan 2, 2018, at 7:17 AM, Michael Ross via EV <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > " Our City Council had to really squeeze the utility to get capacity
>>> > increased to handle the loads."
>>> >
>>> > You might say that the electric utilities are crashing the grid by not
>>> > recognizing the need to respond to change.  EV use will grow, but not
>>> too
>>> > quickly - in the present when the electric grid should be trying to
>>> keep
>>> > pace it is not, because of intransigence and the influence of
>>> established
>>> > interests.
>>> >
>>> > Short term, stockholders may see better returns, but long term building
>>> now
>>> > would pay off even better. That is not how the market and finance seems
>>> to
>>> > work these days. Instead it is let's bundle some paper and charge some
>>> > fees; not let's rebuild, reinforce and improve infrastructure.
>>> >
>>> > BentMIke
>>> >
>>> > <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&
>>> utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
>>> > Virus-free.
>>> > www.avg.com
>>> > <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&
>>> utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
>>> > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>> >
>>> > On Tue, Jan 2, 2018 at 2:42 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV <
>>> [hidden email]>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> You paint too broad a brush.
>>> >>
>>> >> There have been *serious* problems as new technologies have drawn from
>>> the
>>> >> grid and increased useage.
>>> >>
>>> >> As plasma and other big screen TVs got big, various parts of my city
>>> had
>>> >> serious issues with power outages, as the system wasn't designed for
>>> those
>>> >> loads. And these weren't areas that had been there for 100 years.
>>> >> Relatively new housing developments had continuing power problems.
>>> Our
>>> >> City Council had to really squeeze the utility to get capacity
>>> increased to
>>> >> handle the loads.
>>> >>
>>> >> Sent from my iPhone
>>> >>
>>> >>> On Jan 1, 2018, at 7:33 PM, Thos True via EV <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Peri & All,
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I recall addressing this fear about a decade ago when it the fear was
>>> >> being
>>> >>> pushed by mainstream media.
>>> >>> The reality is no different than events that have occurred many times
>>> >> since
>>> >>> the inception of the electrical grid. It is interesting that the
>>> >> utilities
>>> >>> seem to do their best to avoid this conversation.
>>> >>> Some that we might recall were the fears about every house having a
>>> >>> refrigerator and washing machine, then it was the clothes dryer,
>>> followed
>>> >>> by microwave ovens & hand held appliances and the hot tub craze,
>>> followed
>>> >>> by the air conditioner installations. The air conditioners do have a
>>> >>> noticeable effect on the grid due to a few factors (1. Grid already
>>> >>> stressed due to over heating. 2. Large numbers in a region using the
>>> >> device
>>> >>> at the same time (large, continuous inrush currents). 3. Extended
>>> periods
>>> >>> of load for each device (in excess of 4 hours each).)
>>> >>> The previous example share the relatively short, staggered inrush
>>> current
>>> >>> events, followed by lower power demands, which are barely noticeable,
>>> >>> according to the utilities themselves, since most L2 units use the
>>> same
>>> >>> amount of power per use as the average clothes dryer.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Tom True
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 7:28 AM, Peri Hartman via EV <
>>> [hidden email]>
>>> >>> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> I think this article raises a good question, though I don't really
>>> think
>>> >>>> it answers it. Currently, yes, the grid isn't significantly
>>> impacted.
>>> >> But
>>> >>>> what about if we had 100% EVs. What about local and long haul
>>> trucking?
>>> >>>> What about other ICE powered equipment, e.g. earth movers, etc.?
>>> What
>>> >> about
>>> >>>> generation capacity as well as distribution capacity?
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Personally, our EV boosted our electricity consumption by about
>>> 10%. I
>>> >>>> don't know how that number compares in general as, even with our EV,
>>> our
>>> >>>> electricity usage is below the national average. Even so, that's
>>> only
>>> >>>> accounting for residential EVs. Commercial and industrial
>>> electricity
>>> >> usage
>>> >>>> is much higher than residential. Is that enough to coincidentally
>>> >> assume a
>>> >>>> 10% figure for non residential EV charging? If this pans out to be
>>> >>>> reasonably true, it would seem that EVs will not, long term, cause a
>>> >>>> significant drain on our generation capacity, if any at all
>>> (considering
>>> >>>> time of use).
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> For distribution, yes, we clearly can't have everyone charging their
>>> EVs
>>> >>>> at 5:30pm.  But, as we move more and more to renewables, we'll need
>>> grid
>>> >>>> storage anyway and, using the "10% rule", EVs won't be a significant
>>> >>>> factor. The significant factor will be how to get Nevada solar to
>>> the
>>> >>>> cloudy Pacific NW or to get Texas wind to sticky South Carolina. And
>>> >> how to
>>> >>>> store several days worth to even out nature's effects.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Does anyone have real numbers of the effects of 100% EVs on
>>> generation
>>> >> and
>>> >>>> distribution?
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Peri
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> https://www.nrdc.org/experts/noah-garcia/good-news-evs-are-n
>>> >>>> ot-crashing-grid
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> ------ Original Message ------
>>> >>>> From: "brucedp5 via EV" <[hidden email]>
>>> >>>> To: [hidden email]
>>> >>>> Cc: "brucedp5" <[hidden email]>
>>> >>>> Sent: 30-Dec-17 10:08:53 PM
>>> >>>> Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20171226
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.
>>> >>>>> com/EVLN-Tesla-3-EV-handling-snow-covered-rutted-off-road-
>>> >>>>> track-on-standard-tires-v-tp4689040.html
>>> >>>>> EVLN: Tesla-3 EV handling snow-covered rutted off-road track on
>>> >> standard
>>> >>>>> tires (v)
>>> >>>>> The current versions of Tesla's flagship vehicles control power to
>>> all
>>> >>>>> four
>>> >>>>> wheels through dual independently operated electric motors,
>>> providing
>>> >>>>> unparalleled traction in even the worst of winter conditions. Short
>>> of
>>> >>>>> driving your Tesla through a snow-covered off-road track with deep,
>>> >> muddy
>>> >>>>> ruts, Model S and Model X's ...
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> +
>>> >>>>> https://www.teslarati.com/verne-troyer-tesla-model-s-
>>> >> kids-unboxing-video/
>>> >>>>> Verne Troyer just got a Tesla Model S for Kids and says it’s a
>>> beast
>>> >>>>> December 28, 2017  Not long after, Troyer began his “unboxing” of
>>> the
>>> >>>>> Model
>>> >>>>> S for Kids, where he gave a surprisingly complete rundown of the
>>> >> miniature
>>> >>>>> vehicle's features. During the course of the video, Troyer showed
>>> off
>>> >> the
>>> >>>>> miniature car's frunk, Tesla-branded charger, and its battery pack.
>>> The
>>> >>>>> Austin Powers star also took ...
>>> >>>>> https://youtu.be/6K_nTNvyTtE
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> https://www.nrdc.org/experts/noah-garcia/good-news-evs-are-n
>>> >>>>> ot-crashing-grid
>>> >>>>> Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid
>>> >>>>> Dec 27, 2017  First, despite fears that EVs would overwhelm the
>>> >> existing
>>> >>>>> electric grid infrastructure, only a very minor fraction of
>>> them―0.19
>>> >>>>> percent―have actually necessitated distribution system or service
>>> line
>>> >>>>> upgrades. Moreover, this data point has translated to relatively
>>> low
>>> >>>>> levels
>>> >>>>> of EV-related spending on grid maintenance: of the $5 ...
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
>>> >>>>> http://evdl.org/archive/
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> --
>>> >>>>> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.
>>> >> nabble.com/
>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>> >>>>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>> >>>>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group
>>> >>>>> /NEDRA)
>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>> >>>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>> >>>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group
>>> >>>> /NEDRA)
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> --
>>> >>> Remember, it is not that the glass is half empty, in reality, the
>>> glass
>>> >> is
>>> >>> merely twice the size that it needs to be! -TNT'82
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>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>> >>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>> >>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
>>> >> group/NEDRA)
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>> >> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>> >> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
>>> >> group/NEDRA)
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Michael E. Ross
>>> > (919) 585-6737 Land
>>> > (19) 901-2805 Cell and Text
>>> > (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Tablet,
>>> > Google Phone and Text
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>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>> > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
>>> group/NEDRA)
>>> >
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
>>> group/NEDRA)
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> /NEDRA)
>
>
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Re: Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Hey Daryl
Great to meet another EVDL Canadian member!  Thanks for the kudos and yes
would love to see that Elec-Trak, didn't know any actually made it to
Canada!  I don't know David or Jeff but I certainly don't think they wanted
their story to be used against EVs but somehow it is.  I started a FB group
for EVs in NS and one gentleman stated that he wouldn't trade in his Prius
for an EV until NS cleaned up their power generation.  Yes they still have
that time of day program ( my sister has an ETS heat unit and uses it), I
am considering it but the Volt I just got typically doesn't take that much
electricity, will have to look at the bill when it coms and see how much
difference it makes.
On the Facebook EV group, there is a woman who say she bought a Leaf and
drove it down from Ontario and used the finished New Brunswick charging
infrastructure.  So apparently it's possible already!

Cheers
Dan

On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 2:50 PM, Darryl McMahon via EV <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi Dan,
>
> I'm 'down the road' in Ontario, but with NS roots (Annapolis Valley and
> Pictou County).  I've met David Swan a couple of times, and corresponded
> with Jeff Dahn.  I enjoyed your SnowPig video (and I hope to pick up more
> front lift motors on Friday to put my Elec-Trak snow team back into action).
>
> I think Efficiency NS is likely wearing the same blinders that Ontario's
> "Conservation First" continues to hold dear.  Focus only on grid
> electricity use (kWh), and ignore any potential for substituting
> renewables, going for major efficiency gains, or having any concept that
> using more electricity could actually be the BETTER option (relative say to
> using more natural gas, gasoline, diesel or heating oil).  (E.g., I could
> get an incentive to shift from an electric hot water tank to a natural gas
> hot water tank, but not to go from a natural gas hot water tank to a solar
> pre-heat system (no electric power reduction).  The Ontario program is
> pretty half-hearted anyway; clearly afraid of reducing baseload demand
> which justifies continued over-investment in their CANDU nuclear fleet.
>
> Nova Scotia Power used to have an incentive program for lower price
> electricity during the overnight period for 'charging' a heat storage
> unit.  Looks like that program is still in place. (
> https://www.nspower.ca/en/home/for-my-home/heating-solution
> s/electric-thermal-storage/default.aspx)  Perhaps NSP could be coaxed
> into seeing EVs as a similar proposition, and provide TOU pricing for EV
> households.
>
> Speaking of EVs in NS, I just saw the announcement there will finally be a
> province-wide EV network (12 stations) by summer 2018.  Hmmm, may finally
> be able to take the trip from Ontario to NS in our 2017 Leaf this year.
>
> Wind power continues to grow in NS (and the winds seem to be getting
> stronger in recent years), and Bay of Fundy tidal remains to be tapped in a
> significant way.
>
> Darryl McMahon
>
> On 1/3/2018 10:38 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
>> Message: 10
>> Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 11:38:30 -0400
>> From: Dan Baker<[hidden email]>
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid
>> Message-ID:
>>         <CAMJJmqvaVk_h4t8yM+q8oO93oy1=[hidden email]
>> ail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>>
>> So we have an interesting conundrum in my province (Nova Scotia).  NS
>> decided to concentrate their efforts on saving energy instead of cleaning
>> it up first.  This makes sense as the most efficient watt is the watt that
>> was never used which I agree with.  They created an organization called
>> Efficiency Nova Scotia, which helps our sole power company's residential
>> and business customers save energy with credits for retrofits on lighting,
>> industrial equipment, even data centers in which I do audits for.  It has
>> worked great - the province is using 9% less power since 2008 despite high
>> growth in many areas.  The power company is happy because it doesn't have
>> to add more infrastructure, natural gas plants, etc.  The problem of
>> course
>> is when we start using electric cars, will that 9% disappear with the
>> additional 10% from EVs?  How will Efficiency NS work if the grid's
>> requirements increase?  Worse is the fact that the energy created here to
>> charge electric vehicles still comes mostly from polluting sources - see
>> article here
>> http://halifaxchronicle.can.newsmemory.com/publink.php?shareid=034660fc3
>> There is a somewhat valid argument that an electric car used in NS isn't
>> that much better than a hybrid or even a gas car which lends some minds
>> down here to think an EV really isn't worth it to buy or even give an
>> incentive for.  I have argued there is a lot more EV value than just C02 -
>> where it is emitted, the lower cost of ownership, our infrastructure and
>> attracting young talent will eventually suffer if we don't keep up with
>> this modernization.
>>
>> Would love to hear your feedback!
>>
>> Cheers
>> Dan
>>
>
> --
> Darryl McMahon
> Freelance Project Manager (sustainable systems)
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group
> /NEDRA)
>
>
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Re: Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
It is fair and well deserved criticism for the utility I am subject to. We
do not have many plug ins here (very little Tesla presence, and no fast
chargers I have seen). Most solar is utility scale -Duke has successfully
squelched residential solar so far. No third party sales are allowed.

They have incredible pull in the ridiculous legislature here. They pay
their CEO $12M a year. Our recently former governor was a longtime employee
of Duke, and is again consulting with them.

A characteristic of Duke is to resist allowing anything on the grid they do
not control fully.  Consequently, they do not want to invest in EV
supporting infrastructure.  I sat in on a panel discussion with the VP in
charge of renewable energy and listened to him paint residential solar
owners as evil doers. The state uitlilties commission panelist sounded very
circumspect and attentive to the utilities; not partial at all to promoting
anything Duke did not want..

In return for their controlling nature I pay little for s kWhr ($0.11),
there is a downward pressure on rates due to residential solar that does
benefit us all, but if you aren't somewhat moneyed you won't get much help
erecting residential solar.

So here in NC is it is not anything about the speed and change of tech
uptake, they are simply resisting it to the best of their ability. There
has been a lot of activism to promote a better grid here for more than a
decade - not much action though.  I know what I am talking about locally.



On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 9:14 AM, Mark Abramowitz <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I'm no fan of the utilities, but that's not a fair criticism. The change
> and uptake of the technology was unexpected and quick, and could not have
> been predicted when the infrastructure was built.
>

--
Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(19) 901-2805 Cell and Text
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Tablet,
Google Phone and Text




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No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

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https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1114558_no-electric-cars-still-arent-crashing-the-grid-again
No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again.
Jan 3, 2018 ... Remember all those brownouts we experienced last week
because everyone plugged in their electric cars? No? Oh right, that didn't
happen. It still isn't happening. And it's unlikely to ever happen. That's
the conclusion of a study by the Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC),
using infrastructure investment data from ...




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

--
Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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Re: No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

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Mail at night!
I suspect that in 20 years, the post office, UPS and Amazon and all long
haul trucking and deliveries will all be at night.  Think of the benefit
to the grid and everyone (including reduced traffic congestion).  All
those battries storing energy all day long and then being used at night as
a great balance to the grid.

With solar, day will become the new night, with the cheapest energy
available during the day.  Already is in California.

Bob


-----Original Message-----
Subject: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid.
Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1114558_no-electric-cars-still-arent-
crashing-the-grid-again
No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again.
Jan 3, 2018 ... Remember all those brownouts we experienced last week
because everyone plugged in their electric cars? No? Oh right, that didn't
happen. It still isn't happening. And it's unlikely to ever happen. That's
the conclusion of a study by the Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC),
using infrastructure investment data from ...
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Re: No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

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On Thu Jan 04 07:41:44 PST 2018 [hidden email] said:
>Mail at night!
>I suspect that in 20 years, the post office, UPS and Amazon and all long
>haul trucking and deliveries will all be at night.  Think of the benefit
>to the grid and everyone (including reduced traffic congestion).  All
>those battries storing energy all day long and then being used at night as
>a great balance to the grid.

Actually, that is the reverse of what you want.
You want to store during the night when demand is low, then use during the day when demand is hi.


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Re: No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

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You are implying that shipping docks will be manned all night long in this
scenario. Or that residential or postal workers will want to try to deliver
in the dark. There are very real downsides to tripping around in the night,
and 3rd shift work is bad for health.

When I was delivering furniture in the 80's I often chose to do the travel
(as opposed to delivery) at night to avoid the danger and boredom of
gridlock. But I would definitely not have enjoyed invading customers
driveways and landscape at night.  I think residential night delivery is
not a good idea.

Night delivery isn't a totally bad idea, but it might be hard to work out
the logistics.

Over the road is already a nighttime operation for many.

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On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 10:50 AM, John Lussmyer via EV <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On Thu Jan 04 07:41:44 PST 2018 [hidden email] said:
> >Mail at night!
> >I suspect that in 20 years, the post office, UPS and Amazon and all long
> >haul trucking and deliveries will all be at night.  Think of the benefit
> >to the grid and everyone (including reduced traffic congestion).  All
> >those battries storing energy all day long and then being used at night as
> >a great balance to the grid.
>
> Actually, that is the reverse of what you want.
> You want to store during the night when demand is low, then use during the
> day when demand is hi.
>
>
> --
>
> Try my Sensible Email package!  https://sourceforge.net/
> projects/sensibleemail/
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
> group/NEDRA)
>
>


--
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(919) 585-6737 Land
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Re: No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

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On 4 Jan 2018 at 7:50, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:

> Actually, that is the reverse of what you want. You want to store
> during the night when demand is low, then use during the day when
> demand is hi.

It's certainly the opposite of what we do now.

Robert seems to be suggesting that in the future we'll store energy when
PRODUCTION (solar) is high (day), and use that energy when the production is
zero (night).

That assumes that PV becomes the dominant energy source for the postal
service, at least.  I suppose it could happen, but honestly, I don't see it
as very likely in the US.  From what I can tell, the USPS is not an
especially forward-looking operation.  I'm surprised that they're even
considering EVs for their new long-life vehicle design, and will be VERY
surprised if they actually buy and keep using a significant number of them.

Solar-powered postal delivery seems more possible (though still not all that
likely) somewhere in the EU, say France or Germany.  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

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Bob Bruninga said (in part):
> With solar, day will become the new night, with the cheapest energy
available during the day. Already is in California.
 
 
Where are you getting that?  That is certainly not true.  Demand is still highest during the day (or with the current weather that results in very little air conditioning load, during dinner).  As soon as the weather warms up, air conditioning load drives the electric consumption to the highest loads (and therefore, prices).  Yes, solar offsets some of the air conditioning load, but FAR from all of it.
This week, most of California is cold (by our standards), but clear.  That means that the AC load is very small, but solar is doing pretty well (for winter months).  Looking at yesterday's chart from the California Independent System Operator (the people who manage bulk power statewide), the largest difference between total demand and net demand (total minus solar and wind) was about 10:25 AM.  That seems a little odd since that is hours before normal peak solar hour.  The chart does not differentiate between solar and wind.  There is a different chart that does break down sources of renewable energy.  It confirms that the solar peak was about 10:25.  As I type this (08:25 AM) solar is producing 2,828 MW and wind is 86 MW.  This constitutes about 62% of renewable sources, and all renewable sources constitute 18.5% of total demand.
 
If you want to see what it's doing, check out:   http://www.caiso.com
 
73
-----
Jim Walls - K6CCC
[hidden email]
 
 
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Re: No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

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Thanks for the LIVE California load page. That page today shows the famous
Duck's back curve that is developing in California.  Yes, today (in
winter), the curve still has the demand higher during the day than at
night.  But that same curve during the spring and fall does go negative in
the middle of the day and that is the infamous "Duck's Back Curve" that
will only get worse:
https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/the-california-duck-curve-is-
real-and-bigger-than-expected#gs.4kJv=1w

For the typical march in 2016 in California, daytime load is 20% less than
the overnight load due to solar.  And it is only going to go down farther
as more people realize how solar is now cheaper than the utility in most
states... and it makes no sense not to invest in solar.  Meanwhile
electric costs at night will go up.

When electricity gets so cheap in the day, then we will see life style
changes simply as an economic result.  Such as charging EV's during the
day ... and there are two ways to do that.  1) Charging at work for
commuters, and 2) charging during the day and moving some driving to
night.  The batteries in EV's are there.  Economic advantages will take
advantage of them...

Bob, WB4APR


-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of jim--- via EV
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 11:30 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid.
Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...


Bob Bruninga said (in part):
> With solar, day will become the new night, with the cheapest energy
available during the day. Already is in California.


Where are you getting that?  That is certainly not true.  Demand is still
highest during the day (or with the current weather that results in very
little air conditioning load, during dinner).  As soon as the weather
warms up, air conditioning load drives the electric consumption to the
highest loads (and therefore, prices).  Yes, solar offsets some of the air
conditioning load, but FAR from all of it.
This week, most of California is cold (by our standards), but clear.  That
means that the AC load is very small, but solar is doing pretty well (for
winter months).  Looking at yesterday's chart from the California
Independent System Operator (the people who manage bulk power statewide),
the largest difference between total demand and net demand (total minus
solar and wind) was about 10:25 AM.  That seems a little odd since that is
hours before normal peak solar hour.  The chart does not differentiate
between solar and wind.  There is a different chart that does break down
sources of renewable energy.  It confirms that the solar peak was about
10:25.  As I type this (08:25 AM) solar is producing 2,828 MW and wind is
86 MW.  This constitutes about 62% of renewable sources, and all renewable
sources constitute 18.5% of total demand.

If you want to see what it's doing, check out:   http://www.caiso.com

73
-----
Jim Walls - K6CCC
[hidden email]
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Re: No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

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I disagree on the batteries are "there."  I doubt we can store the "energy
of man" in batteries.  And currently we are no where near close to that.
It is too much, and we won't be able to use batteries for that kind of
massive storage.

I think Musk estimated 250 Gigfactories just to do all EVs, let alone other
industrial and residential uses.

The grid is a super storage medium.  If we were more interconnected
worldwide, then a series of large solar arrays could do it all.  You just
need enough of them facing the sun at any given time and then batteries can
take their better place as mobile storage. This arrangement beats the heck
out of digging all the copper and cobalt needed for stationary storage.



On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 12:19 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Thanks for the LIVE California load page. That page today shows the famous
> ​ ... SNIP​
>
> ​
>
...

>
> ​"​
> The batteries in EV's are there.
> ​"​
>
> ​ ...
>
>
> Bob, WB4APR
>
> --
Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(19) 901-2805 Cell and Text
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Tablet,
Google Phone and Text




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Bob Bruninga said (in part):
> Thanks for the LIVE California load page. That page today shows the famous
Duck's back curve that is developing in California.  Yes, today (in
winter), the curve still has the demand higher during the day than at
night.  But that same curve during the spring and fall does go negative in
the middle of the day and that is the infamous "Duck's Back Curve" that
will only get worse:
[ https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/the-california-duck-curve-is- ]( https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/the-california-duck-curve-is- )
real-and-bigger-than-expected#gs.4kJv=1w
 
 
March yes, but not in the summer - and only very late fall (we get our hottest heat spells in September and October).  Not for a very long time anyway.  Conveniently peak solar is at least sort of when peak air conditioning load is, but we're a long ways from carrying the AC load with solar.
BTW, pull up satellite view on google Earth some time and take a look at how much solar there is here in California - it's a LOT.  Particularly in the commercial sector.  Look at almost any large retail store or mall, and solar abounds.  Not everywhere of course, but a lot and it's growing daily.
 
 
73
-----
Jim Walls - K6CCC
[ [hidden email] ]( mailto:[hidden email] )
 
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Actually,
you'd want to store (renewable) energy when there is a surplus.
The market for grid storage is fast growing and I hear little about the
old tech of
rotating (flywheel) storage and adding pumped storage is not easy to
grow either
due to real estate, the only area that I hear massive investments in is
in battery.

Surprisingly, one of the ways to add storage and stabilize the grid is
by installing
a specific version of Fast Charger. While the Fast Charger is often
villified for its
potential to upset the grid due to high and unexpected loads, it can
also be installed
with battery storage that allows low installation cost due to requiring
only a moderately
amount of connected power with the battery averaging the load out over a
longer period
but at the same time allowing the battery to be used in demand load
control and possibly
even in power generation, depending how the electronics is set up.

This allows a Fast Charge station to be installed in a residence of a
(wealthy) individual
without need to change the service connection, a simple 240V 50A
connection can charge
a battery bank overnight if needed, or whenever it is cheaper or more
desirable to pull
electricity off the grid, in addition a (large) PV system can feed into
the bank, to give it
power when a grid failure occurs.
Charging from the bank can happen at any speed that the batteries and
the electronics
can sustain, 50 or even 100kW power is no problem, even while the grid
connection
peaks at 12kW.

BTW, this system already exists, EMW has developed it and when this gets
rolled out,
it is a great addition to the ever increasing grid storage.
Note: there is no reason the house could not be powered from this as
well, so essentially
it becomes a "PowerWall".
The vision that I have is that an affordable version of this system can
be offered with *used*
EV batteries as the requirements for weight and size are much less in
stationary installations
and this gives a good second hand market for used batteries from EV.

Cor.

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of John Lussmyer
via EV
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 7:50 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: John Lussmyer
Subject: Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid.
Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

On Thu Jan 04 07:41:44 PST 2018 [hidden email] said:
>Mail at night!
>I suspect that in 20 years, the post office, UPS and Amazon and all
>long haul trucking and deliveries will all be at night.  Think of the
>benefit to the grid and everyone (including reduced traffic
>congestion).  All those battries storing energy all day long and then
>being used at night as a great balance to the grid.

Actually, that is the reverse of what you want.
You want to store during the night when demand is low, then use during
the day when demand is hi.


--

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It gets dark this time of year before 5 pm and they delivered packages to my house up to 9 PM during the holidays.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 4, 2018, at 10:11 AM, Michael Ross via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> You are implying that shipping docks will be manned all night long in this
> scenario. Or that residential or postal workers will want to try to deliver
> in the dark. There are very real downsides to tripping around in the night,
> and 3rd shift work is bad for health.
>
> When I was delivering furniture in the 80's I often chose to do the travel
> (as opposed to delivery) at night to avoid the danger and boredom of
> gridlock. But I would definitely not have enjoyed invading customers
> driveways and landscape at night.  I think residential night delivery is
> not a good idea.
>
> Night delivery isn't a totally bad idea, but it might be hard to work out
> the logistics.
>
> Over the road is already a nighttime operation for many.
>
> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
> Virus-free.
> www.avg.com
> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
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>
> On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 10:50 AM, John Lussmyer via EV <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu Jan 04 07:41:44 PST 2018 [hidden email] said:
>>> Mail at night!
>>> I suspect that in 20 years, the post office, UPS and Amazon and all long
>>> haul trucking and deliveries will all be at night.  Think of the benefit
>>> to the grid and everyone (including reduced traffic congestion).  All
>>> those battries storing energy all day long and then being used at night as
>>> a great balance to the grid.
>>
>> Actually, that is the reverse of what you want.
>> You want to store during the night when demand is low, then use during the
>> day when demand is hi.
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Try my Sensible Email package!  https://sourceforge.net/
>> projects/sensibleemail/
>> _______________________________________________
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
>> group/NEDRA)
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 585-6737 Land
> (19) 901-2805 Cell and Text
> (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Tablet,
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Use recycled EV batteries for grid storage

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 4, 2018, at 11:35 AM, Michael Ross via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I disagree on the batteries are "there."  I doubt we can store the "energy
> of man" in batteries.  And currently we are no where near close to that.
> It is too much, and we won't be able to use batteries for that kind of
> massive storage.
>
> I think Musk estimated 250 Gigfactories just to do all EVs, let alone other
> industrial and residential uses.
>
> The grid is a super storage medium.  If we were more interconnected
> worldwide, then a series of large solar arrays could do it all.  You just
> need enough of them facing the sun at any given time and then batteries can
> take their better place as mobile storage. This arrangement beats the heck
> out of digging all the copper and cobalt needed for stationary storage.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 12:19 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the LIVE California load page. That page today shows the famous
>> ​ ... SNIP​
>>
>> ​
>>
> ...
>>
>> ​"​
>> The batteries in EV's are there.
>> ​"​
>>
>> ​ ...
>>
>>
>> Bob, WB4APR
>>
>> --
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 585-6737 Land
> (19) 901-2805 Cell and Text
> (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Tablet,
> Google Phone and Text
>
>
>
>
> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
> Virus-free.
> www.avg.com
> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
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Michael Ross said (in part):
> The grid is a super storage medium. If we were more interconnected
worldwide, then a series of large solar arrays could do it all. You just
need enough of them facing the sun at any given time and then batteries can
take their better place as mobile storage. This arrangement beats the heck
out of digging all the copper and cobalt needed for stationary storage.
 
 
Unfortunately not practical.  Transmission line losses if nothing else would rule it out.  There are other issues as well.
 
 
Jim
 
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