EVLN: Electric NYC Gabby Cabbies Need Level-3 Access (videos)

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EVLN: Electric NYC Gabby Cabbies Need Level-3 Access (videos)

brucedp5

NY Leafs in Springtime
% NYC Taxi EVs will need L3 to succeed %

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/22/nyregion/electric-taxi-experiment-to-begin-in-new-york.html?_r=0
[image] Electric-Taxi Experiment Asks if City’s Cabbies Can Spare the Time to Plug In
By MATT FLEGENHEIMER  Apr 21 2013

[image  
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2013/04/22/nyregion/taxi/taxi-articleLarge-v2.jpg
The city’s pilot program is using electric Nissan Leafs. Three charging stations are being installed
]

The taxis are not entirely yellow. Their drivers are allowed to refuse certain fares. Even the smell is different, with no oil-rich odor greeting riders at the door.

Months before the city’s Taxi of Tomorrow is scheduled to reach the road, officials have already turned their attention to the type of vehicle that might replace it.

This week, the city will introduce six fully electric taxis into the fleet as part of a pilot program intended primarily to answer a single question: Can yellow-taxi drivers, conditioned to squeeze every fare-generating second out of their shift, find the time to plug in their vehicle while on the job?

“It’s to figure out how a taxi driver can integrate 60 to 90 minutes of charging into a day,” David S. Yassky, the city’s taxi commissioner, said in a telephone interview. “Frankly, just as important, it’s to show other taxi drivers that it can be done.”

Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg has set a goal of having one-third of the city’s taxis electric by 2020. In a statement, he stressed “looking ahead to the taxi of the day after tomorrow,” even though the city’s move to a nearly uniform fleet of Nissan NV200s has yet to start.

Drivers of the pilot’s vehicles, which will be silver and yellow Nissan Leafs, volunteered to participate. They have been afforded certain privileges: Mr. Yassky said cabbies in electric vehicles would be permitted to turn down passengers based on their destinations, to quell any driver concerns about losing a charge in the midst of a trip. “They’re pioneers,” Mr. Yassky said. “We want to give them the leeway.”

Some cabbies have expressed doubts about the viability of an electric taxi, arguing that any charging break would undercut earnings. “You can’t go charge in the middle of your shift,” Fahd Khan, 22, said through a rolled-down cab window in Murray Hill. He will agree to drive an electric vehicle, he said, only if the daily rental rate for his taxi is reduced to compensate him for the charging time.

Officials said charging stations were being installed on the Lower East Side, on the Far West Side and near Union Square. Some drivers have charging stations at their homes, allowing them to charge between shifts.

But Mr. Yassky said all drivers would most likely need to plug their cars in during their shifts. He estimated that 30 minutes of charging allowed a cabby roughly 80 miles of driving in the city. Some drivers said they traveled 100 miles on a typical day.

Bhairavi Desai, the executive director of the New York Taxi Workers Alliance, said that though the prospect of electric taxis sounded “so impractical,” any attempt to curb gasoline costs for drivers was worth exploring — particularly since the city’s Taxi of Tomorrow is not as fuel-efficient as many stakeholders had hoped. A lawsuit has argued that the Taxi of Tomorrow plan violates the city’s administrative code, which, the plaintiffs say, requires that taxi operators have access to a hybrid option.

Given the traditional taxicab’s reputation as a gas-guzzling scourge of air quality, Ms. Desai said, an electric taxi could also carry wider implications. “It would change the public consciousness about fuel efficiency,” she said.

In 2011, Nissan secured a 10-year contract, worth an estimated $1 billion, to be the sole provider of nearly all of the city’s roughly 13,000 taxis. While the Nissan Leaf is unlikely ever to be used widely in the fleet, Mr. Yassky said, an electric version of the more spacious NV200 is expected to be available before the contract expires.

One driver, Yahyia Gassem, 43, said he looked forward to that day, in part because the charging requirement would force him to take a break every shift. “You take a break sometimes longer than that,” he said of the 30 or 40 minutes for charging, adding, “It’s for the environment.”

Another cabby, Haseeb Khan, predicted that electric taxis would thrive if charging stations were placed in areas with “one or two restaurants and washrooms,” allowing drivers to make efficient use of their respite. “For taxi drivers, washroom is the biggest problem,” Mr. Khan said. “We go to Starbucks.”
[© 2013 The New York Times Company]
...
http://www.recargo.com/search?search=ny%2C+ny&commit=Search&filters[]=cha
Currently no CHAdeMO Level-3 EVSE in NY!
% Tell the NYC Mayor to install them all around the city %



http://www.environmental-expert.com/news/nissan-new-york-city-launch-leaf-electric-vehicle-taxi-pilot-368609
Nissan, New York City Launch Leaf Electric Vehicle Taxi Pilot
NEW YORK, April 22, 2013 /PR Newswire/ -- To celebrate Earth Day, Nissan and New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg today launched a new electric [Leaf] taxi pilot ... As part of the pilot, Nissan and partners in New York City will also install several CHAdeMO-based DC quick chargers, which will enable drivers to re-charge their electric taxis quickly during their shift. With quick charging, Nissan LEAF can be recharged to about 80 percent in under 30 minutes.
[Videos of the Nissan LEAF Taxi can be found at: http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/releases/nissan-leaf-taxi
] ...



http://www.mediapost.com/publications/article/198467/nissan-earth-day-leaf-taxi-launch.html#axzz2QrBahXO4
MediaPost Publications Nissan Earth Day Leaf Taxi Launch 04/18 ...
Nissan Earth Day Leaf Taxi Launch - 04/18/2013. ... Nissan and New York's Mayor Michael Bloomberg will officially launch New York's electric ...




For all EVLN posts use:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date

Here are today's archive-only EV posts:

EVLN: FAA approves Boeing 787 Dreamliner battery fix
EVLN: Amarok Racing has its 2013 Pikes Peak Rider
EVLN: EDay Q's, Why are you doing this?
EVLN: Ride Uphill on the 'World's Lightest EV'
EVLN: Plugin Dealers Must Address Consumer Concerns & Set Expectations
+
EVLN: Tesla Wins Direct Sales Case in New York


{brucedp.150m.com}
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Re: EVLN: Electric NYC Gabby Cabbies Need Level-3 Access (videos)

Peri Hartman
I'm optimistic.  If a typical day is 100 miles, it seems likely they should
normally need only one mid-shift charge.  Sounds reasonable to me. I doubt
any taxi driver will get 80 miles per charge, though...

Peri

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of brucedp5
Sent: 23 April, 2013 3:13 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: Electric NYC Gabby Cabbies Need Level-3 Access
(videos)


NY Leafs in Springtime
% NYC Taxi EVs will need L3 to succeed %

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/22/nyregion/electric-taxi-experiment-to-begin
-in-new-york.html?_r=0
[image] Electric-Taxi Experiment Asks if City's Cabbies Can Spare the Time
to Plug In
By MATT FLEGENHEIMER  Apr 21 2013

[image  
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2013/04/22/nyregion/taxi/taxi-articleLar
ge-v2.jpg
The city's pilot program is using electric Nissan Leafs. Three charging
stations are being installed
]

The taxis are not entirely yellow. Their drivers are allowed to refuse
certain fares. Even the smell is different, with no oil-rich odor greeting
riders at the door.

Months before the city's Taxi of Tomorrow is scheduled to reach the road,
officials have already turned their attention to the type of vehicle that
might replace it.

This week, the city will introduce six fully electric taxis into the fleet
as part of a pilot program intended primarily to answer a single question:
Can yellow-taxi drivers, conditioned to squeeze every fare-generating second
out of their shift, find the time to plug in their vehicle while on the job?

"It's to figure out how a taxi driver can integrate 60 to 90 minutes of
charging into a day," David S. Yassky, the city's taxi commissioner, said in
a telephone interview. "Frankly, just as important, it's to show other taxi
drivers that it can be done."

Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg has set a goal of having one-third of the city's
taxis electric by 2020. In a statement, he stressed "looking ahead to the
taxi of the day after tomorrow," even though the city's move to a nearly
uniform fleet of Nissan NV200s has yet to start.

Drivers of the pilot's vehicles, which will be silver and yellow Nissan
Leafs, volunteered to participate. They have been afforded certain
privileges: Mr. Yassky said cabbies in electric vehicles would be permitted
to turn down passengers based on their destinations, to quell any driver
concerns about losing a charge in the midst of a trip. "They're pioneers,"
Mr. Yassky said. "We want to give them the leeway."

Some cabbies have expressed doubts about the viability of an electric taxi,
arguing that any charging break would undercut earnings. "You can't go
charge in the middle of your shift," Fahd Khan, 22, said through a
rolled-down cab window in Murray Hill. He will agree to drive an electric
vehicle, he said, only if the daily rental rate for his taxi is reduced to
compensate him for the charging time.

Officials said charging stations were being installed on the Lower East
Side, on the Far West Side and near Union Square. Some drivers have charging
stations at their homes, allowing them to charge between shifts.

But Mr. Yassky said all drivers would most likely need to plug their cars in
during their shifts. He estimated that 30 minutes of charging allowed a
cabby roughly 80 miles of driving in the city. Some drivers said they
traveled 100 miles on a typical day.

Bhairavi Desai, the executive director of the New York Taxi Workers
Alliance, said that though the prospect of electric taxis sounded "so
impractical," any attempt to curb gasoline costs for drivers was worth
exploring - particularly since the city's Taxi of Tomorrow is not as
fuel-efficient as many stakeholders had hoped. A lawsuit has argued that the
Taxi of Tomorrow plan violates the city's administrative code, which, the
plaintiffs say, requires that taxi operators have access to a hybrid option.

Given the traditional taxicab's reputation as a gas-guzzling scourge of air
quality, Ms. Desai said, an electric taxi could also carry wider
implications. "It would change the public consciousness about fuel
efficiency," she said.

In 2011, Nissan secured a 10-year contract, worth an estimated $1 billion,
to be the sole provider of nearly all of the city's roughly 13,000 taxis.
While the Nissan Leaf is unlikely ever to be used widely in the fleet, Mr.
Yassky said, an electric version of the more spacious NV200 is expected to
be available before the contract expires.

One driver, Yahyia Gassem, 43, said he looked forward to that day, in part
because the charging requirement would force him to take a break every
shift. "You take a break sometimes longer than that," he said of the 30 or
40 minutes for charging, adding, "It's for the environment."

Another cabby, Haseeb Khan, predicted that electric taxis would thrive if
charging stations were placed in areas with "one or two restaurants and
washrooms," allowing drivers to make efficient use of their respite. "For
taxi drivers, washroom is the biggest problem," Mr. Khan said. "We go to
Starbucks."
[C 2013 The New York Times Company]
...
http://www.recargo.com/search?search=ny%2C+ny&commit=Search&filters[]=cha
Currently no CHAdeMO Level-3 EVSE in NY!
% Tell the NYC Mayor to install them all around the city %



http://www.environmental-expert.com/news/nissan-new-york-city-launch-leaf-el
ectric-vehicle-taxi-pilot-368609
Nissan, New York City Launch Leaf Electric Vehicle Taxi Pilot
NEW YORK, April 22, 2013 /PR Newswire/ -- To celebrate Earth Day, Nissan and
New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg today launched a new electric [Leaf]
taxi pilot ... As part of the pilot, Nissan and partners in New York City
will also install several CHAdeMO-based DC quick chargers, which will enable
drivers to re-charge their electric taxis quickly during their shift. With
quick charging, Nissan LEAF can be recharged to about 80 percent in under 30
minutes.
[Videos of the Nissan LEAF Taxi can be found at:
http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/releases/nissan-leaf-taxi
] ...



http://www.mediapost.com/publications/article/198467/nissan-earth-day-leaf-t
axi-launch.html#axzz2QrBahXO4
MediaPost Publications Nissan Earth Day Leaf Taxi Launch 04/18 ...
Nissan Earth Day Leaf Taxi Launch - 04/18/2013. ... Nissan and New York's
Mayor Michael Bloomberg will officially launch New York's electric ...




For all EVLN posts use:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlSe
rvlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date

Here are today's archive-only EV posts:

EVLN: FAA approves Boeing 787 Dreamliner battery fix
EVLN: Amarok Racing has its 2013 Pikes Peak Rider
EVLN: EDay Q's, Why are you doing this?
EVLN: Ride Uphill on the 'World's Lightest EV'
EVLN: Plugin Dealers Must Address Consumer Concerns & Set Expectations
+
EVLN: Tesla Wins Direct Sales Case in New York


{brucedp.150m.com}



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YC-Gabby-Cabbies-Need-Level-3-Access-videos-tp4662605.html
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Re: EVLN: Electric NYC Gabby Cabbies Need Level-3 Access (videos)

brucedp5
[ref
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Electric-NYC-Gabby-Cabbies-Need-Level-3-Access-videos-tp4662605.html
]

Lets remember this NYC Taxi program was not initiated by taxi drivers
wanting to drive EVs, it was thrust upon them by the Mayor. The videos
show somewhat initially willing drivers. I do not foresee them
sabotaging the program unless they have issues that are not being
resolved. Each of them are a small business person: bottom-line/costs
and profits have to work for them; those cabbies will have to see how
much they are saving over ice taxis.

Assuming these Leaf EVs are the newer model with a 6kW on-board charger
capability, ~3 hours to 80%SOC is not going to be familiar: that
downtime may make some cabbies think those 3hrs is time they could be
making money. Those cabbies are quite familiar with a ~20 minute period
to refuel and quick break when driving an ice taxi. If they can charge
at night at home, or if busy, also be able to use public L3 EVSE, that
should help to bridge the transition.

At the bottom of that post, I put another newswire, that states NYC will
have L3. I am concerned, not soon enough. I would have waited on the
launch until the public L3 was in place first. It is all about making it
all the same, yet different.

If you look at that taxi images, am also concerned, that while the the
Leaf taxi paint job looks modern, it has more non-yellow/invisible
surfaces showing. I would have wanted the Leaf taxis be painted like the
NV200 taxis, where they are mostly yellow, as that is what customers
look for to hail a cab. If you look at the nose of the Leaf taxis, they
are mostly silver-color that blends into the background.

It would do harm to the program to have other cars bash into the Leaf
taxis because a few cabbies still driving in their usual wild way, yet
now, other drivers do not see them as easily. When those cabbies drove
that wild way in their ice-taxis, they could get away with it because
the ice-taxis were brightly painted yellow all over = much more visible.
The cause for any bashing won't be remembered as less visible painted
taxis driven by wild driving cabbies, but that they were Electric.


{brucedp.150m.com}



-
On Tue, Apr 23, 2013, at 06:51 AM, Peri Hartman wrote:
> I'm optimistic.  If a typical day is 100 miles, it seems likely they
> should
> normally need only one mid-shift charge.  Sounds reasonable to me. I
> doubt
> any taxi driver will get 80 miles per charge, though...
-

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - Same, same, but different...

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Re: EVLN: Electric NYC Gabby Cabbies Need Level-3 Access (videos)

EVDL Administrator
I suspect that charging breaks is not going to work out too well for drivers
who are already not that well paid.  

IMO, this is the kind of application where swappable batteries make sense.  
What pro photographer would want to wait for his camera to charge and
meanwhile lose good shots?  They all carry spare batteries or even spare
cameras.

Similarly, for this to succeed, they need to provide either swappable
batteries or swappable cabs.  No driver paid by the hour or on commission is
going to want to give up badly needed income while he or she waits for the
cab to charge.  

That, or EVs with sufficient range to handle a day's worth of fares.  Tesla
S, anyone?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: EVLN: Electric NYC Gabby Cabbies Need Level-3 Access (videos)

Tom Keenan
On the other hand, many cabbies sit for hours at hotels and airports while they wait for their next fare.
They may be able to work out a system where they are assigned a space in the taxi line and are able to hold that spot while they charge in some nearby location.

Tom Keenan

--- On Tue, 4/23/13, EVDL Administrator <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: EVDL Administrator <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Electric NYC Gabby Cabbies Need Level-3 Access (videos)
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Date: Tuesday, April 23, 2013, 1:41 PM
> I suspect that charging breaks is not
> going to work out too well for drivers
> who are already not that well paid. 
>
> IMO, this is the kind of application where swappable
> batteries make sense. 
> What pro photographer would want to wait for his camera to
> charge and
> meanwhile lose good shots?  They all carry spare
> batteries or even spare
> cameras.
>
> Similarly, for this to succeed, they need to provide either
> swappable
> batteries or swappable cabs.  No driver paid by the
> hour or on commission is
> going to want to give up badly needed income while he or she
> waits for the
> cab to charge. 
>
> That, or EVs with sufficient range to handle a day's worth
> of fares.  Tesla
> S, anyone?
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
>
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
>
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
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Re: EVLN: Electric NYC Gabby Cabbies Need Level-3 Access (videos)

EVDL Administrator
On 23 Apr 2013 at 17:53, Tom Keenan wrote:

> They may be able to work out a system where they are assigned a space
> in the taxi line and are able to hold that spot while they charge in
> some nearby location.

Sure, they may, but why should they care?  I'm serious.

Look, these guys are trying to earn a living doing a job that - being blunt -
 already pays crap.  Every minute they're not carrying a fare, they're
losing money.  Every fare they have to pass up, because they can't go as far
as the fare wants to go, is another loss.

You have to understand that to guys who drive for a living, their car or
truck is a TOOL.  They don't know or care how much it pollutes.  They just
want to get their jobs done, get paid, and go home to enjoy what little free
time they have.

Give them an inferior tool, and their ability to earn their living will be
hampered. That living already isn't too fantastic.  They will not be happy.

To a professional driver, a taxicab that can't do more than 60 miles on a
"tank" (and it will be that or less, the way these guys drive) is an
inferior tool.

I've seen reports on 1970s- and 1980s-era pilot EV projects that failed for
a simple reason - the EVs infuriated their drivers.

The EVs were slow and ungainly to handle or drive.  They went flat or
repeatedly broke down in the middle of work shifts, leaving the drivers
stranded on the road.  They were uncomfortable, rode badly, had feeble
heaters and weak or no aircon.  

In some way, or in many ways, these EVs were clearly inferior AS TOOLS TO
EARN A LIVING to the ICEVs the drivers had been using before.  They hated
them.

You know what happened?  The drivers sabotaged the EVs.   They "forgot" to
charge them.  They drove them roughly, mercilessly, until the battery was
dead flat, then called in for help.  The maintenance crews were often
complicit.  In one case I read of, shop workers were witnessed watering
flooded batteries by removing the caps and spraying them with a garden hose.

The programs failed, and the drivers got their old vehicles back.  And they
were happy again.

Now, I'm not saying that the Leaf is uncomfortable or rides badly or has
poor HVAC or is apt to break down excessively.  But it doesn't have enough
range for the mission required of it.  Barring some aggressive intervention
by Nissan (Double battery? Swappable battery?  Two Leaves for the price of
one?), it will fail.

There are good ways to promote the use of EVs.  Choosing one that isn't
equal to the job required of it, and forcing someone to use it, isn't one of
them.

IMO, the best thing you can say for this project is that, in a few years, a  
batch of used EVs should be available to us for very reasonable prices.

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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Re: EVLN: Electric NYC Gabby Cabbies Need Level-3 Access (videos)

Tom Keenan
> There are good ways to promote the use of EVs. 
> Choosing one that isn't equal to the job required of it,
> and forcing someone to use it, isn't one of them.

Quite true - There are certain vehicles that work in certain situations, and others that don't. There are many 'City Cabs' that travel hundreds of miles a day - A Leaf (or similar EV) probably wouldn't be a good fit for this situation.

In a parallel situation, many of the taxi drivers I've hired along the years were initially very against using a Prius as a cab - It was interesting how much vitriol they could put out against something new. They hated being forced out of the tried-and-true Crown Victoria for something as foreign as a Prius. (as an aside, I have a real dislike for  NYC cab companies that use the Ford Explorer - absolutely no leg room in the back/passenger seats!)

Many of those drivers now operate Prius cabs and simply love them, both for their durability and economy.  Despite the perceived limitations, they have been shown to work very well in many (but certainly, not all) situations.  You probably can't use a Prius to move a family of four and their luggage the airport.  On the other hand, you probably can't move one person from Marin County to the San Francisco Airport for less than a gallon of gas in a Crown Vic.  Operating costs also speak to cabbies - loudly!

I travel a lot in my present job, and I have always been astounded that many 'airport' taxi drivers at major airports will wait in line  - literally, for hours - for the next fare, even if that fare is only going a few miles.  They are universally unhappy if I'm only going two or three miles (less than $20), but generally OK when I have to travel fifteen or twenty miles from the airport ($70+).  

If the cabbie is concerned with a particular customer or destination, they can refuse the fare - I've drawn 'accessible' taxis on occasion, and have been asked to take the next one when someone with a need for an accessible vehicle was also in line. I've also been told that certain locations were 'too far', and that perhaps the next cab could take me there.  They are generally prohibited from refusing a 'short' fare, but they do complain, and I try to make up for it a bit with a larger tip.

I imagine that this could be extended to EV taxis that have a limited range - if the fare needs to go to the next city, they can simply take the next petro-cab.

The presumption is that these 'airport taxis', after dropping me off, will go back to the airport to wait for the next fare.  If they are lucky, they might get a random pickup on the way back to the airport, but probably not.  A round trip in this case might be 30 to 40 miles. Then, back to sitting in line (and charging) for a couple of hours.  This situation would seem to be well within the abilities of a Leaf-like airport cab.

Again, no one says that that an EV is perfect for all situations, but they can work well in many situations - even for some taxi applications.

Tom Keenan


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Re: EVLN: Electric NYC Gabby Cabbies Need Level-3 Access (videos)

Martin WINLOW
In reply to this post by Tom Keenan
Sure, but only if L3 (and I'm talking 50kW or more) chargers are available... and I gather they are not.  Ergo, this will not work.  It's almost like they know it won't work so the status quo will be maintained.  Perhaps I'm just a cynic.

MW


On 24 Apr 2013, at 01:53, Tom Keenan wrote:

> On the other hand, many cabbies sit for hours at hotels and airports while they wait for their next fare.
> They may be able to work out a system where they are assigned a space in the taxi line and are able to hold that spot while they charge in some nearby location.
>
> Tom Keenan
>
> --- On Tue, 4/23/13, EVDL Administrator <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> From: EVDL Administrator <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Electric NYC Gabby Cabbies Need Level-3 Access (videos)
>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
>> Date: Tuesday, April 23, 2013, 1:41 PM
>> I suspect that charging breaks is not
>> going to work out too well for drivers
>> who are already not that well paid.  
>>
>> IMO, this is the kind of application where swappable
>> batteries make sense.  
>> What pro photographer would want to wait for his camera to
>> charge and
>> meanwhile lose good shots?  They all carry spare
>> batteries or even spare
>> cameras.
>>
>> Similarly, for this to succeed, they need to provide either
>> swappable
>> batteries or swappable cabs.  No driver paid by the
>> hour or on commission is
>> going to want to give up badly needed income while he or she
>> waits for the
>> cab to charge.  
>>
>> That, or EVs with sufficient range to handle a day's worth
>> of fares.  Tesla
>> S, anyone?
>>
>> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>> EVDL Administrator

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Re: EVLN: Electric NYC Gabby Cabbies Need Level-3 Access (videos)

brucedp5
This post was updated on .
I fear it is like many things having to do with plugins, premature
announcements before all the details have been worked out. When a large
push comes from a force that does not care if it going to work, 'just do
it, damn it!' (that may not be the NYC Mayor's words, but the
in-charge-flunkies below him, beating everyone to "gitrdone!"), then
other forces also begin to play (announcements that garner political
gain, who cares if the program is ready for prime-time, or works right
now, etc., will it do me good politically?!?).

There are a whole slew/myriad of issues that cabbies may have to end up
contending with. Is there a Mayor's office contact for them to get them
quickly resolved? If not, then it would be like David said, that
frustration would add additional efforts (possibly from the from
cabbies) to not let the program succeed.

That sounds cynical like Martin had said, but I look at it as being
real-world/realistic (my old-school hp-way training has my mind see all
possibilities: good and bad for the customer. In this case, the customer
being the residents of NYC). Everyone should know I really want this
program to work, but if it does not, there are many, many non-plugin
reasons why it did not.

Sidebar: You have to love NYC Mayor's efforts. However anyone following
Letterman's late-show, he has worked his political issues/views/agenda
into his comedic shtick/routine (hopefully using his media power for
good). One of those was to make look silly the NYC Mayor's ban huge/big
sodas in NYC
http://www.cbs.com/shows/late_show/video/Iv_mwd6ImZowgxTJTrnA9h246H4FJmwe/david-letterman-mayor-bloomberg-on-the-soda-ban/
So, even well intended NYC Mayor ideas, may not be
well-implemented/thought-out.

I am going to hope/pray/burn-offerings the Mayor's office has enough
resources to make the EV taxis program work in a way that is good for
both the cabbies and achieve the NYC Mayor's well-intended/mentioned
benefits (decrease city-wide pollution on many levels/in many ways).


{brucedp.150m.com}
...
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=git+r+done


-
On Wed, Apr 24, 2013, at 12:22 AM, Martin WINLOW wrote:
> Sure, but only if L3 (and I'm talking 50kW or more) chargers are
> available... and I gather they are not.  Ergo, this will not work.  It's
> almost like they know it won't work so the status quo will be maintained.
>  Perhaps I'm just a cynic.
-

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - One of many happy users:
  http://www.fastmail.fm/help/overview_quotes.html

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Re: EVLN: Electric NYC Gabby Cabbies Need Level-3 Access (videos)

tomw
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by brucedp5
Well now that we've thoroughly examined the negative side, lets look at the positive.  The program was "forced" from above, but the drivers all volunteered.  It was their decision, so they have some emotional investment and will try to make it work to show they were not foolish for accepting the challenge as some coworkers surely think.

The drivers seem to have been informed of the performance of the Leaf.  If so, they likely volunteered because they thought it would work for them - like the guy that said he needs a break anyway.  They are likely the more flexible drivers who like to try new things.  

My car has a 3 phase AC motor with regen, and I find that I get much better mileage in stop and go city driving than highway driving, so I suspect they will easily get 80 mile range, maybe more, even if they stomp on the accelerator.  I am generally one of the faster cars off the line, and can easily get 80 miles range in city driving.  I use around 185Wh/mile in city driving, so should have about 89 miles range at 80% DoD of my 20.76kWh pack.  If they use 240Wh/mile, they can get 100 mile range with the 24kWh available from the 27kWh pack of the 2013 Leaf ( a friend who owns a 2013 Leaf says that is the pack size, with Nissan "reserving" 3kWh and electronically permitting use of 24kWh). With the 6.6kW charger they can add roughly 30 miles per hour charge, so a 1/2 hour break adds around 15 miles.

I agree that it would have been much better to wait until level 3 chargers were strategically deployed before starting the program, but maybe they feel the volunteers have a good enough fit to make it work well for them, giving some initial success, and don't plan to expand the program until more level 3 chargers are in place.
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Re: EVLN: Electric NYC Gabby Cabbies Need Level-3 Access(videos)

Peri Hartman
I'm curious how you figure that a taxi driver can get better than 80 mile
range in NYC.  In theory, yes.

What is your Cd?  If you get better range in city than freeway, then I
suspect you either have a poor Cd or amazingly excellent regen.

The Leaf does have a good Cd.  However, in my nearly 2 years of experience,
it has terrible regen.  With stops and starts every block or two, regen is
essential.  In Seattle, on an average arterial and residential street mix, I
get around 3 miles/kwh (or 333wh/mile).  That's in summer (though with the
new pack heaters, temperature shouldn't make as much difference).

Anyway, my range pencils out right around the EPA estimate (in summer).
Seems unlikely that NYC taxi drivers will do any better.

Peri


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of tomw
Sent: 24 April, 2013 8:19 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Electric NYC Gabby Cabbies Need Level-3
Access(videos)

Well now that we've thoroughly examined the negative side, lets look at the
positive.  The program was "forced" from above, but the drivers all
volunteered.  It was their decision, so they have some emotional investment
and will try to make it work to show they were not foolish for accepting the
challenge as some coworkers surely think.

The drivers seem to have been informed of the performance of the Leaf.  If
so, they likely volunteered because they thought it would work for them -
like the guy that said he needs a break anyway.  They are likely the more
flexible drivers who like to try new things.  

My car has a 3 phase AC motor with regen, and I find that I get much better
mileage in stop and go city driving than highway driving, so I suspect they
will easily get 80 mile range, maybe more, even if they stomp on the
accelerator.  I am generally one of the faster cars off the line, and can
easily get 80 miles range in city driving.  I use around 185Wh/mile in city
driving, so should have about 89 miles range at 80% DoD of my 20.76kWh pack.

If they use 200Wh/mile, they can get 120 mile range with the 24kWh available
from the 27kWh pack of the 2013 Leaf ( a friend who owns a 2013 Leaf says
that is the pack size, with Nissan "reserving" 3kWh and electronically
permitting use of 24kWh). With the 6.6kW charger they can add roughly 30
miles per hour charge, so a 1/2 hour break adds around 15 miles.

I agree that it would have been much better to wait until level 3 chargers
were strategically deployed before starting the program, but maybe they feel
the volunteers have a good enough fit to make it work well for them, giving
some initial success, and don't plan to expand the program until more level
3 chargers are in place.



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Re: EVLN: Electric NYC Gabby Cabbies Need Level-3 Access(videos)

Marion Hakanson-2
Hi Peri,

Now that spring weather allows her to not use the heater in our 2012 Leaf (or
to have the pack heater kick in while parked outside at work), my wife is
averaging 3.8 to 3.9 miles/kwh by the in-car display.  Her commute is about
50% arterial-residental (30-45mph), and 50% freeway (55-65mph), back and forth
across Portland, OR, between residential suburbs.  She's not hypermiling,
either -- she's got a heavy foot on occasion.

BTW, the Leaf manual and door sticker recommend 36PSI for the tires.  When we
took delivery they were only about 32PSI, and the efficiency was affected
quite a bit (3.0 miles/kwh).  I've been keeping them at 38PSI without any
ride/handling discomfort, and I've seen in the Leaf forum discussions that
some folks set them at 40PSI -- apparently some average 4.4 miles/kwh too, but
I don't see how you could drive that way in urban traffic and survive the road
rage of other drivers (:-).

Based on the limited time that I get to drive it myself, I think I've
concluded that you really only get strong regen (around the max of minus-4
"bubbles") when the SOC is below 60-70%.  You rarely see more than minus-2
bubbles without using the brake pedal (minus-2 without the brake pedal is
typical when in ECO mode).  We do have some significant hills here though, so
perhaps that helps my wife's average.  My experience is that driving it at
lower speeds (35-45mph) uses a lot less juice than highway speeds -- you can
tool around town running errands for 4-5 hours, and get back home having used
only one or two "bars" on the meter.

I do wish the Leaf had adjustable regen settings, but I think I've learned to
invoke the stronger regen on demand, by stepping on the brake pedal more than
I normally would do (I'm a long-time manual-trans ICE driver).  I'm pretty
sure I'd like the setup on the Tesla S, where regen is tied only to the
accelerator, 'cause our Leaf occasionally surprises you with a "grabby"
transition from regen to friction braking, and it would better suit my
habitual preference for "engine braking".

Still, it's been a fine car for us.

Regards,

Marion


On 04/25/13 04:02 PM, Peri Hartman wrote:

> I'm curious how you figure that a taxi driver can get better than 80 mile
> range in NYC.  In theory, yes.
>
> What is your Cd?  If you get better range in city than freeway, then I
> suspect you either have a poor Cd or amazingly excellent regen.
>
> The Leaf does have a good Cd.  However, in my nearly 2 years of experience,
> it has terrible regen.  With stops and starts every block or two, regen is
> essential.  In Seattle, on an average arterial and residential street mix, I
> get around 3 miles/kwh (or 333wh/mile).  That's in summer (though with the
> new pack heaters, temperature shouldn't make as much difference).
>
> Anyway, my range pencils out right around the EPA estimate (in summer).
> Seems unlikely that NYC taxi drivers will do any better.
>
> Peri

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Re: EVLN: Electric NYC Gabby Cabbies Need Level-3Access(videos)

Peri Hartman
Marion, what you say sounds reasonable.  However, there's a big difference
between your wife's commute and NYC driving.  I think mine is closer -
residential at 20mph and arterials at 30mph.  Average speed (including
waiting at stop lights) about 10mph.  Yes, I bicycle a lot for shorter
trips.

At 40-45 mph, I notice that I get much better efficiency, but there are only
a three or four routes like that in Seattle city limits.

When you have a chance, try checking your performance in downtown Portland,
say on Burnside and around the Pearl district.  Anywhere with a lot of stop
and go every block.  I'm curious if you will experience the same results I
have.

By the way, you can get a more accurate kwh reading on the info panel.  Tap
info, then energy usage.

Peri

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Marion Hakanson
Sent: 25 April, 2013 5:30 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Electric NYC Gabby Cabbies Need
Level-3Access(videos)

Hi Peri,

Now that spring weather allows her to not use the heater in our 2012 Leaf
(or
to have the pack heater kick in while parked outside at work), my wife is
averaging 3.8 to 3.9 miles/kwh by the in-car display.  Her commute is about
50% arterial-residental (30-45mph), and 50% freeway (55-65mph), back and
forth
across Portland, OR, between residential suburbs.  She's not hypermiling,
either -- she's got a heavy foot on occasion.

BTW, the Leaf manual and door sticker recommend 36PSI for the tires.  When
we
took delivery they were only about 32PSI, and the efficiency was affected
quite a bit (3.0 miles/kwh).  I've been keeping them at 38PSI without any
ride/handling discomfort, and I've seen in the Leaf forum discussions that
some folks set them at 40PSI -- apparently some average 4.4 miles/kwh too,
but
I don't see how you could drive that way in urban traffic and survive the
road
rage of other drivers (:-).

Based on the limited time that I get to drive it myself, I think I've
concluded that you really only get strong regen (around the max of minus-4
"bubbles") when the SOC is below 60-70%.  You rarely see more than minus-2
bubbles without using the brake pedal (minus-2 without the brake pedal is
typical when in ECO mode).  We do have some significant hills here though,
so
perhaps that helps my wife's average.  My experience is that driving it at
lower speeds (35-45mph) uses a lot less juice than highway speeds -- you can

tool around town running errands for 4-5 hours, and get back home having
used
only one or two "bars" on the meter.

I do wish the Leaf had adjustable regen settings, but I think I've learned
to
invoke the stronger regen on demand, by stepping on the brake pedal more
than
I normally would do (I'm a long-time manual-trans ICE driver).  I'm pretty
sure I'd like the setup on the Tesla S, where regen is tied only to the
accelerator, 'cause our Leaf occasionally surprises you with a "grabby"
transition from regen to friction braking, and it would better suit my
habitual preference for "engine braking".

Still, it's been a fine car for us.

Regards,

Marion


On 04/25/13 04:02 PM, Peri Hartman wrote:
> I'm curious how you figure that a taxi driver can get better than 80 mile
> range in NYC.  In theory, yes.
>
> What is your Cd?  If you get better range in city than freeway, then I
> suspect you either have a poor Cd or amazingly excellent regen.
>
> The Leaf does have a good Cd.  However, in my nearly 2 years of
experience,
> it has terrible regen.  With stops and starts every block or two, regen is
> essential.  In Seattle, on an average arterial and residential street mix,
I
> get around 3 miles/kwh (or 333wh/mile).  That's in summer (though with the
> new pack heaters, temperature shouldn't make as much difference).
>
> Anyway, my range pencils out right around the EPA estimate (in summer).
> Seems unlikely that NYC taxi drivers will do any better.
>
> Peri

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Re: EVLN: Electric NYC Gabby Cabbies Need Level-3 Access(videos)

tomw
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Peri Hartman
"I'm curious how you figure that a taxi driver can get better than 80 mile
range in NYC.  In theory, yes."

That's how I figured it, in theory, since I don't drive a Leaf nor drive in NYC.  I used 240Wh/mile which seemed reasonable to me based on my Wh/mile.

"What is your Cd?"

0.32.  But CdA is what matters, and A = 19 ft^2 for my car.

"If you get better range in city than freeway, then I suspect you either have a poor Cd or amazingly excellent regen."

What % energy recovery do you call excellent?  My regen is operated by the accelerator as Tesla's is. I  also have tailored it the way I like by changing software parameters in the motor controller.  I generally don't touch my mechanical brakes when coming to a stop until the car is traveling less than 10 mph,  sometimes not at all, and never for adjusting speed in traffic, or slowing for a bend in the road.

CdA is fairly low, and I have blocked off the grill and keep the tires at 38 psi.

"The Leaf does have a good Cd."

Yes, but it has a big cross sectional are compared to my Swift.

"However, in my nearly 2 years of experience, it has terrible regen.  With stops and starts every block or two, regen is essential.  In Seattle, on an average arterial and residential street mix, I get around 3 miles/kwh (or 333wh/mile).  That's in summer (though with the new pack heaters, temperature shouldn't make as much difference)."

The guy I know who owned one of the early Leaf models and traded it in on a 2013 one says regen is much better on the 2013, so I expected the cabs would have as good or better regen than my car.  He didn't quantify it though.  

I've been driving the Swift for about 3 1/2 years now and consistently get 185 Wh/mile, or 5.4 mile/kWh, or less if only tooling around town at 25 to 40 mph. For example, recently I drove 51.6 miles just around town, no highway, and according to my TBS Expertpro gauge used 1.48 Ah/mile or about 170 Wh/mile (5.8 mile/kWh) since my pack is nominal 115V (36 cells).  That is not including charger losses.  From the wall I used 9.97 kWh, or 193 Wh/mile (5.2 mile/kWh) according to the EKM meter I have at the AC input to the charger. Edit: that was during the third week of March, so the batteries were at about 65 F, which I heat them to while parked in the garage, and outside temp was around 60 F.  It would do a bit better in warmer weather, and significantly worse in winter with increased losses due to drive train friction and cabin heater.  Cabin heater losses are a larger proportion of energy use at slower vehicle speeds, so very significant for stop and go driving, not such a big hit for highway driving where a mile is traveled much faster.
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Re: EVLN: Electric NYC Gabby Cabbies Need Level-3Access(videos)

Marion Hakanson-2
In reply to this post by Peri Hartman
On 04/25/13 05:48 PM, Peri Hartman wrote:

> Marion, what you say sounds reasonable.  However, there's a big difference
> between your wife's commute and NYC driving.  I think mine is closer -
> residential at 20mph and arterials at 30mph.  Average speed (including
> waiting at stop lights) about 10mph.  Yes, I bicycle a lot for shorter
> trips.
>
> At 40-45 mph, I notice that I get much better efficiency, but there are only
> a three or four routes like that in Seattle city limits.
>
> When you have a chance, try checking your performance in downtown Portland,
> say on Burnside and around the Pearl district.  Anywhere with a lot of stop
> and go every block.  I'm curious if you will experience the same results I
> have.

I see what you mean;  We experience that kind of traffic even out in the
'burbs (e.g. downtown Beaverton) during rush hour times.  There's not a lot of
opportunity for regen in the Leaf below 10-15mph, even when you invoke it via
the brake pedal.  Fortunately, my wife is usually able to flex her work hours
to make her drive avoid the worst of the mess.


> By the way, you can get a more accurate kwh reading on the info panel.  Tap
> info, then energy usage.

Yes, I'm always going to that display, I wish I knew how to make it the
default at startup.  But I really don't feel comfortable watching that
center-console display closely while driving in traffic, so I've mentally
translated those kwh numbers onto the rather lame bubble-meter, which is in
prime real estate behind the steering wheel.

Our sales person seemed very knowledgeable, and he recommended aiming to go no
higher than the 20kw range during acceleration when you want to drive
efficiently.  I find that using that amount of "throttle" when moving away
from a stop light is actually slightly quicker than the average driver around
me, so you don't feel like you're hypermiling or otherwise getting in the way
of traffic.

Regards,

Marion

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Re: EVLN: Electric NYC Gabby Cabbies Need Level-3 Access(videos)

Pat Dawson
In reply to this post by Peri Hartman
Chiming in.

My LEAF doesn't do nearly as well in terms of range in constant speed highway driving as compared to stop and go driving under 40 mph.  Cd is not a concern at low speed though the LEAF Cd is stellar for a mass produced car.  I average 4 miles/kWh and don't spare the ponies in town at the light where the LEAF is just too fun and effortless to resist.  I'll make it up in regen on "eco" mode.   In my fairly temperate climate here (these days) I could put local pizza delivery guys and local taxis out of business right now if they don't get with the program.

I couldn't drive my LEAF 133 miles to the Carlisle PA car show & flea market due to the lack of Level III support.  That's a technical problem due to lack of infrastructure.
But then I realized I couldn't prudently drive my 10 mpg  premium gas old car 300 miles either (7.5L).  That's an economic problem due to a technology that is no longer relevant.




________________________________
 From: Peri Hartman <[hidden email]>
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List' <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 7:02 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Electric NYC Gabby Cabbies Need Level-3 Access(videos)
 

I'm curious how you figure that a taxi driver can get better than 80 mile
range in NYC.  In theory, yes.

What is your Cd?  If you get better range in city than freeway, then I
suspect you either have a poor Cd or amazingly excellent regen.

The Leaf does have a good Cd.  However, in my nearly 2 years of experience,
it has terrible regen.  With stops and starts every block or two, regen is
essential.  In Seattle, on an average arterial and residential street mix, I
get around 3 miles/kwh (or 333wh/mile).  That's in summer (though with the
new pack heaters, temperature shouldn't make as much difference).

Anyway, my range pencils out right around the EPA estimate (in summer).
Seems unlikely that NYC taxi drivers will do any better.

Peri


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of tomw
Sent: 24 April, 2013 8:19 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Electric NYC Gabby Cabbies Need Level-3
Access(videos)

Well now that we've thoroughly examined the negative side, lets look at the
positive.  The program was "forced" from above, but the drivers all
volunteered.  It was their decision, so they have some emotional investment
and will try to make it work to show they were not foolish for accepting the
challenge as some coworkers surely think.

The drivers seem to have been informed of the performance of the Leaf.  If
so, they likely volunteered because they thought it would work for them -
like the guy that said he needs a break anyway.  They are likely the more
flexible drivers who like to try new things. 

My car has a 3 phase AC motor with regen, and I find that I get much better
mileage in stop and go city driving than highway driving, so I suspect they
will easily get 80 mile range, maybe more, even if they stomp on the
accelerator.  I am generally one of the faster cars off the line, and can
easily get 80 miles range in city driving.  I use around 185Wh/mile in city
driving, so should have about 89 miles range at 80% DoD of my 20.76kWh pack.

If they use 200Wh/mile, they can get 120 mile range with the 24kWh available
from the 27kWh pack of the 2013 Leaf ( a friend who owns a 2013 Leaf says
that is the pack size, with Nissan "reserving" 3kWh and electronically
permitting use of 24kWh). With the 6.6kW charger they can add roughly 30
miles per hour charge, so a 1/2 hour break adds around 15 miles.

I agree that it would have been much better to wait until level 3 chargers
were strategically deployed before starting the program, but maybe they feel
the volunteers have a good enough fit to make it work well for them, giving
some initial success, and don't plan to expand the program until more level
3 chargers are in place.



--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Electric-N
YC-Gabby-Cabbies-Need-Level-3-Access-videos-tp4662605p4662633.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
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Re: EVLN: Electric NYC Gabby Cabbies Need Level-3 Access(videos)

Marion Hakanson-2
In reply to this post by tomw
On 04/26/13 07:36 AM, tomw wrote:
 > . . .
> The guy I know who owned one of the early Leaf models and traded it in on a
> 2013 one says regen is much better on the 2013, so I expected the cabs would
> have as good or better regen than my car.  He didn't quantify it though.

Sign me up for a firmware upgrade, please!


> I've been driving the Swift for about 3 1/2 years now and consistently get
> 185 Wh/mile, or 5.4 mile/kWh, or less if only tooling around town at 25 to
> 40 mph. For example, recently I drove 51.6 miles just around town, no
> highway, and according to my TBS Expertpro gauge used 1.48 Ah/mile or about
> 170 Wh/mile (5.8 mile/kWh) since my pack is nominal 115V (36 cells).  That
> is not including charger losses.  From the wall I used 9.97 kWh, or 193
> Wh/mile (5.2 mile/kWh) according to the EKM meter I have at the AC input to
> the charger.

You can't beat a light car when it comes to efficiency and performance.  Colin
Chapman (Lotus cars), Amory Lovins (Hypercar), etc., the idea has probably
been around for as long as the concept of inertia (:-).

Regards,

Marion


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Re: EVLN: Electric NYC Gabby Cabbies Need Level-3 Access(videos)

Peri Hartman
A firmware update would be awesome.  If anyone has connections to enable  
this to happen, please let me know.  

I will say, no matter what, the 2013 will still do better.  Someone posted  
that it has a 26 kwh battery that only charges to 24kwh, so that allows  
regen to work on a "full" battery.  

But can gains be made by allowing more aggressive regen at other times?  It  
may depend on whether engineers were being too cautious on the orig model vs  
some change to the chemistry allowing higher regen current in the new bat.  
or maybe they have a new bms that can protect unbalenced cells better?

Peri

-----Original message-----
From: Marion Hakanson <[hidden email]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Sent: Fri, Apr 26, 2013 17:24:14 GMT+00:00
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Electric NYC Gabby Cabbies Need Level-3
Access(videos)

On 04/26/13 07:36 AM, tomw wrote:
 > . . .
> The guy I know who owned one of the early Leaf models and traded it in on  
a
> 2013 one says regen is much better on the 2013, so I expected the cabs  
would
> have as good or better regen than my car.  He didn't quantify it though.

Sign me up for a firmware upgrade, please!


> I've been driving the Swift for about 3 1/2 years now and consistently get
> 185 Wh/mile, or 5.4 mile/kWh, or less if only tooling around town at 25 to
> 40 mph. For example, recently I drove 51.6 miles just around town, no
> highway, and according to my TBS Expertpro gauge used 1.48 Ah/mile or  
about
> 170 Wh/mile (5.8 mile/kWh) since my pack is nominal 115V (36 cells).  That
> is not including charger losses.  From the wall I used 9.97 kWh, or 193
> Wh/mile (5.2 mile/kWh) according to the EKM meter I have at the AC input  
to
> the charger.

You can't beat a light car when it comes to efficiency and performance.  
Colin Chapman (Lotus cars), Amory Lovins (Hypercar), etc., the idea has  
probably been around for as long as the concept of inertia (:-).

Regards,

Marion


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Re: EVLN: Electric NYC Gabby Cabbies Need Level-3 Access(videos)

tomw
Thought I should add some data on highway driving to compare to the city driving data I gave earlier for the Swift.  I rarely do "all highway" trips, but recently drove 41.1 miles round trip, only 7 of which were on 35 mph roads, rest was at 60 - 65 mph on open highway, about 17 miles out, no stopping, and same on return.  There was about a 500 ft elevation gain out, and the same lost coming back.  I used 2.09 Ah/mile or 241 Wh/mile (4.1 mile/Wh) average over the 41.1 miles according to the TBS gauge, and 271 Wh/mile from the wall socket according to the EKM meter, much more than I use tooling around in town.

I don't know if the regen improvement on the 2013 Leaf was just a firmware upgrade or not, but the owner was very impressed with how well Nissan had listened to complaints about earlier versions and addressed every one he was aware of with the 2013 model.