EVLN: Electric car racing helps mature and develop new technologies

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EVLN: Electric car racing helps mature and develop new technologies

brucedp5

There’s no way to go at it any differently

http://www.torquenews.com/1079/racing-electric-cars-will-make-them-cool
[image] Racing Electric Cars Will Make Them Cool
By Nicolas Zart  02/17/2013

[image  
http://www.torquenews.com/sites/default/files/image-1079/%5Btitle-raw%5D/LolaDraysonB1269EV_0.jpg
Electric racing cars are ready, now where are you?
]

Racing has allowed expensive technologies to find its way into our daily lives. Racing helps mature and develop new technologies, electric car racing will have the same benefits.

There’s no way to go at it any differently, this new electric propulsion system will get a chunk of the heart of the population when it races them. If you think about it, racing has always played an essential role in the automotive world that sees new technology first tested on the racetrack before making it into our daily drivers.

Fast, Speed, Range? The problem with racing electric cars is that none of the current races fit what these new cars can do. We cannot see just yet an electric Formula One car race duking it out for hours with the current state of technology that would limit such duels to a few lapses with long recharge time out. Of course there are different races we must create, the hardest part if winning the people over to it.

Getting People To Try Something New. If you’re a sports fan, you’ll know how far you’ll go for your favorite team. Racing is no different, but what needs to happen with racing electric vehicles is that people don’t expect a rematch of what the gasoline world does right now. In essence, people need to be intrigued about racing an electric car in ways that doesn’t remind them of what they’re used to, so they don’t ask for it either.

Endurance racing cannot happen at this stage since current electric cars don’t have the range and endurance, at least for the next few years. If funds were found to laden entire racetracks with wireless inductive chargers, electric car race would become a more palpable and feasible event. In the meantime, smaller Formula types of races should happen, although hill climbs and other rally race sanction event should allow electric cars. After all, distance is never a problem on these racetracks.

Racing a standard one-seater or two for prototypes is a tricky proposition for ether types in this new world. Racing will accredit electric cars in the eyes of the world when they finally see the incredible torque delivery an electric motor has.
[© 2013 torquenews.com ]




For all EVLN posts use:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date

Here are today's archive-only EV posts:

EVLN: Plug-in Electric Car Sales in Canada For January 2013
EVLN: Electric Vehicles Are Selling Quite Well!
EVLN: Polaris donates 2 GEM nEVs to the Minnesota Zoo
EVLN: Sydney fleet replacing hevs with extremely cost-effective EVs
EVLN: Lithium-Vanadium-Phosphate creates “supercharged” batteries
+
EVLN: Will we ever see an electric Golf? VW Is Still Testing r:~70mi


{brucedp.150m.com}
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Re: EVLN: Electric car racing helps mature and develop new technologies

Chris Tromley
Racing is good for accelerating acceptance and that's a good thing, but it
really isn't necessary (or shouldn't be).  The typical examples trotted out
are the rear view mirror (really?  we had to go racing to figure that out?)
and disc brakes, which were actually just adapted from aircraft.

Still, I'm all for it if that gets us EVs quicker.  I have to disagree
strongly about running EVs in longer races though.  There is no reason you
couldn't swap out a racing pack in little more time than a typical fuel
stop.  Give the problem to the racers.  You'll be amazed at the solutions.

Chris
LeSled is for sale!
http://WWW.evalbum.com/274
On Feb 25, 2013 7:32 AM, "brucedp5" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> There’s no way to go at it any differently
>
> http://www.torquenews.com/1079/racing-electric-cars-will-make-them-cool
> [image] Racing Electric Cars Will Make Them Cool
> By Nicolas Zart  02/17/2013
>
> [image
>
> http://www.torquenews.com/sites/default/files/image-1079/%5Btitle-raw%5D/LolaDraysonB1269EV_0.jpg
> Electric racing cars are ready, now where are you?
> ]
>
> Racing has allowed expensive technologies to find its way into our daily
> lives. Racing helps mature and develop new technologies, electric car
> racing
> will have the same benefits.
>
> There’s no way to go at it any differently, this new electric propulsion
> system will get a chunk of the heart of the population when it races them.
> If you think about it, racing has always played an essential role in the
> automotive world that sees new technology first tested on the racetrack
> before making it into our daily drivers.
>
> Fast, Speed, Range? The problem with racing electric cars is that none of
> the current races fit what these new cars can do. We cannot see just yet an
> electric Formula One car race duking it out for hours with the current
> state
> of technology that would limit such duels to a few lapses with long
> recharge
> time out. Of course there are different races we must create, the hardest
> part if winning the people over to it.
>
> Getting People To Try Something New. If you’re a sports fan, you’ll know
> how
> far you’ll go for your favorite team. Racing is no different, but what
> needs
> to happen with racing electric vehicles is that people don’t expect a
> rematch of what the gasoline world does right now. In essence, people need
> to be intrigued about racing an electric car in ways that doesn’t remind
> them of what they’re used to, so they don’t ask for it either.
>
> Endurance racing cannot happen at this stage since current electric cars
> don’t have the range and endurance, at least for the next few years. If
> funds were found to laden entire racetracks with wireless inductive
> chargers, electric car race would become a more palpable and feasible
> event.
> In the meantime, smaller Formula types of races should happen, although
> hill
> climbs and other rally race sanction event should allow electric cars.
> After
> all, distance is never a problem on these racetracks.
>
> Racing a standard one-seater or two for prototypes is a tricky proposition
> for ether types in this new world. Racing will accredit electric cars in
> the
> eyes of the world when they finally see the incredible torque delivery an
> electric motor has.
> [© 2013 torquenews.com ]
>
>
>
>
> For all EVLN posts use:
>
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date
>
> Here are today's archive-only EV posts:
>
> EVLN: Plug-in Electric Car Sales in Canada For January 2013
> EVLN: Electric Vehicles Are Selling Quite Well!
> EVLN: Polaris donates 2 GEM nEVs to the Minnesota Zoo
> EVLN: Sydney fleet replacing hevs with extremely cost-effective EVs
> EVLN: Lithium-Vanadium-Phosphate creates “supercharged” batteries
> +
> EVLN: Will we ever see an electric Golf? VW Is Still Testing r:~70mi
>
>
> {brucedp.150m.com}
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Electric-car-racing-helps-mature-and-develop-new-technologies-tp4661514.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
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Re: EVLN: Electric car racing helps mature and develop new technologies

EVDL Administrator
On 25 Feb 2013 at 13:02, Chris Tromley wrote:

> There is no reason you couldn't swap out a racing pack in little more
> time than a typical fuel stop.

They used to do that in the APS electrics races.  I saw one in Cleveland
many years ago.  It was a sight to behold.  They used a total brute force
approach - a well trained crew, swarming over an EV, swapping batteries in
perhaps a minute or two.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: EVLN: Electric car racing helps mature and develop new technologies

Rush Dougherty
So David, let me play devil's advocate here -

Since you, the list administrator, are discussing EV racing, it is  alright
for the rest of us to do the same?

If yes, why is " For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA" still at
the bottom?

Thanks
Rush

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of EVDL Administrator
> Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 12:04 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Electric car racing helps mature and develop new
> technologies
>
> On 25 Feb 2013 at 13:02, Chris Tromley wrote:
>
> > There is no reason you couldn't swap out a racing pack in little more
> > time than a typical fuel stop.
>
> They used to do that in the APS electrics races.  I saw one in Cleveland
many
> years ago.  It was a sight to behold.  They used a total brute force
approach -
> a well trained crew, swarming over an EV, swapping batteries in perhaps a
> minute or two.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL
Information:
> http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= = = = =

> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me.  To
> send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage
> http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
>
> -----
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APS Electric 500 : EVLN: Electric car racing helps mature and develop new technologies

brucedp5
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator
Some EV Racing History - APS electric races (before nedra.com )
http://www.aps.com/main/green/choice/EV/ev_8.html
1992 – APS in creates the APS Electric 500. Held each year at Phoenix
International Raceway, the APS Electric 500 featured about 80 vehicles
constructed by high school and university racing teams and driven by
professional racecar drivers such as Tom Sneva and Billy Roe.

APS Electric 500
http://www.nytimes.com/1994/03/21/us/electric-cars-race-silently-into-the-future.html

Clare Bell @APS Electric 500
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clare_Bell#Biography
 ... As part of the Women's Electric Racing Team, she competed in the
 Arizona Public Service utility company's APS Solar and Electric 500 and
 APS Electrics electric vehicle races, held in Phoenix, Arizona from
 1993 to 1997 ...

http://www.thefoat.com/fa/photos-album/album_id-503
EV Racing Posters, etc. 1993 APS Solar & Electric 500

...
> ... swap out a racing pack ...

Take a look at an image Otmar (of Zilla controller fame) is kind enough
to still keep on his site
http://www.cafeelectric.com/images/Snowhite1.jpg

Snowhite is one of the very first Electric Race cars. It had two packs,
one on each side of identical size. All the pit crew had to do was push
down on the side lid and it would pop open. The lifting tool would scoot
under the pack and it was easy to take the whole pack out. Swapping a
fresh pack in was just as easy and straight forward. A push down on the
lid again and it locked in place. The EV racer would  take off and the
depleted pack would taken back to the pit for a dump charge (DC level-3
charging before there was such a thing ... )

Another Bob Schneeveis design that was way, way ahead of its time. Dual
8" AdvDC motors with two Curtis 1221x controllers, using one accelerator
potbox ...
http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=A0oGdVeCuitRfFYAiFNXNyoA?p=Bob+Schneeveis
http://dor.stanford.edu/Marsh/Schneeveis.html


{brucedp.150m.com}


-
On Mon, Feb 25, 2013, at 11:03 AM, EVDL Administrator wrote:

> On 25 Feb 2013 at 13:02, Chris Tromley wrote:
>
> > There is no reason you couldn't swap out a racing pack in little more
> > time than a typical fuel stop.
>
> They used to do that in the APS electrics races.  I saw one in Cleveland
> many years ago.  It was a sight to behold.  They used a total brute force
> approach - a well trained crew, swarming over an EV, swapping batteries
> in
> perhaps a minute or two.
-

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - IMAP accessible web-mail

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Re: EVLN: Electric car racing helps mature and develop new technologies

Bill Dube
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator

Tire technology is just one example of how racing innovation serves
the general motoring public. Radial ply tires is one of many examples
of racing innovation contributing to advances used in every day
automobiles in this one technological area. There are countless other examples.

I will say that modern day racing has become specialized enough that
the contributions to technology advancement (for every day autos) is
minimal. However, EV racing is young enough that it is not that way,
yet. Future innovation in racing depends how the EV racing rules are written.

 >>>> Pit stops <<<

Modern pit stops are on the order of seconds. Typically, they are in
the range of 3 to 4 seconds. (2.31 seconds is the record in Formula
one.) Refueling pit stops can take up to 12 seconds.

In Formula E, they are going to simply change cars. The driver gets
out and makes a dash to a freshly charged car.

Bill D


At 12:03 PM 2/25/2013, you wrote:

>On 25 Feb 2013 at 13:02, Chris Tromley wrote:
>
> > There is no reason you couldn't swap out a racing pack in little more
> > time than a typical fuel stop.
>
>They used to do that in the APS electrics races.  I saw one in Cleveland
>many years ago.  It was a sight to behold.  They used a total brute force
>approach - a well trained crew, swarming over an EV, swapping batteries in
>perhaps a minute or two.
>
>David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>EVDL Administrator

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Re: EVLN: Electric car racing helps mature and develop new technologies

Bill Dube
In reply to this post by Rush Dougherty
Look at this latest video of Drayson's B12/69 Hyper EV and tell me
that racing does not drive innovation:
http://vimeo.com/59137128

Inductive charging (20+ kW.) Regenerative damping.

(We built the battery pack for this, by the way.)

Bill D.

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Re: APS Electric 500 : EVLN: Electric car racing helps mature and develop new technologies

rodhower
In reply to this post by brucedp5
Thanks for that nytimes link!  I attended the APS 500 back in 1994 and did a
presentation for the students about motors and controls when I worked at GE.  I
also attended a race in Long Beach, CA that was an exhibition race a day before
the ICE race (Long Beach grand prix).  I was a backup for helping swap the
battery packs.  Imagine how much easier it would be today with Lithium!
Rod


----- Original Message ----
From: Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[hidden email]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Sent: Mon, February 25, 2013 2:49:54 PM
Subject: [EVDL] APS Electric 500 : EVLN: Electric car racing helps mature and
develop new technologies

Some EV Racing History - APS electric races (before nedra.com )
http://www.aps.com/main/green/choice/EV/ev_8.html
1992 – APS in creates the APS Electric 500. Held each year at Phoenix
International Raceway, the APS Electric 500 featured about 80 vehicles
constructed by high school and university racing teams and driven by
professional racecar drivers such as Tom Sneva and Billy Roe.

APS Electric 500
http://www.nytimes.com/1994/03/21/us/electric-cars-race-silently-into-the-future.html


Clare Bell @APS Electric 500
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clare_Bell#Biography
... As part of the Women's Electric Racing Team, she competed in the
Arizona Public Service utility company's APS Solar and Electric 500 and
APS Electrics electric vehicle races, held in Phoenix, Arizona from
1993 to 1997 ...

http://www.thefoat.com/fa/photos-album/album_id-503
EV Racing Posters, etc. 1993 APS Solar & Electric 500

...
> ... swap out a racing pack ...

Take a look at an image Otmar (of Zilla controller fame) is kind enough
to still keep on his site
http://www.cafeelectric.com/images/Snowhite1.jpg

Snowhite is one of the very first Electric Race cars. It had two packs,
one on each side of identical size. All the pit crew had to do was push
down on the side lid and it would pop open. The lifting tool would scoot
under the pack and it was easy to take the whole pack out. Swapping a
fresh pack in was just as easy and straight forward. A push down on the
lid again and it locked in place. The EV racer would  take off and the
depleted pack would taken back to the pit for a dump charge (DC level-3
charging before there was such a thing ... )

Another Bob Schneeveis design that was way, way ahead of its time. Dual
8" AdvDC motors with two Curtis 1221x controllers, using one accelerator
potbox ...
http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=A0oGdVeCuitRfFYAiFNXNyoA?p=Bob+Schneeveis

http://dor.stanford.edu/Marsh/Schneeveis.html


{brucedp.150m.com}


-
On Mon, Feb 25, 2013, at 11:03 AM, EVDL Administrator wrote:

> On 25 Feb 2013 at 13:02, Chris Tromley wrote:
>
> > There is no reason you couldn't swap out a racing pack in little more
> > time than a typical fuel stop.
>
> They used to do that in the APS electrics races.  I saw one in Cleveland
> many years ago.  It was a sight to behold.  They used a total brute force
> approach - a well trained crew, swarming over an EV, swapping batteries
> in
> perhaps a minute or two.
-

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - IMAP accessible web-mail

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
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Re: EVLN: Electric car racing helps mature and develop new technologies

Rush Dougherty
In reply to this post by Bill Dube
Fantastic Bill, I guess the pack is made up of A123 cells?

Inductive Charging? Any more info on that?

Love it when Drayson says 'one of the rear wheels can be going backwards at
175 mph can be an issue'.

"This is what high performance cars are going to sound like in the future"
Right ON!

"Stick it in drive and it goes" Once the 'world' experiences this, nobody
will want a clutch or a gear shift, just drive neutral and reverse!

Rush
www.TucsonEV.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Bill Dube
> Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 1:29 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Electric car racing helps mature and develop new
> technologies
>
> Look at this latest video of Drayson's B12/69 Hyper EV and tell me that
racing

> does not drive innovation:
> http://vimeo.com/59137128
>
> Inductive charging (20+ kW.) Regenerative damping.
>
> (We built the battery pack for this, by the way.)
>
> Bill D.
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2639/6102 - Release Date: 02/13/13
> Internal Virus Database is out of date.


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Re: EVLN: Electric car racing helps mature and developnew technologies

Cliff
In reply to this post by Rush Dougherty
Hi Rush,

" For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA"

There are many forms of EV racing: electrathon, rally (Pikes Peak mainly),
autocross, go-kart, motorcycle, drag racing (car and bike), closed circuit
road racing. There is even an electric skateboard series.

I was away from the list for a couple of years so I have no idea why the
prohibition exists but it does specify drag racing so the discussion does
seem within the rules.

Cliff

www.ProEV.com




-----Original Message-----
From: Rush Dougherty
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 2:49 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Electric car racing helps mature and developnew
technologies

So David, let me play devil's advocate here -

Since you, the list administrator, are discussing EV racing, it is  alright
for the rest of us to do the same?

If yes, why is " For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA" still at
the bottom?

Thanks
Rush


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Re: EVLN: Electric car racing helps mature and develop new technologies

Jeff Major
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator
Hi David,

There were a number of teams that could swap battery packs in well less than 20 seconds.  I think the Oklahoma U team had the record of like 15 seconds.  That was for 1200 pounds of PbAcid out and 1200 in, connections made, body panels shut and driver on his way.  Only took 8 students and a lot of practice.

Jeff M



----- Original Message -----
From: EVDL Administrator <[hidden email]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Cc:
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 2:03 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Electric car racing helps mature and develop new technologies

On 25 Feb 2013 at 13:02, Chris Tromley wrote:

> There is no reason you couldn't swap out a racing pack in little more
> time than a typical fuel stop.

They used to do that in the APS electrics races.  I saw one in Cleveland
many years ago.  It was a sight to behold.  They used a total brute force
approach - a well trained crew, swarming over an EV, swapping batteries in
perhaps a minute or two.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Drayson EV Race Car (Was: Electric car racing helps mature and develop new technologies)

Bill Dube
In reply to this post by Rush Dougherty
The inductive charger is a "Qualcomm Halo" brand. About 20 kW.
I was an inductive charger "agnostic" until I saw this system. Now I
am a believer.
The system consists of a unit that is in the bottom of the car, and a
pad on the ground. It is quite tolerant of misalignment. There is
also quite a distance (like several inches) between the pad and the car.
I wouldn't believe it, but I saw it.

Yes, the pack is made of special 26650 A123Systems cells. Same format
as the M1 cells, but a bit better performance.


Bill D.

At 03:34 PM 2/25/2013, you wrote:

>Fantastic Bill, I guess the pack is made up of A123 cells?
>
>Inductive Charging? Any more info on that?
>
>Love it when Drayson says 'one of the rear wheels can be going backwards at
>175 mph can be an issue'.
>
>"This is what high performance cars are going to sound like in the future"
>Right ON!
>
>"Stick it in drive and it goes" Once the 'world' experiences this, nobody
>will want a clutch or a gear shift, just drive neutral and reverse!
>
>Rush
>www.TucsonEV.com
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> > Behalf Of Bill Dube
> > Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 1:29 PM
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Electric car racing helps mature and develop new
> > technologies
> >
> > Look at this latest video of Drayson's B12/69 Hyper EV and tell me that
>racing
> > does not drive innovation:
> > http://vimeo.com/59137128
> >
> > Inductive charging (20+ kW.) Regenerative damping.
> >
> > (We built the battery pack for this, by the way.)
> >
> > Bill D.
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> > -----
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Re: EVLN: Electric car racing helps mature and develop new technologies

Jeff Major
In reply to this post by Jeff Major
In the 2011 EVGrandPrix at Indianapolis Motor Speedway, the BGSU team swapped batteries in 7 seconds during a pit stop in the 100 lap race.  No, it wasn't the big oval.  A 1/3 mile course in the infield :-)
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