EVLN: Fiat 500e EV> close to perfect

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EVLN: Fiat 500e EV> close to perfect

brucedp5


http://cars.chicagotribune.com/fuel-efficient/news/sns-mct-bc-auto-hood-20140307
EV life: Fiat 500e plug-in car close to perfect
March 10, 2014  By Brad Bergholdt

[image  
http://www.trbimg.com/img-525d6ac5/turbine/chi-2014-fiat-500e-20131015-002/600
(Chrysler Group photo)
]

I thought it might be a good time to provide feedback at 5,000 miles on my electric car experiment. In October I leased an all-electric Fiat 500e, as the cost of the lease was less than I was spending each month on gasoline to drive my conventional vehicle.

The Fiat's battery range of 80-90 miles presents an occasional concern, but actually gets it done for about 90 percent of my daily needs. There have been a few times I've arrived home after work and there wasn't enough time to charge the car sufficiently to head back out for an extended evening adventure. Or while I could easily make the 50-mile trip to San Francisco, I couldn't be assured I could find convenient or available charging there so I could make the trip home. Availability of electric vehicle plug-in locations is still quite spotty.

I love this little car. It's a blast to drive, with very peppy acceleration and crisp handling paid for with a choppy, firm ride. And it's surprisingly roomy inside. My wife and I are continually amazed at how many groceries or home-improvement items you can cram into the rear with the useless back seat folded down. An illuminated "hatch ajar" light is frequent source of amusement, telling us we have truly filled it. I've only forgotten to plug the car in once, requiring me to drive the oil-burner SUV the following day. My 5,000 mile average is 136 mpg-e, almost 10 times the efficiency of our oil-burner.

The blending of slingshot acceleration, deceleration energy regeneration, and brakes is done magnificently it appears to be 100 percent regeneration until you drop below 8 mph. During firm braking at speed, it's amazing to see it packing up to 75,000 watts of juice back into the batteries. Everything about this car is flawless, except for one silly, one annoying and one truly awful feature.

The included TomTom navigation unit is a joke, plugging in atop the instrument panel in the worst possible place, obstructing vision. It lives, unused, in the glove box. The Bluetooth phone merging is delightfully convenient, but clumsy. About once every seven times, it misinterprets my crystal-clear, increasingly snide requests; drops the link to the phone; or dials the wrong person.

My really serious beef is with a feature called Auto Park. This well-intended fiasco is supposed to prevent me from stepping out of the absolutely silent vehicle if the shifter is accidentally left in drive. This may be great if you live on a salt flat, but for folks that park or stop occasionally on slopes, it's a disaster. Let's say you remove your seatbelt and crack open the driver's door to untangle your coat tail, or in my case get out to open and close a rural driveway gate, the car will violently slam into park if the car creeps slightly or is still moving very slowly as the door is opened. It will also sometimes slam into park as I release the brake pedal to move forward, after re-entering the vehicle. And never, ever turn off the key while still moving. In addition to the unpleasant whiplash, there's a very good chance the transmission may someday end up on the ground in pieces.

Fiat considers this normal operation, even after I've told them several times, "Either Auto Park goes or the car does." Well, Auto Park went away, after I took matters into my own hands. It was a challenge to outsmart the system without any available wiring diagrams, but I'm now in complete driving bliss.

I'm likely in the minority to acquire an electric car without concern for the coveted white HOV-lane sticker. I've only driven solo twice in the car pool lane, and it was pretty cool. The almost-zero maintenance, exhilarating and guilt-free acceleration, cost savings and smaller environmental footprint are what rock my boat.
[© 2014 McClatchy-Tribune Information Services]
...
http://www.buyfiat.com/?sid=1037056&KWNM=fiat+500e&KWID=1461658480&TR=2&channel=paidsearch&segment=Model&BC=California&model=50E
A buyfiat site




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EVLN: Tucson going after Tesla's 6,500 new jobs


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Re: EVLN: Fiat 500e EV> close to perfect

Rick Beebe
On 3/12/2014 3:54 AM, brucedp5 wrote:
[... some deleted...]
> I love this little car. It's a blast to drive, with very peppy acceleration
> and crisp handling paid for with a choppy, firm ride. And it's surprisingly
> roomy inside. My wife and I are continually amazed at how many groceries or
> home-improvement items you can cram into the rear with the useless back seat
> folded down.

Almost all the stuff he says about the Fiat 500e I can say about the
Smart ED that I'm leasing. Except I don't have a useless seat to fold
down, the Smart is less expensive, AND it's available outside California.

I passed 800 miles on mine today and I gotta say, I just love driving
the thing.

--Rick
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Re: EVLN: Fiat 500e EV> close to perfect

Michael Ross
>
>
> Almost all the stuff he says about the Fiat 500e I can say about the Smart
> ED that I'm leasing. Except I don't have a useless seat to fold down, the
> Smart is less expensive, AND it's available outside California.
>

Most people, given the choice between the two, and all other things being
equal, would probably go for a 500e on looks.  Not trying to be offensive,
but Daimler was after funky/weird, and distinctive, not cute and
distinctive.  They were successful.  The 500 is an old favorite and Fiat is
just riding that train.  I wonder if the 500e rides smoother?  Smart is
pretty harsh, well the ICE version is anyway.  The Smart interior is
definitely utilitarian, the Fiat is again after a note of style.  All that
"extra" costs more.  It is not a bad business decision, many people like
style.

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Re: EVLN: Fiat 500e EV> close to perfect

nicklogan
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Rick Beebe
Thanks for the tip, Rick. I was able to get a 3 year lease on a 2013 Smart ED for $99/mo plus tax today. I got the last 2013 available in Connecticut through a Mecedes Benz dealer. By opting into their Battery Assurance Plan most of the payment is actually going toward leasing the battery (only $20/mo toward the "glider"). Since I don't plan on buying it at the end of the lease, I don't care if that means my buyout price would be higher. I pay almost as much a month in gas to commute as the payment so it's a cheap way into a new EV.  At the end of lease I'll look for a new EV to buy and will likely have more choices at a lower price.
Really, I think it means I just became part of Daimlers battery research program - they get to keep the $7500 federal credit while I pay to rent their battery while they test the battery. The last generation of Smarts had the battery made by Tesla, this one was made by a Daimler sudsidiary. The car almost gets thrown in for free. I always considered a lease a sucker's game and have never even bought a new car, but this was too good to pass up. Maybe a new Leaf the next time. Now I can take my lead sled pickup off the road to upgrade to lithium batteries and take my time about it.
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Re: EVLN: Fiat 500e EV> close to perfect

EVDL Administrator
On 15 Mar 2014 at 13:39, nicklogan wrote:

> I always considered a lease a sucker's game and have never even bought
> a new car, but this [Smart ED deal] was too good to pass up.

Maybe I've missed something, but it seems to me that when they want to
stimulate ICEV sales, the manufacturers offer rebates.  I haven't seen any
factory rebates on EVs, just lease bargains.  Have I missed some?

Something to think about: GM didn't sell EV1s, only leased them.  They knew
they were going to get out of EVs as soon as they could, and didn't want to
have to support them with parts and service long-term.  Hence those heart-
rending photos of EV1 morgues.

http://www.evnut.com/ev1_crushed.htm

> At the end of lease I'll look for a new EV to buy and will likely have
> more choices at a lower price.

I hope you will have more choices.  But given what I've seen the automakers
do in the past, I'm sorry to say that I'm not as confident as you are.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: EVLN: Fiat 500e EV> close to perfect

Rick Beebe
Understandable but you CAN buy a Smart outright. And you don't have to
rent the battery if you don't want to. The rental period can be for up
to 10 years and is $80/mo. The nice thing about a rental is that
anything that goes wrong with the battery--including prematurely losing
capacity--and it's their problem.

No rebate but if you don't want to lease you can buy for 0.9% ARP for
0-60 months.

Certainly the EV1 was a trauma I don't want to see repeated but I think
there's enough critical mass of EV manufacturers that it can't happen
again. Certainly those compliance cars only available in California may
disappear but I think the rest will stay around.

--Rick

On 3/15/2014 10:36 PM, EVDL Administrator wrote:

> On 15 Mar 2014 at 13:39, nicklogan wrote:
>
>> I always considered a lease a sucker's game and have never even bought
>> a new car, but this [Smart ED deal] was too good to pass up.
>
> Maybe I've missed something, but it seems to me that when they want to
> stimulate ICEV sales, the manufacturers offer rebates.  I haven't seen any
> factory rebates on EVs, just lease bargains.  Have I missed some?
>
> Something to think about: GM didn't sell EV1s, only leased them.  They knew
> they were going to get out of EVs as soon as they could, and didn't want to
> have to support them with parts and service long-term.  Hence those heart-
> rending photos of EV1 morgues.
>
> http://www.evnut.com/ev1_crushed.htm
>
>> At the end of lease I'll look for a new EV to buy and will likely have
>> more choices at a lower price.
>
> I hope you will have more choices.  But given what I've seen the automakers
> do in the past, I'm sorry to say that I'm not as confident as you are.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator

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Re: EVLN: Fiat 500e EV> close to perfect

Rick Beebe
In reply to this post by nicklogan
On 3/15/2014 4:39 PM, nicklogan wrote:
> Thanks for the tip, Rick. I was able to get a 3 year lease on a 2013 Smart ED
> for $99/mo plus tax today. I got the last one available in Connecticut
> through a Mecedes Benz dealer. By opting into their Battery Assurance Plan
> most of the payment is actually going toward leasing the battery (only
> $20/mo toward the "glider"). Since I don't plan on buying it at the end of
> the lease, I don't care if that means my buyout price would be higher. I pay
> almost as much a month in gas to commute as the payment so it's a cheap way
> into a new EV.  At the end of lease I'll look for a new EV to buy and will
> likely have more choices at a lower price.

Congratulations! Hartford or Fairfield?

I couldn't resist the price either. I have a Ford C-Max Energi plug-in
hybrid and all summer it does my entire commute on battery power. But
this winter it only goes 11 miles on electric AND insists on running the
engine to warm things up. So even though I'm not using a lot of gas it
annoys me to use any. Problem solved.


> Really, I think it means I just became part of Daimlers battery research
> program - they get to keep the $7500 federal credit while I pay to rent
> their battery while they test the battery. The last generation of Smarts had
> the battery made by Tesla, this one was made by a Daimler sudsidiary. The
> car almost gets thrown in for free. I always considered a lease a sucker's
> game and have never even bought a new car, but this was too good to pass up.
> Maybe a new Leaf the next time. Now I can take my lead sled pickup off the
> road to upgrade to lithium batteries and take my time about it.

There's so many ways to do batteries wrong that I don't mind paying the
battery rental price. There's the minor annoyance of sending out two
checks every month but I don't think the payment would be substantially
different if I hadn't opted for it.

Interestingly I too have a lead sled pickup which has been off the road
all Winter getting a lithium upgrade. I've been doing what I can in the
basement but it's been too darn cold to work on the actual truck very much.

--Rick

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Re: EVLN: Fiat 500e EV> close to perfect

JoeS.
In reply to this post by Rick Beebe
Back onto the 500e topic. I found it interesting that the Chicago Tribune found it necessary to delete my comments, which I thought were quite civil. In my test drive of the 500e I liked it, but felt that the following three drawbacks were sufficient to keep me from buying one:
1. The regeneration with accelerator released was pathetic. The only way to regen that car is to actually apply the brake and not know whether you're regenning or both regenning and braking.
2. Not having Quick Charge (especially CHAdeMO) is a significant drawback, especially since in the SF Bay Area so many of the public charging stations are getting PHEV'd. Don't dare longer trips any more.
3. The inability to push the car when someone is not in the driver's seat (or if the 12v battery went dead) is, to me, a safety issue caused by this silly 'safety' feature.
My i-MiEV offers more car for less money, although, arguably, it could be considered less cute.
Joe Siudzinski
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Re: EVLN: Fiat 500e EV> close to perfect

Cor van de Water
How can regen be a reason to buy or not? It is just a means to get
a few percent of energy back. I wished my current vehicle had regen,
but the DC series motor and controller do not allow regenning,
I bought the vehicle because it was electric, not because of a
few percent of energy recapturing (though I do know what I am
missing, since my previous EV truck did have an AC drive with regen)
I also have made a short drive in an ActiveE which has amazing regen,
probably too much (it is easy to waste energy by slowing down too much
since regen is only about 50% efficient compared to not burning the
energy to unnecessarily accelerate in the first place...

In my opinion, level 1 charging is still the most widely available
opportunity charging means, so I would consider that as highest prio
but your mileage may vary. That is the reason I am carrying a 100ft
extension cord in my truck and I *have* parked 8 stalls away from the
EV charging station without problem, still being able to charge.
But more often I am visiting friends, work or doing volunteer work where
there are outdoor outlets, so level 1 charging present where I am but no
faster charging within a mile.

I read somewhere on the article about the 500e that the driver,
even though he had no schematic and was not an expert, figured out which
wire to cut to disable the unhelpful "auto-park", so that issue can
be circumvented if you want.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email] Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of JoeS.
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2014 10:03 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Fiat 500e EV> close to perfect

Back onto the 500e topic. I found it interesting that the Chicago
Tribune
found it necessary to delete my comments, which I thought were quite
civil.
In my test drive of the 500e I liked it, but felt that the following
three
drawbacks were sufficient to keep me from buying one:
1. The regeneration with accelerator released was pathetic. The only way
to
regen that car is to actually apply the brake and not know whether
you're
regenning or both regenning and braking.
2. Not having Quick Charge (especially CHAdeMO) is a significant
drawback,
especially since in the SF Bay Area so many of the public charging
stations
are getting PHEV'd. Don't dare longer trips any more.
3. The inability to push the car when someone is not in the driver's
seat
(or if the 12v battery went dead) is, to me, a safety issue caused by
this
silly 'safety' feature.
My i-MiEV offers more car for less money, although, arguably, it could
be
considered less cute.



-----
Joe Siudzinski
--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Fiat-5
00e-EV-close-to-perfect-tp4668392p4668455.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
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Re: EVLN: Fiat 500e EV> close to perfect

tomw
How can regen be a reason to buy or not?

You mean compared to what color the vehicle is, what wheel covers, LED running lights, what size computer screen...?
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How can regen be a reason to buy or not? : EVLN: Fiat 500e EV> close to perfect

brucedp5
Way-way back when it was decision time, do I put my name on a long-long
waiting list to only lease a GM EV1, or do I get a conversion that can
seat 4, that will be mine, and possibly be driven by my son to school?

I chose to have a 1985 Chevy S-10 Blazer converted to electric, and
drive it right-away. my drive train choices the converter (Solar
Electric, now defunct) had was a Curtis controller and an ADVanced DC
series motor (no regen), or there was a shunt motor and controller Zapi
(had regen) was selling.

But everyone was satisfied with the first, and near no one had the
latter. The person who had a conversion shop up in Sacramento, CA (who
also had the U.S. distribution rights to sell zapi chargers. He had
built a conversion using a shunt motor and a Zapi controller that had
regen. It was an OK drive, but I knew my Blazer would be heavy after the
conversion (2 tons in fact), and I did not believe the shunt motor and
controller where up to the job to handle the load.

Too bad because I really wanted regen. Regaining some miles is good, I
planned to go everywhere and anywhere in my EV, which included
mountainous driving. The problem with going up, is you will need to come
back down. And in a 2 ton EV without regen, that is brakes pumping all
the way.

As I found out, after some fun up in the mountains, and then pumping the
brakes to safely get back down to the valley (home base), it felt that I
would soon need another brake job.

So, while regaining a few miles is good to stiffen the pack, my just as
important need for regen in an EV, is dynamic braking. At EVS-21 I
especially liked the regen ACPropulsion had on their pih. They mounted a
slider just under the shifter, so the driver could adjust the regen on
the fly. I knew if I were up in the mountains, I could set the regen to
max and use almost nil friction brakes coming back down.

So, that is how regen became doubly important to me.

Now a days, all production-plugins use AC motors and controllers that
have regen (but may not allow the driver to adjust how aggressive that
regen is, i.e. have drive-style/type settings: normal, eco/long-range,
sport/performance, rain/snow, etc.).

Regen and how much control I as the driver would have over it, is
important in my next EV purchase. I would say just as important as my
charging ability (and we all know how much of a charging-nut I am).


{brucedp.150m.com}



-
On Sun, Mar 16, 2014, at 07:33 AM, tomw wrote:
> /How can regen be a reason to buy or not?/
>
> You mean compared to what color the vehicle is, what wheel covers, LED
> running lights, what size computer screen...?
-

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Re: How can regen be a reason to buy or not? : EVLN: Fiat 500e EV> close to perfect

Peri Hartman
I'll "second" that regen is important.  Another example is city driving.  If
you have a lot of hills and stop & go every few blocks, regen can add a lot
of range, even if it's only 70 or 80% efficient.

I don't have an obvious way to measure this.  Has anyone else done so?  The
closest I can come is a poor measurement done in my minivan.  About 24mpg on
the freeway if I drive carefully.  Around 12 in the city.  That ratio should
roughly translate to any vehicle.  

Still, I don't know how much regen would recapture.  Besides its own losses,
there's wind loss.  Under 30mph I'm assuming that's pretty small.  I guess I
could compute it, but that would still be full of assumptions.  Best would
be to measure with and without regen.

Regardless, regen is an important feature to me.  Comes before most other
things.

Peri

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Bruce EVangel Parmenter
Sent: 16 March, 2014 1:49 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] How can regen be a reason to buy or not? : EVLN: Fiat 500e
EV> close to perfect

Way-way back when it was decision time, do I put my name on a long-long
waiting list to only lease a GM EV1, or do I get a conversion that can
seat 4, that will be mine, and possibly be driven by my son to school?

I chose to have a 1985 Chevy S-10 Blazer converted to electric, and
drive it right-away. my drive train choices the converter (Solar
Electric, now defunct) had was a Curtis controller and an ADVanced DC
series motor (no regen), or there was a shunt motor and controller Zapi
(had regen) was selling.

But everyone was satisfied with the first, and near no one had the
latter. The person who had a conversion shop up in Sacramento, CA (who
also had the U.S. distribution rights to sell zapi chargers. He had
built a conversion using a shunt motor and a Zapi controller that had
regen. It was an OK drive, but I knew my Blazer would be heavy after the
conversion (2 tons in fact), and I did not believe the shunt motor and
controller where up to the job to handle the load.

Too bad because I really wanted regen. Regaining some miles is good, I
planned to go everywhere and anywhere in my EV, which included
mountainous driving. The problem with going up, is you will need to come
back down. And in a 2 ton EV without regen, that is brakes pumping all
the way.

As I found out, after some fun up in the mountains, and then pumping the
brakes to safely get back down to the valley (home base), it felt that I
would soon need another brake job.

So, while regaining a few miles is good to stiffen the pack, my just as
important need for regen in an EV, is dynamic braking. At EVS-21 I
especially liked the regen ACPropulsion had on their pih. They mounted a
slider just under the shifter, so the driver could adjust the regen on
the fly. I knew if I were up in the mountains, I could set the regen to
max and use almost nil friction brakes coming back down.

So, that is how regen became doubly important to me.

Now a days, all production-plugins use AC motors and controllers that
have regen (but may not allow the driver to adjust how aggressive that
regen is, i.e. have drive-style/type settings: normal, eco/long-range,
sport/performance, rain/snow, etc.).

Regen and how much control I as the driver would have over it, is
important in my next EV purchase. I would say just as important as my
charging ability (and we all know how much of a charging-nut I am).


{brucedp.150m.com}



-
On Sun, Mar 16, 2014, at 07:33 AM, tomw wrote:
> /How can regen be a reason to buy or not?/
>
> You mean compared to what color the vehicle is, what wheel covers, LED
> running lights, what size computer screen...?
-

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http://www.fastmail.fm - A no graphics, no pop-ups email service

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EVs had large price cuts = incentives/rebates: Fiat 500e EV> close to perfect

brucedp5
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator
I think you forgot, all the EVs got a large price cut not too long ago
which made for a large paradigm shift in the market.


http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Zoe-UK-lease-price-drops-to-just-189-mo-tp4667916.html
EVLN: Zoe UK lease price drops to just £189/mo  Feb 10, 2014

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Leaf-EV-price-cuts-a-constrained-supply-production-increase-tp4666748.html
EVLN: Leaf EV price-cuts> a constrained-supply> production increase  
Dec 17, 2013

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Who-s-your-plug-in-hybrid-Daddy-tp4666494.html
EVLN: Who's your plug-in-hybrid Daddy?  Nov 30, 2013 ... price was cut
to just below $35,000 for 2014 ...

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Mitsubishi-cuts-Japanese-EV-price-by-up-to-US-9-100-tp4666299.html
EVLN: Mitsubishi cuts Japanese EV price by up to US$9,100  Nov 18, 2013

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Focus-Electric-Asleep-at-the-wheel-6mo-later-4k-Price-Cut-tp4664163.html
EVLN: Focus-Electric Asleep-at-the-wheel/6mo-later $4k Price-Cut  Jul
11, 2013

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Price-Cuts-Work-Creating-Wait-Lists-For-Honda-Fit-EVs-tp4663644.html
EVLN: Price Cuts Work, Creating Wait Lists For Honda Fit EVs  Jun 18,
2013

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Leaf-Price-Cut-One-of-the-Cheapest-Cars-to-Own-tp4661706.html
EVLN: Leaf Price Cut = One of the Cheapest Cars to Own  Mar 07, 2013


{brucedp.150m.com}



-
On Sat, Mar 15, 2014, at 07:36 PM, EVDL Administrator wrote:
> On 15 Mar 2014 at 13:39, nicklogan wrote:
>
> > I always considered a lease a sucker's game and have never even bought
> > a new car, but this [Smart ED deal] was too good to pass up.
>
> Maybe I've missed something, but it seems to me that when they want to
> stimulate ICEV sales, the manufacturers offer rebates.  I haven't seen
> any > factory rebates on EVs, just lease bargains.  Have I missed some? ...
-

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Re: How can regen be a reason to buy or not? : EVLN: Fiat 500e EV> close to perfect

tomw
In reply to this post by Peri Hartman
"I'll "second" that regen is important.  Another example is city driving.  If
you have a lot of hills and stop & go every few blocks, regen can add a lot
of range, even if it's only 70 or 80% efficient.

I don't have an obvious way to measure this.  Has anyone else done so?
"

I've posted data from my car on diyelectricar a number of times over the last 4 years. I data logged battery I, V, Ah with a TBS gauge, and vehicle miles, elevation and speed with a GPS. Doesn't seem to affect anyone though. As Lakoff, cognitive scientist, says "If the facts don't fit the frame, the facts are rejected."

My data indicates that around half of my car's kinetic energy goes into potential energy in the batteries when stopping. Going down a 9 mile long hill, around 2500 ft elevation change, the energy into the batteries by regen was about 24% of what it took to drive up, and about half of the vehicle's potential energy at the top.  On a short drive for a video, where I drove about 100 yards at 25 mph, stopped at a stop sign, turned left and drove about 1/4 mile at max 45 mph, turned right onto a freeway on ramp, accelerated onto the freeway and drove about 2 miles with max 70 mph speed, exited, stopped, turned right, drove about 1/4 mile, turned right and drove about 1/2 mile at 35 mph, regen was 10% of the energy used. I've also measured around 10% on other, longer local trips.

Summary of some posts here:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=366384&postcount=20
Would have posted here but can't do graphs/figures here.
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Re: How can regen be a reason to buy or not?

Bill Woodcock
I picked up a Ford C-Max Energi last year and, while I just take regen for granted in my full EVs, I actually appreciate the regen in the plug-in hybrid more…  When you’re taking a longer trip, and switch over to gas, the regen is still working.  So it’s regenerating electricity from kinetic energy that was generated with gasoline.  Sounds obvious, once you think of it, but I’d never really considered what a benefit that is, nor how much better it would make me feel about the gasoline portion of longer trips.  Particularly in stop-and-go traffic.  It’s one of the things that makes me happiest about the car.

Another general observation about car satisfaction…  There’s a real watershed around 2011, where special “features” like proximity keys, automatic headlights, bluetooth integration, MP3 indexing of USB storage devices, etc., became standard relatively far down the product lines of Ford-family and Volkswagen-family vehicles.  They’re huge companies, and put a lot of work into making those things work in their high-end vehicles.  They’re all features that could be had, previously, in really expensive vehicles.  But now that the performance of the vehicle computer isn’t a contributor to the cost of the vehicle, and the marginal cost of replicating the features in software is essentially zero, there’s no reason for those companies not to roll many of those features into their low-end vehicles, to make them more competitive than similarly low-end vehicles from other manufacturers who haven’t done that work.  And it better amortizes the software development costs, over a much larger number of vehicles sold.  So they just do it.  And it makes for a significantly better car-ownership experience.  If you haven’t owned a post-2011 vehicle, and can afford to switch to one, you may find yourself happy with a cheaper car than you’d expect.  Those little things really add up, and make a difference.

                                -Bill




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Re: How can regen be a reason to buy or not?

EVDL Administrator
In reply to this post by tomw
On 17 Mar 2014 at 8:16, tomw wrote:

> I don't have an obvious way to measure this.  Has anyone else done so?/"
>
> I've posted data from my car on diyelectricar a number of times over the
> last 4 years.

And I've posted this link many times here :

http://www.brusa.biz/index.php?id=43&L=1

As with almost everything on a car, how much you get out of regen depends on
where and how you drive, and of course on how aggressively the regen is
designed.  The above link tells the story of Axel Krause's Mini-Evergreen
with 18kwh of NiCd batteries crossing the Alps twice in one day, motoring up
the mountains and regenerating (or as he says, recuperating) down.  It shows
quite clearly how regen - and coasting - helped him make a run of 220km
(136mi) each way on 23.5kwh (measured at the socket) or 169 wh/mi.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: How can regen be a reason to buy or not?

Ruckus
In reply to this post by Bill Woodcock
You mean like radio and stuff?  Yeah, that's getting pretty fancy.

I feel pretty techno-geeky plugging an IPod into the factory cassette using
one of those tape with a wire dangling setups...
On Mar 17, 2014 10:49 AM, "Bill Woodcock" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I picked up a Ford C-Max Energi last year and, while I just take regen for
> granted in my full EVs, I actually appreciate the regen in the plug-in
> hybrid more...  When you're taking a longer trip, and switch over to gas, the
> regen is still working.  So it's regenerating electricity from kinetic
> energy that was generated with gasoline.  Sounds obvious, once you think of
> it, but I'd never really considered what a benefit that is, nor how much
> better it would make me feel about the gasoline portion of longer trips.
>  Particularly in stop-and-go traffic.  It's one of the things that makes me
> happiest about the car.
>
> Another general observation about car satisfaction...  There's a real
> watershed around 2011, where special "features" like proximity keys,
> automatic headlights, bluetooth integration, MP3 indexing of USB storage
> devices, etc., became standard relatively far down the product lines of
> Ford-family and Volkswagen-family vehicles.  They're huge companies, and
> put a lot of work into making those things work in their high-end vehicles.
>  They're all features that could be had, previously, in really expensive
> vehicles.  But now that the performance of the vehicle computer isn't a
> contributor to the cost of the vehicle, and the marginal cost of
> replicating the features in software is essentially zero, there's no reason
> for those companies not to roll many of those features into their low-end
> vehicles, to make them more competitive than similarly low-end vehicles
> from other manufacturers who haven't done that work.  And it better
> amortizes the software development costs, over a much larger number of
> vehicles sold.  So they just do it.  And it makes for a significantly
> better car-ownership experience.  If you haven't owned a post-2011 vehicle,
> and can afford to switch to one, you may find yourself happy with a cheaper
> car than you'd expect.  Those little things really add up, and make a
> difference.
>
>                                 -Bill
>
>
>
>
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Re: How can regen be a reason to buy or not? : EVLN: Fiat 500e EV> close to perfect

Peri Hartman
In reply to this post by tomw
Tom, thanks for the info.  

I'm not sure what you mean in your 2500' climb: first you say regen put back
about 24% of the energy and then you say that (or something) was about 1/2
the potential energy.  Are you saying that the regen recouped about 24% of
the energy expended in that scenario?

I hope my regen is better than 10% in city driving.  In your second example
you include some higher speed segments which would add a lot of wind
resistance.  My speeds are normally below 30mph.

Peri

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of tomw
Sent: 17 March, 2014 8:16 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] How can regen be a reason to buy or not? : EVLN: Fiat
500e EV> close to perfect

"/I'll "second" that regen is important.  Another example is city driving.
If
you have a lot of hills and stop & go every few blocks, regen can add a lot
of range, even if it's only 70 or 80% efficient.

I don't have an obvious way to measure this.  Has anyone else done so?/"

I've posted data from my car on diyelectricar a number of times over the
last 4 years. I data logged battery I, V, Ah with a TBS gauge, and vehicle
miles, elevation and speed with a GPS. Doesn't seem to affect anyone though.
As Lakoff, cognitive scientist, says "If the facts don't fit the frame, the
facts are rejected."

My data indicates that around half of my car's kinetic energy goes into
potential energy in the batteries when stopping. Going down a 9 mile long
hill, around 2500 ft elevation change, the energy into the batteries by
regen was about 24% of what it took to drive up, and about half of the
vehicle's potential energy at the top.  On a short drive for a video, where
I drove about 100 yards at 25 mph, stopped at a stop sign, turned left and
drove about 1/4 mile at max 45 mph, turned right onto a freeway on ramp,
accelerated onto the freeway and drove about 2 miles with max 70 mph speed,
exited, stopped, turned right, drove about 1/4 mile, turned right and drove
about 1/2 mile at 35 mph, regen was 10% of the energy used. I've also
measured around 10% on other, longer local trips.

Summary of some posts here:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=366384&postcount=20
Would have posted here but can't do graphs/figures here.



--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Fiat-500e-
EV-close-to-perfect-tp4668392p4668489.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
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Re: How can regen be a reason to buy or not? : EVLN: Fiat 500e EV> close to perfect

Michael Ross
I know on an E Bike the time spent braking is almost nil.  You naturally
conserve you effort by coasting as much as possible and trying to hit
lights on a roll.   Using brakes is a great disappointment.   The same is
true for downhill runs - you mostly want to go as fast as you can, regen
would counter that - a lot.  I am in the camp that regen is an expensive
waste of $ on an human powered, electric assist vehicle.

When I am driving a car, it is not that different.  I mostly try not to
rush ahead only to stop quickly, and sometimes I can make my commute with
almost no braking.  That total time on a 40 minute drive - couldn't be more
than 5 minutes.  If I am right, that is 12.5% of time.   The inefficiency
would then take half that away

My estimate of braking time is probably quite high, but I don't know how
much.  I would guess no more than 6% return from regen.


On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 2:03 PM, Peri Hartman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Tom, thanks for the info.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean in your 2500' climb: first you say regen put
> back
> about 24% of the energy and then you say that (or something) was about 1/2
> the potential energy.  Are you saying that the regen recouped about 24% of
> the energy expended in that scenario?
>
> I hope my regen is better than 10% in city driving.  In your second example
> you include some higher speed segments which would add a lot of wind
> resistance.  My speeds are normally below 30mph.
>
> Peri
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf
> Of tomw
> Sent: 17 March, 2014 8:16 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] How can regen be a reason to buy or not? : EVLN: Fiat
> 500e EV> close to perfect
>
> "/I'll "second" that regen is important.  Another example is city driving.
> If
> you have a lot of hills and stop & go every few blocks, regen can add a lot
> of range, even if it's only 70 or 80% efficient.
>
> I don't have an obvious way to measure this.  Has anyone else done so?/"
>
> I've posted data from my car on diyelectricar a number of times over the
> last 4 years. I data logged battery I, V, Ah with a TBS gauge, and vehicle
> miles, elevation and speed with a GPS. Doesn't seem to affect anyone
> though.
> As Lakoff, cognitive scientist, says "If the facts don't fit the frame, the
> facts are rejected."
>
> My data indicates that around half of my car's kinetic energy goes into
> potential energy in the batteries when stopping. Going down a 9 mile long
> hill, around 2500 ft elevation change, the energy into the batteries by
> regen was about 24% of what it took to drive up, and about half of the
> vehicle's potential energy at the top.  On a short drive for a video, where
> I drove about 100 yards at 25 mph, stopped at a stop sign, turned left and
> drove about 1/4 mile at max 45 mph, turned right onto a freeway on ramp,
> accelerated onto the freeway and drove about 2 miles with max 70 mph speed,
> exited, stopped, turned right, drove about 1/4 mile, turned right and drove
> about 1/2 mile at 35 mph, regen was 10% of the energy used. I've also
> measured around 10% on other, longer local trips.
>
> Summary of some posts here:
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=366384&postcount=20
> Would have posted here but can't do graphs/figures here.
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
>
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Fiat-500e-
> EV-close-to-perfect-tp4668392p4668489.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>


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Re: How can regen be a reason to buy or not? : EVLN: Fiat 500e EV> close to perfect

Ruckus
Are there any OEM EV's that Don't have regen?  I don't know of any.  Its
kind of a no-brainer that if you can recharge the battery AND save on brake
wear at the same time it is a clear benefit.  Sure, it's only a percentage,
and it will vary quite a bit among people and routes, but still it is
recouping energy that would otherwise have been completely lost and turned
into brake dust.

Remember also, that most drivers waste a lot of energy.  This doesn't
change just because they bought an ev.  The harder you drive the car the
more benefit you get from regen.  NYC taxis would definitely want regen.
On Mar 17, 2014 1:01 PM, "Michael Ross" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I know on an E Bike the time spent braking is almost nil.  You naturally
> conserve you effort by coasting as much as possible and trying to hit
> lights on a roll.   Using brakes is a great disappointment.   The same is
> true for downhill runs - you mostly want to go as fast as you can, regen
> would counter that - a lot.  I am in the camp that regen is an expensive
> waste of $ on an human powered, electric assist vehicle.
>
> When I am driving a car, it is not that different.  I mostly try not to
> rush ahead only to stop quickly, and sometimes I can make my commute with
> almost no braking.  That total time on a 40 minute drive - couldn't be more
> than 5 minutes.  If I am right, that is 12.5% of time.   The inefficiency
> would then take half that away
>
> My estimate of braking time is probably quite high, but I don't know how
> much.  I would guess no more than 6% return from regen.
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 2:03 PM, Peri Hartman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Tom, thanks for the info.
> >
> > I'm not sure what you mean in your 2500' climb: first you say regen put
> > back
> > about 24% of the energy and then you say that (or something) was about
> 1/2
> > the potential energy.  Are you saying that the regen recouped about 24%
> of
> > the energy expended in that scenario?
> >
> > I hope my regen is better than 10% in city driving.  In your second
> example
> > you include some higher speed segments which would add a lot of wind
> > resistance.  My speeds are normally below 30mph.
> >
> > Peri
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> > Behalf
> > Of tomw
> > Sent: 17 March, 2014 8:16 AM
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] How can regen be a reason to buy or not? : EVLN: Fiat
> > 500e EV> close to perfect
> >
> > "/I'll "second" that regen is important.  Another example is city
> driving.
> > If
> > you have a lot of hills and stop & go every few blocks, regen can add a
> lot
> > of range, even if it's only 70 or 80% efficient.
> >
> > I don't have an obvious way to measure this.  Has anyone else done so?/"
> >
> > I've posted data from my car on diyelectricar a number of times over the
> > last 4 years. I data logged battery I, V, Ah with a TBS gauge, and
> vehicle
> > miles, elevation and speed with a GPS. Doesn't seem to affect anyone
> > though.
> > As Lakoff, cognitive scientist, says "If the facts don't fit the frame,
> the
> > facts are rejected."
> >
> > My data indicates that around half of my car's kinetic energy goes into
> > potential energy in the batteries when stopping. Going down a 9 mile long
> > hill, around 2500 ft elevation change, the energy into the batteries by
> > regen was about 24% of what it took to drive up, and about half of the
> > vehicle's potential energy at the top.  On a short drive for a video,
> where
> > I drove about 100 yards at 25 mph, stopped at a stop sign, turned left
> and
> > drove about 1/4 mile at max 45 mph, turned right onto a freeway on ramp,
> > accelerated onto the freeway and drove about 2 miles with max 70 mph
> speed,
> > exited, stopped, turned right, drove about 1/4 mile, turned right and
> drove
> > about 1/2 mile at 35 mph, regen was 10% of the energy used. I've also
> > measured around 10% on other, longer local trips.
> >
> > Summary of some posts here:
> > http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=366384&postcount=20
> > Would have posted here but can't do graphs/figures here.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> >
> >
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Fiat-500e-
> > EV-close-to-perfect-tp4668392p4668489.html
> > Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> > Nabble.com.
> > _______________________________________________
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
> > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
> happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
> *Dalai Lama *
>
> Tell me what it is you plan to do
> With your one wild and precious life?
> Mary Oliver, "The summer day."
>
> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
> Thomas A. Edison<
> http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>
>
> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
> *Warren Buffet*
>
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 550-2430 Land
> (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google
> Phone
> (919) 631-1451 Cell
> (919) 513-0418 Desk
>
> [hidden email]
> <[hidden email]>
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