EVLN: Fisker's 3D electrode li-ion promises 500Mi EV& 1min recharge

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EVLN: Fisker's 3D electrode li-ion promises 500Mi EV& 1min recharge

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list


http://in.pcmag.com/news/117575/fisker-battery-promises-500-mile-ev-range-1-minute-charging
Fisker Battery Promises 500 Mile EV Range, 1 Minute Charging
Nov. 14, 2017  Matthew Humphries

[image  
http://sm.pcmag.com/pcmag_in/news/f/fisker-bat/fisker-battery-promises-500-mile-ev-range-1-minute-charging_ww1v.jpg
500-mile-li-ion
]

This new battery uses three-dimensional electrodes to hold 2.5x the energy
density of lithium-ion batteries.

Lithium-ion continues to be the number one choice for rechargeable batteries
powering the gadgets we have in our pockets, the laptops we have in our
bags, and the electric vehicles we drive. But we need new battery tech which
is both safer to use and offers much higher energy density. Automotive
company Fisker may have the answer.

Fisker is best known for creating the Fisker Karma electric luxury sports
sedan back in 2012 and now the EMotion [
https://www.pcmag.com/news/349198/henrik-fisker-unveils-his-tesla-competitor
]. As Green Car Congress reports, Fisker this week filed a patent for a new
solid-state battery. If it lives up to expectations, this battery will
provide electric vehicles with a range of over 500 miles on a single charge.
On top of that, recharging will only take a minute.

That impressive combination of range and charge time is thanks to the use of
three-dimensional electrodes by Fisker. It allows the solid-state battery to
hold 2.5 times the energy density of the equivalent lithium-ion battery.

Fisker has apparently already overcome some limitations of current
solid-state battery technology including cold temperature operation and
charging time. Low cost and scalable manufacturing is promised, but Fisker
also points to the flexibility of its battery tech allowing it to be tweaked
to work with existing tooling, which again cuts costs and speeds up
production.

We shouldn't expect to see Fisker's battery appear anytime soon, though. The
patent is filed and Fisker is now talking with both automotive and
non-automotive companies about partnerships. Commercial application of the
solid-state battery isn't expected until 2023. Even so, one minute
recharging in five years sounds pretty good to me.
[© 2017 ZiffDavis]




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Re: EVLN: Fisker's 3D electrode li-ion promises 500Mi EV& 1min recharge

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On 20 Nov 2017 at 3:04, brucedp5 via EV wrote:

> If it lives up to expectations, this battery will provide electric
> vehicles with a range of over 500 miles on a single charge. On top of
> that, recharging will only take a minute.

How many times have I read these words?  Especially the "If it lives up to
expectations" part.

An EV with a 200 mile range will need a battery of at least 40kWh capacity.  
Charging that battery to even 80% in 1 minute would require an electrical
service with a capacity of roughly 2 GIGAwatts - and that's just for one
car.  

If you wanted to charge, say, just 5 cars at once, you'd need at least 10gW
of capacity.  That's about 1.3% of the ENTIRE US capacity.  

Where exactly is that kind of capacity going to come from?

I suspect this piece is little more than trolling for investors.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: EVLN: Fisker's 3D electrode li-ion promises 500Mi EV& 1min recharge

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I agree, the 1 minute claim really glosses over the bigger picture. It
could become possible, though, if charge stations were composed of
battery banks which recharged over, say, 30 minutes. But, overall, you
could not service one vehicle every minute, continuously. Same as the
original problem.

On the other hand, a full charge won't be needed on a daily basis for
most cars. Those taking a freeway trip will need quick recharges,
perhaps. (But 5 minutes might be more reasonable.) Otherwise,
individuals might need to charge only once a week, assuming they can't
do it at home.

So, a 1 minute charge time might be supportable as long as there aren't
too many 1 minute charges in a row.

Peri

------ Original Message ------
From: "EVDL Administrator via EV" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "EVDL Administrator" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 20-Nov-17 7:54:52 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Fisker's 3D electrode li-ion promises 500Mi
EV& 1min recharge

>On 20 Nov 2017 at 3:04, brucedp5 via EV wrote:
>
>>If it lives up to expectations, this battery will provide electric
>>vehicles with a range of over 500 miles on a single charge. On top of
>>that, recharging will only take a minute.
>
>How many times have I read these words?  Especially the "If it lives up
>to
>expectations" part.
>
>An EV with a 200 mile range will need a battery of at least 40kWh
>capacity.
>Charging that battery to even 80% in 1 minute would require an
>electrical
>service with a capacity of roughly 2 GIGAwatts - and that's just for
>one
>car.
>
>If you wanted to charge, say, just 5 cars at once, you'd need at least
>10gW
>of capacity.  That's about 1.3% of the ENTIRE US capacity.
>
>Where exactly is that kind of capacity going to come from?
>
>I suspect this piece is little more than trolling for investors.
>
>David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>EVDL Administrator
>
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
>reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
>email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
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>

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Re: EVLN: Fisker's 3D electrode li-ion promises 500Mi EV& 1min recharge

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
David,
In my book charging a 40kWh battery in 1/60th hour (one minute) to 80%
means
40 x 0.8 x 60 = 1920 kW, almost 2 Megawatt.
Still a pretty large number but not the power consumption of one of the
smaller states.
Since fueling a gas car can easily take 5 mins, I presume that 400kW of
power would be
more realistic and this is the capcity that a smallish business building
is connected at,
typical 480V 3-Phase so now you are down to less than 300 Amp per phase.
Of course, charging multiple cars will bring this up again but then you
can buffer with
a battery bank and just have a constant draw that is the average of the
amount of
oiwer that is delivered, so the time to pull up, get out of the car,
authenticate yourself
(with chip card) and pay (if not included in the authentication) and
after filling up, pulling
away from the station for the next person to be able to charge - during
all that time no
charge flows, so the average is always quite a bit lower than the peak.
With a battery bank to smooth out the peaks over slightly longer time it
can be assured
that no "pump" will cause more than half the peak value,
so with 5 "pumps" you will need no more than 1 MW connection.
Hope this clarifies,
Cor.

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of EVDL
Administrator via EV
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 7:55 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: EVDL Administrator
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Fisker's 3D electrode li-ion promises 500Mi
EV& 1min recharge

On 20 Nov 2017 at 3:04, brucedp5 via EV wrote:

> If it lives up to expectations, this battery will provide electric
> vehicles with a range of over 500 miles on a single charge. On top of
> that, recharging will only take a minute.

How many times have I read these words?  Especially the "If it lives up
to expectations" part.

An EV with a 200 mile range will need a battery of at least 40kWh
capacity.  
Charging that battery to even 80% in 1 minute would require an
electrical service with a capacity of roughly 2 GIGAwatts - and that's
just for one car.  

If you wanted to charge, say, just 5 cars at once, you'd need at least
10gW of capacity.  That's about 1.3% of the ENTIRE US capacity.  

Where exactly is that kind of capacity going to come from?

I suspect this piece is little more than trolling for investors.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL
Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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Re: EVLN: Fisker's 3D electrode li-ion promises 500Mi EV& 1min recharge

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On 20 Nov 2017 at 9:38, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

> In my book charging a 40kWh battery in 1/60th hour (one minute) to 80%
> means 40 x 0.8 x 60 = 1920 kW, almost 2 Megawatt.

Thanks, absolutely correct.  I got unconscionably careless with my powers of
10.  That shouldn't have passed the sniff test here.  Sorry.

For sure, 2 megawatts is much more manageable than 2 gigawatts, though 10 or
20 megawatts to run an EV "filling station" is still a pretty substantial
amount of power.  

Using a battery as a load leveler would certainly help, but also would add
operating expense.  It also makes me think about the PV folks who tout the
benefits of grid intertie for leveling THEIR loads.  :-)

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: EVLN: Fisker's 3D electrode li-ion promises 500Mi EV& 1min recharge

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
David,
Talk to the operator of a large plant with heavy electric draws, how
they think about
load leveling.
I know of plants where they bought specialized equipment to sequence the
different
draws of startup of electric motors, just to reduce the peak draw as
their bill was
more determined by the maximum peak power that they would draw
instantaneously
during any time in a month, than the total electric consumption.
Reason is simple: the power plant needed to have that much power "on
tap"
even though it was not used 99.999% of the time.
So, starting different motors out of sequence and even turning some
loads OFF
deliberately just for the few seconds that the largest electric motors
were starting,
saved them big bucks, just from reducing their peaks.
And a big heater or electrolyzer that is turned off for a few seconds
makes no difference
in the result of that process other than that it may take a few seconds
longer for the
end result, but there are immediate savings.
And that was before battery storage was very common and efficient, today
they may opt
to start motors entirely from stored power.
I think that fast charging with load leveling, whether by battery
storage or by throttling
all stations a little if all try to draw max at the same time, until one
or more no longer
takes max power and the majority of the power can flow to a fewer nr of
stations,
certainly makes sense to reduce both cost of the connection as well as
pek power bill.
Note that many fast charging stations today need a commercial power
connection
because the 100+ Amps at around 400VDC means over 40kW continuous so it
is typically c
connected at 480V. EMW has developed a battery backed fast charging
ChadeMo station
that can live off the 12kW available from an RV outlet (240V 50A) and I
expect that just
the savings in connection required (residential instead of commercial)
makes up for the
investment in the battery bank.
Cor.

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of EVDL
Administrator via EV
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 10:05 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: EVDL Administrator
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Fisker's 3D electrode li-ion promises 500Mi
EV& 1min recharge

On 20 Nov 2017 at 9:38, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

> In my book charging a 40kWh battery in 1/60th hour (one minute) to 80%

> means 40 x 0.8 x 60 = 1920 kW, almost 2 Megawatt.

Thanks, absolutely correct.  I got unconscionably careless with my
powers of 10.  That shouldn't have passed the sniff test here.  Sorry.

For sure, 2 megawatts is much more manageable than 2 gigawatts, though
10 or
20 megawatts to run an EV "filling station" is still a pretty
substantial amount of power.  

Using a battery as a load leveler would certainly help, but also would
add operating expense.  It also makes me think about the PV folks who
tout the benefits of grid intertie for leveling THEIR loads.  :-)

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL
Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the
webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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