EVLN: GM Spark, the "we've got one too" electric "compliance car"

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EVLN: GM Spark, the "we've got one too" electric "compliance car"

brucedp

'Envia definitely has a battery breakthrough ... beyond bench scale.'
China's New Target: Batteries, A123/Wanxiang

[unformatted]
http://www.mnn.com/green-tech/transportation/blogs/gms-electric-spark-its-all-about-the-batteries
[images&video] GM's electric Spark: It's all about the batteries
by Jim Motavalli  Aug 15 2012

General Motors is preparing to unveil its first all-electric car since the
EV1. And speculation is growing about the breakthrough battery company that
GM has invested in. Are 300-mile, $20,000 EVs in our near future?

[image  GM photo
http://www.mnn.com/sites/default/files/chevrolet%20spark%20with%20model.jpg
SPARKS: GM is plugging in its first-ever mini-car
]

Around this time next year, General Motors will unveil its first
all-electric car since the EV-1. It’s a battery version of the Spark
mini-car that’s hitting the showrooms now. In both gas and electric
versions, the Spark is something of a pioneer. GM has never sold tiny
A-Class vehicles in the American market, and it’s never before gone
mainstream with an electric—the EV1 never made it out of California and
Arizona.

To say that many questions remain about the Spark EV is putting it mildly.
To begin with, GM rushed out its announcement of the car late on a Friday
afternoon, as if it wanted to minimize press coverage. GM damped down
expectations as much as it could: “It will be sold in limited quantities in
select U.S. and global markets starting in 2013, including California,” the
company said. You can almost feel the energy draining out of that.

The speculation was that GM is planning a "compliance car" designed to meet
California's zero-emission requirements, and not a serious contender like
the Volt. But what if the Spark, instead of being a "we've got one too"
electric, was instead a rule breaker and barrier smasher?

The Spark, as announced last October, was to have “an advanced nanophosphate
lithium-ion battery pack” from A123 Systems. There hasn’t been any change in
that, but A123 has had some well-publicized problems. The company is being
bailed out in a $450 million deal that will see Chinese auto giant Wanxiang
owning part of the battery producer. That deal has been decried by some in
Congress (including Representative Cliff Stearns of Florida) because A123
received $249 million in Department of Energy stimulus funding.

In a way, that government funding was more trouble than it was worth for
A123, because it was used to build a spanking-new factory in Livonia,
Michigan that added huge capacity before the automakers were ready to absorb
it. A123 supplies Fisker, and that company’s delays in getting to market
(and a subsequent battery recall) has proved crippling to A123. According to
the New York Times, “Executives of A123…say the company has gotten off to a
slower start than anticipated because the market for electric cars has
failed to grow. The company reported a loss of $125 million in the first
quarter of this year, as revenues dropped 40 percent from the year earlier.”

A123 points to a recent breakthrough with batteries that can work in a wide
range of temperatures without the need for external cooling or heating. But
is GM getting antsy?

Last week GM CEO Dan Akerson said a few things about EV batteries that got
everybody’s attention. Not that many people noticed when GM Ventures, the
company’s investment arm, put $7 million into a battery company called Envia
Systems. That company’s CEO, Atul Kapadia (right), had been claiming major
breakthroughs in range, cost and energy density. But you expect CEOs to say
things like that.

Now GM’s boss was confirming it. According to Akerson, “I think we’ve got
better than a 50-50 chance to develop a car that will go to 200 miles on a
charge [with Envia batteries]. That would be a game changer….These little
companies come out of nowhere, and they surprise you.”

Go to Envia’s website and the claims are bigger than that: The
California-based company is talking blithely about $20,000 battery electric
cars that can travel 300 (not 200) miles on a charge. If true, that’s more
than a game changer, it’s almost game over for gas cars.

And it’s not only GM that’s talking about Envia. Eric Toone, the acting head
of Department of Energy tech funder ARPA-E, told me earlier this month,
“Envia definitely has had a battery breakthrough. And they’re far along. The
batteries have to be tested and deployed, and there is still a great amount
of work to do, but they’ve moved beyond the bench scale.”

So it’s possible to speculate--without any actual evidence--that GM might
change horses in mid-stream and install the Envia batteries it is
without-a-shadow-of-a-doubt testing into the Spark. I posed just that
question to Jim Federico, whose global small car realm covers all versions
of the Spark.

I asked Federico about Envia, and there was a pregnant silence. “All I can
tell you,” Federico said eventually, “is that we have good relationships
with all our suppliers, and are continuing to work with them. A123, Envia,
LG, we’re working with all of them.”

Indeed, Kapadia told me this week that his company is “working with every
single OEM of importance around the world. And the only thing that matters
is what our customers say.” He added that Envia had reached the important
target of batteries (left) with 400 watt-hours per kilogram, “which wasn’t
easy to achieve.” That milestone was confirmed in testing at the
Indiana-based Naval Warfare Surface Center, which evaluates military
systems.

But Kapadia also said that Envia has “nothing to announce” in the wake of
Akerson’s statement, and the company later got back to me with a statement.

In the prepared remarks, Kapadia said, “We are aware of the comments that
were reported regarding Envia and a relationship with GM beyond GM’s
investment in Envia. It should not come as a surprise that Envia’s
world-record 400 watt-hours per kilogram technology is being sought after by
automotive companies around the world. However, Envia has not yet made final
decisions regarding business arrangements and there is nothing to announce
at this time. Even though Envia is a participant in the fast-growing battery
market, as is evident from contemporary examples, it is difficult to build a
profitable battery company without leap-forward technology and a robust
business model. Envia is still an exciting young company with laser-like
focus on its technology and engineering.”

Obviously, Envia doesn’t want anybody leaping to conclusions about its
partners. It wants to keep its options open. The Spark is still slated to
have A123 batteries, and don't count that company out. But a deepening
relationship between GM and Envia Systems may be in the offing. Here's a
closer look at Envia's technology, courtesy of NBC:

[video  
http://youtube.com/watchv=Z-n8bSZ17-E
Envia Systems' EV battery announcement on NBC-11 (KNTV) with Scott Budman,
March 1, 2012
Mar 13, 2012 by kimberlyinsf
FEBRUARY 27, 2012: World's First 400 Wh/kg Lithium-ion Battery Poised to
Revolutionize Cost, Range and Safety in EVs

Next week at the ARPA-E summit in Washington, Envia Systems will announce
that it has achieved world record energy density for lithium-ion batteries.
Independent test verifications from the Electrochemical Power Systems
Department at the Naval Surface Warfare Center verify the company's
next-generation battery has achieved the highest recorded energy density of
400 Watt-hours/kilogram (Wh/kg) for a lithium-ion cell. This unprecedented
energy density, combined with the use of low cost materials and
manufacturing processes, is expected to slash the price of a 300-mile range
electric vehicle by cutting the cost of the battery pack by more than 50
percent.
]  [© 2012 MNN Holdings  All Rights Reserved]


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443991704577576881949308486.html
China's New Target: Batteries
By MIKE RAMSEY

A company that two years ago was one of the most promising U.S. innovators
in the clean-fuel auto industry was rescued from collapse Wednesday. Its
buyer: A Chinese auto-parts company.

Wanxiang Group Corp., one of China's biggest parts makers, offered a $450
million lifeline to A123 Systems Inc., ... a maker of advanced batteries for
electric vehicles that received U.S.-government backing. The deal would put
the firm's lithium-ion technology and its U.S.-funded manufacturing plant
into the hands of a company that has slowly acquired a passel of auto assets
across the Midwest.

Wanxiang's investment, part of a move into clean energy technologies, comes
as Chinese firms are shaking up the global oil-and-gas industry with bold
deals. Last month, state-owned Cnooc Ltd. ... offered $15.1 billion for a
Canadian energy company, on the same day China Petrochemical Corp. offered
to buy a stake in another Canadian oil company's U.K. project. Globally,
Chinese firms have disclosed more than 1,400 acquisitions since January of
2008, says researcher Dealogic.

[image   by Jeffrey Sauger/Bloomberg News
http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/OB-UC447_0808a1_G_20120809032231.jpg
A123 Systems, which got a $450 lifeline from China's Wanxiang Group, makes
lithium-ion car batteries at this plant in Michigan.
]

Waltham, Mass.-based A123's recent losses and a high-profile battery recall
were a sharp reversal for a start-up that attracted big-name investors and a
$2.6 billion market value just a few years ago. Its troubles show how hard
it has become for the Obama administration to cultivate a U.S. supply base
and market for electric-powered cars.

Sales of electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids in the U.S. remain a fraction
of gasoline-powered vehicles because of their high cost, the lengthy
recharging times required and limited availability of public charging
stations. Three years ago, the administration set a goal of one million
plug-ins on the road by 2015, a number that now seems wildly optimistic.

So far this year, Nissan Motor Co. ... has sold about 3,500 all-electric
cars in the U.S. and General Motors Co. ... has sold about 10,700 of its
battery-powered Volt—out of a total of eight million vehicles sold. Auto
makers and governments have pushed the technology as a way to cut reliance
on foreign oil, reduce greenhouse gases and encourage a new industry.

Hoping to kick-start an electric-vehicle battery industry, the U.S. provided
$1.26 billion since 2009 to battery makers including Johnson Controls Inc.,
... LG Chem Ltd., and Dow Kokam, a joint venture of Dow Chemical Co. ... and
South Korea's Kokam Co., to set up nine factories in four U.S. states. Most
are producing far fewer batteries than originally expected. Ener1 Inc.,
another government-grant recipient, sought Chapter 11 bankruptcy
restructuring and has since emerged.

A123 was awarded $249 million in Department of Energy grants and has used
about half so far to pay for some of the costs of building a factory in
Livonia, Mich. It was among the earliest entrants in the field, opening its
Michigan battery plant in 2010, and outlining plans for a second U.S.
facility.

It recently announced an advance in battery chemistry that would make its
cells work in extreme hot or cold without the costly heating and cooling
gear that now adds to the price of electric vehicles.

The company got its start with battery technology licensed from the
Massachusetts Institute of Technology and was a green-technology favorite.
Its shares nearly doubled to above $25 within a week of its September 2009
initial public offering.

A123 recently warned it could run out of money due to slower-than-expected
sales of electric vehicles and manufacturing problems, triggering a hunt for
cash and new investors. Shares on Wednesday were trading at 50 cents apiece.

General Electric Co., ... which was an early investor and still owns about a
5% stake in A123, declined to comment.

Wanxiang's Elgin, Ill., U.S. operations, managed by a son-in-law of the
company's founder, has been a buyer of distressed auto-parts makers for
nearly a decade. It formed a joint venture that bought and turned around
Driveline Systems LLC, a Loves Park, Ill., axle maker, and has acquired
parts operations from Dana Corp. and Ford Motor Co. ...

Pin Ni, the president of Wanxiang America, said he is "optimistic" about the
investment's potential. He declined to comment further on how Hangzhou-based
Wanxiang would operate A123. Mr. Ni said Wanxiang wants to become a major
player in green energy products in the U.S. and China. The firm employs
3,000 people in the U.S., and has a joint-venture plant in China with Ener1.

"They do see this as helping them achieve their ambitions in the Chinese
market," David Vieau, A123's chief executive, said in an interview. Mr.
Vieau said he would seek approval from the Committee on Foreign Investment
in the U.S., or CFIUS, which reviews transactions by foreign buyers that
could have national security implications for the U.S.

Cliff Stearns (R., Fla.), who chairs the House Energy and Commerce
Committee's panel on oversight and investigations, said on Wednesday he
worried about the deal's transfer of intellectual property.

"We need to make sure the federal government isn't an unwitting accomplice
to the theft of our own national secrets by providing [foreign-controlled
companies] with multimillion-dollar government grants and loans," he said in
a statement.

A White House spokeswoman declined to comment on the Chinese firm's
investment, but noted that "the company can only use [U.S.] funding to
support U.S. manufacturing facilities."

"Any changes to the scope of the grant would have to be approved" by the
Department of Energy, the spokeswoman said, "and DOE would not approve any
changes that allowed the grant money to be used for anything other than
investment in the manufacturing facilities here in the U.S. or U.S. jobs."

A spokeswoman for the Republican National Committee said of the deal: "It is
unfortunate Obama borrowed from the Chinese to give taxpayer money to prop
up green energy companies that the Chinese are now buying."

The deal should close in the "near term," beginning with receipt of a $25
million bridge loan, A123's Mr. Vieau said.

If the U.S. and Chinese governments approve the deal, A123 would get another
$50 million. With additional commitments to purchase convertible debt and
exercise warrants, the deal could lead to a $450 million investment for an
80% ownership stake.

China's policy makers have encouraged investment in electric vehicles and
infrastructure over concern about the nation's increasing dependence on
foreign-oil. They also face rising pressure at home to address China's
extensive pollution.

Among other measures, China is expected to phase in tougher new mileage
requirement in coming years. The government hasn't yet released details.

China has offered several incentives to boost the development of electric
and gasoline-electric hybrid cars, including subsidies. It has said it would
introduce a series of incentives to support their development, including
asking cities to provide owners of the vehicles preference on parking fees,
battery-charging fees and road tolls. In new regulations late last year it
also shifted purchase requirements for some government employees to
encourage them to buy such vehicles ...

Corrections & Amplifications
China Petrochemical agreed to buy a stake in a U.K. oil project owned by a
Canadian energy company. An earlier version of this article incorrectly
described its investment as in a U.K. company.

A version of this article appeared August 9, 2012, on page A1 in the U.S.
edition of The Wall Street Journal ...
[© 2012 Dow Jones & Company  All Rights Reserved]




http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date
All EVLN posts, today's stealth-posted topics:

EVLN: Carbon batts ultra-recharge for EVs, laptops, tablets, phones
EVLN: Two UK doctors using their iOn EV for their medical practices
EVLN: iMiev will work well in the christchurch.org.nz environment
EVLN: Father of the pih & UCD Prof Plugin Andy Frank's concepts @EDI
+
EVLN: 2013 Fiat 500 To Be Called 500E: Report

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-2014-Tesla-X-vs-2012-RAV4-EV-gen2-Showdown-tp4657085.html


{brucedp.150m.com}



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Re: EVLN: GM Spark, the "we've got one too" electric "compliance car"

EVDL Administrator
On 16 Aug 2012 at 8:58, brucedp wrote:

> The California-based company is talking blithely about $20,000 battery
> electric cars that can travel 300 (not 200) miles on a charge. If true,
> thatTMs more than a game changer, itTMs almost game over for gas cars.

Assuming this is something more than the ad club talking (and I'm
skeptical), the limiting factor then becomes the rate at which the charger
can deliver energy to the battery.  

I'm not a lithium expert, so correct me if I'm wrong here, but if it's like
other chemistries, once you reach 80% charged the rest of the charge takes
about as long.  To look at it from the other end, you have only half your
charging time to deliver 80% of the charge.

A 250 Wh/mi car will use 75 kWh in 300 mi.  To charge that in 8h you would
need to charge 60 kWh in 4h.  This requires 15kW.  That's roughly one-third
of the total power capacity of a 200a 240v residential service.  

And you have other household stuff to power.  An electric range can easily
use upwards of 8-10kW.  A heat pump is maybe 5kW, aircon 3-4kW, a water
heater 4.5kW, a clothes dryer 5kW, lighting easily 3kW or more in a large
house, especially if you like incandescents.  Now with the EV charging we're
nearly maxed out, and we haven't even considered miscellaneous loads.  
Yikes.

So ... I sure hope all the charging on these big batteries would be done at
night.  Not nearly so much fun if you have to charge at public charging
stations.  Whoops, didn't somebody say that some of those have 4-hour
limits?

Some huge McMansions are being built with 400a services these days but I
hear it's expensive.  It would really limit your market for your long-range
EVs if they could only be sold to folks with uncommonly high-powered
electric services.

Am I missing anything here?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: EVLN: GM Spark, the "we've got one too" electric "compliance car"

Cor van de Water
Look at it the other way:
Even though the charge to max takes 8h, you can
charge 80% capacity in only 4h so you are good to
go almost the full range after 4h.

BTW, how often do you have heat on AND airco?
I hardly ever see more than 2 burners of a stove in use
at the same time, a water heater cycles and a clothes
dryer has a very low duty cycle: one day it might run a
few hours, but then it is sitting unused for dozens of hours.
I won't comment on the incandescents...

Suddenly we are back to a 15-18kW peak for the house and
even that is hardly ever reached, otherwise a single pole pig
could not service more than 1 or 2 houses and where I am
staying, the single family houses are pretty big and still
at least 8 houses share a single pole pig.

On a 200A service there is easily room for 80A to charge,
so that gives you 80A x 240V or almost 20kVA.
There does not seem to be a problem with the power you
calculated. Only that it is likely that the car uses
less than 250Wh/mi if you want to reach a 300 mi range.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of EVDL Administrator
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2012 9:45 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Spark,the "we've got one too" electric
"compliance car"

On 16 Aug 2012 at 8:58, brucedp wrote:

> The California-based company is talking blithely about $20,000 battery

> electric cars that can travel 300 (not 200) miles on a charge. If
> true, thatTMs more than a game changer, itTMs almost game over for gas
cars.

Assuming this is something more than the ad club talking (and I'm
skeptical), the limiting factor then becomes the rate at which the
charger can deliver energy to the battery.  

I'm not a lithium expert, so correct me if I'm wrong here, but if it's
like other chemistries, once you reach 80% charged the rest of the
charge takes about as long.  To look at it from the other end, you have
only half your charging time to deliver 80% of the charge.

A 250 Wh/mi car will use 75 kWh in 300 mi.  To charge that in 8h you
would need to charge 60 kWh in 4h.  This requires 15kW.  That's roughly
one-third of the total power capacity of a 200a 240v residential
service.  

And you have other household stuff to power.  An electric range can
easily use upwards of 8-10kW.  A heat pump is maybe 5kW, aircon 3-4kW, a
water heater 4.5kW, a clothes dryer 5kW, lighting easily 3kW or more in
a large house, especially if you like incandescents.  Now with the EV
charging we're nearly maxed out, and we haven't even considered
miscellaneous loads.  
Yikes.

So ... I sure hope all the charging on these big batteries would be done
at night.  Not nearly so much fun if you have to charge at public
charging stations.  Whoops, didn't somebody say that some of those have
4-hour limits?

Some huge McMansions are being built with 400a services these days but I
hear it's expensive.  It would really limit your market for your
long-range EVs if they could only be sold to folks with uncommonly
high-powered electric services.

Am I missing anything here?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the
webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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Re: EVLN: GM Spark, the "we've got one too" electric "compliance car"

Roger Stockton
Cor van de Water wrote:

> Suddenly we are back to a 15-18kW peak for the house and
> even that is hardly ever reached, otherwise a single pole pig
> could not service more than 1 or 2 houses and where I am
> staying, the single family houses are pretty big and still
> at least 8 houses share a single pole pig.

And here you have hit on exactly the problem that has the utilities worried.

The distribution transformers are apparently the weak link.  Sure, there is plenty of excess capacity at night to charge with, however, the utility has sized the transformers based on the present loading and duty cycle.  They rely on the lighter loading at night to allow the transformers to cool down.

Even the present 3-6kW chargers have the utilities concerned; it seems highly unlikely that 10-15kW chargers will be possible in residences in any number until the distribution network is beefed up, regardless of whether charging takes place during the day or at night.

FWIW, I suspect that 3-6kW charge capability will be all that is needed at home regardless of the vehicle range capability.  Statistics tell us that most people don't drive 200-300mi per day; most are under 50mi.  So, in the event that someone does use most of their range, either they will replenish the battery incrementally over multiple 8hr charge sessions (even at 3kW, 8hr can restore 100mi range at 240Wh/mi), or they will use a public/pay ChaDeMo (or other) fast charger to replenish most of the charge quickly and finish off at home.

Cheers,

Roger.


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Re: EVLN: GM Spark, the "we've got one too" electric "compliance car"

Peri Hartman
Furthermore, at some point we'll need to address the people who don't have
dedicated parking.  I suspect that many of these people will "fill up" at
commercial stations.  The residential infrastructure may turn out to be a
relatively small problem.

Peri

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Roger Stockton
Sent: 17 August, 2012 9:31 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Spark, the "we've got one too" electric
"compliance car"

Cor van de Water wrote:

> Suddenly we are back to a 15-18kW peak for the house and
> even that is hardly ever reached, otherwise a single pole pig
> could not service more than 1 or 2 houses and where I am
> staying, the single family houses are pretty big and still
> at least 8 houses share a single pole pig.

And here you have hit on exactly the problem that has the utilities worried.

The distribution transformers are apparently the weak link.  Sure, there is
plenty of excess capacity at night to charge with, however, the utility has
sized the transformers based on the present loading and duty cycle.  They
rely on the lighter loading at night to allow the transformers to cool down.

Even the present 3-6kW chargers have the utilities concerned; it seems
highly unlikely that 10-15kW chargers will be possible in residences in any
number until the distribution network is beefed up, regardless of whether
charging takes place during the day or at night.

FWIW, I suspect that 3-6kW charge capability will be all that is needed at
home regardless of the vehicle range capability.  Statistics tell us that
most people don't drive 200-300mi per day; most are under 50mi.  So, in the
event that someone does use most of their range, either they will replenish
the battery incrementally over multiple 8hr charge sessions (even at 3kW,
8hr can restore 100mi range at 240Wh/mi), or they will use a public/pay
ChaDeMo (or other) fast charger to replenish most of the charge quickly and
finish off at home.

Cheers,

Roger.


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Re: EVLN: GM Spark, the "we've got one too" electric "compliance car"

Roger Stockton
Peri Hartman wrote:

> Furthermore, at some point we'll need to address the people who don't have
> dedicated parking.  I suspect that many of these people will "fill up" at
> commercial stations.  The residential infrastructure may turn out to be a
> relatively small problem.

Yes, I agree completely.

I think for urban dwellers in high-density housing it makes far more sense to use public charging stations while parked at their destinations or to 'fill up' at commercial (fast) charge stations.  The same applies to people with non-dedicated/on-street parking.

Retrofitting charge capability into the parking area of an existing high-rise structure is significantly more costly than adding an outlet in the garage of a detached dwelling.

Cheers,

Roger.


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Re: EVLN: GM Spark, the "we've got one too" electric "compliance car"

Martin WINLOW
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator

On 17 Aug 2012, at 05:45, EVDL Administrator wrote:

> On 16 Aug 2012 at 8:58, brucedp wrote:
>
>> The California-based company is talking blithely about $20,000 battery
>> electric cars that can travel 300 (not 200) miles on a charge. If true,
>> thatTMs more than a game changer, itTMs almost game over for gas cars.
>
> Assuming this is something more than the ad club talking (and I'm
> skeptical), the limiting factor then becomes the rate at which the charger
> can deliver energy to the battery.  
>
> Am I missing anything here?
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>

Yes (sorry!) I think you are missing something - but you are in good company as lots of EV-decriers say the same thing about even much smaller packs.  The simple fact is that people will plug in each night (or day whilst at work if they can't charge at home) and only be putting the daily average of 35 (or whatever it is)-worth of electricity into their cars - not anywhere near 300 miles worth.  And as others have said, those that do need a full charge will be using purpose-built, dedicated chargers at specific locations.  Besides, how many people are going to fork out even $10k for a market-mature, high-power DC charger - let alone the $50k they cost at the moment - for their home (unless it's called a 'PV array')?

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk



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Re: EVLN: GM Spark, the "we've got one too" electric "compliance car"

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by Roger Stockton
On 8/17/2012 11:31 AM, Roger Stockton wrote:
> you have hit on exactly the problem that has the utilities worried.
> The distribution transformers are apparently the weak link.

In a way, it's funny. Most businesses would look upon a way to increase
sales as a big plus; not a problem.

If your home needs more power, they have the opportunity to charge you
for it. It is the homeowner's *choice*, so the public utilities
commissions aren't likely to stand in the way.

A high-power charger also has the interesting characteristic that it
doesn't increase the total power you're using; it just draws more power
for a shorter time. The utility would have to work out a fee schedule
where the homeowner pays an "upgrade" fee so they can replace their
transformer.
--
Results! Why man, I have gotten a lot of results. I know several
thousand things that won't work. -- Thomas A. Edison
--
Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs [hidden email]

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Re: EVLN: GM Spark, the "we've got one too" electric "compliance car"

Sean Korb
Small businesses invariably look at change as a way to increase sales.
 They undergo change every day so it's not a large impact.

But larger businesses really don't like change.. or for the most part,
they don't like surprise and change can be a big part of that.  They
would prefer to miss out on increased revenue if it meant that their
system was more stable.  And so they do.

Maybe large businesses could be turned into small businesses?

I think a fee schedule could really help, but these upgrades can have
a cascading effect.  If many residents, heaven forbid, bought more EVs
in a single neighborhood, you might need to upgrade the nearby
substation.  For a long time utilities will resist this, and then
after the upgrades happen, they'll wonder why everyone isn't using
EVs.  Sort of like Digital Cable.

sean

On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 3:21 PM, Lee Hart <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 8/17/2012 11:31 AM, Roger Stockton wrote:
>> you have hit on exactly the problem that has the utilities worried.
>> The distribution transformers are apparently the weak link.
>
> In a way, it's funny. Most businesses would look upon a way to increase
> sales as a big plus; not a problem.
>
> If your home needs more power, they have the opportunity to charge you
> for it. It is the homeowner's *choice*, so the public utilities
> commissions aren't likely to stand in the way.
>
> A high-power charger also has the interesting characteristic that it
> doesn't increase the total power you're using; it just draws more power
> for a shorter time. The utility would have to work out a fee schedule
> where the homeowner pays an "upgrade" fee so they can replace their
> transformer.
> --
> Results! Why man, I have gotten a lot of results. I know several
> thousand things that won't work. -- Thomas A. Edison
> --
> Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs [hidden email]
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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--
Sean Korb [hidden email] http://www.spkorb.org
'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso

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Re: EVLN: GM Spark, the "we've got one too" electric "compliance car"

Bill Dube
In reply to this post by Martin WINLOW
A typical 40 mile round-trip commute requires the charger draw just 7
amps at 120 volts overnight. (Less than 1 kW).

This is not an issue for the distribution system whatsoever.

Bill D.


At 12:38 PM 8/17/2012, you wrote:

>On 17 Aug 2012, at 05:45, EVDL Administrator wrote:
>
> > On 16 Aug 2012 at 8:58, brucedp wrote:
> >
> >> The California-based company is talking blithely about $20,000 battery
> >> electric cars that can travel 300 (not 200) miles on a charge. If true,
> >> thatTMs more than a game changer, itTMs almost game over for gas cars.
> >
> > Assuming this is something more than the ad club talking (and I'm
> > skeptical), the limiting factor then becomes the rate at which the charger
> > can deliver energy to the battery.
> >
> > Am I missing anything here?
> >
> > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > EVDL Administrator
> >
>
>Yes (sorry!) I think you are missing something - but you are in good
>company as lots of EV-decriers say the same thing about even much
>smaller packs.  The simple fact is that people will plug in each
>night (or day whilst at work if they can't charge at home) and only
>be putting the daily average of 35 (or whatever it is)-worth of
>electricity into their cars - not anywhere near 300 miles
>worth.  And as others have said, those that do need a full charge
>will be using purpose-built, dedicated chargers at specific
>locations.  Besides, how many people are going to fork out even $10k
>for a market-mature, high-power DC charger - let alone the $50k they
>cost at the moment - for their home (unless it's called a 'PV array')?
>
>Regards, Martin Winlow
>Herts, UK
>http://www.evalbum.com/2092
>www.winlow.co.uk
>
>
>
>-------------- next part --------------
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>
>_______________________________________________
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Re: EVLN: GM Spark, the "we've got one too" electric "compliance car"

Cor van de Water
In reply to this post by Sean Korb
Yeah,
I think it should also be regulated how many people
are allowed to install a high powered airco in a
neighborhood, or an electric water heater or dryer or ...

Seriously, this problem has been solved so many times
already, this is simply another installment of the
ever-growing *electric* energy use. Why are some
people trying to make a problem of it?

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Sean Korb
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 12:36 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Spark, the "we've got one too" electric
"compliance car"

Small businesses invariably look at change as a way to increase sales.
 They undergo change every day so it's not a large impact.

But larger businesses really don't like change.. or for the most part,
they don't like surprise and change can be a big part of that.  They
would prefer to miss out on increased revenue if it meant that their
system was more stable.  And so they do.

Maybe large businesses could be turned into small businesses?

I think a fee schedule could really help, but these upgrades can have a
cascading effect.  If many residents, heaven forbid, bought more EVs in
a single neighborhood, you might need to upgrade the nearby substation.
For a long time utilities will resist this, and then after the upgrades
happen, they'll wonder why everyone isn't using EVs.  Sort of like
Digital Cable.

sean

On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 3:21 PM, Lee Hart <[hidden email]>
wrote:
> On 8/17/2012 11:31 AM, Roger Stockton wrote:
>> you have hit on exactly the problem that has the utilities worried.
>> The distribution transformers are apparently the weak link.
>
> In a way, it's funny. Most businesses would look upon a way to
> increase sales as a big plus; not a problem.
>
> If your home needs more power, they have the opportunity to charge you

> for it. It is the homeowner's *choice*, so the public utilities
> commissions aren't likely to stand in the way.
>
> A high-power charger also has the interesting characteristic that it
> doesn't increase the total power you're using; it just draws more
> power for a shorter time. The utility would have to work out a fee
> schedule where the homeowner pays an "upgrade" fee so they can replace

> their transformer.
> --
> Results! Why man, I have gotten a lot of results. I know several
> thousand things that won't work. -- Thomas A. Edison
> --
> Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs [hidden email]
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



--
Sean Korb [hidden email] http://www.spkorb.org
'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera
#1382 "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso

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Re: EVLN: GM Spark, the "we've got one too" electric "compliance car"

Roger Stockton
Cor van de Water wrote:

> Seriously, this problem has been solved so many times
> already, this is simply another installment of the
> ever-growing *electric* energy use. Why are some
> people trying to make a problem of it?

Nobody is trying to make a problem out of it; all that has been stated is factual.

The present distribution transformers are largely incapable of supporting the additional load associated with relatively widespread adoption of residential EV charging at multi-kW power levels.  The utilities are concerned about being able to stay ahead of the adoption curve and get the infrastructure updated faster than residential charging takes off.

Yes, the same issue occurred when residential air-conditioning became widely adopted.  It is not insurmountable, but it is a challenge facing the utilities.  It is easy to say that the utilities should simply take the opportunity to pass the cost on to the consumer, but while that will surely happen in the end, utilities are far more regulated than most other businesses and by and large cannot simply jack up rates at will.

Cheers,

Roger.


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Re: EVLN: GM Spark, the "we've got one too" electric "compliance car"

Cor van de Water
And for those who propose to put the burden on EVs:
how high is the charge on an Airco (or heater or dryer)
to pay for the grid upgrade? (retorical question,
answer not needed)

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Roger Stockton
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 9:52 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Spark, the "we've got one too" electric
"compliance car"

Cor van de Water wrote:

> Seriously, this problem has been solved so many times already, this is

> simply another installment of the ever-growing *electric* energy use.
> Why are some people trying to make a problem of it?

Nobody is trying to make a problem out of it; all that has been stated
is factual.

The present distribution transformers are largely incapable of
supporting the additional load associated with relatively widespread
adoption of residential EV charging at multi-kW power levels.  The
utilities are concerned about being able to stay ahead of the adoption
curve and get the infrastructure updated faster than residential
charging takes off.

Yes, the same issue occurred when residential air-conditioning became
widely adopted.  It is not insurmountable, but it is a challenge facing
the utilities.  It is easy to say that the utilities should simply take
the opportunity to pass the cost on to the consumer, but while that will
surely happen in the end, utilities are far more regulated than most
other businesses and by and large cannot simply jack up rates at will.

Cheers,

Roger.


_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
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|
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getting enough power at home [was: GM Spark, the "we've got one too" electric "compliance car"]

harry henderson
first i would jump on the first chance you get to upgrade your house panel since most neighborhoods have limited capacity and might be first come first serve: and you will need that extra power if you want to fast charge, get AC, tankless electric water heater [i love mine], solar panels, etc...  but plan to spend 1-2k [US $] on the upgrade

but even with our current power grid, as pointed out below, can handle AC upgrades with metering and cutback procedures.  getting your AC cutback in the middle of day is crappy, but getting your charging cutback generally is not a big deal. if we stop switching from swamp coolers to AC and get all energy efficient devices we will have plenty of power

harry

Albuquerque, NM
current bike:  http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179
current non-bike: http://evalbum.com/1000


--- On Sat, 8/18/12, Cor van de Water <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Cor van de Water <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Spark, the "we've got one too" electric "compliance car"
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Date: Saturday, August 18, 2012, 11:15 PM
> And for those who propose to put the
> burden on EVs:
> how high is the charge on an Airco (or heater or dryer)
> to pay for the grid upgrade? (retorical question,
> answer not needed)
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [hidden email] 
>   Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP:
> +31877841130
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91
> (040)23117400 x203
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]]
> On
> Behalf Of Roger Stockton
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 9:52 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Spark, the "we've got one too"
> electric
> "compliance car"
>
> Cor van de Water wrote:
>
> > Seriously, this problem has been solved so many times
> already, this is
>
> > simply another installment of the ever-growing
> *electric* energy use.
> > Why are some people trying to make a problem of it?
>
> Nobody is trying to make a problem out of it; all that has
> been stated
> is factual.
>
> The present distribution transformers are largely incapable
> of
> supporting the additional load associated with relatively
> widespread
> adoption of residential EV charging at multi-kW power
> levels.  The
> utilities are concerned about being able to stay ahead of
> the adoption
> curve and get the infrastructure updated faster than
> residential
> charging takes off.
>
> Yes, the same issue occurred when residential
> air-conditioning became
> widely adopted.  It is not insurmountable, but it is a
> challenge facing
> the utilities.  It is easy to say that the utilities
> should simply take
> the opportunity to pass the cost on to the consumer, but
> while that will
> surely happen in the end, utilities are far more regulated
> than most
> other businesses and by and large cannot simply jack up
> rates at will.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email]
> only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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>
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Re: getting enough power at home [was: GM Spark, the "we've got one too" electric "compliance car"]

Dennis Miles
I have no sympathy for the electric utility. periodic upgrading is a normal
expense, You don't hear any complaints when a developer builds 50 new homes
in a community, upgrading the electric supply is normal and although it is
true that they may be regulated their stockholders are not guaranteed a
dividend but some stockholders are the management and CEO.

On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 1:31 PM, harry henderson <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> first i would jump on the first chance you get to upgrade your house panel
> since most neighborhoods have limited capacity and might be first come
> first serve: and you will need that extra power if you want to fast charge,
> get AC, tankless electric water heater [i love mine], solar panels, etc...
>  but plan to spend 1-2k [US $] on the upgrade
>
> but even with our current power grid, as pointed out below, can handle AC
> upgrades with metering and cutback procedures.  getting your AC cutback in
> the middle of day is crappy, but getting your charging cutback generally is
> not a big deal. if we stop switching from swamp coolers to AC and get all
> energy efficient devices we will have plenty of power
>
> harry
>
> Albuquerque, NM
> current bike:  http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179
> current non-bike: http://evalbum.com/1000
>
>
> --- On Sat, 8/18/12, Cor van de Water <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > From: Cor van de Water <[hidden email]>
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Spark, the "we've got one too" electric
> "compliance car"
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> > Date: Saturday, August 18, 2012, 11:15 PM
> > And for those who propose to put the
> > burden on EVs:
> > how high is the charge on an Airco (or heater or dryer)
> > to pay for the grid upgrade? (retorical question,
> > answer not needed)
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Cor van de Water
> > Chief Scientist
> > Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> > Email: [hidden email]
> >   Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> > Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP:
> > +31877841130
> > Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91
> > (040)23117400 x203
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [hidden email]
> > [mailto:[hidden email]]
> > On
> > Behalf Of Roger Stockton
> > Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 9:52 PM
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Spark, the "we've got one too"
> > electric
> > "compliance car"
> >
> > Cor van de Water wrote:
> >
> > > Seriously, this problem has been solved so many times
> > already, this is
> >
> > > simply another installment of the ever-growing
> > *electric* energy use.
> > > Why are some people trying to make a problem of it?
> >
> > Nobody is trying to make a problem out of it; all that has
> > been stated
> > is factual.
> >
> > The present distribution transformers are largely incapable
> > of
> > supporting the additional load associated with relatively
> > widespread
> > adoption of residential EV charging at multi-kW power
> > levels.  The
> > utilities are concerned about being able to stay ahead of
> > the adoption
> > curve and get the infrastructure updated faster than
> > residential
> > charging takes off.
> >
> > Yes, the same issue occurred when residential
> > air-conditioning became
> > widely adopted.  It is not insurmountable, but it is a
> > challenge facing
> > the utilities.  It is easy to say that the utilities
> > should simply take
> > the opportunity to pass the cost on to the consumer, but
> > while that will
> > surely happen in the end, utilities are far more regulated
> > than most
> > other businesses and by and large cannot simply jack up
> > rates at will.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Roger.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> > | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> > |
> > | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email]
> > only.
> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
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> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> > | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> > |
> > | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email]
> > only.
> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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>



--
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles*   (863)944-9913 (call noon to midnight Eastern time)
*[hidden email]*
*+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++*
*Offering a 12 day class Sept. 10 to 22, 2012 *
*in Central Florida. more info on Web;
WWW.ElectricVehicleTechnicalinstitute.COM<http://www.electricvehicletechnicalinstitute.com/>
*
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Re: getting enough power at home [was: GM Spark, the "we've got one too" electric "compliance car"]

Roger Stockton
Dennis Miles wrote:

> I have no sympathy for the electric utility. periodic upgrading is a
> normal expense, You don't hear any complaints when a developer builds 50
> new homes in a community, upgrading the electric supply is normal

Completely different scenario.  What you describe is not periodic upgrading, but rather *expanding* of the distribution system.  Of course the utility doesn't complain: the developer *pays* to have the electrical infrastructure extended (and/or upgraded) to serve their new development.

Ask anyone who has built a home just beyond the reach of the existing network: yes, the utility is happy to extend the network to serve you, provided you pay for the cost of doing so.

To be clear, the issue facing the utility is both cost and time.  The utility is continuously upgrading equipment *gradually*; the challenge with widespread home charging of EVs using 3-6kW (or higher power) chargers is that this represents a significant increase in the usage of a typical household, and so rather than usage increasing gradually, giving the utility time to upgrade the system before demand exceeds the capabilities of the existing supply network, there is the potential for a step change in demand from within the present equipment's capabilities to beyond it.

It is impractical to expect the utility to be able to upgrade the entire network overnight, and it is difficult for the utility to reliably anticipate which neighborhoods will adopt EVs in quantity in order that they can ensure that these areas are served by suitable equipment prior to the increase in load.

I'm told that in some areas the utility is notified when an EV is bought from a dealer, so that they can determine if the infrastructure serving the new owner's residence is up to the task.

Again, the point here is only that there is a challenge facing the utility in trying to ensure that their limited resources and budget are used most effectively to ensure that the distribution network upgrades occur where they are needed most, and that the upgrades occur before the existing equipment becomes overloaded and causes local outages.

Cheers,

Roger.


_______________________________________________
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Re: getting enough power at home [was: GM Spark, the "we've got one too" electric "compliance car"]

Cor van de Water
Does the utility also get notified when you buy a new clothes dryer?
That is certainly at least as big a load, forget about a new
Airco, space heater, water heater, stove - you name it.

As long as EVs are not yet sold by the millions, the actual
percentage of vehicles (and thus the chance that a certain
neighborhood has a certain number of them) is astonishingly
small, of course there is the chance that several neighbors
have the "Jones" effect and one after the other buys an EV
but that is no different for installing Airco or any other
significant load.
Since the sales of EV are so low - and even if they reach
many millions per year, it would still take decades before
all the existing cars are replaced, so even though the rate
may be increasing and utilities may need to ramp up plans
to replace/build-out their equipment faster, there is still
a lot of time (many years) to do so. The increase in sales
will cover investment and they should like the fact that
EV load is much more spread out than equipment like water
heaters and Airco which cause severe "rush hour" on the grid.
If utilities are smart, they would champion the implementation
of smart chargers and advocate the use of low cost and
relatively low power chargers at home that still give them
the total amount of energy purchased, but nicely spread out
throughout the night. You just need to tell the charger or car
when your car needs to be "done" and - if you want to give
an incentive - get a higher or lower tariff depending on
when and at what rate you charge up...
Also that is an already known practice, called ToU.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Roger Stockton
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 3:42 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] getting enough power at home [was: GM Spark, the
"we've got one too" electric "compliance car"]

Dennis Miles wrote:

> I have no sympathy for the electric utility. periodic upgrading is a
> normal expense, You don't hear any complaints when a developer builds
> 50 new homes in a community, upgrading the electric supply is normal

Completely different scenario.  What you describe is not periodic
upgrading, but rather *expanding* of the distribution system.  Of course
the utility doesn't complain: the developer *pays* to have the
electrical infrastructure extended (and/or upgraded) to serve their new
development.

Ask anyone who has built a home just beyond the reach of the existing
network: yes, the utility is happy to extend the network to serve you,
provided you pay for the cost of doing so.

To be clear, the issue facing the utility is both cost and time.  The
utility is continuously upgrading equipment *gradually*; the challenge
with widespread home charging of EVs using 3-6kW (or higher power)
chargers is that this represents a significant increase in the usage of
a typical household, and so rather than usage increasing gradually,
giving the utility time to upgrade the system before demand exceeds the
capabilities of the existing supply network, there is the potential for
a step change in demand from within the present equipment's capabilities
to beyond it.

It is impractical to expect the utility to be able to upgrade the entire
network overnight, and it is difficult for the utility to reliably
anticipate which neighborhoods will adopt EVs in quantity in order that
they can ensure that these areas are served by suitable equipment prior
to the increase in load.

I'm told that in some areas the utility is notified when an EV is bought
from a dealer, so that they can determine if the infrastructure serving
the new owner's residence is up to the task.

Again, the point here is only that there is a challenge facing the
utility in trying to ensure that their limited resources and budget are
used most effectively to ensure that the distribution network upgrades
occur where they are needed most, and that the upgrades occur before the
existing equipment becomes overloaded and causes local outages.

Cheers,

Roger.


_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
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Re: getting enough power at home [was: GM Spark, the "we've got one too" electric "compliance car"]

Jim Walls-2
On 8/22/2012 18:33, Cor van de Water wrote:
> Does the utility also get notified when you buy a new clothes dryer?
> That is certainly at least as big a load, forget about a new
> Airco, space heater, water heater, stove - you name it.
>

As a general rule, the utilities find out about larger loads from 2
major sources.  First is that they actually get to read the bills and
perform stats analysis on those.  The second is when a service is
upgraded, they know about it.  That fits into the analysis as well.


--
73
-------------------------------------
Jim Walls - K6CCC
[hidden email]
Ofc:  818-548-4804
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/k6ccc/
AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395

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Re: getting enough power at home [was: GM Spark, the "we've got one too" electric "compliance car"]

Roger Stockton
In reply to this post by Cor van de Water
Cor van de Water wrote:

> Does the utility also get notified when you buy a new clothes dryer?
> That is certainly at least as big a load, forget about a new
> Airco, space heater, water heater, stove - you name it.
>
[...]

> Since the sales of EV are so low - and even if they reach
> many millions per year, it would still take decades before
> all the existing cars are replaced, so even though the rate
> may be increasing and utilities may need to ramp up plans
> to replace/build-out their equipment faster, there is still
> a lot of time (many years) to do so. The increase in sales
> will cover investment and they should like the fact that
> EV load is much more spread out than equipment like water
> heaters and Airco which cause severe "rush hour" on the grid.
> If utilities are smart, they would champion the implementation
> of smart chargers and advocate the use of low cost and
> relatively low power chargers at home that still give them
> the total amount of energy purchased, but nicely spread out
> throughout the night.

My father had an expression he used when I or my siblings would not accept something that he knew to be fact:  you would argue with a signpost, and then take the wrong road home.  ;^>

I do not understand why you think utilities are rub/staffed by idiots nor why you think the answer to the challenges facing them is so obvious (and simple) to you, yet they remain concerned by the challenges.

I am simply reporting *fact*, based on communication with the local utility.  Clearly the issues impacting the operating and maintenance of the utility grid are more complex than is obvious to laypeople such as ourselves, or what they perceive as challenges worthy of concern would not appear to us to have trivial solutions.  These are not idiots, but intelligent people just like us.

I do not presume to know the details of all of the issues facing the utilities with respect to upgrading the distribution system, and I do not presume that I know how to manage the utility better than those responsible for doing so.

The information I was sharing with the list is that despite that we often see it stated on this list that widespread adoption of EVs poses no problem for the grid due to the excess off peak capacity, the fact is that the utility has determined that the present distribution transformers cannot support the additional load, even off-peak, because they rely on the off-peak hours for the transformers to cool.  While we may not appreciate all of the details and issues facing the utility with respect to upgrading this equipment, the fact is that the utility has identified this as an area of concern for them related to popularization of EVs.

Theorising about why the utilities should not be concerned is pointless and simply underscores our lack of understanding of the issues facing them.

Cheers,

Roger.


_______________________________________________
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|
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Re: getting enough power at home [was: GM Spark, the "we've got one too" electric "compliance car"]

Ruckus
I think this whole power issue underscores why fast-charging is fools gold.
 The 37 Jag has 120v charging.  This is NOT a disadvantage.  The meter
still spins backwards, even when the car is charging (solar panels on the
house).  If we used 240v then the meter would spin forward and so would the
bill.  Even after 100 miles of driving the car is ready to go in the
morning.  Slow charging is better for the grid and better for the
batteries.  Of course, we live in MT which probably has a total of 0 J1772
charge stations.

On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 9:00 PM, Roger Stockton <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Cor van de Water wrote:
>
> > Does the utility also get notified when you buy a new clothes dryer?
> > That is certainly at least as big a load, forget about a new
> > Airco, space heater, water heater, stove - you name it.
> >
> [...]
>
> > Since the sales of EV are so low - and even if they reach
> > many millions per year, it would still take decades before
> > all the existing cars are replaced, so even though the rate
> > may be increasing and utilities may need to ramp up plans
> > to replace/build-out their equipment faster, there is still
> > a lot of time (many years) to do so. The increase in sales
> > will cover investment and they should like the fact that
> > EV load is much more spread out than equipment like water
> > heaters and Airco which cause severe "rush hour" on the grid.
> > If utilities are smart, they would champion the implementation
> > of smart chargers and advocate the use of low cost and
> > relatively low power chargers at home that still give them
> > the total amount of energy purchased, but nicely spread out
> > throughout the night.
>
> My father had an expression he used when I or my siblings would not accept
> something that he knew to be fact:  you would argue with a signpost, and
> then take the wrong road home.  ;^>
>
> I do not understand why you think utilities are rub/staffed by idiots nor
> why you think the answer to the challenges facing them is so obvious (and
> simple) to you, yet they remain concerned by the challenges.
>
> I am simply reporting *fact*, based on communication with the local
> utility.  Clearly the issues impacting the operating and maintenance of the
> utility grid are more complex than is obvious to laypeople such as
> ourselves, or what they perceive as challenges worthy of concern would not
> appear to us to have trivial solutions.  These are not idiots, but
> intelligent people just like us.
>
> I do not presume to know the details of all of the issues facing the
> utilities with respect to upgrading the distribution system, and I do not
> presume that I know how to manage the utility better than those responsible
> for doing so.
>
> The information I was sharing with the list is that despite that we often
> see it stated on this list that widespread adoption of EVs poses no problem
> for the grid due to the excess off peak capacity, the fact is that the
> utility has determined that the present distribution transformers cannot
> support the additional load, even off-peak, because they rely on the
> off-peak hours for the transformers to cool.  While we may not appreciate
> all of the details and issues facing the utility with respect to upgrading
> this equipment, the fact is that the utility has identified this as an area
> of concern for them related to popularization of EVs.
>
> Theorising about why the utilities should not be concerned is pointless
> and simply underscores our lack of understanding of the issues facing them.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



--
Marcus Reddish

*North Valley Systems LLC*
Stevensville, Montana
406-360-8628
northvalleyev.com
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