Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc

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Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc

Mark Hanson-2

Hi Folk's,
 
I'd love to peddle to work in a Twike or electric peddle motorcycle.  I really miss bicycling to work when I lived in Colorado with shoulders on the road but here in Virginia there is not (despite whining at public hearings and offering to work on the road crew).  
 
I need something like a Twike or electric-peddle motorcycle where I can get some exercise on the way to work, 30 miles one way (can charge at work) but must do at least 55mph or the bubba's will flatten me.  (I tried riding my bike once & got smacked with a pick-up side mirror).
 
Mark in Roanoke, VA
www.reevadiy.org
www.evalbum.com/1273 E-porsche    
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Re: Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc

Lee Hart
On 9/13/2010 3:29 PM, Mark Hanson wrote:
>
> Hi Folk's,
>
> I'd love to peddle to work in a Twike or electric peddle motorcycle.  I really miss bicycling to work when I lived in Colorado with shoulders on the road but here in Virginia there is not (despite whining at public hearings and offering to work on the road crew).
>
> I need something like a Twike or electric-peddle motorcycle where I can get some exercise on the way to work, 30 miles one way (can charge at work) but must do at least 55mph or the bubba's will flatten me.  (I tried riding my bike once&  got smacked with a pick-up side mirror).

The Twike won't quite do 55 mph, but it's close. It's probably safer
than a motorcycle, but I certainly wouldn't want to get hit by any car
in one.

Are there any alternate routes you can take that would be safer (and
more scenic) by bike? There are usually county roads, residential road,
even farming trails that could work. An E-bike or scooter could make
this quite enjoyable.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Re: Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc

Martin Klingensmith-3
In reply to this post by Mark Hanson-2
On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 4:29 PM, Mark Hanson <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi Folk's,
>
> I'd love to peddle to work in a Twike or electric peddle motorcycle.  I really miss bicycling to work when I lived in Colorado with shoulders on the road but here in Virginia there is not (despite whining at public hearings and offering to work on the road crew).
>
> I need something like a Twike or electric-peddle motorcycle where I can get some exercise on the way to work, 30 miles one way (can charge at work) but must do at least 55mph or the bubba's will flatten me.  (I tried riding my bike once & got smacked with a pick-up side mirror).
>
> Mark in Roanoke, VA
> www.reevadiy.org
> www.evalbum.com/1273 E-porsche

Hi Mark,
I think the only solution is to move to a more bike friendly city.
http://www.railstotrails.org/index.html

[I know, just saying ...]

--
Martin K.

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Re: Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc

Cor van de Water
In reply to this post by Mark Hanson-2
Did you report the driver / license plate?
 
I think about every state has a "safe passing" law
that is clearly violated if you are hit by a passing vehicle,
you do not need to be a lawyer to see who is wrong...

Only by reporting dangerous/illegal activity can you change the
situation by giving Enforcement a chance to pick up repeated
offenders and being aware of the accidents that happen.

It may sound counter-intuitive, but in order to have less risk
of being hit by a close-passing vehicle, you should move further
out *into* the lane when it is narrow.
This manouvre is called "taking the lane" or "controlling the lane"
and if the lane/roadway is too narrow to safely share, this is the
only defense against Yahoos who cannot wait to squeeze by, even
when there is too little space.
You may have to endure a few horn-happy drivers, but it is better
than to get too many close calls.
For the driver the only inconvenience is that they need to switch
lane to overtake you, just as if you were a larger vehicle.

There are many people who follow their intuition and play
Gutter Bunny, only to find that when the road is too narrow, they
will end up in a squeeze and always lose. The two most important
factors in traffic safety is: be predictable and visible.
If you move off the roadway (into the gutter) then you become
"invisible" to many drivers who only scan the lane in front of them
and if you suddenly have to move back in the lane, for example
because of debris in your path, you are not predictable for the
driver that did not have you on their "radar".

Just for your information - I have been on a bicycle for almost
100,000 miles in my life and had a few close calls, it does not
matter whether you ride in Netherlands, California, India, or
elsewhere, there are always inconsiderate or inexperienced drivers...

Safe EV'ing, no matter if it is on 1, 2, 3, 4 or more wheels.

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Mark Hanson
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 2:00 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc


Hi Folk's,
 
I'd love to peddle to work in a Twike or electric peddle motorcycle.  I
really miss bicycling to work when I lived in Colorado with shoulders on
the road but here in Virginia there is not (despite whining at public
hearings and offering to work on the road crew).  
 
I need something like a Twike or electric-peddle motorcycle where I can
get some exercise on the way to work, 30 miles one way (can charge at
work) but must do at least 55mph or the bubba's will flatten me.  (I
tried riding my bike once & got smacked with a pick-up side mirror).
 
Mark in Roanoke, VA
www.reevadiy.org
www.evalbum.com/1273 E-porsche    
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Re: Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc

joe-22
Just be aware that that it is illegal in Oregon (maybe other states as well)
to ride the bicycle in the vehicle lane, or to ride other than single file.
You must stay on the ditch side of the white line, or if there is a marked
bike lane, within the bounds of that marking. Having said that, I doubt that
it is ever enforced, unfortunately in my opinion. In any case, if you ride
in the lane, you have much greater risk of losing your life - and it's not
worth it!

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [hidden email]


----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 9:32 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc


> Did you report the driver / license plate?
>
> I think about every state has a "safe passing" law
> that is clearly violated if you are hit by a passing vehicle,
> you do not need to be a lawyer to see who is wrong...
>
> Only by reporting dangerous/illegal activity can you change the
> situation by giving Enforcement a chance to pick up repeated
> offenders and being aware of the accidents that happen.
>
> It may sound counter-intuitive, but in order to have less risk
> of being hit by a close-passing vehicle, you should move further
> out *into* the lane when it is narrow.
> This manouvre is called "taking the lane" or "controlling the lane"
> and if the lane/roadway is too narrow to safely share, this is the
> only defense against Yahoos who cannot wait to squeeze by, even
> when there is too little space.
> You may have to endure a few horn-happy drivers, but it is better
> than to get too many close calls.
> For the driver the only inconvenience is that they need to switch
> lane to overtake you, just as if you were a larger vehicle.
>
> There are many people who follow their intuition and play
> Gutter Bunny, only to find that when the road is too narrow, they
> will end up in a squeeze and always lose. The two most important
> factors in traffic safety is: be predictable and visible.
> If you move off the roadway (into the gutter) then you become
> "invisible" to many drivers who only scan the lane in front of them
> and if you suddenly have to move back in the lane, for example
> because of debris in your path, you are not predictable for the
> driver that did not have you on their "radar".
>
> Just for your information - I have been on a bicycle for almost
> 100,000 miles in my life and had a few close calls, it does not
> matter whether you ride in Netherlands, California, India, or
> elsewhere, there are always inconsiderate or inexperienced drivers...
>
> Safe EV'ing, no matter if it is on 1, 2, 3, 4 or more wheels.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Mark Hanson
> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 2:00 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>
>
> Hi Folk's,
>
> I'd love to peddle to work in a Twike or electric peddle motorcycle.  I
> really miss bicycling to work when I lived in Colorado with shoulders on
> the road but here in Virginia there is not (despite whining at public
> hearings and offering to work on the road crew).
>
> I need something like a Twike or electric-peddle motorcycle where I can
> get some exercise on the way to work, 30 miles one way (can charge at
> work) but must do at least 55mph or the bubba's will flatten me.  (I
> tried riding my bike once & got smacked with a pick-up side mirror).
>
> Mark in Roanoke, VA
> www.reevadiy.org
> www.evalbum.com/1273 E-porsche
> -------------- next part --------------
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> URL:
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20100913/e9e9cf64/a
> ttachment.html
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Re: Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc

Cor van de Water
Joe,

I am afraid that you are misinformed and you give advice
that has been shown to lead to more accidents than the
advice I originally gave, that is why I shared it.
Oregon vehicle code is not much different than California's
and although this is not a Bicycle list, I still want to
clarify the misconceptions that many people have for the
sake of the electric Bicycle and comparable vehicles out there.

"Taking the Lane" and riding outside of a marked bicycle lane is
allowed under the same conditions in Oregon as in many other
states, you can find the applicable Oregon vehicle code articles
quoted on the following website and below I copied the article
that we are discussing here, with my comments following:
http://bikeportland.org/resources/bicyclelaws
=================================================================
814.430: Improper use of lanes; exceptions; penalty.

(1) A person commits the offense of improper use of lanes by a bicycle
if the person is operating a bicycle on a roadway at less than the
normal speed of traffic using the roadway at that time and place under
the existing conditions and the person does not
ride as close as practicable to the right curb or edge of the roadway.

(2) A person is not in violation of the offense under this section if
the person is not operating a bicycle as close as practicable to the
right curb or edge of the roadway under any of the following
circumstances:

      (a) When overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle that is
proceeding in the same direction.
      (b) When preparing to execute a left turn.
      (c) When reasonably necessary to avoid hazardous conditions
including, but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, parked or moving
vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards or other
conditions that make continued operation along the right curb or edge
unsafe or to avoid unsafe operation in a lane on the roadway that is too
narrow for a bicycle and vehicle to travel safely side by side. Nothing
in this paragraph excuses the operator of a bicycle from the
requirements under ORS 811.425 or from the penalties for failure to
comply with those requirements.
      (d) When operating within a city as near as practicable to the
left curb or edge of a roadway that is designated to allow traffic to
move in only one direction along the roadway. A bicycle that is operated
under this paragraph is subject to the same requirements and exceptions
when operating along the left curb or edge as are applicable when a
bicycle is operating along the right curb or edge of the roadway.
      (e) When operating a bicycle alongside not more than one other
bicycle as long as the bicycles are both being operated within a single
lane and in a manner that does not impede the normal and reasonable
movement of traffic.
      (f) When operating on a bicycle lane or bicycle path.
=======================================================================

So, please note that you are not required to stay on the "ditch" side of
the white line if it is not wise to do so, either by it being blocked,
dirty or unsafe and also if traffic cannot safely pass you anyway, then
you are actually encouraged to ride in the middle of the lane, as the
requirement to ride as close to the right side is removed under each one
of those conditions.

Please note also clause (e) allowing you to ride two abreast on bicycles
as long as both stay in the same lane and do not unnecessarily hinder
other traffic.

It appears that just about all your claims are refuted by the actual
Vehicle Code....

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of joe
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 10:21 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc

Just be aware that that it is illegal in Oregon (maybe other states as
well) to ride the bicycle in the vehicle lane, or to ride other than
single file.
You must stay on the ditch side of the white line, or if there is a
marked bike lane, within the bounds of that marking. Having said that, I
doubt that it is ever enforced, unfortunately in my opinion. In any
case, if you ride in the lane, you have much greater risk of losing your
life - and it's not worth it!

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [hidden email]


----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 9:32 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc


> Did you report the driver / license plate?
>
> I think about every state has a "safe passing" law
> that is clearly violated if you are hit by a passing vehicle,
> you do not need to be a lawyer to see who is wrong...
>
> Only by reporting dangerous/illegal activity can you change the
> situation by giving Enforcement a chance to pick up repeated
> offenders and being aware of the accidents that happen.
>
> It may sound counter-intuitive, but in order to have less risk
> of being hit by a close-passing vehicle, you should move further
> out *into* the lane when it is narrow.
> This manouvre is called "taking the lane" or "controlling the lane"
> and if the lane/roadway is too narrow to safely share, this is the
> only defense against Yahoos who cannot wait to squeeze by, even
> when there is too little space.
> You may have to endure a few horn-happy drivers, but it is better
> than to get too many close calls.
> For the driver the only inconvenience is that they need to switch
> lane to overtake you, just as if you were a larger vehicle.
>
> There are many people who follow their intuition and play
> Gutter Bunny, only to find that when the road is too narrow, they
> will end up in a squeeze and always lose. The two most important
> factors in traffic safety is: be predictable and visible.
> If you move off the roadway (into the gutter) then you become
> "invisible" to many drivers who only scan the lane in front of them
> and if you suddenly have to move back in the lane, for example
> because of debris in your path, you are not predictable for the
> driver that did not have you on their "radar".
>
> Just for your information - I have been on a bicycle for almost
> 100,000 miles in my life and had a few close calls, it does not
> matter whether you ride in Netherlands, California, India, or
> elsewhere, there are always inconsiderate or inexperienced drivers...
>
> Safe EV'ing, no matter if it is on 1, 2, 3, 4 or more wheels.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Mark Hanson
> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 2:00 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>
>
> Hi Folk's,
>
> I'd love to peddle to work in a Twike or electric peddle motorcycle.
I
> really miss bicycling to work when I lived in Colorado with shoulders
on
> the road but here in Virginia there is not (despite whining at public
> hearings and offering to work on the road crew).
>
> I need something like a Twike or electric-peddle motorcycle where I
can

> get some exercise on the way to work, 30 miles one way (can charge at
> work) but must do at least 55mph or the bubba's will flatten me.  (I
> tried riding my bike once & got smacked with a pick-up side mirror).
>
> Mark in Roanoke, VA
> www.reevadiy.org
> www.evalbum.com/1273 E-porsche
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
>
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> ttachment.html
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
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>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
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Re: Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc

Dennis Miles
In reply to this post by joe-22
*Hi, Joe,
     Hey, Boys and Girls,  Wake-up, this is a New Century, Many things have
changed since 1950 when bicycle riders were usually children and followed
the rules for Pedestrians. Since 2001, in Florida, and many other states,
Bicycle riders follow the same rules as Adults driving Motorcycles. Only if
the sidewalk is designated as a "Bicycle Path"  shall bicycles be ridden on
the sidewalk. The preferred lane is to the right unless making a left turn.
We no longer ride on the left facing traffic.
Regards,
Dennis Lee Miles   (Director)     E.V.T.I. inc.
www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM    (Adviser) EVTI-EVA Education Chapter
Phone (863) 944 - 9913
   It’s estimated that the existing U.S. electrical grid has sufficient
capacity
 to fully fuel three-quarters of the nation’s 217 million passenger
vehicles.*
=========================================================
On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 12:50 PM, joe <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Just be aware that that it is illegal in Oregon (maybe other states as
> well)
> to ride the bicycle in the vehicle lane, or to ride other than single file.
> You must stay on the ditch side of the white line, or if there is a marked
> bike lane, within the bounds of that marking. Having said that, I doubt
> that
> it is ever enforced, unfortunately in my opinion. In any case, if you ride
> in the lane, you have much greater risk of losing your life - and it's not
> worth it!
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> E-mail: [hidden email]
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 9:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>
>
> > Did you report the driver / license plate?
> >
> > I think about every state has a "safe passing" law
> > that is clearly violated if you are hit by a passing vehicle,
> > you do not need to be a lawyer to see who is wrong...
> >
> > Only by reporting dangerous/illegal activity can you change the
> > situation by giving Enforcement a chance to pick up repeated
> > offenders and being aware of the accidents that happen.
> >
> > It may sound counter-intuitive, but in order to have less risk
> > of being hit by a close-passing vehicle, you should move further
> > out *into* the lane when it is narrow.
> > This manouvre is called "taking the lane" or "controlling the lane"
> > and if the lane/roadway is too narrow to safely share, this is the
> > only defense against Yahoos who cannot wait to squeeze by, even
> > when there is too little space.
> > You may have to endure a few horn-happy drivers, but it is better
> > than to get too many close calls.
> > For the driver the only inconvenience is that they need to switch
> > lane to overtake you, just as if you were a larger vehicle.
> >
> > There are many people who follow their intuition and play
> > Gutter Bunny, only to find that when the road is too narrow, they
> > will end up in a squeeze and always lose. The two most important
> > factors in traffic safety is: be predictable and visible.
> > If you move off the roadway (into the gutter) then you become
> > "invisible" to many drivers who only scan the lane in front of them
> > and if you suddenly have to move back in the lane, for example
> > because of debris in your path, you are not predictable for the
> > driver that did not have you on their "radar".
> >
> > Just for your information - I have been on a bicycle for almost
> > 100,000 miles in my life and had a few close calls, it does not
> > matter whether you ride in Netherlands, California, India, or
> > elsewhere, there are always inconsiderate or inexperienced drivers...
> >
> > Safe EV'ing, no matter if it is on 1, 2, 3, 4 or more wheels.
> >
> > Cor van de Water
> > Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
> > Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> > Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> > Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
> > Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> > Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> > Behalf Of Mark Hanson
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 2:00 AM
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
> >
> >
> > Hi Folk's,
> >
> > I'd love to peddle to work in a Twike or electric peddle motorcycle.  I
> > really miss bicycling to work when I lived in Colorado with shoulders on
> > the road but here in Virginia there is not (despite whining at public
> > hearings and offering to work on the road crew).
> >
> > I need something like a Twike or electric-peddle motorcycle where I can
> > get some exercise on the way to work, 30 miles one way (can charge at
> > work) but must do at least 55mph or the bubba's will flatten me.  (I
> > tried riding my bike once & got smacked with a pick-up side mirror).
> >
> > Mark in Roanoke, VA
> > www.reevadiy.org
> > www.evalbum.com/1273 E-porsche
>
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Re: Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc

joe-22
In reply to this post by Cor van de Water
It appears that way at first read; however, note that the exceptions and
even the first paragraph specifically state that the bicycle must not impede
the normal flow of traffic, and be traveling at the same rate of speed as
the traffic. Your conditions may exist in the city to some extent, but do
not exist on the road that I live on, or in most rural areas where the speed
limit is 55 MPH, and most vehicles are traveling at 5 - 10 MPH more than the
speed limit! I have yet to see a bicycle that can go that fast!! Yet they
will travel 2 and sometimes more abreast in one lane, and refuse to get over
to allow you to safely pass them, whether there is oncoming traffic or not.
If there is oncoming traffic, seems to me that they are required to get over
as close as is practiacl to the side, and go single file; or they would be
in violation - and that is what I was referring to.

Thanks for providing the applicable text!

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [hidden email]



----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 12:49 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc


> Joe,
>
> I am afraid that you are misinformed and you give advice
> that has been shown to lead to more accidents than the
> advice I originally gave, that is why I shared it.
> Oregon vehicle code is not much different than California's
> and although this is not a Bicycle list, I still want to
> clarify the misconceptions that many people have for the
> sake of the electric Bicycle and comparable vehicles out there.
>
> "Taking the Lane" and riding outside of a marked bicycle lane is
> allowed under the same conditions in Oregon as in many other
> states, you can find the applicable Oregon vehicle code articles
> quoted on the following website and below I copied the article
> that we are discussing here, with my comments following:
> http://bikeportland.org/resources/bicyclelaws
> =================================================================
> 814.430: Improper use of lanes; exceptions; penalty.
>
> (1) A person commits the offense of improper use of lanes by a bicycle
> if the person is operating a bicycle on a roadway at less than the
> normal speed of traffic using the roadway at that time and place under
> the existing conditions and the person does not
> ride as close as practicable to the right curb or edge of the roadway.
>
> (2) A person is not in violation of the offense under this section if
> the person is not operating a bicycle as close as practicable to the
> right curb or edge of the roadway under any of the following
> circumstances:
>
>      (a) When overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle that is
> proceeding in the same direction.
>      (b) When preparing to execute a left turn.
>      (c) When reasonably necessary to avoid hazardous conditions
> including, but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, parked or moving
> vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards or other
> conditions that make continued operation along the right curb or edge
> unsafe or to avoid unsafe operation in a lane on the roadway that is too
> narrow for a bicycle and vehicle to travel safely side by side. Nothing
> in this paragraph excuses the operator of a bicycle from the
> requirements under ORS 811.425 or from the penalties for failure to
> comply with those requirements.
>      (d) When operating within a city as near as practicable to the
> left curb or edge of a roadway that is designated to allow traffic to
> move in only one direction along the roadway. A bicycle that is operated
> under this paragraph is subject to the same requirements and exceptions
> when operating along the left curb or edge as are applicable when a
> bicycle is operating along the right curb or edge of the roadway.
>      (e) When operating a bicycle alongside not more than one other
> bicycle as long as the bicycles are both being operated within a single
> lane and in a manner that does not impede the normal and reasonable
> movement of traffic.
>      (f) When operating on a bicycle lane or bicycle path.
> =======================================================================
>
> So, please note that you are not required to stay on the "ditch" side of
> the white line if it is not wise to do so, either by it being blocked,
> dirty or unsafe and also if traffic cannot safely pass you anyway, then
> you are actually encouraged to ride in the middle of the lane, as the
> requirement to ride as close to the right side is removed under each one
> of those conditions.
>
> Please note also clause (e) allowing you to ride two abreast on bicycles
> as long as both stay in the same lane and do not unnecessarily hinder
> other traffic.
>
> It appears that just about all your claims are refuted by the actual
> Vehicle Code....
>
> Cor van de Water
> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of joe
> Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 10:21 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>
> Just be aware that that it is illegal in Oregon (maybe other states as
> well) to ride the bicycle in the vehicle lane, or to ride other than
> single file.
> You must stay on the ditch side of the white line, or if there is a
> marked bike lane, within the bounds of that marking. Having said that, I
> doubt that it is ever enforced, unfortunately in my opinion. In any
> case, if you ride in the lane, you have much greater risk of losing your
> life - and it's not worth it!
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> E-mail: [hidden email]
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 9:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>
>
>> Did you report the driver / license plate?
>>
>> I think about every state has a "safe passing" law
>> that is clearly violated if you are hit by a passing vehicle,
>> you do not need to be a lawyer to see who is wrong...
>>
>> Only by reporting dangerous/illegal activity can you change the
>> situation by giving Enforcement a chance to pick up repeated
>> offenders and being aware of the accidents that happen.
>>
>> It may sound counter-intuitive, but in order to have less risk
>> of being hit by a close-passing vehicle, you should move further
>> out *into* the lane when it is narrow.
>> This manouvre is called "taking the lane" or "controlling the lane"
>> and if the lane/roadway is too narrow to safely share, this is the
>> only defense against Yahoos who cannot wait to squeeze by, even
>> when there is too little space.
>> You may have to endure a few horn-happy drivers, but it is better
>> than to get too many close calls.
>> For the driver the only inconvenience is that they need to switch
>> lane to overtake you, just as if you were a larger vehicle.
>>
>> There are many people who follow their intuition and play
>> Gutter Bunny, only to find that when the road is too narrow, they
>> will end up in a squeeze and always lose. The two most important
>> factors in traffic safety is: be predictable and visible.
>> If you move off the roadway (into the gutter) then you become
>> "invisible" to many drivers who only scan the lane in front of them
>> and if you suddenly have to move back in the lane, for example
>> because of debris in your path, you are not predictable for the
>> driver that did not have you on their "radar".
>>
>> Just for your information - I have been on a bicycle for almost
>> 100,000 miles in my life and had a few close calls, it does not
>> matter whether you ride in Netherlands, California, India, or
>> elsewhere, there are always inconsiderate or inexperienced drivers...
>>
>> Safe EV'ing, no matter if it is on 1, 2, 3, 4 or more wheels.
>>
>> Cor van de Water
>> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
>> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
>> Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
>> Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
>> Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
>> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
>> Behalf Of Mark Hanson
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 2:00 AM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>>
>>
>> Hi Folk's,
>>
>> I'd love to peddle to work in a Twike or electric peddle motorcycle.
> I
>> really miss bicycling to work when I lived in Colorado with shoulders
> on
>> the road but here in Virginia there is not (despite whining at public
>> hearings and offering to work on the road crew).
>>
>> I need something like a Twike or electric-peddle motorcycle where I
> can
>> get some exercise on the way to work, 30 miles one way (can charge at
>> work) but must do at least 55mph or the bubba's will flatten me.  (I
>> tried riding my bike once & got smacked with a pick-up side mirror).
>>
>> Mark in Roanoke, VA
>> www.reevadiy.org
>> www.evalbum.com/1273 E-porsche
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL:
>>
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20100913/e9e9cf64/a
>> ttachment.html
>> _______________________________________________
>> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
>> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
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>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
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>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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Re: Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc

Cor van de Water
Hi Joe,

You are reading it correctly, but the exception is overriding the
first statement, not the other way around.
So normally bicycles need to ride as close as practicable to the
right side, but if one of the exceptions apply then they can
and better take the lane, or a Yahoo in a pickup truck might try
to pass even with oncoming traffic and cause a dangerous situation
by violating the law, so it is in the interest of safety of all
(and since the most likely casualty will be the bicyclist) that the
participants act in a safe manner, there are situations where the
bicycle riding in the middle of the lane on a Highway will be a
safer option than at the edge of a too narrow lane.
Almost every month you see a mixed news item about a bicyclist
being hit while being passed, so in those situations it is better
to make sure you cannot be passed until it is safe.
Bicyclists can and should take control of their own safety by
following the best practiced to stay safe - be visisble and
be predictable.
As I said before, if the driver cannot wait a few seconds for
your safety then you have to act, even endure a horn concert...

Be safe out there,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of joe
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 6:34 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc

It appears that way at first read; however, note that the exceptions and
even the first paragraph specifically state that the bicycle must not
impede the normal flow of traffic, and be traveling at the same rate of
speed as the traffic. Your conditions may exist in the city to some
extent, but do not exist on the road that I live on, or in most rural
areas where the speed limit is 55 MPH, and most vehicles are traveling
at 5 - 10 MPH more than the speed limit! I have yet to see a bicycle
that can go that fast!! Yet they will travel 2 and sometimes more
abreast in one lane, and refuse to get over to allow you to safely pass
them, whether there is oncoming traffic or not.
If there is oncoming traffic, seems to me that they are required to get
over as close as is practiacl to the side, and go single file; or they
would be in violation - and that is what I was referring to.

Thanks for providing the applicable text!

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [hidden email]



----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 12:49 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc


> Joe,
>
> I am afraid that you are misinformed and you give advice
> that has been shown to lead to more accidents than the
> advice I originally gave, that is why I shared it.
> Oregon vehicle code is not much different than California's
> and although this is not a Bicycle list, I still want to
> clarify the misconceptions that many people have for the
> sake of the electric Bicycle and comparable vehicles out there.
>
> "Taking the Lane" and riding outside of a marked bicycle lane is
> allowed under the same conditions in Oregon as in many other
> states, you can find the applicable Oregon vehicle code articles
> quoted on the following website and below I copied the article
> that we are discussing here, with my comments following:
> http://bikeportland.org/resources/bicyclelaws
> =================================================================
> 814.430: Improper use of lanes; exceptions; penalty.
>
> (1) A person commits the offense of improper use of lanes by a bicycle
> if the person is operating a bicycle on a roadway at less than the
> normal speed of traffic using the roadway at that time and place under
> the existing conditions and the person does not
> ride as close as practicable to the right curb or edge of the roadway.
>
> (2) A person is not in violation of the offense under this section if
> the person is not operating a bicycle as close as practicable to the
> right curb or edge of the roadway under any of the following
> circumstances:
>
>      (a) When overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle that
is
> proceeding in the same direction.
>      (b) When preparing to execute a left turn.
>      (c) When reasonably necessary to avoid hazardous conditions
> including, but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, parked or
moving
> vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards or other
> conditions that make continued operation along the right curb or edge
> unsafe or to avoid unsafe operation in a lane on the roadway that is
too
> narrow for a bicycle and vehicle to travel safely side by side.
Nothing
> in this paragraph excuses the operator of a bicycle from the
> requirements under ORS 811.425 or from the penalties for failure to
> comply with those requirements.
>      (d) When operating within a city as near as practicable to the
> left curb or edge of a roadway that is designated to allow traffic to
> move in only one direction along the roadway. A bicycle that is
operated
> under this paragraph is subject to the same requirements and
exceptions
> when operating along the left curb or edge as are applicable when a
> bicycle is operating along the right curb or edge of the roadway.
>      (e) When operating a bicycle alongside not more than one other
> bicycle as long as the bicycles are both being operated within a
single
> lane and in a manner that does not impede the normal and reasonable
> movement of traffic.
>      (f) When operating on a bicycle lane or bicycle path.
>
=======================================================================
>
> So, please note that you are not required to stay on the "ditch" side
of
> the white line if it is not wise to do so, either by it being blocked,
> dirty or unsafe and also if traffic cannot safely pass you anyway,
then
> you are actually encouraged to ride in the middle of the lane, as the
> requirement to ride as close to the right side is removed under each
one
> of those conditions.
>
> Please note also clause (e) allowing you to ride two abreast on
bicycles

> as long as both stay in the same lane and do not unnecessarily hinder
> other traffic.
>
> It appears that just about all your claims are refuted by the actual
> Vehicle Code....
>
> Cor van de Water
> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of joe
> Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 10:21 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>
> Just be aware that that it is illegal in Oregon (maybe other states as
> well) to ride the bicycle in the vehicle lane, or to ride other than
> single file.
> You must stay on the ditch side of the white line, or if there is a
> marked bike lane, within the bounds of that marking. Having said that,
I
> doubt that it is ever enforced, unfortunately in my opinion. In any
> case, if you ride in the lane, you have much greater risk of losing
your

> life - and it's not worth it!
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> E-mail: [hidden email]
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 9:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>
>
>> Did you report the driver / license plate?
>>
>> I think about every state has a "safe passing" law
>> that is clearly violated if you are hit by a passing vehicle,
>> you do not need to be a lawyer to see who is wrong...
>>
>> Only by reporting dangerous/illegal activity can you change the
>> situation by giving Enforcement a chance to pick up repeated
>> offenders and being aware of the accidents that happen.
>>
>> It may sound counter-intuitive, but in order to have less risk
>> of being hit by a close-passing vehicle, you should move further
>> out *into* the lane when it is narrow.
>> This manouvre is called "taking the lane" or "controlling the lane"
>> and if the lane/roadway is too narrow to safely share, this is the
>> only defense against Yahoos who cannot wait to squeeze by, even
>> when there is too little space.
>> You may have to endure a few horn-happy drivers, but it is better
>> than to get too many close calls.
>> For the driver the only inconvenience is that they need to switch
>> lane to overtake you, just as if you were a larger vehicle.
>>
>> There are many people who follow their intuition and play
>> Gutter Bunny, only to find that when the road is too narrow, they
>> will end up in a squeeze and always lose. The two most important
>> factors in traffic safety is: be predictable and visible.
>> If you move off the roadway (into the gutter) then you become
>> "invisible" to many drivers who only scan the lane in front of them
>> and if you suddenly have to move back in the lane, for example
>> because of debris in your path, you are not predictable for the
>> driver that did not have you on their "radar".
>>
>> Just for your information - I have been on a bicycle for almost
>> 100,000 miles in my life and had a few close calls, it does not
>> matter whether you ride in Netherlands, California, India, or
>> elsewhere, there are always inconsiderate or inexperienced drivers...
>>
>> Safe EV'ing, no matter if it is on 1, 2, 3, 4 or more wheels.
>>
>> Cor van de Water
>> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
>> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
>> Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
>> Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
>> Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
>> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
>> Behalf Of Mark Hanson
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 2:00 AM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>>
>>
>> Hi Folk's,
>>
>> I'd love to peddle to work in a Twike or electric peddle motorcycle.
> I
>> really miss bicycling to work when I lived in Colorado with shoulders
> on
>> the road but here in Virginia there is not (despite whining at public
>> hearings and offering to work on the road crew).
>>
>> I need something like a Twike or electric-peddle motorcycle where I
> can
>> get some exercise on the way to work, 30 miles one way (can charge at
>> work) but must do at least 55mph or the bubba's will flatten me.  (I
>> tried riding my bike once & got smacked with a pick-up side mirror).
>>
>> Mark in Roanoke, VA
>> www.reevadiy.org
>> www.evalbum.com/1273 E-porsche
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL:
>>
>
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20100913/e9e9cf64/a

>> ttachment.html
>> _______________________________________________
>> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
>> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
>> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
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Re: Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc

joe-22
You're saying that if a bicyclist thinks that he cannot be passed safely, he
should move to the center of the lane???
That doesn't make any sense at all - the bicyclist does not have the right
of way in ANY situation involving a motorized vehicle! And in any case, on
the road I live on, I have seen them riding in the center (and taking up[
the entire lane 3 abreast) when there was NO oncoming traffic and I was
attempting to get around them! So even if you read it that way (which I
DON'T), they were still in violation of the law!

Point is, folks, if you are on a bicycle on the roadway, electric or not,
DON'T try to press the point or argue with a motorist - you will LOSE the
argument and maybe your life!

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [hidden email]



----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 6:24 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc


> Hi Joe,
>
> You are reading it correctly, but the exception is overriding the
> first statement, not the other way around.
> So normally bicycles need to ride as close as practicable to the
> right side, but if one of the exceptions apply then they can
> and better take the lane, or a Yahoo in a pickup truck might try
> to pass even with oncoming traffic and cause a dangerous situation
> by violating the law, so it is in the interest of safety of all
> (and since the most likely casualty will be the bicyclist) that the
> participants act in a safe manner, there are situations where the
> bicycle riding in the middle of the lane on a Highway will be a
> safer option than at the edge of a too narrow lane.
> Almost every month you see a mixed news item about a bicyclist
> being hit while being passed, so in those situations it is better
> to make sure you cannot be passed until it is safe.
> Bicyclists can and should take control of their own safety by
> following the best practiced to stay safe - be visisble and
> be predictable.
> As I said before, if the driver cannot wait a few seconds for
> your safety then you have to act, even endure a horn concert...
>
> Be safe out there,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of joe
> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 6:34 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>
> It appears that way at first read; however, note that the exceptions and
> even the first paragraph specifically state that the bicycle must not
> impede the normal flow of traffic, and be traveling at the same rate of
> speed as the traffic. Your conditions may exist in the city to some
> extent, but do not exist on the road that I live on, or in most rural
> areas where the speed limit is 55 MPH, and most vehicles are traveling
> at 5 - 10 MPH more than the speed limit! I have yet to see a bicycle
> that can go that fast!! Yet they will travel 2 and sometimes more
> abreast in one lane, and refuse to get over to allow you to safely pass
> them, whether there is oncoming traffic or not.
> If there is oncoming traffic, seems to me that they are required to get
> over as close as is practiacl to the side, and go single file; or they
> would be in violation - and that is what I was referring to.
>
> Thanks for providing the applicable text!
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> E-mail: [hidden email]
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 12:49 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>
>
>> Joe,
>>
>> I am afraid that you are misinformed and you give advice
>> that has been shown to lead to more accidents than the
>> advice I originally gave, that is why I shared it.
>> Oregon vehicle code is not much different than California's
>> and although this is not a Bicycle list, I still want to
>> clarify the misconceptions that many people have for the
>> sake of the electric Bicycle and comparable vehicles out there.
>>
>> "Taking the Lane" and riding outside of a marked bicycle lane is
>> allowed under the same conditions in Oregon as in many other
>> states, you can find the applicable Oregon vehicle code articles
>> quoted on the following website and below I copied the article
>> that we are discussing here, with my comments following:
>> http://bikeportland.org/resources/bicyclelaws
>> =================================================================
>> 814.430: Improper use of lanes; exceptions; penalty.
>>
>> (1) A person commits the offense of improper use of lanes by a bicycle
>> if the person is operating a bicycle on a roadway at less than the
>> normal speed of traffic using the roadway at that time and place under
>> the existing conditions and the person does not
>> ride as close as practicable to the right curb or edge of the roadway.
>>
>> (2) A person is not in violation of the offense under this section if
>> the person is not operating a bicycle as close as practicable to the
>> right curb or edge of the roadway under any of the following
>> circumstances:
>>
>>      (a) When overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle that
> is
>> proceeding in the same direction.
>>      (b) When preparing to execute a left turn.
>>      (c) When reasonably necessary to avoid hazardous conditions
>> including, but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, parked or
> moving
>> vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards or other
>> conditions that make continued operation along the right curb or edge
>> unsafe or to avoid unsafe operation in a lane on the roadway that is
> too
>> narrow for a bicycle and vehicle to travel safely side by side.
> Nothing
>> in this paragraph excuses the operator of a bicycle from the
>> requirements under ORS 811.425 or from the penalties for failure to
>> comply with those requirements.
>>      (d) When operating within a city as near as practicable to the
>> left curb or edge of a roadway that is designated to allow traffic to
>> move in only one direction along the roadway. A bicycle that is
> operated
>> under this paragraph is subject to the same requirements and
> exceptions
>> when operating along the left curb or edge as are applicable when a
>> bicycle is operating along the right curb or edge of the roadway.
>>      (e) When operating a bicycle alongside not more than one other
>> bicycle as long as the bicycles are both being operated within a
> single
>> lane and in a manner that does not impede the normal and reasonable
>> movement of traffic.
>>      (f) When operating on a bicycle lane or bicycle path.
>>
> =======================================================================
>>
>> So, please note that you are not required to stay on the "ditch" side
> of
>> the white line if it is not wise to do so, either by it being blocked,
>> dirty or unsafe and also if traffic cannot safely pass you anyway,
> then
>> you are actually encouraged to ride in the middle of the lane, as the
>> requirement to ride as close to the right side is removed under each
> one
>> of those conditions.
>>
>> Please note also clause (e) allowing you to ride two abreast on
> bicycles
>> as long as both stay in the same lane and do not unnecessarily hinder
>> other traffic.
>>
>> It appears that just about all your claims are refuted by the actual
>> Vehicle Code....
>>
>> Cor van de Water
>> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
>> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
>> Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
>> Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
>> Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
>> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
>> Behalf Of joe
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 10:21 PM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>>
>> Just be aware that that it is illegal in Oregon (maybe other states as
>> well) to ride the bicycle in the vehicle lane, or to ride other than
>> single file.
>> You must stay on the ditch side of the white line, or if there is a
>> marked bike lane, within the bounds of that marking. Having said that,
> I
>> doubt that it is ever enforced, unfortunately in my opinion. In any
>> case, if you ride in the lane, you have much greater risk of losing
> your
>> life - and it's not worth it!
>>
>> Joseph H. Strubhar
>>
>> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>>
>> E-mail: [hidden email]
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 9:32 AM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>>
>>
>>> Did you report the driver / license plate?
>>>
>>> I think about every state has a "safe passing" law
>>> that is clearly violated if you are hit by a passing vehicle,
>>> you do not need to be a lawyer to see who is wrong...
>>>
>>> Only by reporting dangerous/illegal activity can you change the
>>> situation by giving Enforcement a chance to pick up repeated
>>> offenders and being aware of the accidents that happen.
>>>
>>> It may sound counter-intuitive, but in order to have less risk
>>> of being hit by a close-passing vehicle, you should move further
>>> out *into* the lane when it is narrow.
>>> This manouvre is called "taking the lane" or "controlling the lane"
>>> and if the lane/roadway is too narrow to safely share, this is the
>>> only defense against Yahoos who cannot wait to squeeze by, even
>>> when there is too little space.
>>> You may have to endure a few horn-happy drivers, but it is better
>>> than to get too many close calls.
>>> For the driver the only inconvenience is that they need to switch
>>> lane to overtake you, just as if you were a larger vehicle.
>>>
>>> There are many people who follow their intuition and play
>>> Gutter Bunny, only to find that when the road is too narrow, they
>>> will end up in a squeeze and always lose. The two most important
>>> factors in traffic safety is: be predictable and visible.
>>> If you move off the roadway (into the gutter) then you become
>>> "invisible" to many drivers who only scan the lane in front of them
>>> and if you suddenly have to move back in the lane, for example
>>> because of debris in your path, you are not predictable for the
>>> driver that did not have you on their "radar".
>>>
>>> Just for your information - I have been on a bicycle for almost
>>> 100,000 miles in my life and had a few close calls, it does not
>>> matter whether you ride in Netherlands, California, India, or
>>> elsewhere, there are always inconsiderate or inexperienced drivers...
>>>
>>> Safe EV'ing, no matter if it is on 1, 2, 3, 4 or more wheels.
>>>
>>> Cor van de Water
>>> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
>>> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
>>> Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
>>> Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
>>> Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
>>> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
>>> Behalf Of Mark Hanson
>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 2:00 AM
>>> To: [hidden email]
>>> Subject: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Folk's,
>>>
>>> I'd love to peddle to work in a Twike or electric peddle motorcycle.
>> I
>>> really miss bicycling to work when I lived in Colorado with shoulders
>> on
>>> the road but here in Virginia there is not (despite whining at public
>>> hearings and offering to work on the road crew).
>>>
>>> I need something like a Twike or electric-peddle motorcycle where I
>> can
>>> get some exercise on the way to work, 30 miles one way (can charge at
>>> work) but must do at least 55mph or the bubba's will flatten me.  (I
>>> tried riding my bike once & got smacked with a pick-up side mirror).
>>>
>>> Mark in Roanoke, VA
>>> www.reevadiy.org
>>> www.evalbum.com/1273 E-porsche
>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>> URL:
>>>
>>
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>>> ttachment.html
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>>
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Re: Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc

rodhower
Electric or not,
http://bicyclesafe.com/
See "more general tips" several pages down,

Take the whole lane when appropriate.
It's often safer to take the whole lane, or at least ride a little bit to the left, rather than hug the right curb. Here's why:

Cars at intersections ahead of you can see you better if you're squarely in the road rather than on the extreme edge where you're easily overlooked.
Taking the lane prevents cars from passing you too closely on narrow roadways.
Riding a bit to the left prevents you from being a victim of the door prize.
You might worry about slowing down the traffic behind you if you take the lane.  But if you're on the kind of street where you've got cars blocked up behind you or constantly changing lanes to get around you, you're probably on the wrong street and should find a quieter neighborhood street.

Taking the lane works especially well in most traffic circles.  The traffic generally moves slower so it's easy to keep up, riding in the lane makes you more visible to motorists, and taking the lane prevents motorists from right hooking you as they exit the circle.

It's perfectly legal for you to take the lane when appropriate.  Texas State Law (and the laws of most other states) says you have to ride as far to the right as is "practicable".  Here are some things that make it impracticable to ride to the extreme right:

You're in a heavy traffic area with lots of side streets, parking lots, or driveways ahead and to your right.  Cars turning left won't see you because they're looking for traffic in the middle of the road, not on the extreme edge of the road.  Move left. See Collision diagram #1 above.
Cars are passing you too closely.  If the lane is too narrow for cars to pass you safely, then move left and take the whole lane.  Getting buzzed by cars is dangerous.
Cars are parked on the right-hand side of the road.  If you ride too close to these you're gonna get doored when someone gets out of their car.  Move left.
There are risks to both riding to the extreme right as well as taking the lane.  Whether you ride to the right or take the lane depends on the conditions of the roadway you're on.  On wide roadways with few intersections/driveways, right further right.  On narrow roads with lots of intersections, ride farther to the left.   It's not always better to take the lane or to hug the curb; it depends on the roadway you're on.

--- On Fri, 9/17/10, joe <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: joe <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Date: Friday, September 17, 2010, 9:18 AM
> You're saying that if a bicyclist
> thinks that he cannot be passed safely, he
> should move to the center of the lane???
> That doesn't make any sense at all - the bicyclist does not
> have the right
> of way in ANY situation involving a motorized vehicle! And
> in any case, on
> the road I live on, I have seen them riding in the center
> (and taking up[
> the entire lane 3 abreast) when there was NO oncoming
> traffic and I was
> attempting to get around them! So even if you read it that
> way (which I
> DON'T), they were still in violation of the law!
>
> Point is, folks, if you are on a bicycle on the roadway,
> electric or not,
> DON'T try to press the point or argue with a motorist - you
> will LOSE the
> argument and maybe your life!
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> E-mail: [hidden email]
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 6:24 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>
>
> > Hi Joe,
> >
> > You are reading it correctly, but the exception is
> overriding the
> > first statement, not the other way around.
> > So normally bicycles need to ride as close as
> practicable to the
> > right side, but if one of the exceptions apply then
> they can
> > and better take the lane, or a Yahoo in a pickup truck
> might try
> > to pass even with oncoming traffic and cause a
> dangerous situation
> > by violating the law, so it is in the interest of
> safety of all
> > (and since the most likely casualty will be the
> bicyclist) that the
> > participants act in a safe manner, there are
> situations where the
> > bicycle riding in the middle of the lane on a Highway
> will be a
> > safer option than at the edge of a too narrow lane.
> > Almost every month you see a mixed news item about a
> bicyclist
> > being hit while being passed, so in those situations
> it is better
> > to make sure you cannot be passed until it is safe.
> > Bicyclists can and should take control of their own
> safety by
> > following the best practiced to stay safe - be
> visisble and
> > be predictable.
> > As I said before, if the driver cannot wait a few
> seconds for
> > your safety then you have to act, even endure a horn
> concert...
> >
> > Be safe out there,
> >
> > Cor van de Water
> > Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
> > Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> > Email: [hidden email] 
>   Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> > Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
> > Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP:
> +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> > Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]]
> On
> > Behalf Of joe
> > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 6:34 PM
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes
> etc
> >
> > It appears that way at first read; however, note that
> the exceptions and
> > even the first paragraph specifically state that the
> bicycle must not
> > impede the normal flow of traffic, and be traveling at
> the same rate of
> > speed as the traffic. Your conditions may exist in the
> city to some
> > extent, but do not exist on the road that I live on,
> or in most rural
> > areas where the speed limit is 55 MPH, and most
> vehicles are traveling
> > at 5 - 10 MPH more than the speed limit! I have yet to
> see a bicycle
> > that can go that fast!! Yet they will travel 2 and
> sometimes more
> > abreast in one lane, and refuse to get over to allow
> you to safely pass
> > them, whether there is oncoming traffic or not.
> > If there is oncoming traffic, seems to me that they
> are required to get
> > over as close as is practiacl to the side, and go
> single file; or they
> > would be in violation - and that is what I was
> referring to.
> >
> > Thanks for providing the applicable text!
> >
> > Joseph H. Strubhar
> >
> > Web: www.gremcoinc.com
> >
> > E-mail: [hidden email]
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 12:49 AM
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes
> etc
> >
> >
> >> Joe,
> >>
> >> I am afraid that you are misinformed and you give
> advice
> >> that has been shown to lead to more accidents than
> the
> >> advice I originally gave, that is why I shared
> it.
> >> Oregon vehicle code is not much different than
> California's
> >> and although this is not a Bicycle list, I still
> want to
> >> clarify the misconceptions that many people have
> for the
> >> sake of the electric Bicycle and comparable
> vehicles out there.
> >>
> >> "Taking the Lane" and riding outside of a marked
> bicycle lane is
> >> allowed under the same conditions in Oregon as in
> many other
> >> states, you can find the applicable Oregon vehicle
> code articles
> >> quoted on the following website and below I copied
> the article
> >> that we are discussing here, with my comments
> following:
> >> http://bikeportland.org/resources/bicyclelaws
> >>
> =================================================================
> >> 814.430: Improper use of lanes; exceptions;
> penalty.
> >>
> >> (1) A person commits the offense of improper use
> of lanes by a bicycle
> >> if the person is operating a bicycle on a roadway
> at less than the
> >> normal speed of traffic using the roadway at that
> time and place under
> >> the existing conditions and the person does not
> >> ride as close as practicable to the right curb or
> edge of the roadway.
> >>
> >> (2) A person is not in violation of the offense
> under this section if
> >> the person is not operating a bicycle as close as
> practicable to the
> >> right curb or edge of the roadway under any of the
> following
> >> circumstances:
> >>
> >>      (a) When overtaking and
> passing another bicycle or vehicle that
> > is
> >> proceeding in the same direction.
> >>      (b) When preparing to execute
> a left turn.
> >>      (c) When reasonably necessary
> to avoid hazardous conditions
> >> including, but not limited to, fixed or moving
> objects, parked or
> > moving
> >> vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals, surface
> hazards or other
> >> conditions that make continued operation along the
> right curb or edge
> >> unsafe or to avoid unsafe operation in a lane on
> the roadway that is
> > too
> >> narrow for a bicycle and vehicle to travel safely
> side by side.
> > Nothing
> >> in this paragraph excuses the operator of a
> bicycle from the
> >> requirements under ORS 811.425 or from the
> penalties for failure to
> >> comply with those requirements.
> >>      (d) When operating within a
> city as near as practicable to the
> >> left curb or edge of a roadway that is designated
> to allow traffic to
> >> move in only one direction along the roadway. A
> bicycle that is
> > operated
> >> under this paragraph is subject to the same
> requirements and
> > exceptions
> >> when operating along the left curb or edge as are
> applicable when a
> >> bicycle is operating along the right curb or edge
> of the roadway.
> >>      (e) When operating a bicycle
> alongside not more than one other
> >> bicycle as long as the bicycles are both being
> operated within a
> > single
> >> lane and in a manner that does not impede the
> normal and reasonable
> >> movement of traffic.
> >>      (f) When operating on a
> bicycle lane or bicycle path.
> >>
> >
> =======================================================================
> >>
> >> So, please note that you are not required to stay
> on the "ditch" side
> > of
> >> the white line if it is not wise to do so, either
> by it being blocked,
> >> dirty or unsafe and also if traffic cannot safely
> pass you anyway,
> > then
> >> you are actually encouraged to ride in the middle
> of the lane, as the
> >> requirement to ride as close to the right side is
> removed under each
> > one
> >> of those conditions.
> >>
> >> Please note also clause (e) allowing you to ride
> two abreast on
> > bicycles
> >> as long as both stay in the same lane and do not
> unnecessarily hinder
> >> other traffic.
> >>
> >> It appears that just about all your claims are
> refuted by the actual
> >> Vehicle Code....
> >>
> >> Cor van de Water
> >> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
> >> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> >> Email: [hidden email] 
>   Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> >> Skype: cor_van_de_water 
>    IM: [hidden email]
> >> Tel: +1 408 383 7626       
> VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> >> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]]
> On
> >> Behalf Of joe
> >> Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 10:21 PM
> >> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> >> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power,
> Twikes etc
> >>
> >> Just be aware that that it is illegal in Oregon
> (maybe other states as
> >> well) to ride the bicycle in the vehicle lane, or
> to ride other than
> >> single file.
> >> You must stay on the ditch side of the white line,
> or if there is a
> >> marked bike lane, within the bounds of that
> marking. Having said that,
> > I
> >> doubt that it is ever enforced, unfortunately in
> my opinion. In any
> >> case, if you ride in the lane, you have much
> greater risk of losing
> > your
> >> life - and it's not worth it!
> >>
> >> Joseph H. Strubhar
> >>
> >> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
> >>
> >> E-mail: [hidden email]
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
> >> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 9:32 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power,
> Twikes etc
> >>
> >>
> >>> Did you report the driver / license plate?
> >>>
> >>> I think about every state has a "safe passing"
> law
> >>> that is clearly violated if you are hit by a
> passing vehicle,
> >>> you do not need to be a lawyer to see who is
> wrong...
> >>>
> >>> Only by reporting dangerous/illegal activity
> can you change the
> >>> situation by giving Enforcement a chance to
> pick up repeated
> >>> offenders and being aware of the accidents
> that happen.
> >>>
> >>> It may sound counter-intuitive, but in order
> to have less risk
> >>> of being hit by a close-passing vehicle, you
> should move further
> >>> out *into* the lane when it is narrow.
> >>> This manouvre is called "taking the lane" or
> "controlling the lane"
> >>> and if the lane/roadway is too narrow to
> safely share, this is the
> >>> only defense against Yahoos who cannot wait to
> squeeze by, even
> >>> when there is too little space.
> >>> You may have to endure a few horn-happy
> drivers, but it is better
> >>> than to get too many close calls.
> >>> For the driver the only inconvenience is that
> they need to switch
> >>> lane to overtake you, just as if you were a
> larger vehicle.
> >>>
> >>> There are many people who follow their
> intuition and play
> >>> Gutter Bunny, only to find that when the road
> is too narrow, they
> >>> will end up in a squeeze and always lose. The
> two most important
> >>> factors in traffic safety is: be predictable
> and visible.
> >>> If you move off the roadway (into the gutter)
> then you become
> >>> "invisible" to many drivers who only scan the
> lane in front of them
> >>> and if you suddenly have to move back in the
> lane, for example
> >>> because of debris in your path, you are not
> predictable for the
> >>> driver that did not have you on their
> "radar".
> >>>
> >>> Just for your information - I have been on a
> bicycle for almost
> >>> 100,000 miles in my life and had a few close
> calls, it does not
> >>> matter whether you ride in Netherlands,
> California, India, or
> >>> elsewhere, there are always inconsiderate or
> inexperienced drivers...
> >>>
> >>> Safe EV'ing, no matter if it is on 1, 2, 3, 4
> or more wheels.
> >>>
> >>> Cor van de Water
> >>> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
> >>> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> >>> Email: [hidden email] 
>   Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> >>> Skype: cor_van_de_water 
>    IM: [hidden email]
> >>> Tel: +1 408 383 7626     
>   VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> >>> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP:
> +31877841130
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]]
> On
> >>> Behalf Of Mark Hanson
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 2:00 AM
> >>> To: [hidden email]
> >>> Subject: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power,
> Twikes etc
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Hi Folk's,
> >>>
> >>> I'd love to peddle to work in a Twike or
> electric peddle motorcycle.
> >> I
> >>> really miss bicycling to work when I lived in
> Colorado with shoulders
> >> on
> >>> the road but here in Virginia there is not
> (despite whining at public
> >>> hearings and offering to work on the road
> crew).
> >>>
> >>> I need something like a Twike or
> electric-peddle motorcycle where I
> >> can
> >>> get some exercise on the way to work, 30 miles
> one way (can charge at
> >>> work) but must do at least 55mph or the
> bubba's will flatten me.  (I
> >>> tried riding my bike once & got smacked
> with a pick-up side mirror).
> >>>
> >>> Mark in Roanoke, VA
> >>> www.reevadiy.org
> >>> www.evalbum.com/1273 E-porsche
> >>> -------------- next part --------------
> >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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> >>>
> >>
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20100913/e9e9cf64/a
> >>> ttachment.html
> >>>
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> >>>
> >>>
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>
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Re: Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc

SteveS-5
In reply to this post by joe-22
  I think there are two big problems with bicycle safety. Both center
around rights and duties. From the VA law:

"Bicyclists and motorists basically have the same rights and duties, and
the laws governing traffic regulation apply equally to both."

So au contraire to what you think (and sadly what most motorists think),
bicycles have the same basic rights as motorists. The law goes on to say
that bikes should try to stay right, etc etc, but fundamentally they
have the same rights. Read your state law; perhaps your state is
different, but I bet it is not. That's problem #1.

Problem #2 is that many bicyclists don't think they  the same duties as
cars. That means stopping at stop signs and red lights, etc etc. When I
bicycle I do my duty by obeying the traffic laws, and I expect to be
given my rights. I also try very hard not to be on hazardous roads, but
sometimes it cannot be helped. And yes, at times I take the center of
the lane, generally it's when I need to take a left turn. I keep my time
there short and I make my intentions obvious.

I know many  bicyclists are selective in obeying their duties under the
law, but that doesn't take away their rights.

-SteveS

On 9/17/2010 9:18 AM, joe wrote:

> You're saying that if a bicyclist thinks that he cannot be passed safely, he
> should move to the center of the lane???
> That doesn't make any sense at all - the bicyclist does not have the right
> of way in ANY situation involving a motorized vehicle! And in any case, on
> the road I live on, I have seen them riding in the center (and taking up[
> the entire lane 3 abreast) when there was NO oncoming traffic and I was
> attempting to get around them! So even if you read it that way (which I
> DON'T), they were still in violation of the law!
>
> Point is, folks, if you are on a bicycle on the roadway, electric or not,
> DON'T try to press the point or argue with a motorist - you will LOSE the
> argument and maybe your life!
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> E-mail: [hidden email]
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cor van de Water"<[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"<[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 6:24 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>
>
>> Hi Joe,
>>
>> You are reading it correctly, but the exception is overriding the
>> first statement, not the other way around.
>> So normally bicycles need to ride as close as practicable to the
>> right side, but if one of the exceptions apply then they can
>> and better take the lane, or a Yahoo in a pickup truck might try
>> to pass even with oncoming traffic and cause a dangerous situation
>> by violating the law, so it is in the interest of safety of all
>> (and since the most likely casualty will be the bicyclist) that the
>> participants act in a safe manner, there are situations where the
>> bicycle riding in the middle of the lane on a Highway will be a
>> safer option than at the edge of a too narrow lane.
>> Almost every month you see a mixed news item about a bicyclist
>> being hit while being passed, so in those situations it is better
>> to make sure you cannot be passed until it is safe.
>> Bicyclists can and should take control of their own safety by
>> following the best practiced to stay safe - be visisble and
>> be predictable.
>> As I said before, if the driver cannot wait a few seconds for
>> your safety then you have to act, even endure a horn concert...
>>
>> Be safe out there,
>>
>> Cor van de Water
>> Director HW&  Systems Architecture Group
>> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
>> Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
>> Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
>> Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
>> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
>> Behalf Of joe
>> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 6:34 PM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>>
>> It appears that way at first read; however, note that the exceptions and
>> even the first paragraph specifically state that the bicycle must not
>> impede the normal flow of traffic, and be traveling at the same rate of
>> speed as the traffic. Your conditions may exist in the city to some
>> extent, but do not exist on the road that I live on, or in most rural
>> areas where the speed limit is 55 MPH, and most vehicles are traveling
>> at 5 - 10 MPH more than the speed limit! I have yet to see a bicycle
>> that can go that fast!! Yet they will travel 2 and sometimes more
>> abreast in one lane, and refuse to get over to allow you to safely pass
>> them, whether there is oncoming traffic or not.
>> If there is oncoming traffic, seems to me that they are required to get
>> over as close as is practiacl to the side, and go single file; or they
>> would be in violation - and that is what I was referring to.
>>
>> Thanks for providing the applicable text!
>>
>> Joseph H. Strubhar
>>
>> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>>
>> E-mail: [hidden email]
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Cor van de Water"<[hidden email]>
>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"<[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 12:49 AM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>>
>>
>>> Joe,
>>>
>>> I am afraid that you are misinformed and you give advice
>>> that has been shown to lead to more accidents than the
>>> advice I originally gave, that is why I shared it.
>>> Oregon vehicle code is not much different than California's
>>> and although this is not a Bicycle list, I still want to
>>> clarify the misconceptions that many people have for the
>>> sake of the electric Bicycle and comparable vehicles out there.
>>>
>>> "Taking the Lane" and riding outside of a marked bicycle lane is
>>> allowed under the same conditions in Oregon as in many other
>>> states, you can find the applicable Oregon vehicle code articles
>>> quoted on the following website and below I copied the article
>>> that we are discussing here, with my comments following:
>>> http://bikeportland.org/resources/bicyclelaws
>>> =================================================================
>>> 814.430: Improper use of lanes; exceptions; penalty.
>>>
>>> (1) A person commits the offense of improper use of lanes by a bicycle
>>> if the person is operating a bicycle on a roadway at less than the
>>> normal speed of traffic using the roadway at that time and place under
>>> the existing conditions and the person does not
>>> ride as close as practicable to the right curb or edge of the roadway.
>>>
>>> (2) A person is not in violation of the offense under this section if
>>> the person is not operating a bicycle as close as practicable to the
>>> right curb or edge of the roadway under any of the following
>>> circumstances:
>>>
>>>       (a) When overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle that
>> is
>>> proceeding in the same direction.
>>>       (b) When preparing to execute a left turn.
>>>       (c) When reasonably necessary to avoid hazardous conditions
>>> including, but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, parked or
>> moving
>>> vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards or other
>>> conditions that make continued operation along the right curb or edge
>>> unsafe or to avoid unsafe operation in a lane on the roadway that is
>> too
>>> narrow for a bicycle and vehicle to travel safely side by side.
>> Nothing
>>> in this paragraph excuses the operator of a bicycle from the
>>> requirements under ORS 811.425 or from the penalties for failure to
>>> comply with those requirements.
>>>       (d) When operating within a city as near as practicable to the
>>> left curb or edge of a roadway that is designated to allow traffic to
>>> move in only one direction along the roadway. A bicycle that is
>> operated
>>> under this paragraph is subject to the same requirements and
>> exceptions
>>> when operating along the left curb or edge as are applicable when a
>>> bicycle is operating along the right curb or edge of the roadway.
>>>       (e) When operating a bicycle alongside not more than one other
>>> bicycle as long as the bicycles are both being operated within a
>> single
>>> lane and in a manner that does not impede the normal and reasonable
>>> movement of traffic.
>>>       (f) When operating on a bicycle lane or bicycle path.
>>>
>> =======================================================================
>>> So, please note that you are not required to stay on the "ditch" side
>> of
>>> the white line if it is not wise to do so, either by it being blocked,
>>> dirty or unsafe and also if traffic cannot safely pass you anyway,
>> then
>>> you are actually encouraged to ride in the middle of the lane, as the
>>> requirement to ride as close to the right side is removed under each
>> one
>>> of those conditions.
>>>
>>> Please note also clause (e) allowing you to ride two abreast on
>> bicycles
>>> as long as both stay in the same lane and do not unnecessarily hinder
>>> other traffic.
>>>
>>> It appears that just about all your claims are refuted by the actual
>>> Vehicle Code....
>>>
>>> Cor van de Water
>>> Director HW&  Systems Architecture Group
>>> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
>>> Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
>>> Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
>>> Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
>>> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
>>> Behalf Of joe
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 10:21 PM
>>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>>>
>>> Just be aware that that it is illegal in Oregon (maybe other states as
>>> well) to ride the bicycle in the vehicle lane, or to ride other than
>>> single file.
>>> You must stay on the ditch side of the white line, or if there is a
>>> marked bike lane, within the bounds of that marking. Having said that,
>> I
>>> doubt that it is ever enforced, unfortunately in my opinion. In any
>>> case, if you ride in the lane, you have much greater risk of losing
>> your
>>> life - and it's not worth it!
>>>
>>> Joseph H. Strubhar
>>>
>>> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>>>
>>> E-mail: [hidden email]
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Cor van de Water"<[hidden email]>
>>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"<[hidden email]>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 9:32 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>>>
>>>
>>>> Did you report the driver / license plate?
>>>>
>>>> I think about every state has a "safe passing" law
>>>> that is clearly violated if you are hit by a passing vehicle,
>>>> you do not need to be a lawyer to see who is wrong...
>>>>
>>>> Only by reporting dangerous/illegal activity can you change the
>>>> situation by giving Enforcement a chance to pick up repeated
>>>> offenders and being aware of the accidents that happen.
>>>>
>>>> It may sound counter-intuitive, but in order to have less risk
>>>> of being hit by a close-passing vehicle, you should move further
>>>> out *into* the lane when it is narrow.
>>>> This manouvre is called "taking the lane" or "controlling the lane"
>>>> and if the lane/roadway is too narrow to safely share, this is the
>>>> only defense against Yahoos who cannot wait to squeeze by, even
>>>> when there is too little space.
>>>> You may have to endure a few horn-happy drivers, but it is better
>>>> than to get too many close calls.
>>>> For the driver the only inconvenience is that they need to switch
>>>> lane to overtake you, just as if you were a larger vehicle.
>>>>
>>>> There are many people who follow their intuition and play
>>>> Gutter Bunny, only to find that when the road is too narrow, they
>>>> will end up in a squeeze and always lose. The two most important
>>>> factors in traffic safety is: be predictable and visible.
>>>> If you move off the roadway (into the gutter) then you become
>>>> "invisible" to many drivers who only scan the lane in front of them
>>>> and if you suddenly have to move back in the lane, for example
>>>> because of debris in your path, you are not predictable for the
>>>> driver that did not have you on their "radar".
>>>>
>>>> Just for your information - I have been on a bicycle for almost
>>>> 100,000 miles in my life and had a few close calls, it does not
>>>> matter whether you ride in Netherlands, California, India, or
>>>> elsewhere, there are always inconsiderate or inexperienced drivers...
>>>>
>>>> Safe EV'ing, no matter if it is on 1, 2, 3, 4 or more wheels.
>>>>
>>>> Cor van de Water
>>>> Director HW&  Systems Architecture Group
>>>> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
>>>> Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
>>>> Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
>>>> Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
>>>> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
>>>> Behalf Of Mark Hanson
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 2:00 AM
>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>> Subject: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Folk's,
>>>>
>>>> I'd love to peddle to work in a Twike or electric peddle motorcycle.
>>> I
>>>> really miss bicycling to work when I lived in Colorado with shoulders
>>> on
>>>> the road but here in Virginia there is not (despite whining at public
>>>> hearings and offering to work on the road crew).
>>>>
>>>> I need something like a Twike or electric-peddle motorcycle where I
>>> can
>>>> get some exercise on the way to work, 30 miles one way (can charge at
>>>> work) but must do at least 55mph or the bubba's will flatten me.  (I
>>>> tried riding my bike once&  got smacked with a pick-up side mirror).
>>>>
>>>> Mark in Roanoke, VA
>>>> www.reevadiy.org
>>>> www.evalbum.com/1273 E-porsche
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
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Re: Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc

brougham Baker-2
In reply to this post by joe-22
From: "joe" <[hidden email]>

>So even if you read it that way (which I
> DON'T), they were still in violation of the law!
>
> Point is, folks, if you are on a bicycle on the roadway, electric or not,
> DON'T try to press the point or argue with a motorist - you will LOSE the
> argument and maybe your life!

WOW! I'm so glad that Europe (the bits I've been to anyway) don't do it this
way. Better stop there.

Cheers,

Bro


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Re: Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc

fred ungewitter
In reply to this post by Mark Hanson-2
I hope you list members don't mind if I don't quote the thirty-message-threads
that have been previously posted regarding this subject.

The bicycle law aspect has barely any EV content, although the Twike does fall
into the category, as does any number of electric-assist bicycles. E-assist
bikes are quite valid transportation devices and properly used, are fun as well.

Joe is suffering from the tyranny of speed viewpoint, it appears. It's common in
a car-centric culture to believe, erroneously that one has priority because one
is faster. How many EV owners have said "I have to have 60 mph capability,
because the roads I drive on are so dangerous" when in reality, it's untrue. NEV
owners got the short end with some legislature that got written to limit them to
roads with speed limits of 35 mph or less, and can only operate at 25 mph max.
The latter is likely because they don't have the brakes or stability or any
other factors that make going faster less safe, but the road limitation is
hogwash.

We no longer own a Xebra, but it registered as a motorcycle and was not limited
to 35 mph roads. Roads with speed limits of 45 mph, 55 mph and even 65 mph were
no problem for the Xebra. The vehicle does not know what the sign reads, as the
Xebra was made in China and never learned to read English signs. The drivers on
the roads with the higher speed limits also had no problems with the Xebra and
the Xebra had no problems with them.

I pedal a velomobile for my primary transportation and having taken a LAB
Traffic Skills cycling course, I learned to ride more safely than I knew. In my
area, all the roadways are of insufficient width to share a motor vehicle and
bicycle side-by-side, so I don't let it happen. I've had to educate uninformed
uniformed law enforcement officers, and in four citations, had to have them
dismissed, as some officers are incapable of independent thought, but my riding
continues, in the safest manner possible.

To the OP who suggested that a cyclist is in great danger because automobiles of
many hundreds and in some cases, many thousands of pounds, I suggest that the
automobile driver should relinquish the use of the road to semi-trucks who
clearly outweigh the motor vehicle operator and his vehicle.


I operate my velomobile on roads with 65 mph speed limits and sometimes feel
sorry for the NEV operators who should also be allowed to drive on those roads.
If it means another road user has to slow, or perhaps not slow and only change
lanes, it's a shame. Speed kills, slowing down is a good idea.  If you think you
have to go faster than anyone else, ask yourself, "What makes me more important
that that other road user?"  If you have a valid answer to that question, it
probably means you also have lights and siren to justify it. Otherwise, slow
down, change lanes and be on your way.


By the way, blowing your horn does nothing. In my case, I wave (all fingers) and
laugh.

Bring on the NEVs!



     
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Re: Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc

Buddy Mills @ Cox.net
In reply to this post by joe-22
In July of 2007 Virginia pass a law that require all vehicles passing a
bicycle to allow a buffer of 2 foot.  So when I am riding solo I have a 1/4
wooden dowel painted metallic to look like a metal rod with a red tip on the
end.  It sticks out 18" past the edge of my handle bars.  (not my idea, I
got it from the internet somewhere).  I have only had it broken one time by
a mirror.  Cheap but effective

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of joe
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 9:18 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc

You're saying that if a bicyclist thinks that he cannot be passed safely, he

should move to the center of the lane???
That doesn't make any sense at all - the bicyclist does not have the right
of way in ANY situation involving a motorized vehicle! And in any case, on
the road I live on, I have seen them riding in the center (and taking up[
the entire lane 3 abreast) when there was NO oncoming traffic and I was
attempting to get around them! So even if you read it that way (which I
DON'T), they were still in violation of the law!

Point is, folks, if you are on a bicycle on the roadway, electric or not,
DON'T try to press the point or argue with a motorist - you will LOSE the
argument and maybe your life!

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [hidden email]



----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 6:24 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc


> Hi Joe,
>
> You are reading it correctly, but the exception is overriding the
> first statement, not the other way around.
> So normally bicycles need to ride as close as practicable to the
> right side, but if one of the exceptions apply then they can
> and better take the lane, or a Yahoo in a pickup truck might try
> to pass even with oncoming traffic and cause a dangerous situation
> by violating the law, so it is in the interest of safety of all
> (and since the most likely casualty will be the bicyclist) that the
> participants act in a safe manner, there are situations where the
> bicycle riding in the middle of the lane on a Highway will be a
> safer option than at the edge of a too narrow lane.
> Almost every month you see a mixed news item about a bicyclist
> being hit while being passed, so in those situations it is better
> to make sure you cannot be passed until it is safe.
> Bicyclists can and should take control of their own safety by
> following the best practiced to stay safe - be visisble and
> be predictable.
> As I said before, if the driver cannot wait a few seconds for
> your safety then you have to act, even endure a horn concert...
>
> Be safe out there,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of joe
> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 6:34 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>
> It appears that way at first read; however, note that the exceptions and
> even the first paragraph specifically state that the bicycle must not
> impede the normal flow of traffic, and be traveling at the same rate of
> speed as the traffic. Your conditions may exist in the city to some
> extent, but do not exist on the road that I live on, or in most rural
> areas where the speed limit is 55 MPH, and most vehicles are traveling
> at 5 - 10 MPH more than the speed limit! I have yet to see a bicycle
> that can go that fast!! Yet they will travel 2 and sometimes more
> abreast in one lane, and refuse to get over to allow you to safely pass
> them, whether there is oncoming traffic or not.
> If there is oncoming traffic, seems to me that they are required to get
> over as close as is practiacl to the side, and go single file; or they
> would be in violation - and that is what I was referring to.
>
> Thanks for providing the applicable text!
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> E-mail: [hidden email]
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 12:49 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>
>
>> Joe,
>>
>> I am afraid that you are misinformed and you give advice
>> that has been shown to lead to more accidents than the
>> advice I originally gave, that is why I shared it.
>> Oregon vehicle code is not much different than California's
>> and although this is not a Bicycle list, I still want to
>> clarify the misconceptions that many people have for the
>> sake of the electric Bicycle and comparable vehicles out there.
>>
>> "Taking the Lane" and riding outside of a marked bicycle lane is
>> allowed under the same conditions in Oregon as in many other
>> states, you can find the applicable Oregon vehicle code articles
>> quoted on the following website and below I copied the article
>> that we are discussing here, with my comments following:
>> http://bikeportland.org/resources/bicyclelaws
>> =================================================================
>> 814.430: Improper use of lanes; exceptions; penalty.
>>
>> (1) A person commits the offense of improper use of lanes by a bicycle
>> if the person is operating a bicycle on a roadway at less than the
>> normal speed of traffic using the roadway at that time and place under
>> the existing conditions and the person does not
>> ride as close as practicable to the right curb or edge of the roadway.
>>
>> (2) A person is not in violation of the offense under this section if
>> the person is not operating a bicycle as close as practicable to the
>> right curb or edge of the roadway under any of the following
>> circumstances:
>>
>>      (a) When overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle that
> is
>> proceeding in the same direction.
>>      (b) When preparing to execute a left turn.
>>      (c) When reasonably necessary to avoid hazardous conditions
>> including, but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, parked or
> moving
>> vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards or other
>> conditions that make continued operation along the right curb or edge
>> unsafe or to avoid unsafe operation in a lane on the roadway that is
> too
>> narrow for a bicycle and vehicle to travel safely side by side.
> Nothing
>> in this paragraph excuses the operator of a bicycle from the
>> requirements under ORS 811.425 or from the penalties for failure to
>> comply with those requirements.
>>      (d) When operating within a city as near as practicable to the
>> left curb or edge of a roadway that is designated to allow traffic to
>> move in only one direction along the roadway. A bicycle that is
> operated
>> under this paragraph is subject to the same requirements and
> exceptions
>> when operating along the left curb or edge as are applicable when a
>> bicycle is operating along the right curb or edge of the roadway.
>>      (e) When operating a bicycle alongside not more than one other
>> bicycle as long as the bicycles are both being operated within a
> single
>> lane and in a manner that does not impede the normal and reasonable
>> movement of traffic.
>>      (f) When operating on a bicycle lane or bicycle path.
>>
> =======================================================================
>>
>> So, please note that you are not required to stay on the "ditch" side
> of
>> the white line if it is not wise to do so, either by it being blocked,
>> dirty or unsafe and also if traffic cannot safely pass you anyway,
> then
>> you are actually encouraged to ride in the middle of the lane, as the
>> requirement to ride as close to the right side is removed under each
> one
>> of those conditions.
>>
>> Please note also clause (e) allowing you to ride two abreast on
> bicycles
>> as long as both stay in the same lane and do not unnecessarily hinder
>> other traffic.
>>
>> It appears that just about all your claims are refuted by the actual
>> Vehicle Code....
>>
>> Cor van de Water
>> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
>> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
>> Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
>> Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
>> Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
>> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
>> Behalf Of joe
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 10:21 PM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>>
>> Just be aware that that it is illegal in Oregon (maybe other states as
>> well) to ride the bicycle in the vehicle lane, or to ride other than
>> single file.
>> You must stay on the ditch side of the white line, or if there is a
>> marked bike lane, within the bounds of that marking. Having said that,
> I
>> doubt that it is ever enforced, unfortunately in my opinion. In any
>> case, if you ride in the lane, you have much greater risk of losing
> your
>> life - and it's not worth it!
>>
>> Joseph H. Strubhar
>>
>> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>>
>> E-mail: [hidden email]
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 9:32 AM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>>
>>
>>> Did you report the driver / license plate?
>>>
>>> I think about every state has a "safe passing" law
>>> that is clearly violated if you are hit by a passing vehicle,
>>> you do not need to be a lawyer to see who is wrong...
>>>
>>> Only by reporting dangerous/illegal activity can you change the
>>> situation by giving Enforcement a chance to pick up repeated
>>> offenders and being aware of the accidents that happen.
>>>
>>> It may sound counter-intuitive, but in order to have less risk
>>> of being hit by a close-passing vehicle, you should move further
>>> out *into* the lane when it is narrow.
>>> This manouvre is called "taking the lane" or "controlling the lane"
>>> and if the lane/roadway is too narrow to safely share, this is the
>>> only defense against Yahoos who cannot wait to squeeze by, even
>>> when there is too little space.
>>> You may have to endure a few horn-happy drivers, but it is better
>>> than to get too many close calls.
>>> For the driver the only inconvenience is that they need to switch
>>> lane to overtake you, just as if you were a larger vehicle.
>>>
>>> There are many people who follow their intuition and play
>>> Gutter Bunny, only to find that when the road is too narrow, they
>>> will end up in a squeeze and always lose. The two most important
>>> factors in traffic safety is: be predictable and visible.
>>> If you move off the roadway (into the gutter) then you become
>>> "invisible" to many drivers who only scan the lane in front of them
>>> and if you suddenly have to move back in the lane, for example
>>> because of debris in your path, you are not predictable for the
>>> driver that did not have you on their "radar".
>>>
>>> Just for your information - I have been on a bicycle for almost
>>> 100,000 miles in my life and had a few close calls, it does not
>>> matter whether you ride in Netherlands, California, India, or
>>> elsewhere, there are always inconsiderate or inexperienced drivers...
>>>
>>> Safe EV'ing, no matter if it is on 1, 2, 3, 4 or more wheels.
>>>
>>> Cor van de Water
>>> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
>>> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
>>> Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
>>> Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
>>> Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
>>> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
>>> Behalf Of Mark Hanson
>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 2:00 AM
>>> To: [hidden email]
>>> Subject: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Folk's,
>>>
>>> I'd love to peddle to work in a Twike or electric peddle motorcycle.
>> I
>>> really miss bicycling to work when I lived in Colorado with shoulders
>> on
>>> the road but here in Virginia there is not (despite whining at public
>>> hearings and offering to work on the road crew).
>>>
>>> I need something like a Twike or electric-peddle motorcycle where I
>> can
>>> get some exercise on the way to work, 30 miles one way (can charge at
>>> work) but must do at least 55mph or the bubba's will flatten me.  (I
>>> tried riding my bike once & got smacked with a pick-up side mirror).
>>>
>>> Mark in Roanoke, VA
>>> www.reevadiy.org
>>> www.evalbum.com/1273 E-porsche
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>
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Re: Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc

Cor van de Water
In reply to this post by joe-22
Joe wrote:
> You're saying that if a bicyclist thinks that he cannot
> be passed safely, he should move to the center of the lane???

Indeed, that is usually the safest position.

> That doesn't make any sense at all - the bicyclist does not
> have the right of way in ANY situation involving a motorized
> vehicle! And in any case, on the road I live on, I have seen
> them riding in the center (and taking up[ the entire lane 3 abreast)

Hi Joe,
Let me be short as we are on the wrong list for this topic:
- three abreast is illegal.
- bicycles are considered vehicles for the law, with a few exceptions
  such as riding on the shoulder or bicycle path.
  If you think they have no right of way on a motor vehicle *ever*
  then you are misguided. If a motor vehicle makes a turn, it has
  to yield right of way to any other traffic going straight on the
  same road, even to pedestrians and certainly to bicycles.
  If a motor vehicle and a bicycle approach a 4-way stop and the
  bicycle arrives first, clearly it has the right of way.
  If a bicycle is on a through street and a car comes from a side
  street to turn onto the through street, clearly the car driver
  has to yield to the bicyclist. I could go on, you get the point.
  If you do not believe me, study the Vehicle Code or consult
  someone who can speak with authority before you get on the road
  or you might be surprised at what the Judge decides.
- The discussion here was if the bicyclist is allowed to ride in
  the center of the lane and that is indeed legal and safe,
  provided that one of the exceptions is satisfied, keeping the
  cyclist from riding to the rightmost position.
- I agree that a bicycle will lose, even if it is the motor vehicle
  driver who makes the mistake. Unfortunately even many officers
  do not know the Vehicle Code where it applies to bicycles, so many
  a clear violation of vehicle code goes unenforced (the driver gets
  away without even a citation) and the situation perpetuates.

Since I ride my bicycle a lot, I made a point of studying the sections
pertaining to bicycles, so that at least I am aware of how I should be
behaving myself, whether at the handlebars or behind the wheel.

I think we should stop taking EVDL bandwidth and take this topic
to private email from this point.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of joe
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 6:48 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc

You're saying that if a bicyclist thinks that he cannot be passed
safely, he should move to the center of the lane???
That doesn't make any sense at all - the bicyclist does not have the
right of way in ANY situation involving a motorized vehicle! And in any
case, on the road I live on, I have seen them riding in the center (and
taking up[ the entire lane 3 abreast) when there was NO oncoming traffic
and I was attempting to get around them! So even if you read it that way
(which I DON'T), they were still in violation of the law!

Point is, folks, if you are on a bicycle on the roadway, electric or
not, DON'T try to press the point or argue with a motorist - you will
LOSE the argument and maybe your life!

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [hidden email]



----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 6:24 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc


> Hi Joe,
>
> You are reading it correctly, but the exception is overriding the
> first statement, not the other way around.
> So normally bicycles need to ride as close as practicable to the
> right side, but if one of the exceptions apply then they can
> and better take the lane, or a Yahoo in a pickup truck might try
> to pass even with oncoming traffic and cause a dangerous situation
> by violating the law, so it is in the interest of safety of all
> (and since the most likely casualty will be the bicyclist) that the
> participants act in a safe manner, there are situations where the
> bicycle riding in the middle of the lane on a Highway will be a
> safer option than at the edge of a too narrow lane.
> Almost every month you see a mixed news item about a bicyclist
> being hit while being passed, so in those situations it is better
> to make sure you cannot be passed until it is safe.
> Bicyclists can and should take control of their own safety by
> following the best practiced to stay safe - be visisble and
> be predictable.
> As I said before, if the driver cannot wait a few seconds for
> your safety then you have to act, even endure a horn concert...
>
> Be safe out there,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of joe
> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 6:34 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>
> It appears that way at first read; however, note that the exceptions
and
> even the first paragraph specifically state that the bicycle must not
> impede the normal flow of traffic, and be traveling at the same rate
of
> speed as the traffic. Your conditions may exist in the city to some
> extent, but do not exist on the road that I live on, or in most rural
> areas where the speed limit is 55 MPH, and most vehicles are traveling
> at 5 - 10 MPH more than the speed limit! I have yet to see a bicycle
> that can go that fast!! Yet they will travel 2 and sometimes more
> abreast in one lane, and refuse to get over to allow you to safely
pass
> them, whether there is oncoming traffic or not.
> If there is oncoming traffic, seems to me that they are required to
get

> over as close as is practiacl to the side, and go single file; or they
> would be in violation - and that is what I was referring to.
>
> Thanks for providing the applicable text!
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> E-mail: [hidden email]
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 12:49 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>
>
>> Joe,
>>
>> I am afraid that you are misinformed and you give advice
>> that has been shown to lead to more accidents than the
>> advice I originally gave, that is why I shared it.
>> Oregon vehicle code is not much different than California's
>> and although this is not a Bicycle list, I still want to
>> clarify the misconceptions that many people have for the
>> sake of the electric Bicycle and comparable vehicles out there.
>>
>> "Taking the Lane" and riding outside of a marked bicycle lane is
>> allowed under the same conditions in Oregon as in many other
>> states, you can find the applicable Oregon vehicle code articles
>> quoted on the following website and below I copied the article
>> that we are discussing here, with my comments following:
>> http://bikeportland.org/resources/bicyclelaws
>> =================================================================
>> 814.430: Improper use of lanes; exceptions; penalty.
>>
>> (1) A person commits the offense of improper use of lanes by a
bicycle
>> if the person is operating a bicycle on a roadway at less than the
>> normal speed of traffic using the roadway at that time and place
under
>> the existing conditions and the person does not
>> ride as close as practicable to the right curb or edge of the
roadway.

>>
>> (2) A person is not in violation of the offense under this section if
>> the person is not operating a bicycle as close as practicable to the
>> right curb or edge of the roadway under any of the following
>> circumstances:
>>
>>      (a) When overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle that
> is
>> proceeding in the same direction.
>>      (b) When preparing to execute a left turn.
>>      (c) When reasonably necessary to avoid hazardous conditions
>> including, but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, parked or
> moving
>> vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards or other
>> conditions that make continued operation along the right curb or edge
>> unsafe or to avoid unsafe operation in a lane on the roadway that is
> too
>> narrow for a bicycle and vehicle to travel safely side by side.
> Nothing
>> in this paragraph excuses the operator of a bicycle from the
>> requirements under ORS 811.425 or from the penalties for failure to
>> comply with those requirements.
>>      (d) When operating within a city as near as practicable to the
>> left curb or edge of a roadway that is designated to allow traffic to
>> move in only one direction along the roadway. A bicycle that is
> operated
>> under this paragraph is subject to the same requirements and
> exceptions
>> when operating along the left curb or edge as are applicable when a
>> bicycle is operating along the right curb or edge of the roadway.
>>      (e) When operating a bicycle alongside not more than one other
>> bicycle as long as the bicycles are both being operated within a
> single
>> lane and in a manner that does not impede the normal and reasonable
>> movement of traffic.
>>      (f) When operating on a bicycle lane or bicycle path.
>>
>
=======================================================================
>>
>> So, please note that you are not required to stay on the "ditch" side
> of
>> the white line if it is not wise to do so, either by it being
blocked,

>> dirty or unsafe and also if traffic cannot safely pass you anyway,
> then
>> you are actually encouraged to ride in the middle of the lane, as the
>> requirement to ride as close to the right side is removed under each
> one
>> of those conditions.
>>
>> Please note also clause (e) allowing you to ride two abreast on
> bicycles
>> as long as both stay in the same lane and do not unnecessarily hinder
>> other traffic.
>>
>> It appears that just about all your claims are refuted by the actual
>> Vehicle Code....
>>
>> Cor van de Water
>> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
>> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
>> Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
>> Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
>> Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
>> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
>> Behalf Of joe
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 10:21 PM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>>
>> Just be aware that that it is illegal in Oregon (maybe other states
as
>> well) to ride the bicycle in the vehicle lane, or to ride other than
>> single file.
>> You must stay on the ditch side of the white line, or if there is a
>> marked bike lane, within the bounds of that marking. Having said
that,

> I
>> doubt that it is ever enforced, unfortunately in my opinion. In any
>> case, if you ride in the lane, you have much greater risk of losing
> your
>> life - and it's not worth it!
>>
>> Joseph H. Strubhar
>>
>> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>>
>> E-mail: [hidden email]
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 9:32 AM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>>
>>
>>> Did you report the driver / license plate?
>>>
>>> I think about every state has a "safe passing" law
>>> that is clearly violated if you are hit by a passing vehicle,
>>> you do not need to be a lawyer to see who is wrong...
>>>
>>> Only by reporting dangerous/illegal activity can you change the
>>> situation by giving Enforcement a chance to pick up repeated
>>> offenders and being aware of the accidents that happen.
>>>
>>> It may sound counter-intuitive, but in order to have less risk
>>> of being hit by a close-passing vehicle, you should move further
>>> out *into* the lane when it is narrow.
>>> This manouvre is called "taking the lane" or "controlling the lane"
>>> and if the lane/roadway is too narrow to safely share, this is the
>>> only defense against Yahoos who cannot wait to squeeze by, even
>>> when there is too little space.
>>> You may have to endure a few horn-happy drivers, but it is better
>>> than to get too many close calls.
>>> For the driver the only inconvenience is that they need to switch
>>> lane to overtake you, just as if you were a larger vehicle.
>>>
>>> There are many people who follow their intuition and play
>>> Gutter Bunny, only to find that when the road is too narrow, they
>>> will end up in a squeeze and always lose. The two most important
>>> factors in traffic safety is: be predictable and visible.
>>> If you move off the roadway (into the gutter) then you become
>>> "invisible" to many drivers who only scan the lane in front of them
>>> and if you suddenly have to move back in the lane, for example
>>> because of debris in your path, you are not predictable for the
>>> driver that did not have you on their "radar".
>>>
>>> Just for your information - I have been on a bicycle for almost
>>> 100,000 miles in my life and had a few close calls, it does not
>>> matter whether you ride in Netherlands, California, India, or
>>> elsewhere, there are always inconsiderate or inexperienced
drivers...

>>>
>>> Safe EV'ing, no matter if it is on 1, 2, 3, 4 or more wheels.
>>>
>>> Cor van de Water
>>> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
>>> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
>>> Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
>>> Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
>>> Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
>>> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
On

>>> Behalf Of Mark Hanson
>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 2:00 AM
>>> To: [hidden email]
>>> Subject: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Folk's,
>>>
>>> I'd love to peddle to work in a Twike or electric peddle motorcycle.
>> I
>>> really miss bicycling to work when I lived in Colorado with
shoulders
>> on
>>> the road but here in Virginia there is not (despite whining at
public
>>> hearings and offering to work on the road crew).
>>>
>>> I need something like a Twike or electric-peddle motorcycle where I
>> can
>>> get some exercise on the way to work, 30 miles one way (can charge
at

>>> work) but must do at least 55mph or the bubba's will flatten me.  (I
>>> tried riding my bike once & got smacked with a pick-up side mirror).
>>>
>>> Mark in Roanoke, VA
>>> www.reevadiy.org
>>> www.evalbum.com/1273 E-porsche
>>> -------------- next part --------------
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>>>
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Re: Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc

Peter VanDerWal
In reply to this post by joe-22
Actually it does make sense.  Some drivers have an aversion to pulling
into the oncoming lane even when there is no oncoming traffic.
15 years ago I was riding on the white line and I got clipped by a car
when the driver tried to squeeze past without leaving the lane.  Nobody
else in sight but the two of us.  I was on crutches for three weeks and
still have a funny spot on the back of my knee where the car hit me.

Since then, if there isn't enough room to ride completely on the right
side of the line, I ride 2-3 feet into the lane.  When drivers realize
they can't squeeze by, almost all of them go completely into the other
lane.
Letting drivers think they can squeeze by is dangerous.

In Arizona it's not even legal to try to pass a bicyclist riding on the
line without leaving the lane.  The law here requires drivers give
bicyclists a minimum of three feet of clearance between any part of the
car (including the mirrors) and any part of the bike or rider.  If you do
the math, there isn't enough room to pass a bicyclist without leaving the
lane.

It's not really an issue in the town I live in now, tons of bike lanes and
multi-use paths, the roads without them mostly have 3 to 6 foot wide
shoulders to ride on.

> You're saying that if a bicyclist thinks that he cannot be passed safely,
> he
> should move to the center of the lane???
> That doesn't make any sense at all - the bicyclist does not have the right
> of way in ANY situation involving a motorized vehicle! And in any case, on
> the road I live on, I have seen them riding in the center (and taking up[
> the entire lane 3 abreast) when there was NO oncoming traffic and I was
> attempting to get around them! So even if you read it that way (which I
> DON'T), they were still in violation of the law!
>
> Point is, folks, if you are on a bicycle on the roadway, electric or not,
> DON'T try to press the point or argue with a motorist - you will LOSE the
> argument and maybe your life!
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> E-mail: [hidden email]
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 6:24 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>
>
>> Hi Joe,
>>
>> You are reading it correctly, but the exception is overriding the
>> first statement, not the other way around.
>> So normally bicycles need to ride as close as practicable to the
>> right side, but if one of the exceptions apply then they can
>> and better take the lane, or a Yahoo in a pickup truck might try
>> to pass even with oncoming traffic and cause a dangerous situation
>> by violating the law, so it is in the interest of safety of all
>> (and since the most likely casualty will be the bicyclist) that the
>> participants act in a safe manner, there are situations where the
>> bicycle riding in the middle of the lane on a Highway will be a
>> safer option than at the edge of a too narrow lane.
>> Almost every month you see a mixed news item about a bicyclist
>> being hit while being passed, so in those situations it is better
>> to make sure you cannot be passed until it is safe.
>> Bicyclists can and should take control of their own safety by
>> following the best practiced to stay safe - be visisble and
>> be predictable.
>> As I said before, if the driver cannot wait a few seconds for
>> your safety then you have to act, even endure a horn concert...
>>
>> Be safe out there,
>>
>> Cor van de Water
>> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
>> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
>> Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
>> Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
>> Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
>> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
>> Behalf Of joe
>> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 6:34 PM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>>
>> It appears that way at first read; however, note that the exceptions and
>> even the first paragraph specifically state that the bicycle must not
>> impede the normal flow of traffic, and be traveling at the same rate of
>> speed as the traffic. Your conditions may exist in the city to some
>> extent, but do not exist on the road that I live on, or in most rural
>> areas where the speed limit is 55 MPH, and most vehicles are traveling
>> at 5 - 10 MPH more than the speed limit! I have yet to see a bicycle
>> that can go that fast!! Yet they will travel 2 and sometimes more
>> abreast in one lane, and refuse to get over to allow you to safely pass
>> them, whether there is oncoming traffic or not.
>> If there is oncoming traffic, seems to me that they are required to get
>> over as close as is practiacl to the side, and go single file; or they
>> would be in violation - and that is what I was referring to.
>>
>> Thanks for providing the applicable text!
>>
>> Joseph H. Strubhar
>>
>> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>>
>> E-mail: [hidden email]
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 12:49 AM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>>
>>
>>> Joe,
>>>
>>> I am afraid that you are misinformed and you give advice
>>> that has been shown to lead to more accidents than the
>>> advice I originally gave, that is why I shared it.
>>> Oregon vehicle code is not much different than California's
>>> and although this is not a Bicycle list, I still want to
>>> clarify the misconceptions that many people have for the
>>> sake of the electric Bicycle and comparable vehicles out there.
>>>
>>> "Taking the Lane" and riding outside of a marked bicycle lane is
>>> allowed under the same conditions in Oregon as in many other
>>> states, you can find the applicable Oregon vehicle code articles
>>> quoted on the following website and below I copied the article
>>> that we are discussing here, with my comments following:
>>> http://bikeportland.org/resources/bicyclelaws
>>> =================================================================
>>> 814.430: Improper use of lanes; exceptions; penalty.
>>>
>>> (1) A person commits the offense of improper use of lanes by a bicycle
>>> if the person is operating a bicycle on a roadway at less than the
>>> normal speed of traffic using the roadway at that time and place under
>>> the existing conditions and the person does not
>>> ride as close as practicable to the right curb or edge of the roadway.
>>>
>>> (2) A person is not in violation of the offense under this section if
>>> the person is not operating a bicycle as close as practicable to the
>>> right curb or edge of the roadway under any of the following
>>> circumstances:
>>>
>>>      (a) When overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle that
>> is
>>> proceeding in the same direction.
>>>      (b) When preparing to execute a left turn.
>>>      (c) When reasonably necessary to avoid hazardous conditions
>>> including, but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, parked or
>> moving
>>> vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards or other
>>> conditions that make continued operation along the right curb or edge
>>> unsafe or to avoid unsafe operation in a lane on the roadway that is
>> too
>>> narrow for a bicycle and vehicle to travel safely side by side.
>> Nothing
>>> in this paragraph excuses the operator of a bicycle from the
>>> requirements under ORS 811.425 or from the penalties for failure to
>>> comply with those requirements.
>>>      (d) When operating within a city as near as practicable to the
>>> left curb or edge of a roadway that is designated to allow traffic to
>>> move in only one direction along the roadway. A bicycle that is
>> operated
>>> under this paragraph is subject to the same requirements and
>> exceptions
>>> when operating along the left curb or edge as are applicable when a
>>> bicycle is operating along the right curb or edge of the roadway.
>>>      (e) When operating a bicycle alongside not more than one other
>>> bicycle as long as the bicycles are both being operated within a
>> single
>>> lane and in a manner that does not impede the normal and reasonable
>>> movement of traffic.
>>>      (f) When operating on a bicycle lane or bicycle path.
>>>
>> =======================================================================
>>>
>>> So, please note that you are not required to stay on the "ditch" side
>> of
>>> the white line if it is not wise to do so, either by it being blocked,
>>> dirty or unsafe and also if traffic cannot safely pass you anyway,
>> then
>>> you are actually encouraged to ride in the middle of the lane, as the
>>> requirement to ride as close to the right side is removed under each
>> one
>>> of those conditions.
>>>
>>> Please note also clause (e) allowing you to ride two abreast on
>> bicycles
>>> as long as both stay in the same lane and do not unnecessarily hinder
>>> other traffic.
>>>
>>> It appears that just about all your claims are refuted by the actual
>>> Vehicle Code....
>>>
>>> Cor van de Water
>>> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
>>> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
>>> Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
>>> Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
>>> Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
>>> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
>>> Behalf Of joe
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 10:21 PM
>>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>>>
>>> Just be aware that that it is illegal in Oregon (maybe other states as
>>> well) to ride the bicycle in the vehicle lane, or to ride other than
>>> single file.
>>> You must stay on the ditch side of the white line, or if there is a
>>> marked bike lane, within the bounds of that marking. Having said that,
>> I
>>> doubt that it is ever enforced, unfortunately in my opinion. In any
>>> case, if you ride in the lane, you have much greater risk of losing
>> your
>>> life - and it's not worth it!
>>>
>>> Joseph H. Strubhar
>>>
>>> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>>>
>>> E-mail: [hidden email]
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
>>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 9:32 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>>>
>>>
>>>> Did you report the driver / license plate?
>>>>
>>>> I think about every state has a "safe passing" law
>>>> that is clearly violated if you are hit by a passing vehicle,
>>>> you do not need to be a lawyer to see who is wrong...
>>>>
>>>> Only by reporting dangerous/illegal activity can you change the
>>>> situation by giving Enforcement a chance to pick up repeated
>>>> offenders and being aware of the accidents that happen.
>>>>
>>>> It may sound counter-intuitive, but in order to have less risk
>>>> of being hit by a close-passing vehicle, you should move further
>>>> out *into* the lane when it is narrow.
>>>> This manouvre is called "taking the lane" or "controlling the lane"
>>>> and if the lane/roadway is too narrow to safely share, this is the
>>>> only defense against Yahoos who cannot wait to squeeze by, even
>>>> when there is too little space.
>>>> You may have to endure a few horn-happy drivers, but it is better
>>>> than to get too many close calls.
>>>> For the driver the only inconvenience is that they need to switch
>>>> lane to overtake you, just as if you were a larger vehicle.
>>>>
>>>> There are many people who follow their intuition and play
>>>> Gutter Bunny, only to find that when the road is too narrow, they
>>>> will end up in a squeeze and always lose. The two most important
>>>> factors in traffic safety is: be predictable and visible.
>>>> If you move off the roadway (into the gutter) then you become
>>>> "invisible" to many drivers who only scan the lane in front of them
>>>> and if you suddenly have to move back in the lane, for example
>>>> because of debris in your path, you are not predictable for the
>>>> driver that did not have you on their "radar".
>>>>
>>>> Just for your information - I have been on a bicycle for almost
>>>> 100,000 miles in my life and had a few close calls, it does not
>>>> matter whether you ride in Netherlands, California, India, or
>>>> elsewhere, there are always inconsiderate or inexperienced drivers...
>>>>
>>>> Safe EV'ing, no matter if it is on 1, 2, 3, 4 or more wheels.
>>>>
>>>> Cor van de Water
>>>> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
>>>> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
>>>> Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
>>>> Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
>>>> Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
>>>> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
>>>> Behalf Of Mark Hanson
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 2:00 AM
>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>> Subject: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Folk's,
>>>>
>>>> I'd love to peddle to work in a Twike or electric peddle motorcycle.
>>> I
>>>> really miss bicycling to work when I lived in Colorado with shoulders
>>> on
>>>> the road but here in Virginia there is not (despite whining at public
>>>> hearings and offering to work on the road crew).
>>>>
>>>> I need something like a Twike or electric-peddle motorcycle where I
>>> can
>>>> get some exercise on the way to work, 30 miles one way (can charge at
>>>> work) but must do at least 55mph or the bubba's will flatten me.  (I
>>>> tried riding my bike once & got smacked with a pick-up side mirror).
>>>>
>>>> Mark in Roanoke, VA
>>>> www.reevadiy.org
>>>> www.evalbum.com/1273 E-porsche
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
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>>>>
>>>
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Re: Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc

David Chapman-9
Mark,
Suggest you reconsider a Twike if you need to get up to 55 to avoid flattening.
Back in `98 Gary Flo and I took one up to speed just to see what it would do. I
think we got it up to just about 55 before we ran out of runway (Alameda Naval
Air Station) and that was with both Gary and I pedalling our butts off and WITH
full electric assist. Plus i have frankly never felt comfortable with the
tricycle type design. Seemed stable enough but we did not attempt any high speed
turns or adverse weather operation. Regards, David Chapman.


     
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Re: Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc

joe-22
In reply to this post by rodhower
As I stated, these things might work in town, but not in the rural areas -
as far to the right as is practical means just that; stay as far to the
right side of the road as you can. That doesn't mean the center of the lane,
much less moving close to the center of the road, or riding 2 or 3 abreast.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [hidden email]



----- Original Message -----
From: <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 7:09 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc


Electric or not,
http://bicyclesafe.com/
See "more general tips" several pages down,

Take the whole lane when appropriate.
It's often safer to take the whole lane, or at least ride a little bit to
the left, rather than hug the right curb. Here's why:

Cars at intersections ahead of you can see you better if you're squarely in
the road rather than on the extreme edge where you're easily overlooked.
Taking the lane prevents cars from passing you too closely on narrow
roadways.
Riding a bit to the left prevents you from being a victim of the door prize.
You might worry about slowing down the traffic behind you if you take the
lane.  But if you're on the kind of street where you've got cars blocked up
behind you or constantly changing lanes to get around you, you're probably
on the wrong street and should find a quieter neighborhood street.

Taking the lane works especially well in most traffic circles.  The traffic
generally moves slower so it's easy to keep up, riding in the lane makes you
more visible to motorists, and taking the lane prevents motorists from right
hooking you as they exit the circle.

It's perfectly legal for you to take the lane when appropriate.  Texas State
Law (and the laws of most other states) says you have to ride as far to the
right as is "practicable".  Here are some things that make it impracticable
to ride to the extreme right:

You're in a heavy traffic area with lots of side streets, parking lots, or
driveways ahead and to your right.  Cars turning left won't see you because
they're looking for traffic in the middle of the road, not on the extreme
edge of the road.  Move left. See Collision diagram #1 above.
Cars are passing you too closely.  If the lane is too narrow for cars to
pass you safely, then move left and take the whole lane.  Getting buzzed by
cars is dangerous.
Cars are parked on the right-hand side of the road.  If you ride too close
to these you're gonna get doored when someone gets out of their car.  Move
left.
There are risks to both riding to the extreme right as well as taking the
lane.  Whether you ride to the right or take the lane depends on the
conditions of the roadway you're on.  On wide roadways with few
intersections/driveways, right further right.  On narrow roads with lots of
intersections, ride farther to the left.   It's not always better to take
the lane or to hug the curb; it depends on the roadway you're on.

--- On Fri, 9/17/10, joe <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: joe <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Date: Friday, September 17, 2010, 9:18 AM
> You're saying that if a bicyclist
> thinks that he cannot be passed safely, he
> should move to the center of the lane???
> That doesn't make any sense at all - the bicyclist does not
> have the right
> of way in ANY situation involving a motorized vehicle! And
> in any case, on
> the road I live on, I have seen them riding in the center
> (and taking up[
> the entire lane 3 abreast) when there was NO oncoming
> traffic and I was
> attempting to get around them! So even if you read it that
> way (which I
> DON'T), they were still in violation of the law!
>
> Point is, folks, if you are on a bicycle on the roadway,
> electric or not,
> DON'T try to press the point or argue with a motorist - you
> will LOSE the
> argument and maybe your life!
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> E-mail: [hidden email]
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 6:24 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>
>
> > Hi Joe,
> >
> > You are reading it correctly, but the exception is
> overriding the
> > first statement, not the other way around.
> > So normally bicycles need to ride as close as
> practicable to the
> > right side, but if one of the exceptions apply then
> they can
> > and better take the lane, or a Yahoo in a pickup truck
> might try
> > to pass even with oncoming traffic and cause a
> dangerous situation
> > by violating the law, so it is in the interest of
> safety of all
> > (and since the most likely casualty will be the
> bicyclist) that the
> > participants act in a safe manner, there are
> situations where the
> > bicycle riding in the middle of the lane on a Highway
> will be a
> > safer option than at the edge of a too narrow lane.
> > Almost every month you see a mixed news item about a
> bicyclist
> > being hit while being passed, so in those situations
> it is better
> > to make sure you cannot be passed until it is safe.
> > Bicyclists can and should take control of their own
> safety by
> > following the best practiced to stay safe - be
> visisble and
> > be predictable.
> > As I said before, if the driver cannot wait a few
> seconds for
> > your safety then you have to act, even endure a horn
> concert...
> >
> > Be safe out there,
> >
> > Cor van de Water
> > Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
> > Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> > Email: [hidden email]
> Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> > Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [hidden email]
> > Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP:
> +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> > Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]]
> On
> > Behalf Of joe
> > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 6:34 PM
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes
> etc
> >
> > It appears that way at first read; however, note that
> the exceptions and
> > even the first paragraph specifically state that the
> bicycle must not
> > impede the normal flow of traffic, and be traveling at
> the same rate of
> > speed as the traffic. Your conditions may exist in the
> city to some
> > extent, but do not exist on the road that I live on,
> or in most rural
> > areas where the speed limit is 55 MPH, and most
> vehicles are traveling
> > at 5 - 10 MPH more than the speed limit! I have yet to
> see a bicycle
> > that can go that fast!! Yet they will travel 2 and
> sometimes more
> > abreast in one lane, and refuse to get over to allow
> you to safely pass
> > them, whether there is oncoming traffic or not.
> > If there is oncoming traffic, seems to me that they
> are required to get
> > over as close as is practiacl to the side, and go
> single file; or they
> > would be in violation - and that is what I was
> referring to.
> >
> > Thanks for providing the applicable text!
> >
> > Joseph H. Strubhar
> >
> > Web: www.gremcoinc.com
> >
> > E-mail: [hidden email]
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 12:49 AM
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes
> etc
> >
> >
> >> Joe,
> >>
> >> I am afraid that you are misinformed and you give
> advice
> >> that has been shown to lead to more accidents than
> the
> >> advice I originally gave, that is why I shared
> it.
> >> Oregon vehicle code is not much different than
> California's
> >> and although this is not a Bicycle list, I still
> want to
> >> clarify the misconceptions that many people have
> for the
> >> sake of the electric Bicycle and comparable
> vehicles out there.
> >>
> >> "Taking the Lane" and riding outside of a marked
> bicycle lane is
> >> allowed under the same conditions in Oregon as in
> many other
> >> states, you can find the applicable Oregon vehicle
> code articles
> >> quoted on the following website and below I copied
> the article
> >> that we are discussing here, with my comments
> following:
> >> http://bikeportland.org/resources/bicyclelaws
> >>
> =================================================================
> >> 814.430: Improper use of lanes; exceptions;
> penalty.
> >>
> >> (1) A person commits the offense of improper use
> of lanes by a bicycle
> >> if the person is operating a bicycle on a roadway
> at less than the
> >> normal speed of traffic using the roadway at that
> time and place under
> >> the existing conditions and the person does not
> >> ride as close as practicable to the right curb or
> edge of the roadway.
> >>
> >> (2) A person is not in violation of the offense
> under this section if
> >> the person is not operating a bicycle as close as
> practicable to the
> >> right curb or edge of the roadway under any of the
> following
> >> circumstances:
> >>
> >> (a) When overtaking and
> passing another bicycle or vehicle that
> > is
> >> proceeding in the same direction.
> >> (b) When preparing to execute
> a left turn.
> >> (c) When reasonably necessary
> to avoid hazardous conditions
> >> including, but not limited to, fixed or moving
> objects, parked or
> > moving
> >> vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals, surface
> hazards or other
> >> conditions that make continued operation along the
> right curb or edge
> >> unsafe or to avoid unsafe operation in a lane on
> the roadway that is
> > too
> >> narrow for a bicycle and vehicle to travel safely
> side by side.
> > Nothing
> >> in this paragraph excuses the operator of a
> bicycle from the
> >> requirements under ORS 811.425 or from the
> penalties for failure to
> >> comply with those requirements.
> >> (d) When operating within a
> city as near as practicable to the
> >> left curb or edge of a roadway that is designated
> to allow traffic to
> >> move in only one direction along the roadway. A
> bicycle that is
> > operated
> >> under this paragraph is subject to the same
> requirements and
> > exceptions
> >> when operating along the left curb or edge as are
> applicable when a
> >> bicycle is operating along the right curb or edge
> of the roadway.
> >> (e) When operating a bicycle
> alongside not more than one other
> >> bicycle as long as the bicycles are both being
> operated within a
> > single
> >> lane and in a manner that does not impede the
> normal and reasonable
> >> movement of traffic.
> >> (f) When operating on a
> bicycle lane or bicycle path.
> >>
> >
> =======================================================================
> >>
> >> So, please note that you are not required to stay
> on the "ditch" side
> > of
> >> the white line if it is not wise to do so, either
> by it being blocked,
> >> dirty or unsafe and also if traffic cannot safely
> pass you anyway,
> > then
> >> you are actually encouraged to ride in the middle
> of the lane, as the
> >> requirement to ride as close to the right side is
> removed under each
> > one
> >> of those conditions.
> >>
> >> Please note also clause (e) allowing you to ride
> two abreast on
> > bicycles
> >> as long as both stay in the same lane and do not
> unnecessarily hinder
> >> other traffic.
> >>
> >> It appears that just about all your claims are
> refuted by the actual
> >> Vehicle Code....
> >>
> >> Cor van de Water
> >> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
> >> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> >> Email: [hidden email]
> Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> >> Skype: cor_van_de_water
> IM: [hidden email]
> >> Tel: +1 408 383 7626
> VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> >> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]]
> On
> >> Behalf Of joe
> >> Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 10:21 PM
> >> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> >> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power,
> Twikes etc
> >>
> >> Just be aware that that it is illegal in Oregon
> (maybe other states as
> >> well) to ride the bicycle in the vehicle lane, or
> to ride other than
> >> single file.
> >> You must stay on the ditch side of the white line,
> or if there is a
> >> marked bike lane, within the bounds of that
> marking. Having said that,
> > I
> >> doubt that it is ever enforced, unfortunately in
> my opinion. In any
> >> case, if you ride in the lane, you have much
> greater risk of losing
> > your
> >> life - and it's not worth it!
> >>
> >> Joseph H. Strubhar
> >>
> >> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
> >>
> >> E-mail: [hidden email]
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
> >> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 9:32 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power,
> Twikes etc
> >>
> >>
> >>> Did you report the driver / license plate?
> >>>
> >>> I think about every state has a "safe passing"
> law
> >>> that is clearly violated if you are hit by a
> passing vehicle,
> >>> you do not need to be a lawyer to see who is
> wrong...
> >>>
> >>> Only by reporting dangerous/illegal activity
> can you change the
> >>> situation by giving Enforcement a chance to
> pick up repeated
> >>> offenders and being aware of the accidents
> that happen.
> >>>
> >>> It may sound counter-intuitive, but in order
> to have less risk
> >>> of being hit by a close-passing vehicle, you
> should move further
> >>> out *into* the lane when it is narrow.
> >>> This manouvre is called "taking the lane" or
> "controlling the lane"
> >>> and if the lane/roadway is too narrow to
> safely share, this is the
> >>> only defense against Yahoos who cannot wait to
> squeeze by, even
> >>> when there is too little space.
> >>> You may have to endure a few horn-happy
> drivers, but it is better
> >>> than to get too many close calls.
> >>> For the driver the only inconvenience is that
> they need to switch
> >>> lane to overtake you, just as if you were a
> larger vehicle.
> >>>
> >>> There are many people who follow their
> intuition and play
> >>> Gutter Bunny, only to find that when the road
> is too narrow, they
> >>> will end up in a squeeze and always lose. The
> two most important
> >>> factors in traffic safety is: be predictable
> and visible.
> >>> If you move off the roadway (into the gutter)
> then you become
> >>> "invisible" to many drivers who only scan the
> lane in front of them
> >>> and if you suddenly have to move back in the
> lane, for example
> >>> because of debris in your path, you are not
> predictable for the
> >>> driver that did not have you on their
> "radar".
> >>>
> >>> Just for your information - I have been on a
> bicycle for almost
> >>> 100,000 miles in my life and had a few close
> calls, it does not
> >>> matter whether you ride in Netherlands,
> California, India, or
> >>> elsewhere, there are always inconsiderate or
> inexperienced drivers...
> >>>
> >>> Safe EV'ing, no matter if it is on 1, 2, 3, 4
> or more wheels.
> >>>
> >>> Cor van de Water
> >>> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
> >>> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> >>> Email: [hidden email]
> Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> >>> Skype: cor_van_de_water
> IM: [hidden email]
> >>> Tel: +1 408 383 7626
> VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> >>> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP:
> +31877841130
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]]
> On
> >>> Behalf Of Mark Hanson
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 2:00 AM
> >>> To: [hidden email]
> >>> Subject: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power,
> Twikes etc
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Hi Folk's,
> >>>
> >>> I'd love to peddle to work in a Twike or
> electric peddle motorcycle.
> >> I
> >>> really miss bicycling to work when I lived in
> Colorado with shoulders
> >> on
> >>> the road but here in Virginia there is not
> (despite whining at public
> >>> hearings and offering to work on the road
> crew).
> >>>
> >>> I need something like a Twike or
> electric-peddle motorcycle where I
> >> can
> >>> get some exercise on the way to work, 30 miles
> one way (can charge at
> >>> work) but must do at least 55mph or the
> bubba's will flatten me. (I
> >>> tried riding my bike once & got smacked
> with a pick-up side mirror).
> >>>
> >>> Mark in Roanoke, VA
> >>> www.reevadiy.org
> >>> www.evalbum.com/1273 E-porsche
> >>> -------------- next part --------------
> >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >>> URL:
> >>>
> >>
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20100913/e9e9cf64/a
> >>> ttachment.html
> >>>
> _______________________________________________
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> >>>
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Re: Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc

joe-22
In reply to this post by Cor van de Water
Now you're making more sense, Cor - and I was not quite correct when I said
that motor vehicles always have the right of way over bicycles. What I meant
was that some bicyclists seem to think that they don't have to follow the
rules of the road, and that puts them in danger because they can't win the
argument. So they should yield right of way in the open road, whether they
need to or not. Again, I'm not talking about in town - your examples of
right of way at stops, etc. are true, but bicyclists don't have the right to
take over the road out in the country (ie, block the entire lane of travel),
and in so doing hinder other vehicles progress on the open road when there
is no oncoming traffic to consider.

OK, I'm done discussing this on this list - you're right about that, also.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [hidden email]


----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 7:20 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc


> Joe wrote:
>> You're saying that if a bicyclist thinks that he cannot
>> be passed safely, he should move to the center of the lane???
>
> Indeed, that is usually the safest position.
>
>> That doesn't make any sense at all - the bicyclist does not
>> have the right of way in ANY situation involving a motorized
>> vehicle! And in any case, on the road I live on, I have seen
>> them riding in the center (and taking up[ the entire lane 3 abreast)
>
> Hi Joe,
> Let me be short as we are on the wrong list for this topic:
> - three abreast is illegal.
> - bicycles are considered vehicles for the law, with a few exceptions
>  such as riding on the shoulder or bicycle path.
>  If you think they have no right of way on a motor vehicle *ever*
>  then you are misguided. If a motor vehicle makes a turn, it has
>  to yield right of way to any other traffic going straight on the
>  same road, even to pedestrians and certainly to bicycles.
>  If a motor vehicle and a bicycle approach a 4-way stop and the
>  bicycle arrives first, clearly it has the right of way.
>  If a bicycle is on a through street and a car comes from a side
>  street to turn onto the through street, clearly the car driver
>  has to yield to the bicyclist. I could go on, you get the point.
>  If you do not believe me, study the Vehicle Code or consult
>  someone who can speak with authority before you get on the road
>  or you might be surprised at what the Judge decides.
> - The discussion here was if the bicyclist is allowed to ride in
>  the center of the lane and that is indeed legal and safe,
>  provided that one of the exceptions is satisfied, keeping the
>  cyclist from riding to the rightmost position.
> - I agree that a bicycle will lose, even if it is the motor vehicle
>  driver who makes the mistake. Unfortunately even many officers
>  do not know the Vehicle Code where it applies to bicycles, so many
>  a clear violation of vehicle code goes unenforced (the driver gets
>  away without even a citation) and the situation perpetuates.
>
> Since I ride my bicycle a lot, I made a point of studying the sections
> pertaining to bicycles, so that at least I am aware of how I should be
> behaving myself, whether at the handlebars or behind the wheel.
>
> I think we should stop taking EVDL bandwidth and take this topic
> to private email from this point.
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of joe
> Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 6:48 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>
> You're saying that if a bicyclist thinks that he cannot be passed
> safely, he should move to the center of the lane???
> That doesn't make any sense at all - the bicyclist does not have the
> right of way in ANY situation involving a motorized vehicle! And in any
> case, on the road I live on, I have seen them riding in the center (and
> taking up[ the entire lane 3 abreast) when there was NO oncoming traffic
> and I was attempting to get around them! So even if you read it that way
> (which I DON'T), they were still in violation of the law!
>
> Point is, folks, if you are on a bicycle on the roadway, electric or
> not, DON'T try to press the point or argue with a motorist - you will
> LOSE the argument and maybe your life!
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> E-mail: [hidden email]
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 6:24 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>
>
>> Hi Joe,
>>
>> You are reading it correctly, but the exception is overriding the
>> first statement, not the other way around.
>> So normally bicycles need to ride as close as practicable to the
>> right side, but if one of the exceptions apply then they can
>> and better take the lane, or a Yahoo in a pickup truck might try
>> to pass even with oncoming traffic and cause a dangerous situation
>> by violating the law, so it is in the interest of safety of all
>> (and since the most likely casualty will be the bicyclist) that the
>> participants act in a safe manner, there are situations where the
>> bicycle riding in the middle of the lane on a Highway will be a
>> safer option than at the edge of a too narrow lane.
>> Almost every month you see a mixed news item about a bicyclist
>> being hit while being passed, so in those situations it is better
>> to make sure you cannot be passed until it is safe.
>> Bicyclists can and should take control of their own safety by
>> following the best practiced to stay safe - be visisble and
>> be predictable.
>> As I said before, if the driver cannot wait a few seconds for
>> your safety then you have to act, even endure a horn concert...
>>
>> Be safe out there,
>>
>> Cor van de Water
>> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
>> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
>> Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
>> Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
>> Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
>> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
>> Behalf Of joe
>> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 6:34 PM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>>
>> It appears that way at first read; however, note that the exceptions
> and
>> even the first paragraph specifically state that the bicycle must not
>> impede the normal flow of traffic, and be traveling at the same rate
> of
>> speed as the traffic. Your conditions may exist in the city to some
>> extent, but do not exist on the road that I live on, or in most rural
>> areas where the speed limit is 55 MPH, and most vehicles are traveling
>> at 5 - 10 MPH more than the speed limit! I have yet to see a bicycle
>> that can go that fast!! Yet they will travel 2 and sometimes more
>> abreast in one lane, and refuse to get over to allow you to safely
> pass
>> them, whether there is oncoming traffic or not.
>> If there is oncoming traffic, seems to me that they are required to
> get
>> over as close as is practiacl to the side, and go single file; or they
>> would be in violation - and that is what I was referring to.
>>
>> Thanks for providing the applicable text!
>>
>> Joseph H. Strubhar
>>
>> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>>
>> E-mail: [hidden email]
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 12:49 AM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>>
>>
>>> Joe,
>>>
>>> I am afraid that you are misinformed and you give advice
>>> that has been shown to lead to more accidents than the
>>> advice I originally gave, that is why I shared it.
>>> Oregon vehicle code is not much different than California's
>>> and although this is not a Bicycle list, I still want to
>>> clarify the misconceptions that many people have for the
>>> sake of the electric Bicycle and comparable vehicles out there.
>>>
>>> "Taking the Lane" and riding outside of a marked bicycle lane is
>>> allowed under the same conditions in Oregon as in many other
>>> states, you can find the applicable Oregon vehicle code articles
>>> quoted on the following website and below I copied the article
>>> that we are discussing here, with my comments following:
>>> http://bikeportland.org/resources/bicyclelaws
>>> =================================================================
>>> 814.430: Improper use of lanes; exceptions; penalty.
>>>
>>> (1) A person commits the offense of improper use of lanes by a
> bicycle
>>> if the person is operating a bicycle on a roadway at less than the
>>> normal speed of traffic using the roadway at that time and place
> under
>>> the existing conditions and the person does not
>>> ride as close as practicable to the right curb or edge of the
> roadway.
>>>
>>> (2) A person is not in violation of the offense under this section if
>>> the person is not operating a bicycle as close as practicable to the
>>> right curb or edge of the roadway under any of the following
>>> circumstances:
>>>
>>>      (a) When overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle that
>> is
>>> proceeding in the same direction.
>>>      (b) When preparing to execute a left turn.
>>>      (c) When reasonably necessary to avoid hazardous conditions
>>> including, but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, parked or
>> moving
>>> vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards or other
>>> conditions that make continued operation along the right curb or edge
>>> unsafe or to avoid unsafe operation in a lane on the roadway that is
>> too
>>> narrow for a bicycle and vehicle to travel safely side by side.
>> Nothing
>>> in this paragraph excuses the operator of a bicycle from the
>>> requirements under ORS 811.425 or from the penalties for failure to
>>> comply with those requirements.
>>>      (d) When operating within a city as near as practicable to the
>>> left curb or edge of a roadway that is designated to allow traffic to
>>> move in only one direction along the roadway. A bicycle that is
>> operated
>>> under this paragraph is subject to the same requirements and
>> exceptions
>>> when operating along the left curb or edge as are applicable when a
>>> bicycle is operating along the right curb or edge of the roadway.
>>>      (e) When operating a bicycle alongside not more than one other
>>> bicycle as long as the bicycles are both being operated within a
>> single
>>> lane and in a manner that does not impede the normal and reasonable
>>> movement of traffic.
>>>      (f) When operating on a bicycle lane or bicycle path.
>>>
>>
> =======================================================================
>>>
>>> So, please note that you are not required to stay on the "ditch" side
>> of
>>> the white line if it is not wise to do so, either by it being
> blocked,
>>> dirty or unsafe and also if traffic cannot safely pass you anyway,
>> then
>>> you are actually encouraged to ride in the middle of the lane, as the
>>> requirement to ride as close to the right side is removed under each
>> one
>>> of those conditions.
>>>
>>> Please note also clause (e) allowing you to ride two abreast on
>> bicycles
>>> as long as both stay in the same lane and do not unnecessarily hinder
>>> other traffic.
>>>
>>> It appears that just about all your claims are refuted by the actual
>>> Vehicle Code....
>>>
>>> Cor van de Water
>>> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
>>> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
>>> Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
>>> Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
>>> Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
>>> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
>>> Behalf Of joe
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 10:21 PM
>>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>>>
>>> Just be aware that that it is illegal in Oregon (maybe other states
> as
>>> well) to ride the bicycle in the vehicle lane, or to ride other than
>>> single file.
>>> You must stay on the ditch side of the white line, or if there is a
>>> marked bike lane, within the bounds of that marking. Having said
> that,
>> I
>>> doubt that it is ever enforced, unfortunately in my opinion. In any
>>> case, if you ride in the lane, you have much greater risk of losing
>> your
>>> life - and it's not worth it!
>>>
>>> Joseph H. Strubhar
>>>
>>> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>>>
>>> E-mail: [hidden email]
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
>>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 9:32 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>>>
>>>
>>>> Did you report the driver / license plate?
>>>>
>>>> I think about every state has a "safe passing" law
>>>> that is clearly violated if you are hit by a passing vehicle,
>>>> you do not need to be a lawyer to see who is wrong...
>>>>
>>>> Only by reporting dangerous/illegal activity can you change the
>>>> situation by giving Enforcement a chance to pick up repeated
>>>> offenders and being aware of the accidents that happen.
>>>>
>>>> It may sound counter-intuitive, but in order to have less risk
>>>> of being hit by a close-passing vehicle, you should move further
>>>> out *into* the lane when it is narrow.
>>>> This manouvre is called "taking the lane" or "controlling the lane"
>>>> and if the lane/roadway is too narrow to safely share, this is the
>>>> only defense against Yahoos who cannot wait to squeeze by, even
>>>> when there is too little space.
>>>> You may have to endure a few horn-happy drivers, but it is better
>>>> than to get too many close calls.
>>>> For the driver the only inconvenience is that they need to switch
>>>> lane to overtake you, just as if you were a larger vehicle.
>>>>
>>>> There are many people who follow their intuition and play
>>>> Gutter Bunny, only to find that when the road is too narrow, they
>>>> will end up in a squeeze and always lose. The two most important
>>>> factors in traffic safety is: be predictable and visible.
>>>> If you move off the roadway (into the gutter) then you become
>>>> "invisible" to many drivers who only scan the lane in front of them
>>>> and if you suddenly have to move back in the lane, for example
>>>> because of debris in your path, you are not predictable for the
>>>> driver that did not have you on their "radar".
>>>>
>>>> Just for your information - I have been on a bicycle for almost
>>>> 100,000 miles in my life and had a few close calls, it does not
>>>> matter whether you ride in Netherlands, California, India, or
>>>> elsewhere, there are always inconsiderate or inexperienced
> drivers...
>>>>
>>>> Safe EV'ing, no matter if it is on 1, 2, 3, 4 or more wheels.
>>>>
>>>> Cor van de Water
>>>> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
>>>> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
>>>> Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
>>>> Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
>>>> Tel: +1 408 383 7626        VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
>>>> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
> On
>>>> Behalf Of Mark Hanson
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 2:00 AM
>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>> Subject: [EVDL] Electric + Peddle Power, Twikes etc
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Folk's,
>>>>
>>>> I'd love to peddle to work in a Twike or electric peddle motorcycle.
>>> I
>>>> really miss bicycling to work when I lived in Colorado with
> shoulders
>>> on
>>>> the road but here in Virginia there is not (despite whining at
> public
>>>> hearings and offering to work on the road crew).
>>>>
>>>> I need something like a Twike or electric-peddle motorcycle where I
>>> can
>>>> get some exercise on the way to work, 30 miles one way (can charge
> at
>>>> work) but must do at least 55mph or the bubba's will flatten me.  (I
>>>> tried riding my bike once & got smacked with a pick-up side mirror).
>>>>
>>>> Mark in Roanoke, VA
>>>> www.reevadiy.org
>>>> www.evalbum.com/1273 E-porsche
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
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