Exciting new all-in-one box from EVSource

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Exciting new all-in-one box from EVSource

Rick Beebe
I'm at the Electric Vehicle Conversion Convention (EVCCON) in Cape
Girardeau, MO and yesterday Ryan Bohm of EV-Source announced and showed
a pretty cool new box. This is from memory so forgive me if some of the
specs turn out to be slightly different.

It's liquid cooled and contains:

A 50 amp DC/DC converter. Output is adjustable from 12-15 volts.

A charger with user-programmable charge curves. Inputs: 100 amp(!) AC.
90 - 260V 50/60Hz. Built-in J-1772 input. 300 amp(!!) DC--ChaDeMo, Tesla
Supercharger, direct solar panel. CanBus support. The charger can run
either direction. So you could use a big car to recharge a smaller car
if you want. Not something I envision being commonly used, but it does
mean the box could actually mount on the wall connected to a huge
battery pack and become a level 3 EVSE.

Optionally a WarpDrive Industrial controller.

All the contactors.

In a nice weather-proof box. All the connnectors are inside with
gland-nuts to protect the cables.

Available November 15. $3000 without the controller and $4500 with the
controller.

Buy one of these, add a motor, adaptor, batteries, cables and a fuse and
your drivetrain is basically done.

--Rick

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Re: Exciting new all-in-one box from EVSource

gottdi
"the PulsaR is a power distribution unit that combines the functionality of several key components of an ev. With up to 300 amp DC fast charging, the pulsar can also draw 100 amps of 240 VAC and has the ability to work with j1772 charging stations built all over the country. The pulsar can also be configured for use as a 500 amp controller and controller and has an onboard DC-DC converter to provide up to 50 amps at 12V. All contactors are built in. The pulsar is sure to make waves in the EV industry with its highly integrated and cost-competitive design."


The above is directly from the pamphlet provided. Cost competitive at $3K?

The Synkromotive controller is also a charger that can do high amp DC charging and high amp AC charging. It is a built in function of the controller and you can set your charge voltage to what ever you desire. Works great. I am currently setting up a 200 amp AC 110 circuit to charge my pack. I will be charging at about 100 amps into my pack. That will be a 1C charge rate. No need for a $3k extra device.

Pete :)
http://onegreenev.blogspot.com/
No need to wait any longer. You can now buy one off the shelf. You can still build one too.
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Re: Exciting new all-in-one box from EVSource

John Lussmyer
So, how much does a Synkromotive controller cost? (with all contactors, etc..)
How much does a 500A DC controller cost?

Compare total SYSTEM costs.

On Fri Sep 28 16:52:37 PDT 2012 [hidden email] said:

>"the PulsaR is a power distribution unit that combines the functionality of
>several key components of an ev. With up to 300 amp DC fast charging, the
>pulsar can also draw 100 amps of 240 VAC and has the ability to work with
>j1772 charging stations built all over the country. The pulsar can also be
>configured for use as a 500 amp controller and controller and has an onboard
>DC-DC converter to provide up to 50 amps at 12V. All contactors are built
>in. The pulsar is sure to make waves in the EV industry with its highly
>integrated and cost-competitive design."
>
>The above is directly from the pamphlet provided. Cost competitive at $3K?
>
>The Synkromotive controller is also a charger that can do high amp DC
>charging and high amp AC charging. It is a built in function of the
>controller and you can set your charge voltage to what ever you desire.
>Works great. I am currently setting up a 200 amp AC 110 circuit to charge my
>pack. I will be charging at about 100 amps into my pack. That will be a 1C
>charge rate. No need for a $3k extra device.
>
>Pete :)
>
>-----
>http://onegreenev.blogspot.com/
>No need to wait any longer. You can now buy one off the shelf. You can still build one too.
>--
>View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Exciting-new-all-in-one-box-from-EVSource-tp4658249p4658258.html
>Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


--

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Re: Exciting new all-in-one box from EVSource

David Ladd
In reply to this post by gottdi
I'm a very happy Synkromotive user (going on almost a year now), but I don't think it's quite fair to say that they offer built in charging.  Until it is documented and avaliable to an end user (like me), I don't feel like it exists.  

david.
http://www.evalbum.com/4021



>________________________________
> From: gottdi <[hidden email]>

>The Synkromotive controller is also a charger that can do high amp DC
>charging and high amp AC charging. It is a built in function of the
>controller and you can set your charge voltage to what ever you desire.
>Works great. I am currently setting up a 200 amp AC 110 circuit to charge my
>pack. I will be charging at about 100 amps into my pack. That will be a 1C
>charge rate. No need for a $3k extra device.
>
>Pete :)
>


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Re: Exciting new all-in-one box from EVSource

gottdi
Sorry David but it has been a part of the controller from the very beginning and it is too bad that they did not promote this aspect of the controller. I have demonstrated the DC side from a stationary pack already and I am putting together the AC part now. Right now Ives is busy with other more important changes coming than the charging abilities of the controller but it is there and when I am done doing my demonstrations I will post to all who have them how to do it successfully and it is not hard at all.

It is not a matter of feelings. It is a FACT and has been from day one. It was not published to the detriment of Synkromotive. I believe it would have sold better had all the customers known this cool fact. Hell, I have been trying to get a fire under his rear for the last year to promote this aspect. I told him I thought it was a very important thing.
http://onegreenev.blogspot.com/
No need to wait any longer. You can now buy one off the shelf. You can still build one too.
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Re: Exciting new all-in-one box from EVSource

gottdi
In reply to this post by David Ladd
David,

It is available to the end user. Ask.

Pete :)
http://onegreenev.blogspot.com/
No need to wait any longer. You can now buy one off the shelf. You can still build one too.
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Re: Exciting new all-in-one box from EVSource

Jeffrey Jenkins
In reply to this post by gottdi
gottdi wrote
...Hell, I have been trying to get a fire under his rear for the last year to promote this aspect. I told him I thought it was a very important thing.
Perhaps the reason that Synkromotive does not promote the use of their controller as a charger is because it is approved by safety and EMC agency tested for such use? After all, even here in the US you need to have any device that is connected to the AC line tested for safety (by the UL, ETL, CSA, etc.) as well as both radio frequency emissions and immunity to such (ie - FCC Part 15 testing).

The exposed high voltage bus bars on the Synkromotive controller pretty much make it impossible to comply with safety agency testing, while the plastic end caps will allow a copious amount of electromagnetic interference (EMI) to escape from it while in operation.

The new NetGain controller (from what little I can see of it) is in a mostly metal box and the high voltage connections are all made internally. It at least has a chance of passing both safety and EMC agency testing. Of course there are other technical requirements involved here (e.g. - the failure of any one component can not bridge the isolation between the mains and the enclosure and/or any low-voltage systems) but it's not an insurmountable challenge (assuming NetGain Controls is willing/able to spend the $50k or so it would cost to have the controller/charger tested and approved for worldwide use - a tough argument to make for any product in this market, as the market is so small).

The Synkromotive controller has no chance of passing safety and EMC agency testing as-is. Literally, zero.
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Re: Exciting new all-in-one box from EVSource

Lee Hart
On 9/29/2012 9:15 AM, Jeffrey Jenkins wrote:
> Perhaps the reason that Synkromotive does not promote the use of their
> controller as a charger is because it is [not] approved by safety and
> EMC agency tested for such use?

I'll bet that is a big part of the reason. A related reason is that the
AC line is much noisier and harsher than a battery pack. You aren't
going to see kilovolt spikes on a battery; but you *will* on the AC
line! You could easily blow up your expensive controller the next time
there's a thunderstorm.

> After all, even here in the US you need to have any
> device that is connected to the AC line tested for safety (by the UL, ETL,
> CSA, etc.) as well as both radio frequency emissions and immunity to such
> (ie - FCC Part 15 testing).

You don't *need* to get UL or FCC approval to sell or use products in
most places in the USA. There are no state or federal requirements, and
just a few places that have *local* building codes or ordinances that
require them (such as the city of Chicago IL, and Los Angeles county
CA, last I knew).

However, the legal climate makes is risky to sell products that don't
pass UL or FCC requirements. If something goes wrong, the seller can be
sued. Depending on the judge and jury, he could even be convicted of
willful negligence and subject to treble damages for knowingly selling
something "dangerous" (that doesn't meet normal safety standards).

--
I do not waste my life in friction when it could be turned into
momentum. -- Frances Willard
--
Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs [hidden email]

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Re: Exciting new all-in-one box from EVSource

EVDL Administrator
In reply to this post by Jeffrey Jenkins
On 29 Sep 2012 at 7:15, Jeffrey Jenkins wrote:

> After all, even here in the US you need to have any device that is
> connected to the AC line tested for safety (by the UL, ETL, CSA, etc.)
> as well as both radio frequency emissions and immunity to such (ie -
> FCC Part 15 testing).

You didn't define "need to have," so apologies if I'm leaping ahead of you,
but I don't think that's a legal requirement - unless you define "legal
requirement" as "our attorneys said we should."  

AFAIK, the Manzania chargers haven't had any of those tests or markings.  I
don't think the Russco chargers have, either.   Nor do their makers, I
suspect, have highly-paid lawyers on their payroll like the major automakers
probably do.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: Exciting new all-in-one box from EVSource

gottdi
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Jeffrey Jenkins
Its interesting that you can say that without knowing how it all connects. The AC portion will be contained within a box. Just because the charger is in a box does not mean some parts are outside the box that connect to other components.

Thats fine. I know he is just busy with other things and that is why its not promoted. The manual is old and needs updating. He did mention that some folks are just too damn stupid to set things up. It's actually quite easy to setup. So is the AC side of things. It's pretty simple. Seems like many like to make things complex or sound complex.

Have you seen the PulsaR unit? Its HUGE.

I have a quick pic on my blog and its not the best photo but its what we have directly from EVCCON. Crappy phone photo but hey, it is what it is.

http://onegreenev.blogspot.com


Pete :)
http://onegreenev.blogspot.com/
No need to wait any longer. You can now buy one off the shelf. You can still build one too.
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Re: Exciting new all-in-one box from EVSource

Bill Dube
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator
It is not unusual for imported appliances not to have UL approval. It
is not required, or at least not enforced, in most parts of the USA.

Also, some "clever" low-budget appliance manufacturer's will buy line
cords that are UL approved, and have the UL tag on them. They will
then attach that cord, with genuine UL tag, to their non-approved appliance.

Bill D.


At 06:13 PM 9/29/2012, you wrote:

>On 29 Sep 2012 at 7:15, Jeffrey Jenkins wrote:
>
> > After all, even here in the US you need to have any device that is
> > connected to the AC line tested for safety (by the UL, ETL, CSA, etc.)
> > as well as both radio frequency emissions and immunity to such (ie -
> > FCC Part 15 testing).
>
>You didn't define "need to have," so apologies if I'm leaping ahead of you,
>but I don't think that's a legal requirement - unless you define "legal
>requirement" as "our attorneys said we should."
>
>AFAIK, the Manzania chargers haven't had any of those tests or markings.  I
>don't think the Russco chargers have, either.   Nor do their makers, I
>suspect, have highly-paid lawyers on their payroll like the major automakers
>probably do.
>
>David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>EVDL Administrator
>
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
>reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
>email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
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Re: Exciting new all-in-one box from EVSource

David Ladd
In reply to this post by gottdi
----- Original Message -----

> From: gottdi <[hidden email]>

> Thats fine. I know he is just busy with other things and that is why its not
> promoted. The manual is old and needs updating. He did mention that some
> folks are just too damn stupid to set things up. It's actually quite easy to
> setup. So is the AC side of things. It's pretty simple. Seems like many like
> to make things complex or sound complex.



That's probably me he's talking about.  Nice.  I've emailed a few times asking for either a kit I could buy, or detailed instructions on how to set up the controller as a charger and have had no success in getting a reply beyond a very vague picture of it in his car.  

Fact is, I want a charger that can pump 30 amps into my batteries.  I'm about to spend over $2k for one because I am too stupid to figure out how to use my Synkro as a charger with no instructions.

And just for the record, on every other issue I've had during setup and operation, Ives has been VERY quick and helpful with tech support.  I have zero issues with recommending the controller for what it is, but I would not recommend buying it because of it's charging abilities unless you have the knowledge to do it on your own.

david.
http://www.evalbum.com/4021


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Re: Exciting new all-in-one box from EVSource

gottdi
I did have to get the information after he mentioned it during a conversation we had. I too got a vague beginning but pressed him. I know he's busy and a small shop and he does work so the Synkromotive is a side deal. I understand the need to work. When I am done working out any issues I will see if I can get this pushed forward. There have actually been some sales because it DOES do this and because of my videos about the issue. 30 amp charging is cake for this sucker. Either AC or DC. I plan on 50 amps or more. I have had it up to 150amps into the batteries. 175 amps briefly. That was with my DC setup. Putting together the AC and have it almost done. Should be checking in a day or two and I will also do a video.

I'll let him know that there are others wanting to do this as well. I will get back with you on that. I want to see this move forward.

But it is a real deal no matter what you think or feel.

Pete :)
http://onegreenev.blogspot.com/
No need to wait any longer. You can now buy one off the shelf. You can still build one too.
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Re: Exciting new all-in-one box from EVSource

Martin WINLOW
In reply to this post by gottdi

On 29 Sep 2012, at 02:39, gottdi wrote:

> Sorry David but it has been a part of the controller from the very beginning
> and it is too bad that they did not promote this aspect of the controller. I
> have demonstrated the DC side from a stationary pack already and I am
> putting together the AC part now. Right now Ives is busy with other more
> important changes coming than the charging abilities of the controller but
> it is there and when I am done doing my demonstrations I will post to all
> who have them how to do it successfully and it is not hard at all.
>
> It is not a matter of feelings. It is a FACT and has been from day one. It
> was not published to the detriment of Synkromotive. I believe it would have
> sold better had all the customers known this cool fact. Hell, I have been
> trying to get a fire under his rear for the last year to promote this
> aspect. I told him I thought it was a very important thing.
>
>

Sorry 'gotdi' but David is right.  Either it has the ability to work as a charger as well as a controller or it doesn't... Why cloak it all in secrecy?  Surely this would be one its main selling points as it would save the converter at least$1k+ for a similarly capable stand-alone charger?

Can we hear from Synkromotive directly on this?  Perhaps the PulsaR launch makes all this irrelevant...??

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk



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Re: Exciting new all-in-one box from EVSource

Jeffrey Jenkins
In reply to this post by gottdi
gottdi wrote
Its interesting that you can say that without knowing how it all connects. The AC portion will be contained within a box. Just because the charger is in a box does not mean some parts are outside the box that connect to other components.
How do you figure I don't know how "it" all connects? I got to see the new NetGain controller/charger (aka PulsaR) at EVCCON and even talked with Ryan Bohm about it so, yeah, I know what's inside the box.


gottdi wrote
He did mention that some folks are just too damn stupid to set things up.
You didn't give an antecedent to the pronoun "he" above, but from inference it sure sounds like you are referring to Ive's at Synkromotive... Whomever it is, I'm sure they aren't too happy you are repeating it here. With people like you promoting a product who needs product liability lawsuits? :D
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Re: Exciting new all-in-one box from EVSource

EVDL Administrator
In reply to this post by Martin WINLOW
I don't know the controller referenced, but the discussion reminds me of
many small electronic devices.  Sometimes a smartphone, computer, music
player, or other gadget will have a feature designed in, but not promoted or
even described in the published literature.

There are many possible reasons for this.

= The feature was in the original design specifications, but the
manufacturer had to get the gadget on the market to beat the competition,
and didn't have time to implement it fully.

= The manufacturer implemented the feature, but ran out of testing time.  
Unsure whether it was 100% stable, they decided to save it for version 2.0.  

= The feature worked, but not quite as expected, or under spec.  

= The manufacturer couldn't get regulatory approval with the feature
included, or it complicated the process.  (This may be why Toyota left the
EV switch off their 2004-09 Prius models; supposedly it had something to do
with the EPA fuel efficiency tests.)

= The feature worked most of the time, but now and then caused failures, and
the manufacturer didn't want to (or couldn't afford to) handle the resulting
warranty returns.

= The feature worked, but the company's lawyers thought it might raise legal
copyright, patent, or liability issues.

In most of these cases, the feature remains in the product but is hidden.  
With small electronics, if they're popular enough, eventually a hacker (in
the good sense) will find the feature, enable it, and maybe publish
instructions.  

Following those instructions is always at the user's own risk, and the
manufacturer will often void the warranty.  Usually, those who publish the
hacking instructions will add a big, bold warning to that effect.

Caveat emptor.  ;-)

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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Re: Exciting new all-in-one box from EVSource

Jeffrey Jenkins
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator
EVDL Administrator wrote
On 29 Sep 2012 at 7:15, Jeffrey Jenkins wrote:

> After all, even here in the US you need to have any device that is
> connected to the AC line tested for safety (by the UL, ETL, CSA, etc.)
> as well as both radio frequency emissions and immunity to such (ie -
> FCC Part 15 testing).

You didn't define "need to have," so apologies if I'm leaping ahead of you,
but I don't think that's a legal requirement - unless you define "legal
requirement" as "our attorneys said we should."  
This is purely a semantic argument, and not even an entirely correct one at that. Many localities *do* require safety agency testing, though, and a municipality's electrical inspector can always disallow the use of any mains-powered device if it does not bear a mark from a nationally-recognized testing laboratory (aka "NRTL"). In addition, few companies will use, and even fewer still will resell, any non-tested/certified mains-powered device.

It is true that there is no federal-level law/regulation requiring NRTL certification, but, practically speaking, that doesn't mean much.

As for FCC Part 15, that IS a federal-level regulation that applies to ANY electronic device, though it is more of a "reactive" type regulation in that someone has to complain about your product before you are subject to an "enforcement action" as it is euphemistically termed... :D

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Re: Exciting new all-in-one box from EVSource

gottdi
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Martin WINLOW
Martin,

It does and has from DAY ONE. It is a controller and charger. It also charges with the proper cc/cv algorithm and you set your end voltage to what you desire. It works great.

There is no if this or if that. It is and does and always has. It has been unfortunate that it was never put into the manual.

Thats all. Nothing more or less than that. No magic tricks either.

Pete :)
http://onegreenev.blogspot.com/
No need to wait any longer. You can now buy one off the shelf. You can still build one too.
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Re: Exciting new all-in-one box from EVSource

gottdi
In reply to this post by Jeffrey Jenkins
Jeffrey,

I meant the Synkromotive Controller and the connections for charging with it. Just trying to understand your perspective on the matter.


By the way. Do you have pictures of the PulsaR? Been trying to put up as many images of things and information on things from EVCCON as possible for those who could not attend this year like myself.

My son Matthew is there in my place this year in hopes of lighting another fire.

The conversion of our 62 VW Roadster is coming along nicely.

Pete :)
http://onegreenev.blogspot.com/
No need to wait any longer. You can now buy one off the shelf. You can still build one too.
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Re: Exciting new all-in-one box from EVSource

gottdi
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator
David Roden,

The fact that the Synkromotive controller is also a charger is not a HACK. It was a deliberate built in function from the design of the controller. It was designed for those who have large solar battery back up systems so they may take advantage of the stationary DC power pack or another EV to charge your own pack. The advantage there is that the controller can also charge at a very high amperage rate. IE, FAST charging. It is also able to do so with a high amperage AC setup as well. Been so from day of conception. Like I said, its been unfortunate that it was never put into the manual. It will be.

You all speculate but never ask the horse.

Pete :)

That is all. It is nothing more or less than what it is.
http://onegreenev.blogspot.com/
No need to wait any longer. You can now buy one off the shelf. You can still build one too.
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