FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)

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FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I put together a web page for the PowerWheels concept.

That is, using a 3 year old Leaf as a substitute for three Tesla Powerwalls
at one third the price.

And not counting that the powerwall (for emergency backup service) Is only
being used to store $2 worth of electricity and is used only 0.1% of the
typical year (in my neighborhood).

Whereas a Nissan Leaf can also be used the other 99.9% of the time for clean
reliable local transportation, plus backup emergency power...  and not noly
at home, but everywhere you drive it.

http://aprs.org/powerwheels.html

Bob, WB4APR
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Re: FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)

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Minor correction, your 3 year old Leaf is only 30kWH max (with less actually
usable, limited by on-board BMS). It would only take a bit of clever reverse
engineering to make use of ChaDeMo capable Leafs by controlling the
contactor to close and feeding a high voltage solar grid tie inverter (I
believe there are models that can use up to 400V already). Then you could
use up to 20kW comfortably.

--
Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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Re: FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Thaniks.  Yes, I got it wrong.  I updated the web page .

So now a use leaf is about 2.3 power walls but a bit over half the price.
Thanks for the tip.

bob

-----Original Message-----
From: EV <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of jkenny23 via EV
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 6:31 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: jkenny23 <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)

Minor correction, your 3 year old Leaf is only 30kWH max (with less
actually usable, limited by on-board BMS). It would only take a bit of
clever reverse engineering to make use of ChaDeMo capable Leafs by
controlling the contactor to close and feeding a high voltage solar grid
tie inverter (I believe there are models that can use up to 400V already).
Then you could use up to 20kW comfortably.

--
Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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Re: FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
All grid tie central inverters (so, not the micro inverters) take input voltage above 400V so they can direct switch the AC output without transformers. Input is typically up to 1000V these days.
I plan on installing solar strings of at least 400V so that I can always charge my EVs by direct wiring the panels to the battery, in case there is no grid and I need energy in my EV.
I also have a large UPS that is intended to run with 2x 192V lead-acid batteries (it is an older model double conversion UPS) so I am planning to connect it to a Leaf pack with center tap so it can both charge the pack as well as island like any UPS to feed any critical loads in the house. I need to see if it has the power saving setting where it is not always double converting (wasting power) and just keeps the battery charged, but feeds the incoming power through until there is a power loss, then it instantly starts converting battery power to output without even losing the output.
With such a setup, it would be possible to use solar in 2 ways: DC only to directly charge the UPS batteries (but needs overcharge protection and waste power as soon as batteries are full) or the usual string inverter generating AC to feed back into the grid and independently run the UPS to keep the batteries charged and generate uninterrupted power. Only drawback is that during an outage, the solar inverter trips and does not generate power, but this should happen only rarely.

Cor.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Robert Bruninga via EV
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 7:06 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Robert Bruninga; jkenny23
Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)

Thaniks.  Yes, I got it wrong.  I updated the web page .

So now a use leaf is about 2.3 power walls but a bit over half the price.
Thanks for the tip.

bob

-----Original Message-----
From: EV <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of jkenny23 via EV
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 6:31 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: jkenny23 <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)

Minor correction, your 3 year old Leaf is only 30kWH max (with less
actually usable, limited by on-board BMS). It would only take a bit of
clever reverse engineering to make use of ChaDeMo capable Leafs by
controlling the contactor to close and feeding a high voltage solar grid
tie inverter (I believe there are models that can use up to 400V already).
Then you could use up to 20kW comfortably.

--
Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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Re: FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)

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I thought grid tied inverters shutdown the solar panels when no grid power is detected.
 

    On Wednesday, August 14, 2019, 12:50:01 AM CDT, Cor van de Water via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:  
 
 All grid tie central inverters (so, not the micro inverters) take input voltage above 400V so they can direct switch the AC output without transformers. Input is typically up to 1000V these days.
I plan on installing solar strings of at least 400V so that I can always charge my EVs by direct wiring the panels to the battery, in case there is no grid and I need energy in my EV.
I also have a large UPS that is intended to run with 2x 192V lead-acid batteries (it is an older model double conversion UPS) so I am planning to connect it to a Leaf pack with center tap so it can both charge the pack as well as island like any UPS to feed any critical loads in the house. I need to see if it has the power saving setting where it is not always double converting (wasting power) and just keeps the battery charged, but feeds the incoming power through until there is a power loss, then it instantly starts converting battery power to output without even losing the output.
With such a setup, it would be possible to use solar in 2 ways: DC only to directly charge the UPS batteries (but needs overcharge protection and waste power as soon as batteries are full) or the usual string inverter generating AC to feed back into the grid and independently run the UPS to keep the batteries charged and generate uninterrupted power. Only drawback is that during an outage, the solar inverter trips and does not generate power, but this should happen only rarely.

Cor.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Robert Bruninga via EV
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 7:06 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Robert Bruninga; jkenny23
Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)

Thaniks.  Yes, I got it wrong.  I updated the web page .

So now a use leaf is about 2.3 power walls but a bit over half the price.
Thanks for the tip.

bob

-----Original Message-----
From: EV <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of jkenny23 via EV
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 6:31 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: jkenny23 <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)

Minor correction, your 3 year old Leaf is only 30kWH max (with less
actually usable, limited by on-board BMS). It would only take a bit of
clever reverse engineering to make use of ChaDeMo capable Leafs by
controlling the contactor to close and feeding a high voltage solar grid
tie inverter (I believe there are models that can use up to 400V already).
Then you could use up to 20kW comfortably.

--
Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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Re: FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I mean from the solar panels, disabling them.
 

    On Wednesday, August 14, 2019, 12:50:01 AM CDT, Cor van de Water via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:  
 
 All grid tie central inverters (so, not the micro inverters) take input voltage above 400V so they can direct switch the AC output without transformers. Input is typically up to 1000V these days.
I plan on installing solar strings of at least 400V so that I can always charge my EVs by direct wiring the panels to the battery, in case there is no grid and I need energy in my EV.
I also have a large UPS that is intended to run with 2x 192V lead-acid batteries (it is an older model double conversion UPS) so I am planning to connect it to a Leaf pack with center tap so it can both charge the pack as well as island like any UPS to feed any critical loads in the house. I need to see if it has the power saving setting where it is not always double converting (wasting power) and just keeps the battery charged, but feeds the incoming power through until there is a power loss, then it instantly starts converting battery power to output without even losing the output.
With such a setup, it would be possible to use solar in 2 ways: DC only to directly charge the UPS batteries (but needs overcharge protection and waste power as soon as batteries are full) or the usual string inverter generating AC to feed back into the grid and independently run the UPS to keep the batteries charged and generate uninterrupted power. Only drawback is that during an outage, the solar inverter trips and does not generate power, but this should happen only rarely.

Cor.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Robert Bruninga via EV
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 7:06 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Robert Bruninga; jkenny23
Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)

Thaniks.  Yes, I got it wrong.  I updated the web page .

So now a use leaf is about 2.3 power walls but a bit over half the price.
Thanks for the tip.

bob

-----Original Message-----
From: EV <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of jkenny23 via EV
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 6:31 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: jkenny23 <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)

Minor correction, your 3 year old Leaf is only 30kWH max (with less
actually usable, limited by on-board BMS). It would only take a bit of
clever reverse engineering to make use of ChaDeMo capable Leafs by
controlling the contactor to close and feeding a high voltage solar grid
tie inverter (I believe there are models that can use up to 400V already).
Then you could use up to 20kW comfortably.

--
Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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Re: FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Our grid-tied inverters just mostly shut the solar panels down when the
grid is down. As long as the sun is shining we have two special outlets
that will have power after we switch them on to power them. These special
outlets have no power when the grid is working. When the grid is back up we
then switch those outlets back off and plug freezer back into a regular
outlet. This solar module/inverter system was installed in 2014.

On Wed, Aug 14, 2019, 2:06 PM paul dove via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I thought grid tied inverters shutdown the solar panels when no grid power
> is detected.
>
>
>     On Wednesday, August 14, 2019, 12:50:01 AM CDT, Cor van de Water via
> EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  All grid tie central inverters (so, not the micro inverters) take input
> voltage above 400V so they can direct switch the AC output without
> transformers. Input is typically up to 1000V these days.
> I plan on installing solar strings of at least 400V so that I can always
> charge my EVs by direct wiring the panels to the battery, in case there is
> no grid and I need energy in my EV.
> I also have a large UPS that is intended to run with 2x 192V lead-acid
> batteries (it is an older model double conversion UPS) so I am planning to
> connect it to a Leaf pack with center tap so it can both charge the pack as
> well as island like any UPS to feed any critical loads in the house. I need
> to see if it has the power saving setting where it is not always double
> converting (wasting power) and just keeps the battery charged, but feeds
> the incoming power through until there is a power loss, then it instantly
> starts converting battery power to output without even losing the output.
> With such a setup, it would be possible to use solar in 2 ways: DC only to
> directly charge the UPS batteries (but needs overcharge protection and
> waste power as soon as batteries are full) or the usual string inverter
> generating AC to feed back into the grid and independently run the UPS to
> keep the batteries charged and generate uninterrupted power. Only drawback
> is that during an outage, the solar inverter trips and does not generate
> power, but this should happen only rarely.
>
> Cor.
>
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>
> From: Robert Bruninga via EV
> Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 7:06 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Cc: Robert Bruninga; jkenny23
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)
>
> Thaniks.  Yes, I got it wrong.  I updated the web page .
>
> So now a use leaf is about 2.3 power walls but a bit over half the price.
> Thanks for the tip.
>
> bob
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: EV <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of jkenny23 via EV
> Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 6:31 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: jkenny23 <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)
>
> Minor correction, your 3 year old Leaf is only 30kWH max (with less
> actually usable, limited by on-board BMS). It would only take a bit of
> clever reverse engineering to make use of ChaDeMo capable Leafs by
> controlling the contactor to close and feeding a high voltage solar grid
> tie inverter (I believe there are models that can use up to 400V already).
> Then you could use up to 20kW comfortably.
>
> --
> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
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Re: FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Our Sunny Boy solar inverter disconnects from the grid when the grid
goes down and then provides ~1500W to an outlet we can switch on.
Al

At 02:28 PM 8/14/2019, Bobby Keeland via EV wrote:

>Our grid-tied inverters just mostly shut the solar panels down when the
>grid is down. As long as the sun is shining we have two special outlets
>that will have power after we switch them on to power them. These special
>outlets have no power when the grid is working. When the grid is back up we
>then switch those outlets back off and plug freezer back into a regular
>outlet. This solar module/inverter system was installed in 2014.
>
>On Wed, Aug 14, 2019, 2:06 PM paul dove via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I thought grid tied inverters shutdown the solar panels when no grid power
> > is detected.
> >
   

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Re: FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
That sounds like a raw deal

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 14, 2019, at 4:28 PM, Bobby Keeland <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Our grid-tied inverters just mostly shut the solar panels down when the grid is down. As long as the sun is shining we have two special outlets that will have power after we switch them on to power them. These special outlets have no power when the grid is working. When the grid is back up we then switch those outlets back off and plug freezer back into a regular outlet. This solar module/inverter system was installed in 2014.
>
>> On Wed, Aug 14, 2019, 2:06 PM paul dove via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I thought grid tied inverters shutdown the solar panels when no grid power is detected.
>>
>>
>>     On Wednesday, August 14, 2019, 12:50:01 AM CDT, Cor van de Water via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:  
>>
>>  All grid tie central inverters (so, not the micro inverters) take input voltage above 400V so they can direct switch the AC output without transformers. Input is typically up to 1000V these days.
>> I plan on installing solar strings of at least 400V so that I can always charge my EVs by direct wiring the panels to the battery, in case there is no grid and I need energy in my EV.
>> I also have a large UPS that is intended to run with 2x 192V lead-acid batteries (it is an older model double conversion UPS) so I am planning to connect it to a Leaf pack with center tap so it can both charge the pack as well as island like any UPS to feed any critical loads in the house. I need to see if it has the power saving setting where it is not always double converting (wasting power) and just keeps the battery charged, but feeds the incoming power through until there is a power loss, then it instantly starts converting battery power to output without even losing the output.
>> With such a setup, it would be possible to use solar in 2 ways: DC only to directly charge the UPS batteries (but needs overcharge protection and waste power as soon as batteries are full) or the usual string inverter generating AC to feed back into the grid and independently run the UPS to keep the batteries charged and generate uninterrupted power. Only drawback is that during an outage, the solar inverter trips and does not generate power, but this should happen only rarely.
>>
>> Cor.
>>
>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>>
>> From: Robert Bruninga via EV
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 7:06 PM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Cc: Robert Bruninga; jkenny23
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)
>>
>> Thaniks.  Yes, I got it wrong.  I updated the web page .
>>
>> So now a use leaf is about 2.3 power walls but a bit over half the price.
>> Thanks for the tip.
>>
>> bob
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: EV <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of jkenny23 via EV
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 6:31 PM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Cc: jkenny23 <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)
>>
>> Minor correction, your 3 year old Leaf is only 30kWH max (with less
>> actually usable, limited by on-board BMS). It would only take a bit of
>> clever reverse engineering to make use of ChaDeMo capable Leafs by
>> controlling the contactor to close and feeding a high voltage solar grid
>> tie inverter (I believe there are models that can use up to 400V already).
>> Then you could use up to 20kW comfortably.
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
>> _______________________________________________
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>> _______________________________________________
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>>
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Re: FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I have been considering this too, seems silly to convert the solar panel
power to 50/60Hz AC, into the Leaf, then to DC to charge the batteries
again! I am thinking it would be better to have solar always below 360V
(lowest leaf battery voltage) and a boost converter or isolated topology
to charge into the Chardemo port. Boost would mean it does not have to
handle all the power, but I am a bit nervious of having the leaf battery
galvanically connected to the panels! Electronics would be very similar
to a Chardemo charger I guess, will have to have can bus etc, but then
you can do all kinds of other things that will help, like set the charge
level to anything you like, V to G, etc too.



On 15-Aug-19 6:33 AM, paul dove via EV wrote:

> I mean from the solar panels, disabling them.
>  
>
>      On Wednesday, August 14, 2019, 12:50:01 AM CDT, Cor van de Water via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>   All grid tie central inverters (so, not the micro inverters) take input voltage above 400V so they can direct switch the AC output without transformers. Input is typically up to 1000V these days.
> I plan on installing solar strings of at least 400V so that I can always charge my EVs by direct wiring the panels to the battery, in case there is no grid and I need energy in my EV.
> I also have a large UPS that is intended to run with 2x 192V lead-acid batteries (it is an older model double conversion UPS) so I am planning to connect it to a Leaf pack with center tap so it can both charge the pack as well as island like any UPS to feed any critical loads in the house. I need to see if it has the power saving setting where it is not always double converting (wasting power) and just keeps the battery charged, but feeds the incoming power through until there is a power loss, then it instantly starts converting battery power to output without even losing the output.
> With such a setup, it would be possible to use solar in 2 ways: DC only to directly charge the UPS batteries (but needs overcharge protection and waste power as soon as batteries are full) or the usual string inverter generating AC to feed back into the grid and independently run the UPS to keep the batteries charged and generate uninterrupted power. Only drawback is that during an outage, the solar inverter trips and does not generate power, but this should happen only rarely.
>
> Cor.
>
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>
> From: Robert Bruninga via EV
> Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 7:06 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Cc: Robert Bruninga; jkenny23
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)
>
> Thaniks.  Yes, I got it wrong.  I updated the web page .
>
> So now a use leaf is about 2.3 power walls but a bit over half the price.
> Thanks for the tip.
>
> bob
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: EV <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of jkenny23 via EV
> Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 6:31 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: jkenny23 <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)
>
> Minor correction, your 3 year old Leaf is only 30kWH max (with less
> actually usable, limited by on-board BMS). It would only take a bit of
> clever reverse engineering to make use of ChaDeMo capable Leafs by
> controlling the contactor to close and feeding a high voltage solar grid
> tie inverter (I believe there are models that can use up to 400V already).
> Then you could use up to 20kW comfortably.
>
> --
> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
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Re: FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Amen!  We all want direct DC to charge.  But so far, I have not seen any DIY
approaches.
What I woiuld love to see someone do is feed DC into their EV using their
existing J1772 EVSE.

As long as it is a 120v EVSE that does not use a tiny 12v transformer for
its internal electronics, then it should be fine.  And the car "should" be
fine because the first thing it will do is full wave rectify the DC.  And
since EVSE do not communicate voltage, but only current, then full wave
rectified 240 VAC is 330 VDC and so feeding 330 VDC directly from the panels
via the EVSE "should work fine" and charge at the 12 amp limit of the EVSE
for over 4 kW!

Every modern universal 120v device I have tried works as well on 300 VDC as
it does on 120v AC.

But who is the fool to test it on their $15k car?

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: EV <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of George Tyler via EV
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 9:21 PM
To: paul dove via EV <[hidden email]>
Cc: George Tyler <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)

I have been considering this too, seems silly to convert the solar panel
power to 50/60Hz AC, into the Leaf, then to DC to charge the batteries
again! I am thinking it would be better to have solar always below 360V
(lowest leaf battery voltage) and a boost converter or isolated topology to
charge into the Chardemo port. Boost would mean it does not have to handle
all the power, but I am a bit nervious of having the leaf battery
galvanically connected to the panels! Electronics would be very similar to a
Chardemo charger I guess, will have to have can bus etc, but then you can do
all kinds of other things that will help, like set the charge level to
anything you like, V to G, etc too.



On 15-Aug-19 6:33 AM, paul dove via EV wrote:

> I mean from the solar panels, disabling them.
>
>
>      On Wednesday, August 14, 2019, 12:50:01 AM CDT, Cor van de Water via
> EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>   All grid tie central inverters (so, not the micro inverters) take input
> voltage above 400V so they can direct switch the AC output without
> transformers. Input is typically up to 1000V these days.
> I plan on installing solar strings of at least 400V so that I can always
> charge my EVs by direct wiring the panels to the battery, in case there is
> no grid and I need energy in my EV.
> I also have a large UPS that is intended to run with 2x 192V lead-acid
> batteries (it is an older model double conversion UPS) so I am planning to
> connect it to a Leaf pack with center tap so it can both charge the pack
> as well as island like any UPS to feed any critical loads in the house. I
> need to see if it has the power saving setting where it is not always
> double converting (wasting power) and just keeps the battery charged, but
> feeds the incoming power through until there is a power loss, then it
> instantly starts converting battery power to output without even losing
> the output.
> With such a setup, it would be possible to use solar in 2 ways: DC only to
> directly charge the UPS batteries (but needs overcharge protection and
> waste power as soon as batteries are full) or the usual string inverter
> generating AC to feed back into the grid and independently run the UPS to
> keep the batteries charged and generate uninterrupted power. Only drawback
> is that during an outage, the solar inverter trips and does not generate
> power, but this should happen only rarely.
>
> Cor.
>
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>
> From: Robert Bruninga via EV
> Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 7:06 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Cc: Robert Bruninga; jkenny23
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)
>
> Thaniks.  Yes, I got it wrong.  I updated the web page .
>
> So now a use leaf is about 2.3 power walls but a bit over half the price.
> Thanks for the tip.
>
> bob
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: EV <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of jkenny23 via EV
> Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 6:31 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: jkenny23 <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)
>
> Minor correction, your 3 year old Leaf is only 30kWH max (with less
> actually usable, limited by on-board BMS). It would only take a bit of
> clever reverse engineering to make use of ChaDeMo capable Leafs by
> controlling the contactor to close and feeding a high voltage solar
> grid tie inverter (I believe there are models that can use up to 400V
> already).
> Then you could use up to 20kW comfortably.
>
> --
> Sent from:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
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>
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Re: FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Paul,
Tell me how you switch a solar panel off?
Only way I know is to throw a light blocking cover over the panels.

What the solar inverter does when it detects any anomaly in the grid is to stop sending current into the grid, effectively stopping the transfer of energy from solar to grid. Depending on the design of the inverter, it may remain powered from the solar input and ready to restart as soon as the grid is again within limits. Other designs are powered from the AC input and completely turn off when the grid goes away, despite power from the solar being present.
As a result of not using the solar power, the solar input DC voltage will climb to the OC (Open Circuit) limit, the actual voltage level is dependent on solar irradiation and temperature of the panels. In freezing conditions when the full sun suddenly appears from behind a thick cloud you get the highest output voltage and this *must* be below the max rating of the inverter (or it might blow up) so that is one of the design constraints for the solar system, one of many reasons that MPPT voltage is typically a LOT below the max voltage of the inverter.
Installers will demand that they get the OC voltage of the panels at the lowest recorded temperature for the area where they will do the installation.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: paul dove
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 11:32 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Cor van de Water; jkenny23
Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)

I thought grid tied inverters shutdown the solar panels when no grid power is detected.


On Wednesday, August 14, 2019, 12:50:01 AM CDT, Cor van de Water via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:


All grid tie central inverters (so, not the micro inverters) take input voltage above 400V so they can direct switch the AC output without transformers. Input is typically up to 1000V these days.
I plan on installing solar strings of at least 400V so that I can always charge my EVs by direct wiring the panels to the battery, in case there is no grid and I need energy in my EV.
I also have a large UPS that is intended to run with 2x 192V lead-acid batteries (it is an older model double conversion UPS) so I am planning to connect it to a Leaf pack with center tap so it can both charge the pack as well as island like any UPS to feed any critical loads in the house. I need to see if it has the power saving setting where it is not always double converting (wasting power) and just keeps the battery charged, but feeds the incoming power through until there is a power loss, then it instantly starts converting battery power to output without even losing the output.
With such a setup, it would be possible to use solar in 2 ways: DC only to directly charge the UPS batteries (but needs overcharge protection and waste power as soon as batteries are full) or the usual string inverter generating AC to feed back into the grid and independently run the UPS to keep the batteries charged and generate uninterrupted power. Only drawback is that during an outage, the solar inverter trips and does not generate power, but this should happen only rarely.

Cor.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Robert Bruninga via EV
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 7:06 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Robert Bruninga; jkenny23
Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)

Thaniks.  Yes, I got it wrong.  I updated the web page .

So now a use leaf is about 2.3 power walls but a bit over half the price.
Thanks for the tip.

bob

-----Original Message-----
From: EV <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of jkenny23 via EV
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 6:31 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: jkenny23 <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)

Minor correction, your 3 year old Leaf is only 30kWH max (with less
actually usable, limited by on-board BMS). It would only take a bit of
clever reverse engineering to make use of ChaDeMo capable Leafs by
controlling the contactor to close and feeding a high voltage solar grid
tie inverter (I believe there are models that can use up to 400V already).
Then you could use up to 20kW comfortably.

--
Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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Re: FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list


On 14/08/19 21:47, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
> Paul,
> Tell me how you switch a solar panel off?
> Only way I know is to throw a light blocking cover over the panels.
As you point out, shade is a good way purposely shut off panels.

Inverters have two safety measures that they use to stop production.

I can have too much PV power for my service entrance transformer and, as
my PV production rises, my ac voltage rises.  Most of my micro inverters
seem to shut down around 260vac; my no production voltage is 245-248.  I
have a 5kw string inverter that I have never observed shutting down due
to high voltage; I presume it's cut off voltage is around 265.

In an off grid situation, a PowerWall or similar can decide to shut down
PV production; that happens when there is insufficient demand. The
PowerWall achieves that shutdown by shifting frequency off of 60hz.  I
don't know the amount of the shift but I have observed motor driven
clocks losing or gaining time when PV is shutdown.

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Re: FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
It also stops sending current to your breaker panel thus shutting off the solar power.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 14, 2019, at 9:47 PM, Cor van de Water <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Paul,
> Tell me how you switch a solar panel off?
> Only way I know is to throw a light blocking cover over the panels.
>  
> What the solar inverter does when it detects any anomaly in the grid is to stop sending current into the grid, effectively stopping the transfer of energy from solar to grid. Depending on the design of the inverter, it may remain powered from the solar input and ready to restart as soon as the grid is again within limits. Other designs are powered from the AC input and completely turn off when the grid goes away, despite power from the solar being present.
> As a result of not using the solar power, the solar input DC voltage will climb to the OC (Open Circuit) limit, the actual voltage level is dependent on solar irradiation and temperature of the panels. In freezing conditions when the full sun suddenly appears from behind a thick cloud you get the highest output voltage and this *must* be below the max rating of the inverter (or it might blow up) so that is one of the design constraints for the solar system, one of many reasons that MPPT voltage is typically a LOT below the max voltage of the inverter.
> Installers will demand that they get the OC voltage of the panels at the lowest recorded temperature for the area where they will do the installation.
>  
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>  
> From: paul dove
> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 11:32 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Cc: Cor van de Water; jkenny23
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)
>  
> I thought grid tied inverters shutdown the solar panels when no grid power is detected.
>  
>  
> On Wednesday, August 14, 2019, 12:50:01 AM CDT, Cor van de Water via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>  
> All grid tie central inverters (so, not the micro inverters) take input voltage above 400V so they can direct switch the AC output without transformers. Input is typically up to 1000V these days.
> I plan on installing solar strings of at least 400V so that I can always charge my EVs by direct wiring the panels to the battery, in case there is no grid and I need energy in my EV.
> I also have a large UPS that is intended to run with 2x 192V lead-acid batteries (it is an older model double conversion UPS) so I am planning to connect it to a Leaf pack with center tap so it can both charge the pack as well as island like any UPS to feed any critical loads in the house. I need to see if it has the power saving setting where it is not always double converting (wasting power) and just keeps the battery charged, but feeds the incoming power through until there is a power loss, then it instantly starts converting battery power to output without even losing the output.
> With such a setup, it would be possible to use solar in 2 ways: DC only to directly charge the UPS batteries (but needs overcharge protection and waste power as soon as batteries are full) or the usual string inverter generating AC to feed back into the grid and independently run the UPS to keep the batteries charged and generate uninterrupted power. Only drawback is that during an outage, the solar inverter trips and does not generate power, but this should happen only rarely.
>
> Cor.
>
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>
> From: Robert Bruninga via EV
> Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 7:06 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Cc: Robert Bruninga; jkenny23
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)
>
> Thaniks.  Yes, I got it wrong.  I updated the web page .
>
> So now a use leaf is about 2.3 power walls but a bit over half the price.
> Thanks for the tip.
>
> bob
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: EV <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of jkenny23 via EV
> Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 6:31 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: jkenny23 <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)
>
> Minor correction, your 3 year old Leaf is only 30kWH max (with less
> actually usable, limited by on-board BMS). It would only take a bit of
> clever reverse engineering to make use of ChaDeMo capable Leafs by
> controlling the contactor to close and feeding a high voltage solar grid
> tie inverter (I believe there are models that can use up to 400V already).
> Then you could use up to 20kW comfortably.
>
> --
> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
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>
>
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Re: FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Probably be fine but I would was to see the design of the on board charger to be sure. I used an AC to DC converter to make 12v for my EV conversion. My battery voltage was 170v and it worked just fine.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 14, 2019, at 8:51 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Amen!  We all want direct DC to charge.  But so far, I have not seen any DIY
> approaches.
> What I woiuld love to see someone do is feed DC into their EV using their
> existing J1772 EVSE.
>
> As long as it is a 120v EVSE that does not use a tiny 12v transformer for
> its internal electronics, then it should be fine.  And the car "should" be
> fine because the first thing it will do is full wave rectify the DC.  And
> since EVSE do not communicate voltage, but only current, then full wave
> rectified 240 VAC is 330 VDC and so feeding 330 VDC directly from the panels
> via the EVSE "should work fine" and charge at the 12 amp limit of the EVSE
> for over 4 kW!
>
> Every modern universal 120v device I have tried works as well on 300 VDC as
> it does on 120v AC.
>
> But who is the fool to test it on their $15k car?
>
> Bob
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: EV <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of George Tyler via EV
> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 9:21 PM
> To: paul dove via EV <[hidden email]>
> Cc: George Tyler <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)
>
> I have been considering this too, seems silly to convert the solar panel
> power to 50/60Hz AC, into the Leaf, then to DC to charge the batteries
> again! I am thinking it would be better to have solar always below 360V
> (lowest leaf battery voltage) and a boost converter or isolated topology to
> charge into the Chardemo port. Boost would mean it does not have to handle
> all the power, but I am a bit nervious of having the leaf battery
> galvanically connected to the panels! Electronics would be very similar to a
> Chardemo charger I guess, will have to have can bus etc, but then you can do
> all kinds of other things that will help, like set the charge level to
> anything you like, V to G, etc too.
>
>
>
>> On 15-Aug-19 6:33 AM, paul dove via EV wrote:
>> I mean from the solar panels, disabling them.
>>
>>
>>     On Wednesday, August 14, 2019, 12:50:01 AM CDT, Cor van de Water via
>> EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>  All grid tie central inverters (so, not the micro inverters) take input
>> voltage above 400V so they can direct switch the AC output without
>> transformers. Input is typically up to 1000V these days.
>> I plan on installing solar strings of at least 400V so that I can always
>> charge my EVs by direct wiring the panels to the battery, in case there is
>> no grid and I need energy in my EV.
>> I also have a large UPS that is intended to run with 2x 192V lead-acid
>> batteries (it is an older model double conversion UPS) so I am planning to
>> connect it to a Leaf pack with center tap so it can both charge the pack
>> as well as island like any UPS to feed any critical loads in the house. I
>> need to see if it has the power saving setting where it is not always
>> double converting (wasting power) and just keeps the battery charged, but
>> feeds the incoming power through until there is a power loss, then it
>> instantly starts converting battery power to output without even losing
>> the output.
>> With such a setup, it would be possible to use solar in 2 ways: DC only to
>> directly charge the UPS batteries (but needs overcharge protection and
>> waste power as soon as batteries are full) or the usual string inverter
>> generating AC to feed back into the grid and independently run the UPS to
>> keep the batteries charged and generate uninterrupted power. Only drawback
>> is that during an outage, the solar inverter trips and does not generate
>> power, but this should happen only rarely.
>>
>> Cor.
>>
>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>>
>> From: Robert Bruninga via EV
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 7:06 PM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Cc: Robert Bruninga; jkenny23
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)
>>
>> Thaniks.  Yes, I got it wrong.  I updated the web page .
>>
>> So now a use leaf is about 2.3 power walls but a bit over half the price.
>> Thanks for the tip.
>>
>> bob
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: EV <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of jkenny23 via EV
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 6:31 PM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Cc: jkenny23 <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)
>>
>> Minor correction, your 3 year old Leaf is only 30kWH max (with less
>> actually usable, limited by on-board BMS). It would only take a bit of
>> clever reverse engineering to make use of ChaDeMo capable Leafs by
>> controlling the contactor to close and feeding a high voltage solar
>> grid tie inverter (I believe there are models that can use up to 400V
>> already).
>> Then you could use up to 20kW comfortably.
>>
>> --
>> Sent from:
>> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
>> _______________________________________________
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>>
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>>
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>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
> _______________________________________________
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> _______________________________________________
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>

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Re: FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)

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Sorry, I should proof read my posts.

I would want to see the onboard charger design.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 15, 2019, at 6:38 AM, paul dove via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Probably be fine but I would was to see the design of the on board charger to be sure. I used an AC to DC converter to make 12v for my EV conversion. My battery voltage was 170v and it worked just fine.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Aug 14, 2019, at 8:51 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Amen!  We all want direct DC to charge.  But so far, I have not seen any DIY
>> approaches.
>> What I woiuld love to see someone do is feed DC into their EV using their
>> existing J1772 EVSE.
>>
>> As long as it is a 120v EVSE that does not use a tiny 12v transformer for
>> its internal electronics, then it should be fine.  And the car "should" be
>> fine because the first thing it will do is full wave rectify the DC.  And
>> since EVSE do not communicate voltage, but only current, then full wave
>> rectified 240 VAC is 330 VDC and so feeding 330 VDC directly from the panels
>> via the EVSE "should work fine" and charge at the 12 amp limit of the EVSE
>> for over 4 kW!
>>
>> Every modern universal 120v device I have tried works as well on 300 VDC as
>> it does on 120v AC.
>>
>> But who is the fool to test it on their $15k car?
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: EV <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of George Tyler via EV
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 9:21 PM
>> To: paul dove via EV <[hidden email]>
>> Cc: George Tyler <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)
>>
>> I have been considering this too, seems silly to convert the solar panel
>> power to 50/60Hz AC, into the Leaf, then to DC to charge the batteries
>> again! I am thinking it would be better to have solar always below 360V
>> (lowest leaf battery voltage) and a boost converter or isolated topology to
>> charge into the Chardemo port. Boost would mean it does not have to handle
>> all the power, but I am a bit nervious of having the leaf battery
>> galvanically connected to the panels! Electronics would be very similar to a
>> Chardemo charger I guess, will have to have can bus etc, but then you can do
>> all kinds of other things that will help, like set the charge level to
>> anything you like, V to G, etc too.
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 15-Aug-19 6:33 AM, paul dove via EV wrote:
>>> I mean from the solar panels, disabling them.
>>>
>>>
>>>    On Wednesday, August 14, 2019, 12:50:01 AM CDT, Cor van de Water via
>>> EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> All grid tie central inverters (so, not the micro inverters) take input
>>> voltage above 400V so they can direct switch the AC output without
>>> transformers. Input is typically up to 1000V these days.
>>> I plan on installing solar strings of at least 400V so that I can always
>>> charge my EVs by direct wiring the panels to the battery, in case there is
>>> no grid and I need energy in my EV.
>>> I also have a large UPS that is intended to run with 2x 192V lead-acid
>>> batteries (it is an older model double conversion UPS) so I am planning to
>>> connect it to a Leaf pack with center tap so it can both charge the pack
>>> as well as island like any UPS to feed any critical loads in the house. I
>>> need to see if it has the power saving setting where it is not always
>>> double converting (wasting power) and just keeps the battery charged, but
>>> feeds the incoming power through until there is a power loss, then it
>>> instantly starts converting battery power to output without even losing
>>> the output.
>>> With such a setup, it would be possible to use solar in 2 ways: DC only to
>>> directly charge the UPS batteries (but needs overcharge protection and
>>> waste power as soon as batteries are full) or the usual string inverter
>>> generating AC to feed back into the grid and independently run the UPS to
>>> keep the batteries charged and generate uninterrupted power. Only drawback
>>> is that during an outage, the solar inverter trips and does not generate
>>> power, but this should happen only rarely.
>>>
>>> Cor.
>>>
>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>>>
>>> From: Robert Bruninga via EV
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 7:06 PM
>>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>>> Cc: Robert Bruninga; jkenny23
>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)
>>>
>>> Thaniks.  Yes, I got it wrong.  I updated the web page .
>>>
>>> So now a use leaf is about 2.3 power walls but a bit over half the price.
>>> Thanks for the tip.
>>>
>>> bob
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: EV <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of jkenny23 via EV
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 6:31 PM
>>> To: [hidden email]
>>> Cc: jkenny23 <[hidden email]>
>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)
>>>
>>> Minor correction, your 3 year old Leaf is only 30kWH max (with less
>>> actually usable, limited by on-board BMS). It would only take a bit of
>>> clever reverse engineering to make use of ChaDeMo capable Leafs by
>>> controlling the contactor to close and feeding a high voltage solar
>>> grid tie inverter (I believe there are models that can use up to 400V
>>> already).
>>> Then you could use up to 20kW comfortably.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sent from:
>>> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>>
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>>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>>
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>
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Re: FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
One more thing to consider is if you're feeding the on board charger DC,
you're putting all the current (albeit constant, not half-sine pulsed)
through 1 pair of diodes when normally both pairs would split the load. This
may cause heating/reliability issues long term if it wasn't designed with
enough margin. I couldn't find a proper schematic for the charger to figure
this out but there was a generic block diagram from a test report some
university/group did on the charger efficiency which showed it was a
standard switching PSU design followed by boost converter up to battery
voltage.

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