Fw: [NEVs] California’s Clean Vehicle Rebate Program

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Fw: [NEVs] California’s Clean Vehicle Rebate Program

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I agree government funding of hydrogen as a fuel is a waste of money.
Sadly, it's always taxpayer money, because the oil and gas industry
knows the idea is a loser, so won't pay to develop the technology or
infrastructure itself.  I think that could be the basis of a key
argument:  if hydrogen fuelling is such a great idea, why isn't the
'energy' industry paying to build it out themselves?  Why is government
assistance appropriate for this massively expensive build?  They didn't
need government assistance to build gas stations.

In Canada, our federal government is ponying up peanuts now for an
inter-city charging installation, at exactly the wrong time.  They're
investing in 50 kW stations just as the private sector is ramping up to
150 kW stations, with 300 kW on the horizon.  And the program that was
intended for EV charging stations is spending more on hydrogen fuelling
stations, all under the GHG reductions banner - highly misleading in the
case of hydrogen made from fossil and fracked natural gas.

If it's any help, you could point legislators' offices to my book.  The
ebook version is just US$6.

https://www.iuniverse.com/en/bookstore/bookdetails/126185-The-Emperor-s-New-Hydrogen-Economy

On 12/1/2019 8:47 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

> 1. California’s Clean Vehicle Rebate Program
>      Posted by: "Lawrence Rhodes" [hidden email] lawrencerhodes1
>      Date: Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:16 pm ((PST))
>
> https://insideevs.com/news/382176/california-amends-cvrp-rebate-program/
>
> This new round of incentives favors hydrogen with double the money.  This is a horrible waste.  If you live in California please contact your assemblyman/senator/govenor and lt. govenor. Maybe mention the hype about hydrogen or other educational articles refuting hydrogen.  Our legislators must be educated. Lawrence Rhodes

>
>


--
Darryl McMahon
Freelance Project Manager (sustainable systems)
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Re: [GGEVA] Fw: [NEVs] California’s Clean Vehicle Rebate Program

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https://efiling.energy.ca.gov/GetDocument.aspx?tn=230880&DocumentContentId=62522

Worth reading re industry and hydrogen

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019 at 7:11 AM Lawrence Rhodes [hidden email]
[GGEVA] <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> I agree government funding of hydrogen as a fuel is a waste of money.
> Sadly, it's always taxpayer money, because the oil and gas industry
> knows the idea is a loser, so won't pay to develop the technology or
> infrastructure itself.  I think that could be the basis of a key
> argument:  if hydrogen fuelling is such a great idea, why isn't the
> 'energy' industry paying to build it out themselves?  Why is government
> assistance appropriate for this massively expensive build?  They didn't
> need government assistance to build gas stations.
>
> In Canada, our federal government is ponying up peanuts now for an
> inter-city charging installation, at exactly the wrong time.  They're
> investing in 50 kW stations just as the private sector is ramping up to
> 150 kW stations, with 300 kW on the horizon.  And the program that was
> intended for EV charging stations is spending more on hydrogen fuelling
> stations, all under the GHG reductions banner - highly misleading in the
> case of hydrogen made from fossil and fracked natural gas.
>
> If it's any help, you could point legislators' offices to my book.  The
> ebook version is just US$6.
>
>
> https://www.iuniverse.com/en/bookstore/bookdetails/126185-The-Emperor-s-New-Hydrogen-Economy
>
> On 12/1/2019 8:47 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
> > 1. California’s Clean Vehicle Rebate Program
> >      Posted by: "Lawrence Rhodes" [hidden email]
> lawrencerhodes1
> >      Date: Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:16 pm ((PST))
> >
> > https://insideevs.com/news/382176/california-amends-cvrp-rebate-program/
> >
> > This new round of incentives favors hydrogen with double the money.
> This is a horrible waste.  If you live in California please contact your
> assemblyman/senator/govenor and lt. govenor. Maybe mention the hype about
> hydrogen or other educational articles refuting hydrogen.  Our legislators
> must be educated. Lawrence Rhodes
>
> >
> >
>
> --
> Darryl McMahon
> Freelance Project Manager (sustainable systems)
> __._,_.___
> ------------------------------
> Posted by: Lawrence Rhodes <[hidden email]>
> ------------------------------
> Reply via web post
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> • Reply to sender
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Re: Fw: [NEVs] California’s Clean Vehicle Rebate Program

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 All hydrogen comes from natural gas.  That is a fossil fuel.  You are full of it.  Lawrence Rhodes

    On Sunday, December 1, 2019, 1:12:42 PM PST, Mark Abramowitz <[hidden email]> wrote:  
 
 I don’t believe that government funding of hydrogen or battery zero emission technologies are a  waste - it’s needed to clean the air.

I will refer you to SIP for California to find out why funding has been needed for battery and fuel cell technologies.

I won’t get into the whether the sizing and scale of EVSE is appropriate, except to point out that this happens with all technologies.

You are incorrect when you say that hydrogen does not produce greenhouse gas reductions. The US DOE has run models which show significant reductions, though those would be US centric. I’m sure Canada has run similar numbers. The problem is that your assumptions have generally all been incorrect.

 Sorry, but I’m sure you will understand when I say that I won’t refer anyone to your book. I haven’t read it, but if what you’ve peddled here is a taste, I have a better reputation for providing people with straightforward and accurate info.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Dec 1, 2019, at 7:11 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
> I agree government funding of hydrogen as a fuel is a waste of money.
> Sadly, it's always taxpayer money, because the oil and gas industry
> knows the idea is a loser, so won't pay to develop the technology or
> infrastructure itself.  I think that could be the basis of a key
> argument:  if hydrogen fuelling is such a great idea, why isn't the
> 'energy' industry paying to build it out themselves?  Why is government
> assistance appropriate for this massively expensive build?  They didn't
> need government assistance to build gas stations.
>
> In Canada, our federal government is ponying up peanuts now for an
> inter-city charging installation, at exactly the wrong time.  They're
> investing in 50 kW stations just as the private sector is ramping up to
> 150 kW stations, with 300 kW on the horizon.  And the program that was
> intended for EV charging stations is spending more on hydrogen fuelling
> stations, all under the GHG reductions banner - highly misleading in the
> case of hydrogen made from fossil and fracked natural gas.
>
> If it's any help, you could point legislators' offices to my book.  The
> ebook version is just US$6.
>
> https://www.iuniverse.com/en/bookstore/bookdetails/126185-The-Emperor-s-New-Hydrogen-Economy
>
>> On 12/1/2019 8:47 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>
>> 1. California’s Clean Vehicle Rebate Program
>>      Posted by: "Lawrence Rhodes" [hidden email] lawrencerhodes1
>>      Date: Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:16 pm ((PST))
>>
>> https://insideevs.com/news/382176/california-amends-cvrp-rebate-program/
>>
>> This new round of incentives favors hydrogen with double the money.  This is a horrible waste.  If you live in California please contact your assemblyman/senator/govenor and lt. govenor. Maybe mention the hype about hydrogen or other educational articles refuting hydrogen.  Our legislators must be educated. Lawrence Rhodes
>
>
>
> --
> Darryl McMahon
> Freelance Project Manager (sustainable systems)
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
> INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
 
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Re: [GGEVA] Fw: [NEVs] California’s Clean Vehicle Rebate Program

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> On Dec 1, 2019, at 11:53 PM, Lawrence Rhodes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> If these enterprises are not using public funds or are funded by big oil I am all for it.

The hydrogen industry has not had much involvement by big oil until the last year or so, where you have seen Shell starting to build fueling stations.

However, the largest EVSE company in the UK was bought by Total. So if funding by big oil is your criteria, get your bicycle out.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
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Re: Fw: [NEVs] California’s Clean Vehicle Rebate Program

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
That’s what I said. Massive amounts of CO2 are produced just making the Hudrogen.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 1, 2019, at 10:53 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  All hydrogen comes from natural gas.  That is a fossil fuel.  You are full of it.  Lawrence Rhodes
>
>    On Sunday, December 1, 2019, 1:12:42 PM PST, Mark Abramowitz <[hidden email]> wrote:  
>
> I don’t believe that government funding of hydrogen or battery zero emission technologies are a  waste - it’s needed to clean the air.
>
> I will refer you to SIP for California to find out why funding has been needed for battery and fuel cell technologies.
>
> I won’t get into the whether the sizing and scale of EVSE is appropriate, except to point out that this happens with all technologies.
>
> You are incorrect when you say that hydrogen does not produce greenhouse gas reductions. The US DOE has run models which show significant reductions, though those would be US centric. I’m sure Canada has run similar numbers. The problem is that your assumptions have generally all been incorrect.
>
> Sorry, but I’m sure you will understand when I say that I won’t refer anyone to your book. I haven’t read it, but if what you’ve peddled here is a taste, I have a better reputation for providing people with straightforward and accurate info.
>
> - Mark
>
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>
>> On Dec 1, 2019, at 7:11 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree government funding of hydrogen as a fuel is a waste of money.
>> Sadly, it's always taxpayer money, because the oil and gas industry
>> knows the idea is a loser, so won't pay to develop the technology or
>> infrastructure itself.  I think that could be the basis of a key
>> argument:  if hydrogen fuelling is such a great idea, why isn't the
>> 'energy' industry paying to build it out themselves?  Why is government
>> assistance appropriate for this massively expensive build?  They didn't
>> need government assistance to build gas stations.
>>
>> In Canada, our federal government is ponying up peanuts now for an
>> inter-city charging installation, at exactly the wrong time.  They're
>> investing in 50 kW stations just as the private sector is ramping up to
>> 150 kW stations, with 300 kW on the horizon.  And the program that was
>> intended for EV charging stations is spending more on hydrogen fuelling
>> stations, all under the GHG reductions banner - highly misleading in the
>> case of hydrogen made from fossil and fracked natural gas.
>>
>> If it's any help, you could point legislators' offices to my book.  The
>> ebook version is just US$6.
>>
>> https://www.iuniverse.com/en/bookstore/bookdetails/126185-The-Emperor-s-New-Hydrogen-Economy
>>
>>>> On 12/1/2019 8:47 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>
>>> 1. California’s Clean Vehicle Rebate Program
>>>       Posted by: "Lawrence Rhodes" [hidden email] lawrencerhodes1
>>>       Date: Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:16 pm ((PST))
>>>
>>> https://insideevs.com/news/382176/california-amends-cvrp-rebate-program/
>>>
>>> This new round of incentives favors hydrogen with double the money.  This is a horrible waste.  If you live in California please contact your assemblyman/senator/govenor and lt. govenor. Maybe mention the hype about hydrogen or other educational articles refuting hydrogen.  Our legislators must be educated. Lawrence Rhodes
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Darryl McMahon
>> Freelance Project Manager (sustainable systems)
>> _______________________________________________
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
>> INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>>
>
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>

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Re: Fw: [NEVs] California’s Clean Vehicle Rebate Program

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Confusingly, this came addressed as if from Lawrence rather than Darryl.

On 12/1/19 9:11 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

>
>
> I agree government funding of hydrogen as a fuel is a waste of money.
> Sadly, it's always taxpayer money, because the oil and gas industry
> knows the idea is a loser, so won't pay to develop the technology or
> infrastructure itself.  I think that could be the basis of a key
> argument:  if hydrogen fuelling is such a great idea, why isn't the
> 'energy' industry paying to build it out themselves?  Why is government
> assistance appropriate for this massively expensive build?  They didn't
> need government assistance to build gas stations.
>
> In Canada, our federal government is ponying up peanuts now for an
> inter-city charging installation, at exactly the wrong time.  They're
> investing in 50 kW stations just as the private sector is ramping up to
> 150 kW stations, with 300 kW on the horizon.  And the program that was
> intended for EV charging stations is spending more on hydrogen fuelling
> stations, all under the GHG reductions banner - highly misleading in the
> case of hydrogen made from fossil and fracked natural gas.
>
> If it's any help, you could point legislators' offices to my book.  The
> ebook version is just US$6.
> https://www.iuniverse.com/en/bookstore/bookdetails/126185-The-Emperor-s-New-Hydrogen-Economy

I first got a copy of your book only a couple of years ago.  I very much
appreciate the enlightenment it offers.  It is difficult to believe that
hydrogen proponents remain.

With the above post, I had hope that a revised version was being offered
that covers more recent times and developments.

Old or new, I appreciate the work you have done.
_______________________________________________
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Re: Fw: [NEVs] California’s Clean Vehicle Rebate Program

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Mark, last time a discussion like this came up, I pressed you for exact
references to back up your claims. You failed. Why are you pushing this
again ? I'm truly glad you are excited about new technologies and I
believe there are places for hydrogen as a fuel, just not for EVs.
Peri

------ Original Message ------
From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>; "Mark
Abramowitz" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 01-Dec-19 8:53:29 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fw: [NEVs] California’s Clean Vehicle Rebate Program

>  All hydrogen comes from natural gas.  That is a fossil fuel.  You are full of it.  Lawrence Rhodes
>
>     On Sunday, December 1, 2019, 1:12:42 PM PST, Mark Abramowitz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  I don’t believe that government funding of hydrogen or battery zero emission technologies are a  waste - it’s needed to clean the air.
>
>I will refer you to SIP for California to find out why funding has been needed for battery and fuel cell technologies.
>
>I won’t get into the whether the sizing and scale of EVSE is appropriate, except to point out that this happens with all technologies.
>
>You are incorrect when you say that hydrogen does not produce greenhouse gas reductions. The US DOE has run models which show significant reductions, though those would be US centric. I’m sure Canada has run similar numbers. The problem is that your assumptions have generally all been incorrect.
>
>  Sorry, but I’m sure you will understand when I say that I won’t refer anyone to your book. I haven’t read it, but if what you’ve peddled here is a taste, I have a better reputation for providing people with straightforward and accurate info.
>
>- Mark
>
>Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>
>>  On Dec 1, 2019, at 7:11 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>  I agree government funding of hydrogen as a fuel is a waste of money.
>>  Sadly, it's always taxpayer money, because the oil and gas industry
>>  knows the idea is a loser, so won't pay to develop the technology or
>>  infrastructure itself.  I think that could be the basis of a key
>>  argument:  if hydrogen fuelling is such a great idea, why isn't the
>>  'energy' industry paying to build it out themselves?  Why is government
>>  assistance appropriate for this massively expensive build?  They didn't
>>  need government assistance to build gas stations.
>>
>>  In Canada, our federal government is ponying up peanuts now for an
>>  inter-city charging installation, at exactly the wrong time.  They're
>>  investing in 50 kW stations just as the private sector is ramping up to
>>  150 kW stations, with 300 kW on the horizon.  And the program that was
>>  intended for EV charging stations is spending more on hydrogen fuelling
>>  stations, all under the GHG reductions banner - highly misleading in the
>>  case of hydrogen made from fossil and fracked natural gas.
>>
>>  If it's any help, you could point legislators' offices to my book.  The
>>  ebook version is just US$6.
>>
>>  https://www.iuniverse.com/en/bookstore/bookdetails/126185-The-Emperor-s-New-Hydrogen-Economy
>>
>>>  On 12/1/2019 8:47 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>
>>>  1. California’s Clean Vehicle Rebate Program
>>>       Posted by: "Lawrence Rhodes" [hidden email] lawrencerhodes1
>>>       Date: Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:16 pm ((PST))
>>>
>>>  https://insideevs.com/news/382176/california-amends-cvrp-rebate-program/
>>>
>>>  This new round of incentives favors hydrogen with double the money.  This is a horrible waste.  If you live in California please contact your assemblyman/senator/govenor and lt. govenor. Maybe mention the hype about hydrogen or other educational articles refuting hydrogen.  Our legislators must be educated. Lawrence Rhodes
>>
>>
>>
>>  --
>>  Darryl McMahon
>>  Freelance Project Manager (sustainable systems)
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>  ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
>>  INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>  Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>>
>
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Re: [GGEVA] Fw: [NEVs] California’s Clean Vehicle Rebate Program

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
And, look who are the members:
https://www.californiahydrogen.org/aboutus/chbc-members/
- compressed gas companies
- auto companies
- Hydrogen companies
- Fuel cell & fittngs companies
- Various energy companies
...

Peri

------ Original Message ------
From: "sr via EV" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Cc: "sr" <[hidden email]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<[hidden email]>
Sent: 01-Dec-19 11:39:18 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] [GGEVA] Fw: [NEVs] California’s Clean Vehicle Rebate
Program

>https://efiling.energy.ca.gov/GetDocument.aspx?tn=230880&DocumentContentId=62522
>
>Worth reading re industry and hydrogen
>
>On Sun, Dec 1, 2019 at 7:11 AM Lawrence Rhodes [hidden email]
>[GGEVA] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  I agree government funding of hydrogen as a fuel is a waste of money.
>>  Sadly, it's always taxpayer money, because the oil and gas industry
>>  knows the idea is a loser, so won't pay to develop the technology or
>>  infrastructure itself.  I think that could be the basis of a key
>>  argument:  if hydrogen fuelling is such a great idea, why isn't the
>>  'energy' industry paying to build it out themselves?  Why is government
>>  assistance appropriate for this massively expensive build?  They didn't
>>  need government assistance to build gas stations.
>>
>>  In Canada, our federal government is ponying up peanuts now for an
>>  inter-city charging installation, at exactly the wrong time.  They're
>>  investing in 50 kW stations just as the private sector is ramping up to
>>  150 kW stations, with 300 kW on the horizon.  And the program that was
>>  intended for EV charging stations is spending more on hydrogen fuelling
>>  stations, all under the GHG reductions banner - highly misleading in the
>>  case of hydrogen made from fossil and fracked natural gas.
>>
>>  If it's any help, you could point legislators' offices to my book.  The
>>  ebook version is just US$6.
>>
>>
>>  https://www.iuniverse.com/en/bookstore/bookdetails/126185-The-Emperor-s-New-Hydrogen-Economy
>>
>>  On 12/1/2019 8:47 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>
>>  > 1. California’s Clean Vehicle Rebate Program
>>  >      Posted by: "Lawrence Rhodes" [hidden email]
>>  lawrencerhodes1
>>  >      Date: Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:16 pm ((PST))
>>  >
>>  > https://insideevs.com/news/382176/california-amends-cvrp-rebate-program/
>>  >
>>  > This new round of incentives favors hydrogen with double the money.
>>  This is a horrible waste.  If you live in California please contact your
>>  assemblyman/senator/govenor and lt. govenor. Maybe mention the hype about
>>  hydrogen or other educational articles refuting hydrogen.  Our legislators
>>  must be educated. Lawrence Rhodes
>>
>>  >
>>  >
>>
>>  --
>>  Darryl McMahon
>>  Freelance Project Manager (sustainable systems)
>>  __._,_.___
>>  ------------------------------
>>  Posted by: Lawrence Rhodes <[hidden email]>
>>  ------------------------------
>>  Reply via web post
>>  <https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GGEVA/conversations/messages/6095;_ylc=X3oDMTJxNGo4dWJmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE0NjE5MzU5BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEzNjM4MgRtc2dJZAM2MDk1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTU3NTIxMzA3Ng--?act=reply&messageNum=6095>
>>  • Reply to sender
>>  <[hidden email]?subject=Re%3A%20Fw%3A%20%5BNEVs%5D%20California%E2%80%99s%20Clean%20Vehicle%20Rebate%20Program>
>>  • Reply to group
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>>
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Re: Fw: [NEVs] California’s Clean Vehicle Rebate Program

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
The claim that all hydrogen is not from natural gas?

Someone else just posted some good examples of recent projects.

Just to be clear - I’m not “pushing” anything. I just feel the need to respond to some posts that make false claims or statements.

I believe in both kinds of EV’s, battery electric and fuel cell. Both are *essential* to meet air quality standards, a journey I’ve spent almost 40 years on, and efforts to derail hydrogen are counter to the need for clean air.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Dec 2, 2019, at 7:31 AM, Peri Hartman via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Mark, last time a discussion like this came up, I pressed you for exact references to back up your claims. You failed. Why are you pushing this again ? I'm truly glad you are excited about new technologies and I believe there are places for hydrogen as a fuel, just not for EVs.
> Peri
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>; "Mark Abramowitz" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: 01-Dec-19 8:53:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fw: [NEVs] California’s Clean Vehicle Rebate Program
>
>> All hydrogen comes from natural gas.  That is a fossil fuel.  You are full of it.  Lawrence Rhodes
>>
>>    On Sunday, December 1, 2019, 1:12:42 PM PST, Mark Abramowitz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I don’t believe that government funding of hydrogen or battery zero emission technologies are a  waste - it’s needed to clean the air.
>>
>> I will refer you to SIP for California to find out why funding has been needed for battery and fuel cell technologies.
>>
>> I won’t get into the whether the sizing and scale of EVSE is appropriate, except to point out that this happens with all technologies.
>>
>> You are incorrect when you say that hydrogen does not produce greenhouse gas reductions. The US DOE has run models which show significant reductions, though those would be US centric. I’m sure Canada has run similar numbers. The problem is that your assumptions have generally all been incorrect.
>>
>> Sorry, but I’m sure you will understand when I say that I won’t refer anyone to your book. I haven’t read it, but if what you’ve peddled here is a taste, I have a better reputation for providing people with straightforward and accurate info.
>>
>> - Mark
>>
>> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>>
>>> On Dec 1, 2019, at 7:11 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree government funding of hydrogen as a fuel is a waste of money.
>>> Sadly, it's always taxpayer money, because the oil and gas industry
>>> knows the idea is a loser, so won't pay to develop the technology or
>>> infrastructure itself.  I think that could be the basis of a key

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Re: [GGEVA] Fw: [NEVs] California’s Clean Vehicle Rebate Program

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I’m glad that you noticed that, and hope that you noticed that no “big oil” companies are members.

That should give you a hint of the accuracy of brucep’s frequent railing about hydrogen and big oil.

The members shouldn’t be surprising, exactly what you would expect from a business council. These are the companies making the clean air solutions positions. You will likely find something similar for a BEV group.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Dec 2, 2019, at 7:38 AM, Peri Hartman via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> And, look who are the members:
> https://www.californiahydrogen.org/aboutus/chbc-members/
> - compressed gas companies
> - auto companies
> - Hydrogen companies
> - Fuel cell & fittngs companies
> - Various energy companies
> ....
>
> Peri
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "sr via EV" <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: "sr" <[hidden email]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: 01-Dec-19 11:39:18 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] [GGEVA] Fw: [NEVs] California’s Clean Vehicle Rebate Program
>
>> https://efiling.energy.ca.gov/GetDocument.aspx?tn=230880&DocumentContentId=62522
>>
>> Worth reading re industry and hydrogen
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 1, 2019 at 7:11 AM Lawrence Rhodes [hidden email]
>> [GGEVA] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree government funding of hydrogen as a fuel is a waste of money.
>>> Sadly, it's always taxpayer money, because the oil and gas industry
>>> knows the idea is a loser, so won't pay to develop the technology or
>>> infrastructure itself.  I think that could be the basis of a key
>>> argument:  if hydrogen fuelling is such a great idea, why isn't the
>>> 'energy' industry paying to build it out themselves?  Why is government
>>> assistance appropriate for this massively expensive build?  They didn't
>>> need government assistance to build gas stations.
>>>

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Re: [GGEVA] Fw: [NEVs] California’s Clean Vehicle Rebate Program

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Not surprising. But also not surprising that they would give a positive
spin on something that would fail on its own. You've said as much: "give
a level playing field". We give handicaps to those who can't compete on
their own in order to have a more balanced match. Hydrogen for cars
can't stand on it's own. The infrastructure is more expensive than for
EVs, the storage of hydrogen takes more space, the production of
hydrogen costs too much, ...

It's one thing to provide incentives and subsidies to help ease startup
risks. It's another to "level the playing field."

Peri

------ Original Message ------
From: "Mark Abramowitz" <[hidden email]>
To: "Peri Hartman" <[hidden email]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 02-Dec-19 8:46:34 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] [GGEVA] Fw: [NEVs] California’s Clean Vehicle Rebate
Program

>I’m glad that you noticed that, and hope that you noticed that no “big oil” companies are members.
>
>That should give you a hint of the accuracy of brucep’s frequent railing about hydrogen and big oil.
>
>The members shouldn’t be surprising, exactly what you would expect from a business council. These are the companies making the clean air solutions positions. You will likely find something similar for a BEV group.
>
>- Mark
>
>Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>
>>  On Dec 2, 2019, at 7:38 AM, Peri Hartman via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>  And, look who are the members:
>>  https://www.californiahydrogen.org/aboutus/chbc-members/
>>  - compressed gas companies
>>  - auto companies
>>  - Hydrogen companies
>>  - Fuel cell & fittngs companies
>>  - Various energy companies
>>  ....
>>
>>  Peri
>>
>>  ------ Original Message ------
>>  From: "sr via EV" <[hidden email]>
>>  To: [hidden email]
>>  Cc: "sr" <[hidden email]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
>>  Sent: 01-Dec-19 11:39:18 AM
>>  Subject: Re: [EVDL] [GGEVA] Fw: [NEVs] California’s Clean Vehicle Rebate Program
>>
>>>  https://efiling.energy.ca.gov/GetDocument.aspx?tn=230880&DocumentContentId=62522
>>>
>>>  Worth reading re industry and hydrogen
>>>
>>>  On Sun, Dec 1, 2019 at 7:11 AM Lawrence Rhodes [hidden email]
>>>  [GGEVA] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  I agree government funding of hydrogen as a fuel is a waste of money.
>>>>  Sadly, it's always taxpayer money, because the oil and gas industry
>>>>  knows the idea is a loser, so won't pay to develop the technology or
>>>>  infrastructure itself.  I think that could be the basis of a key
>>>>  argument:  if hydrogen fuelling is such a great idea, why isn't the
>>>>  'energy' industry paying to build it out themselves?  Why is government
>>>>  assistance appropriate for this massively expensive build?  They didn't
>>>>  need government assistance to build gas stations.
>>>>
>

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Re; Liar, Liar pants on fire: Re: [GGEVA] Fw: [NEVs] California’s Clean Vehicle Rebate Program

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
 However government money was spent and that means taxpayer money has been spent on hydrogen.  Shell also spends money cultivating students that build fuel cell & gas vehicles that get a thousand miles per gallon. Here is one that works and built by students. If you are really interested in the best solution I feel that this is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilWurJvdjj4  this vehicle uses batteries as the storage medium. If it used a fuel cell it would cut the range by 3/4. So instead of 800 km range the range would be 200 miles on a full charge. using fool cells.Lawrence Rhodes

    On Monday, December 2, 2019, 3:59:21 AM PST, Mark Abramowitz <[hidden email]> wrote:  
 
 

> On Dec 1, 2019, at 11:53 PM, Lawrence Rhodes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> If these enterprises are not using public funds or are funded by big oil I am all for it.

The hydrogen industry has not had much involvement by big oil until the last year or so, where you have seen Shell starting to build fueling stations.

However, the largest EVSE company in the UK was bought by Total. So if funding by big oil is your criteria, get your bicycle out.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone  
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Re: [GGEVA] Fw: [NEVs] California’s Clean Vehicle Rebate Program

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list


On 12/2/19 9:38 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> And, look who are the members:
> https://www.californiahydrogen.org/aboutus/chbc-members/
> - compressed gas companies
> - auto companies
> - Hydrogen companies
> - Fuel cell & fittngs companies
> - Various energy companies

Along those lines, here is an amusing story linked to by finance.yahoo:

https://oilprice.com/Alternative-Energy/Fuel-Cells/Teslas-Largest-Competitor-Is-Hidden-In-Plain-Sight.html

Slant city.
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Re: [GGEVA] Fw: [NEVs] California’s Clean Vehicle Rebate Program

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You misunderstood my comment.

It was to give a more level playing field with the battery electrics. Remember, the FCEVs are behind BEVs in commercialization.

Both BEVs and FCEVs have needed subsidies - fortunately BEVs are starting to need them less.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Dec 2, 2019, at 8:54 AM, Peri Hartman via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Not surprising. But also not surprising that they would give a positive spin on something that would fail on its own. You've said as much: "give a level playing field". We give handicaps to those who can't compete on their own in order to have a more balanced match. Hydrogen for cars can't stand on it's own. The infrastructure is more expensive than for EVs, the storage of hydrogen takes more space, the production of hydrogen costs too much, ...
>
> It's one thing to provide incentives and subsidies to help ease startup risks. It's another to "level the playing field."
>
> Peri
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Mark Abramowitz" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Peri Hartman" <[hidden email]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: 02-Dec-19 8:46:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] [GGEVA] Fw: [NEVs] California’s Clean Vehicle Rebate Program
>
>> I’m glad that you noticed that, and hope that you noticed that no “big oil” companies are members.
>>
>> That should give you a hint of the accuracy of brucep’s frequent railing about hydrogen and big oil.
>>
>> The members shouldn’t be surprising, exactly what you would expect from a business council. These are the companies making the clean air solutions positions. You will likely find something similar for a BEV group.
>>
>> - Mark
>>
>> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>>
>>> On Dec 2, 2019, at 7:38 AM, Peri Hartman via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> And, look who are the members:
>>> https://www.californiahydrogen.org/aboutus/chbc-members/
>>> - compressed gas companies
>>> - auto companies
>>> - Hydrogen companies
>>> - Fuel cell & fittngs companies
>>> - Various energy companies
>>> ....
>>>
>>> Peri
>>>
>>> ------ Original Message ------
>>> From: "sr via EV" <[hidden email]>
>>> To: [hidden email]
>>> Cc: "sr" <[hidden email]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
>>> Sent: 01-Dec-19 11:39:18 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] [GGEVA] Fw: [NEVs] California’s Clean Vehicle Rebate Program
>>>
>>>> https://efiling.energy.ca.gov/GetDocument.aspx?tn=230880&DocumentContentId=62522
>>>>
>>>> Worth reading re industry and hydrogen
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Dec 1, 2019 at 7:11 AM Lawrence Rhodes [hidden email]
>>>> [GGEVA] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree government funding of hydrogen as a fuel is a waste of money.
>>>>> Sadly, it's always taxpayer money, because the oil and gas industry
>>>>> knows the idea is a loser, so won't pay to develop the technology or
>>>>> infrastructure itself.  I think that could be the basis of a key
>>>>> argument:  if hydrogen fuelling is such a great idea, why isn't the
>>>>> 'energy' industry paying to build it out themselves?  Why is government
>>>>> assistance appropriate for this massively expensive build?  They didn't
>>>>> need government assistance to build gas stations.
>>>>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>

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Re: California’s Clean Vehicle Rebate Program

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I'm hesitant to say anything in this thread because many years ago the EVDL
voted to downplay hydrogen, despite the fact that it's mentioned in our
original charter.  

Also, a lot of what I say won't register for the True Believers.  They'll
dismiss it out of hand.  Nobody can shake their convictions.  There's not
much  I can do about that.  

But I think something needs to be said.  BEVs have made huge strides in the
last 20 years, while progress for FCEVs has been slower.  

Even when FCEVs run on hydrogen-stored electrictiy from renewable sources,
BEVs use the same electricity more efficiently. That's easily documented.  
More steps from electricity source to motor, more losses.  Simple physics.

And then there's infrastructure.  BEVs have a commanding and probably
unassailable lead.  Tesla has 1,636 supercharger stations in North America,
and that doesn't even count the non-Tesla EVSEs.  

By comparison, fueling infrastructure for FCEVs is pitiful: just 38
stations, all in California.  Good luck driving your FCEV coast to coast.

Yep, FCEVs can be fueled faster, but not by much any more.  DC charging is
now reaching 350kW.  That can fill a big-battery Tesla S to 80% in less than
14 minutes.  

Sure, we could make FCEVs more practical by throwing hundreds of billions of
dollars at renewable energy H2 production and refueling infrastructure.  

The question is, why should we do that when BEVs are viable and affordable
NOW, are already contributing to cleaner air and lower carbon emissions, and
are simpler and more efficient than FCEVs?  

Seriously, what do FCEVs really offer that's better than what BEVs are
already giving us?  What exactly justifies taking resources away from BEVs
and giving them to FCEVs?  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: California’s Clean Vehicle Rebate Program

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
> Seriously, what do FCEVs really offer that's better than what BEVs are
> already giving us?  What exactly justifies taking resources away from BEVs
> and giving them to FCEVs?

Well said, David.

I think the answer is that FCEVs have a few advantages that suit them
for certain niche applications. They've been used in spacecraft, in
factories where a source of H2 is already available, and in various
buses and fleet vehicles that operate on a fixed route.

I believe we should be doing R&D on *all* technologies. We simply aren't
that good at picking winners! So we can't "put all our eggs in one
basket" and assume that we picked the right one.

I'm not a big fan of subsidies. I would rather not have someone's "thumb
on the scale" to favor one technology to the disadvantage of others. But
in our present situation, the oil industry already has huge subsidies on
their side; so it makes a certain amount of sense to have matching
subsidies to support other technologies. That means EVs... as well as FCEVs.

The challenge is to try to keep the playing field level. That is
extremely difficult in our dysfunctional partisan situation.

Imagine what (say) football would look like if there were only two
teams. And, these two teams were the ones that set the rules for each game!

Lee

--
ICEs have the same problem as lightbulbs. Why innovate and make
better ones when the current ones burn out often enough to keep
you in business? -- Hunter Cressall
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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