Fwd: Self diming street lights

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Fwd: Self diming street lights

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
As Day becomes the new night for cheap electricity and night will become
the most expensive, here is a brilliant idea in Norway.

Have the lights dim to 20% when no cars or people are driving by.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1114623_how-serious-
is-norway-about-climate-change-so-much-that-its-streetlights-self-dim

ANd if you watch the video they mention one of my concerns about a failed
radar on any given pole is mitigated because all the lights also talk to
each other by RF so that they tell the other lights what is coming.

Neat!  Saves 80% of light power while still providing full illumination
when someone needs it.

I am generally upset at night sky pollution due to excessive night
lighting.  But this is a step in the right direction.

Remember what our scities look like at night from the air?  What a waste of
energy...

Bob
WB4APr
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Re: Fwd: Self diming street lights

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
> here is a brilliant idea in Norway.
> Have the lights dim to 20% when no cars or people are driving by.
> Neat!  Saves 80% of light power while still providing full illumination
> when someone needs it.

It *is* a good idea. Street lights are a good first application, because
they are expensive enough to afford the extra hardware, and the "bean
counters" that buy them are fanatically interested in minimizing
operating cost.

I had an opportunity to work with the legendary Hans Camenzind (designer
of the 555 timer, among other things). He felt we were going in the
wrong direction with integrated circuits. We were making them ever more
complicated, to do BIG things. What they *should* be doing is making
them simpler, to do SMALL things very well. For example, a pocket
calculator, which has exactly one chip. Thus they are produced by the
billions, easy to use, run on solar power, sell for $1, and work for
decades.

But today's designers aren't looking for such applications. They spend
all their time designing smartphones and computers, massively complex
devices that cost a lot, eat lots of power, are hard to learn, full of
bugs, and only last a few years.

One of his "missing products" was the smart bulb. It basically detects
people, and is on when they are near, and dims progressively as they
move away. As you move about your house, the lights are only on where
*you* are. Not like cheap motion-detecting lamps, these would smoothly
dim and brighten so the illumination where you are says about the same.

Another was the smart doorknob. Grab it, and it recognizes you and lets
you in (or locks if you're the wrong person).

Designers occasionally work on such devices, but wind up with massively
complex expensive solutions. The key KISS -- Keep It Simple, Stupid. You
don't want a light bulb that has an IP address, requires a network
connection, needs a linux computer somewhere to run it, and an IT person
to program it. You have to be able to just screw it in, and you're done.

Designing complex things is easy. Designing simple things is HARD!
--
Whether we or our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all
our deals and decisions, and she has more votes, a longer memory,
and a sterner sense of justice than we do. -- Wendell Berry
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: Fwd: Self diming street lights

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
The lights are to stop crime or they were originally

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 7, 2018, at 12:37 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> As Day becomes the new night for cheap electricity and night will become
> the most expensive, here is a brilliant idea in Norway.
>
> Have the lights dim to 20% when no cars or people are driving by.
>
> https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1114623_how-serious-
> is-norway-about-climate-change-so-much-that-its-streetlights-self-dim
>
> ANd if you watch the video they mention one of my concerns about a failed
> radar on any given pole is mitigated because all the lights also talk to
> each other by RF so that they tell the other lights what is coming.
>
> Neat!  Saves 80% of light power while still providing full illumination
> when someone needs it.
>
> I am generally upset at night sky pollution due to excessive night
> lighting.  But this is a step in the right direction.
>
> Remember what our scities look like at night from the air?  What a waste of
> energy...
>
> Bob
> WB4APr
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>

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Re: Fwd: Self diming street lights

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
For many years, the airport Schiphol in the hall with luggage belts and
the adjacent waiting area for pickup
have been using a system like this, where the light follows movements.
The only consequence is that if you sit down to wait for your luggage
and there is nobody moving near you,
then the light dims and you are in what feels like twilight while moving
passengers "take the light with them".
Modern LED bulbs make dimming trivial and efficient, old style
incandescent could be dimmed but lost
efficiency much faster than that the power dropped, in other words:
consumption did not go down much,
only light output. Halogen lights cannot normally be dimmed continuously
without seriously affecting life, as their
extended life and increased efficiency depend on the bulb's filament
being hot enough to deposit evaporated
metal back, picked up from the colder glass by the halogen gass.
(Note that modern incandescents often are a small plug-in halogen bulb
welded to two wires inside the larger glass "pear".)

The trick in having a comfortable amount of light without the on/off
behavior of the security motion-sensing lights
is simply that the (analog) output of the motion sensor should control
the LED dimming, after going through a filter
that has a fast attack and slow decay time delay (RC filter plus diode)
so the light brightens quickly when you move
nearby but then takes a long time to gradually reduce brightness
afterwards. You can choose whether it should dim
to a sustained light level or that it falls all the way back to dark,
that way you don't even need to use light switches which
can be a welcome relief for disabled who need to adapt an existing home
to reduced mobility without the financial
burden to retrofit all lights to remote control systems.

Note, especially in the short run, it might be easier to create some
fixtures that have this function with built-in motion
sensors and dimmers and can take a regular dimmable (LED) bulb, before
attempting to make LED bulbs with
this function.

One issue with building it into the bulb itself is the
obstruction/orientation problem. Shades and frosting from existing
fixtures can make it difficult for a motion-sensing bulb to detect your
presence. And you might want to detect motion
only in certain directions to avoid movement outside or in an adjacent
room to trigger the light, but the screw-in thread
of regular bulbs make it unpredictable in which direction it will
detect. This can be solved with a movable blinder on the
bulb, but that makes it prone to installation errors.

Still interesting ways to solve efficiency questions.
To tie this back to EVs: my current electric truck uses one motor
winding for boost inductor and one motor inverter IGBT
as switch, despite it only supporting 3kW charging rate which means that
the current is below 10 Amps and it would be
much more efficient to use a dedicated switch and inductor. Just
magnetizing the whole motor costs power, losses in the
large IGBT are high and because of the high losses in motor and
controller, the water pump must be running and after
charging a while even the radiator fan is coming on because the inverter
is getting warm enough to trigger this.

I am planning to replace this inefficient charger (which can lose as
much as 50% of the energy when charging from 110V)
with a simple PFC (Power Factor Correction) input stage of a server
power supply and this should bring my charger
efficiency back up over 95%, requiring only a small fan to cool the
inductor and switching transistor. When I use two
PFC front ends from two supplies then I can even select whether to
charge at 6kW as most public chargers allow, or to
charge at the current 3kW rate that can be handled from a 240V source at
about 12 Amps or even from 110V outlet and
the 12A max inlet current of the PFC front end will limit the charging
to a safe ~1400 Watts.
I may even go as far as controlling the max AC current that is drawn,
which then can take the control from the pilot signal
in a J1772 plug.
Cor.

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2018 11:19 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Lee Hart
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fwd: Self diming street lights

Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
> here is a brilliant idea in Norway.
> Have the lights dim to 20% when no cars or people are driving by.
> Neat!  Saves 80% of light power while still providing full
> illumination when someone needs it.

It *is* a good idea. Street lights are a good first application, because
they are expensive enough to afford the extra hardware, and the "bean
counters" that buy them are fanatically interested in minimizing
operating cost.

I had an opportunity to work with the legendary Hans Camenzind (designer
of the 555 timer, among other things). He felt we were going in the
wrong direction with integrated circuits. We were making them ever more
complicated, to do BIG things. What they *should* be doing is making
them simpler, to do SMALL things very well. For example, a pocket
calculator, which has exactly one chip. Thus they are produced by the
billions, easy to use, run on solar power, sell for $1, and work for
decades.

But today's designers aren't looking for such applications. They spend
all their time designing smartphones and computers, massively complex
devices that cost a lot, eat lots of power, are hard to learn, full of
bugs, and only last a few years.

One of his "missing products" was the smart bulb. It basically detects
people, and is on when they are near, and dims progressively as they
move away. As you move about your house, the lights are only on where
*you* are. Not like cheap motion-detecting lamps, these would smoothly
dim and brighten so the illumination where you are says about the same.

Another was the smart doorknob. Grab it, and it recognizes you and lets
you in (or locks if you're the wrong person).

Designers occasionally work on such devices, but wind up with massively
complex expensive solutions. The key KISS -- Keep It Simple, Stupid. You
don't want a light bulb that has an IP address, requires a network
connection, needs a linux computer somewhere to run it, and an IT person
to program it. You have to be able to just screw it in, and you're done.

Designing complex things is easy. Designing simple things is HARD!
--
Whether we or our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all our
deals and decisions, and she has more votes, a longer memory, and a
sterner sense of justice than we do. -- Wendell Berry
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

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Re: Fwd: Self diming street lights

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
> I had an opportunity to work with the legendary Hans Camenzind (designer
of the 555 timer, among other things)

I still use 555 chips as the single most critical chip in our student
CUBESAT designs.
It is a fail-safe watch dog timer to CYCLE power to the CPU if it doesnt
get tickled!

I thank him frequently. THanks for the story.  Bob, WB4APR


On Sun, Jan 7, 2018 at 2:18 PM, Lee Hart via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
>
>> here is a brilliant idea in Norway.
>> Have the lights dim to 20% when no cars or people are driving by.
>> Neat!  Saves 80% of light power while still providing full illumination
>> when someone needs it.
>>
>
> It *is* a good idea. Street lights are a good first application, because
> they are expensive enough to afford the extra hardware, and the "bean
> counters" that buy them are fanatically interested in minimizing operating
> cost.
>
> I had an opportunity to work with the legendary Hans Camenzind (designer
> of the 555 timer, among other things). He felt we were going in the wrong
> direction with integrated circuits. We were making them ever more
> complicated, to do BIG things. What they *should* be doing is making them
> simpler, to do SMALL things very well. For example, a pocket calculator,
> which has exactly one chip. Thus they are produced by the billions, easy to
> use, run on solar power, sell for $1, and work for decades.
>
> But today's designers aren't looking for such applications. They spend all
> their time designing smartphones and computers, massively complex devices
> that cost a lot, eat lots of power, are hard to learn, full of bugs, and
> only last a few years.
>
> One of his "missing products" was the smart bulb. It basically detects
> people, and is on when they are near, and dims progressively as they move
> away. As you move about your house, the lights are only on where *you* are.
> Not like cheap motion-detecting lamps, these would smoothly dim and
> brighten so the illumination where you are says about the same.
>
> Another was the smart doorknob. Grab it, and it recognizes you and lets
> you in (or locks if you're the wrong person).
>
> Designers occasionally work on such devices, but wind up with massively
> complex expensive solutions. The key KISS -- Keep It Simple, Stupid. You
> don't want a light bulb that has an IP address, requires a network
> connection, needs a linux computer somewhere to run it, and an IT person to
> program it. You have to be able to just screw it in, and you're done.
>
> Designing complex things is easy. Designing simple things is HARD!
> --
> Whether we or our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all
> our deals and decisions, and she has more votes, a longer memory,
> and a sterner sense of justice than we do. -- Wendell Berry
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=e+Hart,+814+8th+Ave+N,+Sartell&entry=gmail&source=g>MN
> 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group
> /NEDRA)
>
>
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Re: Fwd: Self diming street lights

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I agree. Superficially, dimming street lights sound "brilliant". But to
do it right would be very complicated. It's easy to detect motion. But
it's difficult to detect if someone is lurking in the bushes. Also, the
light from the lamps illuminates front yards to some degree. Would the
motion detectors detect movement in those areas? What if someone moves
very slowly. Will they outsmart the detector? Finally, how would it feel
on the inside of your house or apartment if the lighting outside was
going from bright to dim to bright... All of these issues may be
solvable. I'm just saying this is complicated.

Peri

------ Original Message ------
From: "paul dove via EV" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "paul dove" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 07-Jan-18 1:43:52 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fwd: Self diming street lights

>The lights are to stop crime or they were originally
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>>On Jan 7, 2018, at 12:37 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV
>><[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>As Day becomes the new night for cheap electricity and night will
>>become
>>the most expensive, here is a brilliant idea in Norway.
>>
>>Have the lights dim to 20% when no cars or people are driving by.
>>
>>https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1114623_how-serious-
>>is-norway-about-climate-change-so-much-that-its-streetlights-self-dim
>>
>>ANd if you watch the video they mention one of my concerns about a
>>failed
>>radar on any given pole is mitigated because all the lights also talk
>>to
>>each other by RF so that they tell the other lights what is coming.
>>
>>Neat!  Saves 80% of light power while still providing full
>>illumination
>>when someone needs it.
>>
>>I am generally upset at night sky pollution due to excessive night
>>lighting.  But this is a step in the right direction.
>>
>>Remember what our scities look like at night from the air?  What a
>>waste of
>>energy...
>>
>>Bob
>>WB4APr
>>-------------- next part --------------
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>>_______________________________________________
>>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

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Re: Fwd: Self diming street lights

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Id like to see data on how much crime is prevented by having streetlights
almost bright as day.

I'd think the opposite.  A thief would have to use a flashlight to be
effective, adn that would make him more visible than the stupid approach to
bright night liting that destroys everyones night visiion and makes
everything look normal.... including someone who shouldn't be there...

bob


On Sun, Jan 7, 2018 at 4:43 PM, paul dove via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The lights are to stop crime or they were originally
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jan 7, 2018, at 12:37 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > As Day becomes the new night for cheap electricity and night will become
> > the most expensive, here is a brilliant idea in Norway.
> >
> > Have the lights dim to 20% when no cars or people are driving by.
> >
> > https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1114623_how-serious-
> > is-norway-about-climate-change-so-much-that-its-streetlights-self-dim
> >
> > ANd if you watch the video they mention one of my concerns about a failed
> > radar on any given pole is mitigated because all the lights also talk to
> > each other by RF so that they tell the other lights what is coming.
> >
> > Neat!  Saves 80% of light power while still providing full illumination
> > when someone needs it.
> >
> > I am generally upset at night sky pollution due to excessive night
> > lighting.  But this is a step in the right direction.
> >
> > Remember what our scities look like at night from the air?  What a waste
> of
> > energy...
> >
> > Bob
> > WB4APr
> > -------------- next part --------------
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> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
> group/NEDRA)
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
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Re: Fwd: Self diming street lights

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list

https://www.crimesolutions.gov/PracticeDetails.aspx?ID=38


Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 7, 2018, at 5:46 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Id like to see data on how much crime is prevented by having streetlights
> almost bright as day.
>
> I'd think the opposite.  A thief would have to use a flashlight to be
> effective, adn that would make him more visible than the stupid approach to
> bright night liting that destroys everyones night visiion and makes
> everything look normal.... including someone who shouldn't be there...
>
> bob
>
>
>> On Sun, Jan 7, 2018 at 4:43 PM, paul dove via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> The lights are to stop crime or they were originally
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Jan 7, 2018, at 12:37 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> As Day becomes the new night for cheap electricity and night will become
>>> the most expensive, here is a brilliant idea in Norway.
>>>
>>> Have the lights dim to 20% when no cars or people are driving by.
>>>
>>> https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1114623_how-serious-
>>> is-norway-about-climate-change-so-much-that-its-streetlights-self-dim
>>>
>>> ANd if you watch the video they mention one of my concerns about a failed
>>> radar on any given pole is mitigated because all the lights also talk to
>>> each other by RF so that they tell the other lights what is coming.
>>>
>>> Neat!  Saves 80% of light power while still providing full illumination
>>> when someone needs it.
>>>
>>> I am generally upset at night sky pollution due to excessive night
>>> lighting.  But this is a step in the right direction.
>>>
>>> Remember what our scities look like at night from the air?  What a waste
>> of
>>> energy...
>>>
>>> Bob
>>> WB4APr
>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>> URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/
>> attachments/20180107/1f29d8e8/attachment.html>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
>> group/NEDRA)
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
>> group/NEDRA)
>>
>>
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Re: Fwd: Self diming street lights

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Yep, 13 studies saw a 21% reduction in crime
And 11 studeies saw a decrease in property crimes
but 9 studies showed no change in violent crimes

Which begs the question of all the detail assumptions in each study.  ANd
these are all prior to 2008 when the rising demand for dark skies, night
vision, and light distractions to driving were not considered.
My bias is that there is FAR too much light pollution at night.

Bob


On Sun, Jan 7, 2018 at 10:12 PM, paul dove via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> https://www.crimesolutions.gov/PracticeDetails.aspx?ID=38
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jan 7, 2018, at 5:46 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > Id like to see data on how much crime is prevented by having streetlights
> > almost bright as day.
> >
> > I'd think the opposite.  A thief would have to use a flashlight to be
> > effective, adn that would make him more visible than the stupid approach
> to
> > bright night liting that destroys everyones night visiion and makes
> > everything look normal.... including someone who shouldn't be there...
> >
> > bob
> >
> >
> >> On Sun, Jan 7, 2018 at 4:43 PM, paul dove via EV <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> The lights are to stop crime or they were originally
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >>> On Jan 7, 2018, at 12:37 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV <[hidden email]
> >
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> As Day becomes the new night for cheap electricity and night will
> become
> >>> the most expensive, here is a brilliant idea in Norway.
> >>>
> >>> Have the lights dim to 20% when no cars or people are driving by.
> >>>
> >>> https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1114623_how-serious-
> >>> is-norway-about-climate-change-so-much-that-its-streetlights-self-dim
> >>>
> >>> ANd if you watch the video they mention one of my concerns about a
> failed
> >>> radar on any given pole is mitigated because all the lights also talk
> to
> >>> each other by RF so that they tell the other lights what is coming.
> >>>
> >>> Neat!  Saves 80% of light power while still providing full illumination
> >>> when someone needs it.
> >>>
> >>> I am generally upset at night sky pollution due to excessive night
> >>> lighting.  But this is a step in the right direction.
> >>>
> >>> Remember what our scities look like at night from the air?  What a
> waste
> >> of
> >>> energy...
> >>>
> >>> Bob
> >>> WB4APr
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> >> group/NEDRA)
> >>>
> >>
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Re: Fwd: Self diming street lights

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
paul dove via EV wrote:
> https://www.crimesolutions.gov/PracticeDetails.aspx?ID=38

That's a good start. But the studies it references assume the lights are
on continuously, all night.

It's not obvious what effect lights that detect people and turn off when
there is no one around would have. They have to experiment, and collect
data.

But one thing to watch out for: General Electric wanted to sell more
light bulbs to factories. So they did a study. They looked at the
historical productivity and accident rates in a plant. Then they
installed new, brighter lighting, and carefully measured productivity
again. Voila! Productivity and safety improved!

But... Then they repeated the experiment, but this time they *reduced*
the amount of light (to save electricity or cost). Again, the historical
productivity and accident rates improved!

It turned out that the workers *knew* they were being watched and
measured; so they worked harder and were more careful. The improvements
came from the increases monitoring, not from the lighting changes.

Crime statistics are likely to suffer from the same sort of bias.

For example, adding lights to 1st street might lower the crime rate on
1st street... because the criminals moved to 2nd street. But adding
lights to 2nd street (and eventually, to every street) may turn out to
have *no* overall effect on crime, since everywhere is still the same.
--
Whether we or our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all
our deals and decisions, and she has more votes, a longer memory,
and a sterner sense of justice than we do. -- Wendell Berry
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: Fwd: Self diming street lights

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Well I wasn’t attempting to prove lights deter crime. All I said was that it was the original reason they installed them and apparently someone still believes it helps. Someone asked for data so I posted a link.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 8, 2018, at 1:03 AM, Lee Hart via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> paul dove via EV wrote:
>> https://www.crimesolutions.gov/PracticeDetails.aspx?ID=38
>
> That's a good start. But the studies it references assume the lights are on continuously, all night.
>
> It's not obvious what effect lights that detect people and turn off when there is no one around would have. They have to experiment, and collect data.
>
> But one thing to watch out for: General Electric wanted to sell more light bulbs to factories. So they did a study. They looked at the historical productivity and accident rates in a plant. Then they installed new, brighter lighting, and carefully measured productivity again. Voila! Productivity and safety improved!
>
> But... Then they repeated the experiment, but this time they *reduced* the amount of light (to save electricity or cost). Again, the historical productivity and accident rates improved!
>
> It turned out that the workers *knew* they were being watched and measured; so they worked harder and were more careful. The improvements came from the increases monitoring, not from the lighting changes.
>
> Crime statistics are likely to suffer from the same sort of bias.
>
> For example, adding lights to 1st street might lower the crime rate on 1st street... because the criminals moved to 2nd street. But adding lights to 2nd street (and eventually, to every street) may turn out to have *no* overall effect on crime, since everywhere is still the same.
> --
> Whether we or our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all
> our deals and decisions, and she has more votes, a longer memory,
> and a sterner sense of justice than we do. -- Wendell Berry
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

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