GM Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GM only selling Bolt in CA&OR ...

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
20 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

GM Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GM only selling Bolt in CA&OR ...

brucedp5
This post was updated on .

In reference to Mike's post
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-EVLN-EV-newswire-posts-for-20161119-tp4684540.html

Below is all that is left (the internet has been white-washed) of the hoopla that happened back in 2002 when GM announced they were killing their EV efforts. I find it sad that if you were not there to experience that insanity, today's public not only has no clue of what went on, but questions the statements of those that were. Like, 'we could never have that happen today'.

Let us not forget the past (history) less it will repeat itself (happen) again.

[EV-History:
Way back in 5/31-6/1/2000, I was attending the CARB workshop #2, this time held down in the Los Angeles, CA area (Rosemead)
http://brucedp00.0catch.com/carb0005/

 There were plenty of EV advocates there, all with positive attitudes still trying to sway the powers that be
http://brucedp00.0catch.com/carb0005/carb0005-126.jpg

It all seemed to be going well, despite the LA attitudes (all the SCAQMD clean air employees were driving SUV ice ... go figure). At the beginning of the auto/oil presentations, two clean air celebrities showed up, almost together: Ed Begley Jr. and Bill Nye (the Science Guy).

The proceedings stopped for a moment, as the two individually apologized for their interruptions, and each stated that they were just there to show their support for EVs and clean-air, etc. (that was kind of fun to have them show up - benefits of having Hollywood nearby).

When, at about half way through the presentations gauntlet and at the end of the automaker's portion:
 ... a GM manager came up to the podium, looking like he had been drinking all-night (a short red-faced, purulent/pus-filled boil of a man) stated ...
'GM will not continue making EVs if we can not sell them (for a profit)' ...
'We will sell (give-away, cheap) golf-carts to meet the mandate' ...

Whoa! ... that (like this recent pr item fro GM saying they are only going to sell Bolt in CA & OR) took the breath out of my sails. After that I left the presentations as I had lost interest.

As you can read (below) it wasn't until a couple of years later that GM made that official, by recalling all EV leases (for crushing). Other automakers followed suit.

Chrysler snapped up GEM nEVs to earn CARB credits, Ford offered the Think neighbor nEV, and GM was actively selling-cheap (giving away) Club Car nEVs, see

http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/gms-pathway-neighborhood-electric-vehicle-earns-dubious-distinction
GM's Pathway neighborhood electric vehicle earns dubious distinction
SEPTEMBER 5, 2002  WASHINGTON -- They resemble golf carts on steroids, but they are enough like cars to earn clean-air credits for automakers ...

It was many years of EVangel hardship while we waited for an administration change ...
]


Well, with today's new administration we are in for more than just a bumpy ride (evdl member Rush's prognostic posts may not even show all the future EV-horrors to come).

Bottom line: the next years going to be very rough, and EVangels are going to have to do what we did way back when:

-keep the EV facts straight, telling the public what EVs can and can not do (to offset all the hate, mis-information that will be spewed)

-keep our attitudes positive (as a source of facts, not emotions)

-know who the EV opponents and protagonists are (as we have seen, what is said by automakers is not always the truth). We will need to keep a close eye on their deeds to know the truth (watch what they do, not believe what they say).

On that point, in reference to:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/2020-TMC-to-Wake-up-smell-the-cat-food-in-their-bank-account-Toyota-planning-long-range-tp4684357.html

 take a look at the last item I listed (below). TMC only has 4 EV R&D employees= it is tough to believe TMC is EV-serious, and much easier to believe TMC's pr-talk is far cheaper for them.




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
http://evdl.org/evln/


{brucedp.0catch.com}



-
http://www.westhillscollision.com/upperv.php?article=ev1
 ... Program Cancellation
By 2002, 1,117 EV1s had been produced, though production had ended in 1999, when GM shut down the EV1 assembly line ... On February 7, 2002, GM Advanced Technology Vehicles brand manager Ken Stewart notified lessees that GM would be removing the cars from the road, contradicting an earlier statement that GM would in fact not be "taking cars off the road from customers." Drivers feared that their working cars would be destroyed after repossession.

In late 2003, General Motors, then led by CEO Rick Wagoner, officially canceled the EV1 program. GM stated that it could not sell enough of the cars to make the EV1 profitable. In addition, the cost of maintaining a parts supply and service infrastructure for the 15-year minimum required by the state of California meant that existing leases would not be renewed, and all the cars would have to be returned to GM's possession. At least 58 EV1 drivers sent letters and deposit checks to GM, requesting lease extensions at no risk or cost to the automaker. The drivers reportedly agreed to be responsible for the maintenance and repair costs of the EV1, and would allow GM the right to terminate the lease if expensive repairs were needed. On June 28, GM famously refused the offer and returned the checks, which totaled $22,000; By contrast, Honda, which had taken similar actions with its EV+ program, agreed to extend its customers' leases. In November 2003, GM began reclaiming the cars; several were donated to museums and educational institutions (e.g. Mott Community College in Flint, Michigan), albeit with deactivated powertrains meant to keep the cars from ever running again, but the majority were sent to car crushers to be destroyed, allegedly with government permission to do so.

The documentary "Who Killed The Electric Car" presents evidence that GM stuck with plans to cancel and scrap the car, despite apparent public interest. The film includes footage of GM employees on the EV1 team discussing a waiting list of people interested in leasing or purchasing EV1s. In 2003, a reporter for the Los Angeles Times attempted to lease an EV1 from GM, but was told that he "was welcome to join their waiting list, along with undisclosed others, for an indefinite period of time, but (his) chances of getting a car were slim." Critics of GM and proponents of electric vehicles claim that GM feared the emergence of electrical vehicle technology because the cars might cut into their profitable spare parts market, as electric cars have far fewer moving parts than combustion vehicles.

Critics further charged that when CARB, in response to the EV1, mandated that electric vehicles makeup a certain percentage of all automakers' sales, GM came to fear that the EV1 might encourage unwanted regulation in other states. GM battled against CARB regulations, going as far as to sue CARB in federal court. At the 2000 hearings, GM claimed that consumers were simply not showing sufficient interest in the EV1 to meet the sales requirements called for by CARB mandates. The American automaker, along with Toyota, cited a study they had commissioned, which showed that customers would only choose an electric car over a gasoline car if it cost a full $28,000 less than a comparable gasoline car. Dr. Kenneth E. Train of UC Berkeley, who conducted the study, stated that given a typical retail price of $21,000 for a RAV4 SUV, "Toyota would have to give the average consumer a free RAV4-EV plus a check for approximately $7,000."

An independent study commissioned by the California Electric Transportation Coalition (CalETC) and conducted by the Green Car Institute and the Dohring Company automotive market research firm found very different results. The study "used the same research methodologies employed by the auto industry to identify markets for its gasoline vehicles". It found the annual consumer market for EVs to be 12-18% of the new light-duty vehicle market in California, amounting to annual sales of between 151,200 and 226,800 electric vehicles, approximately ten times the quantity specified by CARB's mandate. The results of the Toyota-GM study were questioned in light of the success of Toyota's electric RAV4-EV, which retailed at $30,000 yet had a waiting list of its own. At the hearings, the automakers also presented the hydrogen vehicle as a higher alternative to the gasoline car, bolstered by a recent federal earmark for hydrogen research. Many, including members of the CARB hearing committee, were concerned that this was a bait-and-switch on the automakers' part, in order to make CARB eliminate the EV mandate, and that hydrogen was not as viable of an alternative as it was made to seem.

CARB had already rolled back deadlines several times, in light of car companies not being ready to meet the ZEV requirement. In 2001, it proposed amendments that would grant automakers credit for producing advanced-technology, partial-zero emission vehicles, such as hybrid cars, in place of battery EVs. However, the industry used the relaxation of the rules to challenge the regulation as a whole.

General Motors and DaimlerChrysler, backed by the Bush Administration, filed suit against CARB in the US District Court in the Eastern District of California, successfully arguing that CARB's method of determining whether or not a vehicle qualified as an Advanced Technology Partial ZEV (AT PZEV) used the vehicle's fuel economy as one of the standards, in addition to reduced emissions; according to federal law, states are barred from regulating fuel economy in any way. Judge Robert E. Coyle issued a preliminary injunction on June 11 against the CARB, ruling the provision unconstitutional and preventing the implementation of CARB's 2001 amendments. The mandate was modified, with the zero-emission requirement reduced to at least 250 fuel cell or battery-powered vehicles by 2008.

The GM training center in Burbank, California, served as a storage location for many EV1s prior to being crushed, and saw protests and vigils by EV1 drivers and fans ...

Resurrection
Some of the deactivated EV1s given to universities and engineering schools were reactivated, and driven on public roads. The institutions came under fire from General Motors for violating the agreements of the donation, which indicated that the cars not be "titled, licensed, nor driven on public highways" and could only be restored and showcased. GM has potential legal obligations under laws that require automakers to maintain parts and service infrastructure for consumer vehicles for a period of no less than 15 years ...

 ... the EV1 was designed from the ground up to be an electric vehicle. It was not a conversion of an existing vehicle, nor did it share a drivetrain with another GM model ...



http://electrifyingtimes.com/ev1crush.html
 ... Now the final bombshell has hit the EV community as word began to leak out that GM had laid-of a number of EV specialists in both Northern and Southern California and is planning to crushing both EV1s and S10 trucks ...

GM was the only manufacturer that continued to openly oppose the ZEV mandate.  On February 23, 2001 they filed a lawsuit in Contra Costa County Superior Court.  In a forty-four-page complaint, GM alleges that the ZEV mandate violates the California Environmental Quality Act and other State Laws as well as the Federal Clean Air Act ...



http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/gm-chevy-bolt-ev-limits-launch/
General Motors limits 2017 Chevy Bolt EV sales to California and ...
November 19, 2016  The Chevy Bolt won’t be available nationwide this year after all. According to the Wall Street Journal (subscription required), only California and Oregon buyers will have a chance to get Bolted this year, other states will have to wait for 2017 for only “limited quantities,” reports Electrek.

The limited, two-state launch is a big switch. General Motors Environment and Energy Policy and Communications Manager Chad Balch told AutoBlog in late 2015 that after positive response to the Bolt EV concept “GM leadership has essentially fast-tracked this car into production.”

“We’ve also committed that it’s going to be a 50-state vehicle at launch. That’s to show our commitment to the technology,” Balch said. “Our hope is that it becomes a high-volume-selling car and that it’s not just for the coasts. It’s not just for a certain income level, but it is a long-range EV that anybody can get themselves into.”
More:  The highly anticipated Chevy Bolt ought to be here before year’s end

When GM spokesperson Michelle Malcho told the Wall Street Journal this past week that deliveries were still on for California and Oregon in 2016 and that other states will have to wait for a slow rollout of limited inventory during 2017, it became clear that the General’s launch plans had changed ...

As Electrek posited, perhaps the change is due to production issues. But it might be ZEV-related. The deliveries first to California and Oregon, both with Zero Emissions Vehicle (ZEV) mandates, raise questions about the Bolt EV being a “compliance car,” not really a mass market vehicle.

In the 10 states with ZEV mandates — California was the first and nine others adopted the same levels — automobile manufacturers are required to produce within the state a fleet minimum of 15-percent zero emissions vehicles by 2025. The number of vehicles required by manufacturers increases incrementally until 2025. Carmakers that don’t meet the annual mandate levels through ZEV sales must purchase ZEV credits from other manufacturers who have more credits than they need.

Buying credits can be expensive. A compliance car, even if sold at a loss, can still be better for the bottom line, and perhaps for corporate ego, than buying credits from other manufacturers. Credits are based on vehicles sold and driving range. So Tesla earns 4 credits for each Model S sold, according to Watchdog, with each credit worth $4,000.

If GM is producing the Bolt EV only to meet mandates in ZEV states, the highly touted “mass market EV coming-soon-to-50-states” blush comes off that rose quickly. If the numbers still hold and, with a highly publicized 200-mile plus range, each Bolt EV represents $16,000 GM wouldn’t have to spend buying ZEV credits from other manufacturers. That possibility could make it worthwhile to take a loss on each car sold in ZEV states but make it up in credits.

The ZEV states in addition to California and Oregon are Connecticut, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island and Vermont. If only those states end up with Bolt EVs for sale 2017, the ‘compliance car’ concern may turn out to be real. Consumers in ZEV states won’t lose out by buying a compliance car, but people in the other 40 states won’t even get a chance.

[*]
There’s another possible explanation for the recent shift in GM’s Chevy Bolt EV rollout plans. Two days after the November 8 election the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers sent a letter to President-elect Trump’s transition team, asking them to put all federal policies, actions, regulations, and rules from the DOT and DOE regarding electric vehicles and autonomous vehicles since September 1 on hold until after the transition in January so the policies could be studied for alignment with administration policy directions ... Hopefully, the Bolt EV launch shift isn’t the first impact of many resulting from the new administration ...


http://www.theverge.com/2016/11/19/13687680/chevy-s-bolt-ev-limited-availability-2016-wider-rollout-next-spring
Chevy's Bolt EV to have limited availability in 2016, with wider rollout ...
Nov 19, 2016  The $30,000 electric vehicle has an EPA-estimated range of 238 miles on a full charge, is significantly cheaper than the only other 200-plus-mile electric ...

https://www.yahoo.com/music/general-motors-limits-2017-chevy-191405649.html
General Motors limits 2017 Chevy Bolt EV sales to California and ...
November 19, 2016  If GM is producing the Bolt EV only to meet mandates in ZEV states, the highly ... Significant electric vehicle and charging infrastructure deployment actions and ...

http://www.theverge.com/2016/11/19/13687680/chevy-s-bolt-ev-limited-availability-2016-wider-rollout-next-spring
Chevy's Bolt EV to have limited availability in 2016, with wider rollout ...
Nov 19, 2016  General Motors had long been planning to release its all-electric Chevy Bolt before the end of 2016 — and it will, but only in California and Oregon.



http://gas2.org/2016/11/19/toyota-electric-car-division-four-employees/
Toyota Electric Car Division Has Only Four Employees
November 19th, 2016  After announcing recently that it is open to the idea of making electric cars, Toyota is putting its money where its mouth is ... will it be too little too late for Toyota ...
-
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GM Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GM only selling Bolt in CA&OR ...

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
History tells us that -- for better and/or worse -- what governments do
makes a big difference in whether EVs advance or retreat.

Bruce is 100% correct that GM's specific history predicts their current and
future involvement with EVs.  As I said a couple of weeks ago, I'm still
waiting for that Chevette EV that GM promised in 1978.  I guess I'll be
waiting a lot longer.  

(Disclosure: That's a rhetorical statement.  Personally, I wouldn't buy any
GM vehicle at any price under any circumstances.  Also, having known someone
who owned a 1980 Chevette: yikes, noooooooooo  ....... )

All that said, unless the state or fed legislators make it illegal, the sure
way to drive electric is and probably aways will be to build your own.  
Normally that would entail converting an ICEV.

I think I can safely say that EV conversion has been the EVDL's largest and
most critical mission since it was first launched at sjsu.edu 25 years ago.  
If and when no automaker will sell you an EV here in the US, or you can't
get the type of vehicle you need with a motor under the hood, drop on by the
EVDL.  We'll be here to help.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GM Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GM only selling Bolt in CA&OR ...

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I hope and that that you are wrong in thinking it possible that EVs could become unavailable.
I expect a strong and vigorous market.
I'm also hopeful that a surging EV market will mean that EV conversions will grow along with the main EV market.

Sent from AltaMail


 From: EVDL Administrator via EV <[hidden email]> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] GM Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GM only selling Bolt in CA&OR ... Date: 11/20/16, 12:00 AM

 
History tells us that -- for better and/or worse -- what governments do  
makes a big difference in whether EVs advance or retreat.  
 
Bruce is 100% correct that GM's specific history predicts their current and  
future involvement with EVs.  As I said a couple of weeks ago, I'm still  
waiting for that Chevette EV that GM promised in 1978.  I guess I'll be  
waiting a lot longer.  
 
(Disclosure: That's a rhetorical statement.  Personally, I wouldn't buy any  
GM vehicle at any price under any circumstances.  Also, having known someone  
who owned a 1980 Chevette: yikes, noooooooooo  ....... )
 
All that said, unless the state or fed legislators make it illegal, the sure  
way to drive electric is and probably aways will be to build your own.  
Normally that would entail converting an ICEV.
 
I think I can safely say that EV conversion has been the EVDL's largest and  
most critical mission since it was first launched at sjsu.edu 25 years ago.  
If and when no automaker will sell you an EV here in the US, or you can't  
get the type of vehicle you need with a motor under the hood, drop on by the  
EVDL.  We'll be here to help.
 
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator
 
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ 
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =  
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not  
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my  
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
 
 
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub 
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org 
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ 
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20161120/93ef8727/attachment.htm>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GM Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GM only sellingBolt in CA&OR ...

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Mark,

I share the hope.
But I am also wondering why GM suddenly changed their roll-out strategy
significantly (reducing it and making it much more non-committal) just
days after the surprising outcome of the elections. Hard to believe that
is a coincidence.
And that coupled to the automaker lobbying efforts already under way to
abolish the CARB mandates - where did we hear that before?

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless
 
office +1 408 383 7626                    Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130                    private: cvandewater.info

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
this message is prohibited.


-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mark Abramowitz
via EV
Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2016 12:33 AM
To: EVDL Administrator
Cc: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] GM Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GM only
sellingBolt in CA&OR ...

I hope and that that you are wrong in thinking it possible that EVs
could become unavailable.
I expect a strong and vigorous market.
I'm also hopeful that a surging EV market will mean that EV conversions
will grow along with the main EV market.

Sent from AltaMail


 From: EVDL Administrator via EV <[hidden email]> To: Electric
Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] GM
Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GM only selling Bolt in CA&OR ...
Date: 11/20/16, 12:00 AM

 
History tells us that -- for better and/or worse -- what governments do

makes a big difference in whether EVs advance or retreat.  
 
Bruce is 100% correct that GM's specific history predicts their current
and  
future involvement with EVs.  As I said a couple of weeks ago, I'm still

waiting for that Chevette EV that GM promised in 1978.  I guess I'll be

waiting a lot longer.  
 
(Disclosure: That's a rhetorical statement.  Personally, I wouldn't buy
any  
GM vehicle at any price under any circumstances.  Also, having known
someone  
who owned a 1980 Chevette: yikes, noooooooooo  ....... )
 
All that said, unless the state or fed legislators make it illegal, the
sure  
way to drive electric is and probably aways will be to build your own.

Normally that would entail converting an ICEV.
 
I think I can safely say that EV conversion has been the EVDL's largest
and  
most critical mission since it was first launched at sjsu.edu 25 years
ago.  
If and when no automaker will sell you an EV here in the US, or you
can't  
get the type of vehicle you need with a motor under the hood, drop on by
the  
EVDL.  We'll be here to help.
 
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator
 
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ 
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =  
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not  
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my  
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
 
 
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub 
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org 
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ 
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
<http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20161120/93ef
8727/attachment.htm>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GM Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GM only sellingBolt in CA&OR ...

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
It does seem to be more than a coincidence. But part of the reason could
be the realization of an enormously challenging rollout. After all, they
are trying to do what Tesla is doing in about a third the time.

Not only that, but there are 13 states plus DC which have adopted CARB.
Unless the EPA is significantly overruled, I don't think GM cannot
ignore that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_emission_standards

Peri


------ Original Message ------
From: "Cor van de Water via EV" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Cc:
Sent: 20-Nov-16 8:50:14 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] GM Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GM only
sellingBolt in CA&OR ...

>Mark,
>
>I share the hope.
>But I am also wondering why GM suddenly changed their roll-out strategy
>significantly (reducing it and making it much more non-committal) just
>days after the surprising outcome of the elections. Hard to believe
>that
>is a coincidence.
>And that coupled to the automaker lobbying efforts already under way to
>abolish the CARB mandates - where did we hear that before?
>
>Cor van de Water
>Chief Scientist
>Proxim Wireless
>
>office +1 408 383 7626                    Skype: cor_van_de_water
>XoIP   +31 87 784 1130                    private: cvandewater.info
>
>http://www.proxim.com
>
>This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential
>and
>proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you
>received
>this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
>unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
>this message is prohibited.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mark
>Abramowitz
>via EV
>Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2016 12:33 AM
>To: EVDL Administrator
>Cc: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] GM Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GM only
>sellingBolt in CA&OR ...
>
>I hope and that that you are wrong in thinking it possible that EVs
>could become unavailable.
>I expect a strong and vigorous market.
>I'm also hopeful that a surging EV market will mean that EV conversions
>will grow along with the main EV market.
>
>Sent from AltaMail
>
>
>  From: EVDL Administrator via EV <[hidden email]> To: Electric
>Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] GM
>Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GM only selling Bolt in CA&OR ...
>Date: 11/20/16, 12:00 AM
>
>
>History tells us that -- for better and/or worse -- what governments do
>
>makes a big difference in whether EVs advance or retreat.
>
>Bruce is 100% correct that GM's specific history predicts their current
>and
>future involvement with EVs.  As I said a couple of weeks ago, I'm
>still
>
>waiting for that Chevette EV that GM promised in 1978.  I guess I'll be
>
>waiting a lot longer.
>
>(Disclosure: That's a rhetorical statement.  Personally, I wouldn't buy
>any
>GM vehicle at any price under any circumstances.  Also, having known
>someone
>who owned a 1980 Chevette: yikes, noooooooooo  ....... )
>
>All that said, unless the state or fed legislators make it illegal, the
>sure
>way to drive electric is and probably aways will be to build your own.
>
>Normally that would entail converting an ICEV.
>
>I think I can safely say that EV conversion has been the EVDL's largest
>and
>most critical mission since it was first launched at sjsu.edu 25 years
>ago.
>If and when no automaker will sell you an EV here in the US, or you
>can't
>get the type of vehicle you need with a motor under the hood, drop on
>by
>the
>EVDL.  We'll be here to help.
>
>David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>EVDL Administrator
>
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
>reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
>email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
>-------------- next part --------------
>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>URL:
><http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20161120/93ef
>8727/attachment.htm>
>_______________________________________________
>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>_______________________________________________
>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GM Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GM only sellingBolt in CA&OR ...

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
It's not like GM does not know how to introduce a new car...
When Tesla would claim that they need to roll out slow because they did
not yet have a service center in several states, then I can understand
that.
When GM would claim they need to slow-roll (after first planning and
announcing a nation wide roll-out) just days after an election result
that will favor killing CARB mandates, I have to wonder what the agenda
is and definitely the fact that they are already selling the Volt and
now rolling out the Bolt, there should be no logistical or major
training/service issues to deal with, those have already been overcome
with the Volt product line.

There really is only one reason that seems to stick and it is ugly...

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless
 
office +1 408 383 7626                    Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130                    private: cvandewater.info

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
this message is prohibited.


-----Original Message-----
From: Peri Hartman [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2016 9:09 AM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re[2]: [EVDL] GM Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GM only
sellingBolt in CA&OR ...

It does seem to be more than a coincidence. But part of the reason could

be the realization of an enormously challenging rollout. After all, they

are trying to do what Tesla is doing in about a third the time.

Not only that, but there are 13 states plus DC which have adopted CARB.
Unless the EPA is significantly overruled, I don't think GM cannot
ignore that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_emission_standards

Peri


------ Original Message ------
From: "Cor van de Water via EV" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Cc:
Sent: 20-Nov-16 8:50:14 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] GM Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GM only
sellingBolt in CA&OR ...

>Mark,
>
>I share the hope.
>But I am also wondering why GM suddenly changed their roll-out strategy
>significantly (reducing it and making it much more non-committal) just
>days after the surprising outcome of the elections. Hard to believe
>that
>is a coincidence.
>And that coupled to the automaker lobbying efforts already under way to
>abolish the CARB mandates - where did we hear that before?
>
>Cor van de Water
>Chief Scientist
>Proxim Wireless
>
>office +1 408 383 7626                    Skype: cor_van_de_water
>XoIP   +31 87 784 1130                    private: cvandewater.info
>
>http://www.proxim.com
>
>This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential
>and
>proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you
>received
>this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
>unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
>this message is prohibited.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mark
>Abramowitz
>via EV
>Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2016 12:33 AM
>To: EVDL Administrator
>Cc: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] GM Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GM only
>sellingBolt in CA&OR ...
>
>I hope and that that you are wrong in thinking it possible that EVs
>could become unavailable.
>I expect a strong and vigorous market.
>I'm also hopeful that a surging EV market will mean that EV conversions
>will grow along with the main EV market.
>
>Sent from AltaMail
>
>
>  From: EVDL Administrator via EV <[hidden email]> To: Electric
>Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] GM
>Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GM only selling Bolt in CA&OR ...
>Date: 11/20/16, 12:00 AM
>
>
>History tells us that -- for better and/or worse -- what governments do
>
>makes a big difference in whether EVs advance or retreat.
>
>Bruce is 100% correct that GM's specific history predicts their current
>and
>future involvement with EVs.  As I said a couple of weeks ago, I'm
>still
>
>waiting for that Chevette EV that GM promised in 1978.  I guess I'll be
>
>waiting a lot longer.
>
>(Disclosure: That's a rhetorical statement.  Personally, I wouldn't buy
>any
>GM vehicle at any price under any circumstances.  Also, having known
>someone
>who owned a 1980 Chevette: yikes, noooooooooo  ....... )
>
>All that said, unless the state or fed legislators make it illegal, the
>sure
>way to drive electric is and probably aways will be to build your own.
>
>Normally that would entail converting an ICEV.
>
>I think I can safely say that EV conversion has been the EVDL's largest
>and
>most critical mission since it was first launched at sjsu.edu 25 years
>ago.
>If and when no automaker will sell you an EV here in the US, or you
>can't
>get the type of vehicle you need with a motor under the hood, drop on
>by
>the
>EVDL.  We'll be here to help.
>
>David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>EVDL Administrator
>
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
>reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
>email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
>-------------- next part --------------
>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>URL:
><http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20161120/93e
f

>8727/attachment.htm>
>_______________________________________________
>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>_______________________________________________
>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GM Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GM only sellingBolt in CA&OR ...

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
We get a new Tzar of the EPA with Trump. Rules can change rapidly.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 20, 2016, at 11:08 AM, Peri Hartman via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> It does seem to be more than a coincidence. But part of the reason could be the realization of an enormously challenging rollout. After all, they are trying to do what Tesla is doing in about a third the time.
>
> Not only that, but there are 13 states plus DC which have adopted CARB. Unless the EPA is significantly overruled, I don't think GM cannot ignore that.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_emission_standards
>
> Peri
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Cor van de Water via EV" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Cc:
> Sent: 20-Nov-16 8:50:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] GM Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GM only sellingBolt in CA&OR ...
>
>> Mark,
>>
>> I share the hope.
>> But I am also wondering why GM suddenly changed their roll-out strategy
>> significantly (reducing it and making it much more non-committal) just
>> days after the surprising outcome of the elections. Hard to believe that
>> is a coincidence.
>> And that coupled to the automaker lobbying efforts already under way to
>> abolish the CARB mandates - where did we hear that before?
>>
>> Cor van de Water
>> Chief Scientist
>> Proxim Wireless
>>
>> office +1 408 383 7626                    Skype: cor_van_de_water
>> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130                    private: cvandewater.info
>>
>> http://www.proxim.com
>>
>> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
>> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
>> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
>> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
>> this message is prohibited.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mark Abramowitz
>> via EV
>> Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2016 12:33 AM
>> To: EVDL Administrator
>> Cc: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] GM Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GM only
>> sellingBolt in CA&OR ...
>>
>> I hope and that that you are wrong in thinking it possible that EVs
>> could become unavailable.
>> I expect a strong and vigorous market.
>> I'm also hopeful that a surging EV market will mean that EV conversions
>> will grow along with the main EV market.
>>
>> Sent from AltaMail
>>
>>
>> From: EVDL Administrator via EV <[hidden email]> To: Electric
>> Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] GM
>> Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GM only selling Bolt    in CA&OR ...
>> Date: 11/20/16, 12:00 AM
>>
>>
>> History tells us that -- for better and/or worse -- what governments do
>>
>> makes a big difference in whether EVs advance or retreat.
>>
>> Bruce is 100% correct that GM's specific history predicts their current
>> and
>> future involvement with EVs.  As I said a couple of weeks ago, I'm still
>>
>> waiting for that Chevette EV that GM promised in 1978.  I guess I'll be
>>
>> waiting a lot longer.
>>
>> (Disclosure: That's a rhetorical statement.  Personally, I wouldn't buy
>> any
>> GM vehicle at any price under any circumstances.  Also, having known
>> someone
>> who owned a 1980 Chevette: yikes, noooooooooo  ....... )
>>
>> All that said, unless the state or fed legislators make it illegal, the
>> sure
>> way to drive electric is and probably aways will be to build your own.
>>
>> Normally that would entail converting an ICEV.
>>
>> I think I can safely say that EV conversion has been the EVDL's largest
>> and
>> most critical mission since it was first launched at sjsu.edu 25 years
>> ago.
>> If and when no automaker will sell you an EV here in the US, or you
>> can't
>> get the type of vehicle you need with a motor under the hood, drop on by
>> the
>> EVDL.  We'll be here to help.
>>
>> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>> EVDL Administrator
>>
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
>> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
>> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL:
>> <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20161120/93ef
>> 8727/attachment.htm>
>> _______________________________________________
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GM Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GM only sellingBolt in CA&OR ...

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I find it very interesting that since GM suddenly changed how they are going to
present the Bolt to the public that we are actually discussing why they made
that choice. Cor in an previous email said ' so now the federal govt is changing
significantly', David said ' what governments do makes a big difference in
whether EVs advance or retreat', Bruce wrote 'with today's new administration we
are in for more than just a bumpy ride'.

If that's not politics, I don't know what is...

All I'm saying is just be cognizant of the fact that the car companies, the
petroleum companies do NOT want electric vehicles... talk about it and if you
want EV's in your/our future make sure that politicians know your wants, like
that phrase -vote with your pocket book, or vote to have a cleaner more healthy
future for you and your children. And If you don't want EV's to be in your
future, why are you on this list?

Bruce's daily emails are is invaluable and such a time saver for information
about what is happening in the EV world

This list is better that David's phrase, 'If and when no automaker will sell you
an EV here in the US, or you can't get the type of vehicle you need with a motor
under the hood, drop on by the EVDL.  We'll be here to help.'

Happy Thanksgiving to all,

Rush Dougherty
Tucson AZ 85719


> -----Original Message-----
> From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water via
EV
> Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2016 9:50 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] GM Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GM only sellingBolt in
CA&OR ...
>
> Mark,
>
> I share the hope.
> But I am also wondering why GM suddenly changed their roll-out strategy
significantly
> (reducing it and making it much more non-committal) just days after the
surprising outcome of
> the elections. Hard to believe that is a coincidence.
> And that coupled to the automaker lobbying efforts already under way to
abolish the CARB

> mandates - where did we hear that before?
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless
>
> office +1 408 383 7626                    Skype: cor_van_de_water
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130                    private: cvandewater.info
>
> http://www.proxim.com
>
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary
> information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this message in
error, please
> delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized use, disclosure,
distribution, or copying of
> any part of this message is prohibited.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mark Abramowitz via
EV
> Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2016 12:33 AM
> To: EVDL Administrator
> Cc: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] GM Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GM only sellingBolt in
CA&OR ...
>
> I hope and that that you are wrong in thinking it possible that EVs could
become unavailable.
> I expect a strong and vigorous market.
> I'm also hopeful that a surging EV market will mean that EV conversions will
grow along with
> the main EV market.
>
> Sent from AltaMail
>
>
>  From: EVDL Administrator via EV <[hidden email]> To: Electric Vehicle
Discussion List

> <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] GM
> Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GM only selling Bolt in CA&OR ...
> Date: 11/20/16, 12:00 AM
>
>
> History tells us that -- for better and/or worse -- what governments do
>
> makes a big difference in whether EVs advance or retreat.
>
> Bruce is 100% correct that GM's specific history predicts their current and
future involvement
> with EVs.  As I said a couple of weeks ago, I'm still
>
> waiting for that Chevette EV that GM promised in 1978.  I guess I'll be
>
> waiting a lot longer.
>
> (Disclosure: That's a rhetorical statement.  Personally, I wouldn't buy any GM
vehicle at any
> price under any circumstances.  Also, having known someone who owned a 1980
Chevette:
> yikes, noooooooooo  ....... )
>
> All that said, unless the state or fed legislators make it illegal, the sure
way to drive electric is
> and probably aways will be to build your own.
>
> Normally that would entail converting an ICEV.
>
> I think I can safely say that EV conversion has been the EVDL's largest and
most critical
> mission since it was first launched at sjsu.edu 25 years
> ago.
> If and when no automaker will sell you an EV here in the US, or you can't get
the type of
> vehicle you need with a motor under the hood, drop on by the EVDL.  We'll be
here to help.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information:
> http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me.  To send
a private
> message, please obtain my email address from the webpage
http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing
at NEDRA

> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20161120/93ef
> 8727/attachment.htm>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing
at NEDRA
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing
at NEDRA
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)


_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GM Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GM only sellingBolt in CA&OR ...

tomw
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
A few possible reasons for the slowed introduction of the Bolt:

1) LG Chem has had a glitch in increasing battery production so cannot supply the planned quantities in the required time frame.

2) GM has discovered some problems with the Bolt which they do not want to advertise, but need to delay production to implement improvements.

3) GM (or LG Chem) has discovered some ways to significantly reduce production costs and want get these designed in and implemented before producing significant product quantity.

4) GM wants to gain field experience with Bolt ownership in a limited way to see what issues arise to limit warranty/recall costs.

Having worked in product development quite a few years I have personally experienced analogs of all of these.  But, people like to speculate and believe what they want to believe.  Only time will tell.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GM Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GM only sellingBolt in CA&OR ...

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I think that Tesla is the market dynamic that makes this round different.  Even if all other manufacturers pull back from selling electric vehicles, Tesla will still be there them.  They are all in on EVs.  

I'm still surprised that the other manufacturers would cede the business to Tesla so easily, but that lookalike what GM just did.  They really must not believe that EVs are the future of transportation.  That leaves Tesla to drive the market.

I wish that there were other manufacturers taking active part, because Tesla has a long way to go and their finances are tight, but I am really glad they are trying like they are.

Mike

On November 20, 2016 9:50:14 AM MST, Cor van de Water via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

>Mark,
>
>I share the hope.
>But I am also wondering why GM suddenly changed their roll-out strategy
>significantly (reducing it and making it much more non-committal) just
>days after the surprising outcome of the elections. Hard to believe
>that
>is a coincidence.
>And that coupled to the automaker lobbying efforts already under way to
>abolish the CARB mandates - where did we hear that before?
>
>Cor van de Water
>Chief Scientist
>Proxim Wireless
>  
>office +1 408 383 7626                    Skype: cor_van_de_water
>XoIP   +31 87 784 1130                    private: cvandewater.info
>
>http://www.proxim.com
>
>This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential
>and
>proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you
>received
>this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
>unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
>this message is prohibited.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mark
>Abramowitz
>via EV
>Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2016 12:33 AM
>To: EVDL Administrator
>Cc: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] GM Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GM only
>sellingBolt in CA&OR ...
>
>I hope and that that you are wrong in thinking it possible that EVs
>could become unavailable.
>I expect a strong and vigorous market.
>I'm also hopeful that a surging EV market will mean that EV conversions
>will grow along with the main EV market.
>
>Sent from AltaMail
>
>
> From: EVDL Administrator via EV <[hidden email]> To: Electric
>Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] GM
>Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GM only selling Bolt in CA&OR ...
>Date: 11/20/16, 12:00 AM
>
>
>History tells us that -- for better and/or worse -- what governments do
>
>makes a big difference in whether EVs advance or retreat.  
>
>Bruce is 100% correct that GM's specific history predicts their current
>and  
>future involvement with EVs.  As I said a couple of weeks ago, I'm
>still
>
>waiting for that Chevette EV that GM promised in 1978.  I guess I'll be
>
>waiting a lot longer.  
>
>(Disclosure: That's a rhetorical statement.  Personally, I wouldn't buy
>any  
>GM vehicle at any price under any circumstances.  Also, having known
>someone  
>who owned a 1980 Chevette: yikes, noooooooooo  ....... )
>
>All that said, unless the state or fed legislators make it illegal, the
>sure  
>way to drive electric is and probably aways will be to build your own.
>
>Normally that would entail converting an ICEV.
>
>I think I can safely say that EV conversion has been the EVDL's largest
>and  
>most critical mission since it was first launched at sjsu.edu 25 years
>ago.  
>If and when no automaker will sell you an EV here in the US, or you
>can't  
>get the type of vehicle you need with a motor under the hood, drop on
>by
>the  
>EVDL.  We'll be here to help.
>
>David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>EVDL Administrator
>
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ 
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =  
>Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not  
>reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my  
>email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub 
>http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org 
>Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ 
>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
>-------------- next part --------------
>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>URL:
><http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20161120/93ef
>8727/attachment.htm>
>_______________________________________________
>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>_______________________________________________
>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GM Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GM only selling Bolt in CA&OR ...

Mark Fr
In reply to this post by brucedp5
I emailed GM 5 days ago asking if they are committed to the Bolt roll-out and EV in general. I have not heard back.  
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GM Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GMonly sellingBolt in CA&OR ...

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
While I recognise that the political field is changing and as a result
the car makers might change their direction, I also dedicate significant
time to building EVs (I am involved with 2 light trucks that are
refurbished with Leaf battery modules to make it a pretty utilitarian
vehicle) as well as that I have refurbished several Leafs with better
battery packs to regain original range (or close to that).
Someone even asked me how to increase range by installing a 30kWh pack
that they purchased into their original 24kWh Leaf and I think that can
be done, so I sketched the process for them (they were too far away to
go and be hands-on)
so, I wil continue to spread the message even if car makers are moving
in the opposite direction.

It will be interesting what Chinese investors such as BYD and FF are
going to do, as well as local companies such as Tesla and Lucid for
example, but also others with deep pockets like Google and Apple who
should not be concerned what is happening with USA, since it is only a
tiny fraction of the world market... If China and India and Europe and
several countries of S America and Asia are moving to electric
transportation then it is pretty irrelevant what happens in USA, besides
a repeat of the 70's where the USA automakers were wiped away by events
beyond their control due to their lack of preparation for change (not
entirely unlike Dinosaurs).
Indeed, time will tell.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless
 
office +1 408 383 7626                    Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130                    private: cvandewater.info

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
this message is prohibited.


-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Rush Dougherty
via EV
Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2016 10:07 AM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] GM Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GMonly
sellingBolt in CA&OR ...

I find it very interesting that since GM suddenly changed how they are
going to
present the Bolt to the public that we are actually discussing why they
made
that choice. Cor in an previous email said ' so now the federal govt is
changing
significantly', David said ' what governments do makes a big difference
in
whether EVs advance or retreat', Bruce wrote 'with today's new
administration we
are in for more than just a bumpy ride'.

If that's not politics, I don't know what is...

All I'm saying is just be cognizant of the fact that the car companies,
the
petroleum companies do NOT want electric vehicles... talk about it and
if you
want EV's in your/our future make sure that politicians know your wants,
like
that phrase -vote with your pocket book, or vote to have a cleaner more
healthy
future for you and your children. And If you don't want EV's to be in
your
future, why are you on this list?

Bruce's daily emails are is invaluable and such a time saver for
information
about what is happening in the EV world

This list is better that David's phrase, 'If and when no automaker will
sell you
an EV here in the US, or you can't get the type of vehicle you need with
a motor
under the hood, drop on by the EVDL.  We'll be here to help.'

Happy Thanksgiving to all,

Rush Dougherty
Tucson AZ 85719


> -----Original Message-----
> From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Cor van de
Water via
EV
> Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2016 9:50 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] GM Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GM only
sellingBolt in
CA&OR ...
>
> Mark,
>
> I share the hope.
> But I am also wondering why GM suddenly changed their roll-out
strategy
significantly
> (reducing it and making it much more non-committal) just days after
the
surprising outcome of
> the elections. Hard to believe that is a coincidence.
> And that coupled to the automaker lobbying efforts already under way
to
abolish the CARB

> mandates - where did we hear that before?
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless
>
> office +1 408 383 7626                    Skype: cor_van_de_water
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130                    private: cvandewater.info
>
> http://www.proxim.com
>
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential
and
proprietary
> information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this
message in
error, please
> delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized use, disclosure,
distribution, or copying of
> any part of this message is prohibited.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mark
Abramowitz via
EV
> Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2016 12:33 AM
> To: EVDL Administrator
> Cc: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] GM Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GM only
sellingBolt in
CA&OR ...
>
> I hope and that that you are wrong in thinking it possible that EVs
could
become unavailable.
> I expect a strong and vigorous market.
> I'm also hopeful that a surging EV market will mean that EV
conversions will
grow along with
> the main EV market.
>
> Sent from AltaMail
>
>
>  From: EVDL Administrator via EV <[hidden email]> To: Electric
Vehicle
Discussion List
> <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] GM
> Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GM only selling Bolt in CA&OR ...
> Date: 11/20/16, 12:00 AM
>
>
> History tells us that -- for better and/or worse -- what governments
do
>
> makes a big difference in whether EVs advance or retreat.
>
> Bruce is 100% correct that GM's specific history predicts their
current and
future involvement
> with EVs.  As I said a couple of weeks ago, I'm still
>
> waiting for that Chevette EV that GM promised in 1978.  I guess I'll
be
>
> waiting a lot longer.
>
> (Disclosure: That's a rhetorical statement.  Personally, I wouldn't
buy any GM
vehicle at any
> price under any circumstances.  Also, having known someone who owned a
1980
Chevette:
> yikes, noooooooooo  ....... )
>
> All that said, unless the state or fed legislators make it illegal,
the sure
way to drive electric is
> and probably aways will be to build your own.
>
> Normally that would entail converting an ICEV.
>
> I think I can safely say that EV conversion has been the EVDL's
largest and
most critical
> mission since it was first launched at sjsu.edu 25 years
> ago.
> If and when no automaker will sell you an EV here in the US, or you
can't get
the type of
> vehicle you need with a motor under the hood, drop on by the EVDL.
We'll be
here to help.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL
Information:
> http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= = = =
= = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send
a private
> message, please obtain my email address from the webpage
http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag
racing
at NEDRA
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
>
<http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20161120/93ef
> 8727/attachment.htm>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag
racing
at NEDRA
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag
racing
at NEDRA
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)


_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GM Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GM only selling Bolt in CA&OR ...

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Mark Fr
I've decided to be selfish on this issue. I put a deposit down on a BoltEV at my local Chevrolet dealer. I'm told they are expecting 100 to be delivered beginning next week (after Thanksgiving).

As I understand it, GM will be selling the BoltEV. I will not lease it. After my experience leasing the Honda EVPlus from 1997 to 2003, I will never lease a vehicle again, or purchase a Honda.  The EVPlus was an incredible car though. It was a way better electric vehicle than my 2011 Leaf.

Ed
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GM Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GM only sellingBolt in CA&OR ...

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by tomw
When you consider that Exxon Mobile, in their 2016 World Energy Outlook:
A View to 2040, (ref:
http://cdn.exxonmobil.com/~/media/global/files/outlook-for-energy/2016/2016-outlook-for-energy.pdf)
on page 62 of 80, has a graph that clearly shows conventional oil
production peaked in 2005.  The graph also shows a combination of
Conventional, New conventional, Deepwater, Oil sands and Tight oil
peaking in production around 2040, it seems very short sighted not to
develop EVs (or alternative fuel sourced vehicles).  2040 is only 23
years away and fleet turnover is roughly once every 16 years.  Also, the
remaining oil reserves are more expensive to develop.  How people get
around after the peak in 2040 is something I think GM would want a share
of that market or they grow irrelevant.

The other possibility is that someone has or is close to storing
hydrogen absorbed in a solid (or liquid) material for later release
under heat, pressure, or sound.  GM would then be hedging their bets.  
Has anybody read of any recent developments?

Tom is likely on to something.  Increasing the range of an EV from 80
miles to 238 is a significant development and there maybe problems as
Tom listed especially if it was done by increasing the Whr/kg energy
density.

On 11/20/16, 1:10 PM, tomw via EV wrote:

> A few possible reasons for the slowed introduction of the Bolt:
>
> 1) LG Chem has had a glitch in increasing battery production so cannot
> supply the planned quantities in the required time frame.
>
> 2) GM has discovered some problems with the Bolt which they do not want to
> advertise, but need to delay production to implement improvements.
>
> 3) GM (or LG Chem) has discovered some ways to significantly reduce
> production costs and want get these designed in and implemented before
> producing significant product quantity.
>
> 4) GM wants to gain field experience with Bolt ownership in a limited way to
> see what issues arise to limit warranty/recall costs.
>
> Having worked in product development quite a few years I have personally
> experienced analogs of all of these.  But, people like to speculate and
> believe what they want to believe.  Only time will tell.
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/GM-Killed-The-Bolt-Electric-Car-GM-only-selling-Bolt-in-CA-OR-tp4684542p4684555.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GM Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On 20 Nov 2016 at 11:43, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

>  If China and India and Europe and several countries of S America and
> Asia are moving to electric transportation then it is pretty irrelevant
> what happens in USA ...

I wouldn't go so far as to say "irrelevant," because the US is (at least for
the moment) a pretty large market for new vehicles.  But it's far from the
only market.  Vehicle demand is trending up in places we would have called
"third world" just a few years ago, and some of those places think that EVs
might be a good idea.

It's possible that success in rolling back EV demand in the US might prompt
the automakers to try similar strategies in other countries. Some of them
will no doubt be open to it.  Early UK legislative proposals after the
"Brexit" vote had to do with weakening environmental laws, some of which
were originally passed to comply with EU regulations.

That is likely to spread.  Radical political changes have already taken
place in Hungary and Poland.  "Brexit" style changes are also somwhere
between possible and likely over the next few elections in France, Austria,
Germany, Netherlands, and Sweden.  We could see the weakening or even the
complete breakup of the EU.  That would be a dismaying setback for
environmental law and for EVs.

I guess this all sounds kind of dire (just call me Mr Worst Case Scenario),
but still my hope is that EVs are close to some kind of critical mass
internationally.

If that's true, EVs WILL be manufactured around the world.  Despite Elon
Musk's confidence it's still a tough slog for a small upstart automaker
(look what happened to Pivco / Think), so let's hope the EV manufacturers'
list continues to include Tesla.

Which of these EVs are offered in the US will depend on many factors, from
perceived demand and profitability to impending US protectionism and
economic isolation. For example, tightening US FMVSS while loosening
emissions regulations would favor large US ICEVs at the expense of imports,
smaller vehicles, and EVs.

> besides a repeat of the 70's where the USA automakers were wiped away
> by events beyond their control due to their lack of preparation for
> change (not entirely unlike Dinosaurs).

I think that's likely, but who knows when?  OPEC was pretty successful in
throttling the US with their oil blockade, but that was 40+ years ago, and
our petroleum sources are more diverse now.  There's also that protectionist
sentiment I mentioned above.  

OTOH, big energy companies already have plenty of market control, and I sure
don't see that diminishing.  I can imagine an internal US version of OPEC,
or an Enron style cartel, manufacturing an artifical fuel shortage for the
sake of their profits, just as well as I can imagine an actual depletion of
reserves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_electricity_crisis

Also, weakening US MPG and energy efficiency requirements could trigger a
small orgy of energy consumption here.  That would hasten the "day of
petroleum reckoning."  (It would also be pretty bad news for the rest of the
world.)

Interesting times, indeed.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GM Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Solar and Wind are already cheaper than Coal in many areas
(solar not so much in Alaska, but pretty much in most southern states)
so even if forces that be want to push coal, it is a losing proposition
against the already-cheaper-and-getting-cheaper-every-year renewable
energy.

Wouldn't it be most ironical if within a few years EVs will be winning,
not because the powers that be are concerned about emissions, but simply
because oil is a losing proposition against the economic power of
electric drivetrains?
One can dream of a vision that allows us to move in the right direction,
even under the yoke of powers that want to move in the opposite
direction...

Note that the two countries that contain 1/3 of the world population
China and India are in dire need to get off of coal as they are choking
on the bad consequences of burning that much coal, that is why solar and
even EVs are getting so much promotion in those locations. The solar war
is pretty much won in that the price is low enough, they just need to
install more of it. EVs are following not because they are cheaper or
simpler, but simply because they are getting sick of the pollution
levels, similar to how choking smog in places like Los Angeles led
California to implement very strict emissions rules. Sometimes it has to
get bad before it gets better, because people wisen up when it starts
hurting...

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless
 
office +1 408 383 7626                    Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130                    private: cvandewater.info

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
this message is prohibited.


-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of EVDL
Administrator via EV
Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2016 2:08 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] GM Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car

On 20 Nov 2016 at 11:43, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

>  If China and India and Europe and several countries of S America and
> Asia are moving to electric transportation then it is pretty
irrelevant
> what happens in USA ...

I wouldn't go so far as to say "irrelevant," because the US is (at least
for
the moment) a pretty large market for new vehicles.  But it's far from
the
only market.  Vehicle demand is trending up in places we would have
called
"third world" just a few years ago, and some of those places think that
EVs
might be a good idea.

It's possible that success in rolling back EV demand in the US might
prompt
the automakers to try similar strategies in other countries. Some of
them
will no doubt be open to it.  Early UK legislative proposals after the
"Brexit" vote had to do with weakening environmental laws, some of which

were originally passed to comply with EU regulations.

That is likely to spread.  Radical political changes have already taken
place in Hungary and Poland.  "Brexit" style changes are also somwhere
between possible and likely over the next few elections in France,
Austria,
Germany, Netherlands, and Sweden.  We could see the weakening or even
the
complete breakup of the EU.  That would be a dismaying setback for
environmental law and for EVs.

I guess this all sounds kind of dire (just call me Mr Worst Case
Scenario),
but still my hope is that EVs are close to some kind of critical mass
internationally.

If that's true, EVs WILL be manufactured around the world.  Despite Elon

Musk's confidence it's still a tough slog for a small upstart automaker
(look what happened to Pivco / Think), so let's hope the EV
manufacturers'
list continues to include Tesla.

Which of these EVs are offered in the US will depend on many factors,
from
perceived demand and profitability to impending US protectionism and
economic isolation. For example, tightening US FMVSS while loosening
emissions regulations would favor large US ICEVs at the expense of
imports,
smaller vehicles, and EVs.

> besides a repeat of the 70's where the USA automakers were wiped away
> by events beyond their control due to their lack of preparation for
> change (not entirely unlike Dinosaurs).

I think that's likely, but who knows when?  OPEC was pretty successful
in
throttling the US with their oil blockade, but that was 40+ years ago,
and
our petroleum sources are more diverse now.  There's also that
protectionist
sentiment I mentioned above.  

OTOH, big energy companies already have plenty of market control, and I
sure
don't see that diminishing.  I can imagine an internal US version of
OPEC,
or an Enron style cartel, manufacturing an artifical fuel shortage for
the
sake of their profits, just as well as I can imagine an actual depletion
of
reserves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_electricity_crisis

Also, weakening US MPG and energy efficiency requirements could trigger
a
small orgy of energy consumption here.  That would hasten the "day of
petroleum reckoning."  (It would also be pretty bad news for the rest of
the
world.)

Interesting times, indeed.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GM Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GM only sellingBolt in CA&OR ...

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I'm not sure what you are implying. Chart 63 says they have known reserves for 150 years. Yes, it's more expensive but the reason production peaked is because the are switching to other sources of energy.

I grew up in Oklahoma and I have friends in the oil business. One friend has a chart of his land on the wall of his office. He said that a mile down there's oil under every state in the union. They just haven't developed a good way to get it and it costs over a million dollars to drill that deep. So I googled it and found this article.

It is true that there is more known oil deposits in North America than in the Middle East. The Bakkan field in North Dakota, for example, contains up to 500 billion barrels of oil, more than twice the known oil deposits of Saudi Arabia.
Just this past summer, a new major oil field was discovered about 250 miles off of Houston, Texas, in the Gulf of Mexico, that initial estimates put at 250 billion barrels – also more than Saudi Arabia. Besides those two fields, we have at least another 250 billion barrels under Alaska and 50 billion under and off the coast of California and billions more under just about every state in the Union. All told, we have enough oil underground in North America to furnish all of the needs of the United States for well over another century.
Most of the oil fields under the North American continent were discovered long ago. The Bakkan field, for example, was discovered back in 1951. The reason why we import oil from South America and the Middle East instead of producing our own right here is a matter of cost. In the same way that American manufacturers rely on foreign workers to manufacture products, American oil companies import oil from abroad because it is cheaper than pumping oil out of the ground here.
In the case of oil, it isn’t labor costs that play a major role in the decision to import oil into the United States. The environmental costs and the geological costs are the two major factors that make importation more attractive than domestic production. The oil under the sands of Saudi Arabia is far easier, and therefore less costly, to extract than the oil pocketed under rock beneath North Dakota.
On the environmental front, getting a permit to sink a well in North America is just slightly less difficult than acquiring tickets on the fifty-yard line for a Chicago Bears – Green Bay Packers game.

http://chiefengineer.org/?p=4046

Sent from my iPad

> On Nov 20, 2016, at 2:16 PM, Peter Eckhoff via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> When you consider that Exxon Mobile, in their 2016 World Energy Outlook: A View to 2040, (ref: http://cdn.exxonmobil.com/~/media/global/files/outlook-for-energy/2016/2016-outlook-for-energy.pdf) on page 62 of 80, has a graph that clearly shows conventional oil production peaked in 2005.  The graph also shows a combination of Conventional, New conventional, Deepwater, Oil sands and Tight oil peaking in production around 2040, it seems very short sighted not to develop EVs (or alternative fuel sourced vehicles).  2040 is only 23 years away and fleet turnover is roughly once every 16 years.  Also, the remaining oil reserves are more expensive to develop.  How people get around after the peak in 2040 is something I think GM would want a share of that market or they grow irrelevant.
>
> The other possibility is that someone has or is close to storing hydrogen absorbed in a solid (or liquid) material for later release under heat, pressure, or sound.  GM would then be hedging their bets.  Has anybody read of any recent developments?
>
> Tom is likely on to something.  Increasing the range of an EV from 80 miles to 238 is a significant development and there maybe problems as Tom listed especially if it was done by increasing the Whr/kg energy density.
>
>> On 11/20/16, 1:10 PM, tomw via EV wrote:
>> A few possible reasons for the slowed introduction of the Bolt:
>>
>> 1) LG Chem has had a glitch in increasing battery production so cannot
>> supply the planned quantities in the required time frame.
>>
>> 2) GM has discovered some problems with the Bolt which they do not want to
>> advertise, but need to delay production to implement improvements.
>>
>> 3) GM (or LG Chem) has discovered some ways to significantly reduce
>> production costs and want get these designed in and implemented before
>> producing significant product quantity.
>>
>> 4) GM wants to gain field experience with Bolt ownership in a limited way to
>> see what issues arise to limit warranty/recall costs.
>>
>> Having worked in product development quite a few years I have personally
>> experienced analogs of all of these.  But, people like to speculate and
>> believe what they want to believe.  Only time will tell.
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/GM-Killed-The-Bolt-Electric-Car-GM-only-selling-Bolt-in-CA-OR-tp4684542p4684555.html
>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> _______________________________________________
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20161121/84f05794/attachment.htm>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GM Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car : GM only sellingBolt in CA&OR ...

tomw
This post was updated on .
"Chart 63 says they have known reserves for 150 years."

Exxon Mobile has energy reserves for many years, that is true, but that doesn't mean they can maintain current production rates for that number of years. Production rate is what is important, not reserves. The production of oil is like a huge river constantly flowing to supply the power, energy per unit time, required to run the "labor saving" devices, like trucks and bulldozers, that enable our standard of living. The required flow is determined by the global population and "standard of living". Increasing either requires an increase in oil production, the flow of the river.  

A number like "150 years of reserves" usually is based on the current standard of living and global population, i.e. current usage rates, but these are both increasing exponentially as "undeveloped" countries become more developed, particularly China and India. Some people say that the population growth rate in the undeveloped countries is the problem, but around 20 people in a country with higher birth rates like Pakistan or Nigera use about as much oil as 1 person in the U.S., so actually our smaller population growth rate has a larger effect on oil consumption.

"He said that a mile down there's oil under every state in the union. They just haven't developed a good way to get it and it costs over a million dollars to drill that deep."

Oil companies have been drilling much more than a mile below the sea floor in deep water in the GoM (Gulf of Mexico) for many years, which is much more difficult and expensive than drilling that depth on land.  Those wells cost hundreds of millions.  Why would they incur that extra cost if they could just drill to the same depth on land for much lower cost?  Also, Exxon Mobil has had record spending on exploration for the past 5 years or so, but their new discoveries have been way down. They recently cut back on exploration for new oil fields for that reason, and have put more emphasis on natural gas. Why would that be the case if oil is so plentiful under the continental U.S.?

"The Bakkan field in North Dakota, for example, contains up to 500 billion barrels of oil, more than twice the known oil deposits of Saudi Arabia."

It is well know that most of the "sweet spots", those offering higher production rates, in the Bakken have already been drilled.  The "decline rate" (rate of production decline) in the Bakken is very high, with production from a well dropping by over 90% in 3 years on average. After 3 years most of those wells are "stripper wells" producing on the order of 10 barrels per day.  That, and the higher cost of fracking, is why production of "tight oil" is much more expensive than from conventional wells, many more wells have to be sunk to produce a given volume of oil.  Production from these wells is not at all like conventional oil wells, and will be less attractive as they are forced to move to drilling in the less "sweet" spots of the fields.
See e.g. http://www.postcarbon.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Hughes-Bakken-Reality-Check-Fall-2015.pdf

"The oil under the sands of Saudi Arabia is far easier, and therefore less costly, to extract than the oil pocketed under rock beneath North Dakota."

You have to drill through rock to reach all oil deposits, but conventional oil fields are typically in much more porous rock under salt domes which hold it in place. There is no need to "frac", fracture, the oil-containing rock.  Just drilling down through the dome to penetrate the porous oil-containing rock is all that is required since the oil flows much more freely through that more porous rock due to the pressure on it from the rock above - producing the "gushers" of east Texas long ago.  That is why "tight oil" is more expensive to produce.  In response to low oil prices producers have found a number of ways to reduce costs, such as fracking multiple lines from a given drilling platform, but except for in the sweetest spots it is still more expensive to produce than conventional oil.

Also keep in mind that typically less than 50% of OIP (oil in place) is recovered, even with EOR (enhanced oil recovery) techniques such as water or CO2 injection in conventional oil fields, so there will always be oil left in the ground, but that oil won't do us any good. Some have gone as high as 70% but that is not the norm.  Companies have revisited older fields to squeeze more oil out with EOR techniques depending on the market price of oil.  A bit like re-mining the "dumps" of old gold mines to extract a bit more when gold prices are high enough to make it economic.

"Most of the oil fields under the North American continent were discovered long ago. The Bakkan field, for example, was discovered back in 1951. The reason why we import oil from South America and the Middle East instead of producing our own right here is a matter of cost."

Most of the known oil fields in the WORLD were discovered long ago ( see e.g. Hubbert’s Peak, The Impending World Oil Shortage by Kenneth S. Deffeyes who worked as a petroleum engineer at Exxon for many years).  Most of the fields in the middle east were discovered prior to 1950. Saudia Arabia's largest field has been producing for over half a century. Yes, the reason we import oil is oil is "fungible", meaning it sells on a global market and is readily traded on exchanges.  Price is set on the margin, i.e., it is set by the cost to produce the last (highest cost) required barrel to meet demand. Currently demand can be met mostly with much lower cost conventional oil and the more productive (so lower cost) "non-conventional" wells.

Production  of oil peaked due to demand destruction by the high oil prices in the years leading up to the Great Recession in 2008. Those higher prices made production of unconventional oil such as ‘tight oil” in the Bakken economic to produce, so the rush to N. Dakota began.  That increased U.S. production for a while, but was made uneconomic by OPEC refusing to reduce their production to stop a decrease in oil prices due to the increased production.  They have a competitive advantage in that their production costs from their conventional oil fields is much lower than those for tight oil or bitumen ("tar sands" in Canada).  Those latter sources have become less economic so they have decreased production.

Peak production of 9.77 million barrels per day in the U.S. was reached in 1970, Prudhoe Bay in Alaska contributed to a secondary peak in 1985 of 9.1 million barrels per day, the Bakken, Eagleford, and other tight oil sources contributed to a third, short-lived, peak of around 6.5 million barrels per day (they contributed less than half this) before lower prices due to increased supply resulted in a decrease in production.

A couple other things to keep in mind: EROEI (energy return on energy invested) of unconventional oil is lower than that of conventional oil, meaning it requires more energy to produce a given amount of unconventional oil compare to conventional, not only more dollars.  That means the net energy available from a given volume of produced oil for supporting a given standard of living is less.  As we "work our way up the tree" picking higher hanging fruit, more expensive to produce oil, the current U.S. energy use per capita will no longer be supportable.  Alternative energy sources are even worse in this regard (lower EROEI), so unless we discover some new unbounded lower cost, higher EROI energy source our energy use per capita will be forced to decline. In that case increasing energy efficiency is the only way to maintain our standard of living.

The other is that global oil consumption is around 30 billion barrels per year, or about 80 million barrels per day in round numbers. The U.S. use has varied the past decade between about 18 and 20 million barrels per day.  So a 500 billion barrel source (meaning a field that can produce 500 billion barrels, not OIP, or Resources), could supply global demand for about 17 years. But global population growth is around 2% so the doubling time is around 35 years. Then 35 years from now, all other things equal, we will require twice as much oil production, 60 billion barrels per year, or put another way, that 500 billion barrels would only supply demand for about 8-9 years.  Of course everything else will very likely not remain equal.  I think we could manage the transition to lower EROI energy sources without large sacrifices in standard of living if we make the correct choices such as greatly improving our efficiency in the use of energy.   We have some time to make the transition as we are not on the verge of “running out of oil”, but as Vaclav Smil has detailed, historically it has taken around 50 years to make a transition to a new energy source for a number of reasons.  One is the required change in infrastructure, another is the change is driven by market forces, i.e. it has to be economic.  Climate change is a good example.  It is a dire threat, but so far economics has largely trumped concern for that threat.

As demand for oil increases and gets close to outstripping supply, prices will increase.  That will make it even more difficult to finance the changes necessary to transition to other sources.

For those interested, currently the U.S. gets very little oil from Saudi Arabia. We get most of ours from domestic sources, Canada, and Mexico.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GM Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
 All,
I'm assuming EVerybody caught this story about the Alliance of Automobile
Manufacturers, which includes GM and Toyota?

http://www.autonews.com/article/20161110/OEM11/161119989/automakers-reach-out-to-trump-on-regulation-seek-review-of-fuel

--
Suck Amps,
Dave "Battery Boy" Hawkins
Check out our website!
http://bbevs.com/
Like us on the Facebook!
https://www.facebook.com/batteryboyevs
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20161122/a24a9422/attachment.htm>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GM Killed The (Bolt) Electric Car

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On 22 Nov 2016 at 10:56, David "Battery Boy" Hawkins via EV wrote:

> I'm assuming EVerybody caught this story about the Alliance of Automobile
> Manufacturers, which includes GM and Toyota?

'Fraid so. :-(

Threads started on the 11th and 12th:

http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html#nabble-td4684434

http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html#nabble-td4684425

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)