George W. Bush--Father of the modem electric car

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George W. Bush--Father of the modem electric car

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This is something I didn't give much thought to at the time.  Kind of a how do you like me now situation.. I found this article when I searched "Carl Rove seen in an electric car." That was after seeing Americans for Prosperity bashing CAFE standards on the PBS News Hour last Thursday.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/05/26/george-w-bush-father-modern-electric-car.html
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(dated): George W. Bush--Father of the modem electric car

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[Lawrence posted:  (dated)
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/05/26/george-w-bush-father-modern-electric-car.html
May 26, 2011 ... raised CAFE requirements, Bush did ... explicitly linked
gas mileage and electric cars with national security ... Bush and Congress
underwrote $25 billion in loans that's translated directly into the Leaf,
the Volt (pih), Ford's electric Focus, the Think City, and Tesla (EV) and
Fisker's (pih) leap from paper to plant ...
 -(Marty Padgett, High Gear Media)
]


http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Gimme-gimme-gimme-some-of-your-weet-billion-tp3246025.html
Gimme gimme gimme some of your $weet billion$
.... "This is all about innovation and increasing fuel efficiency and
technology." The low-cost retooling loan would allow Chrysler to reduce the
$1 billion in annual interest it is paying on its federal bailout. President
George W. Bush approved funding for the program in September 2008. GM and...
Jan 29, 2011


http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-10k-EV-Rebate-tp4401456.html
EVLN: $10k EV Rebate
... rebate for the purchase of electric and other green-tech vehicles. We’re
going to focus on that proposal, because it would dramatically change the
dynamic for electric vehicles. Right now, the $7,500 tax rebate (enacted by
George W. Bush) means that buyers pay the full price of a vehicle...
Feb 19, 2012


http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=George+Bush
search evdl archive on  George Bush




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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Re: George W. Bush--Father of the modem electric car

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You are correct. Without the rebate all we would have would be Tesla’s of wait the rest of the EVs are cheap quickly done solutions to meet the standards. I am not sure he did us any favors. Elon is certainly not a fan of the tax credit. He says it hurts his sales and I agree.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 7, 2018, at 8:38 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> This is something I didn't give much thought to at the time.  Kind of a how do you like me now situation.. I found this article when I searched "Carl Rove seen in an electric car." That was after seeing Americans for Prosperity bashing CAFE standards on the PBS News Hour last Thursday.
> http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/05/26/george-w-bush-father-modern-electric-car.html
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Re: George W. Bush--Father of the modem electric car

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Hmmmm.  I don't agree.  Without the rebate I won't own two Leafs.  Lawrence Rhodes

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
 
  On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 4:44 AM, paul dove<[hidden email]> wrote:   You are correct. Without the rebate all we would have would be Tesla’s of wait the rest of the EVs are cheap quickly done solutions to meet the standards. I am not sure he did us any favors. Elon is certainly not a fan of the tax credit. He says it hurts his sales and I agree.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 7, 2018, at 8:38 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> This is something I didn't give much thought to at the time.  Kind of a how do you like me now situation.. I found this article when I searched "Carl Rove seen in an electric car." That was after seeing Americans for Prosperity bashing CAFE standards on the PBS News Hour last Thursday.
> http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/05/26/george-w-bush-father-modern-electric-car.html
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Re: George W. Bush--Father of the modem electric car

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That is what I said.


      From: Lawrence Rhodes <[hidden email]>
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Cc: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
 Sent: Wednesday, August 8, 2018 7:45 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] George W. Bush--Father of the modem electric car
   
Hmmmm.  I don't agree.  Without the rebate I won't own two Leafs.  Lawrence Rhodes

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
 
  On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 4:44 AM, paul dove<[hidden email]> wrote:   You are correct. Without the rebate all we would have would be Tesla’s of wait the rest of the EVs are cheap quickly done solutions to meet the standards. I am not sure he did us any favors. Elon is certainly not a fan of the tax credit. He says it hurts his sales and I agree.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 7, 2018, at 8:38 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> This is something I didn't give much thought to at the time.  Kind of a how do you like me now situation.. I found this article when I searched "Carl Rove seen in an electric car." That was after seeing Americans for Prosperity bashing CAFE standards on the PBS News Hour last Thursday.
> http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/05/26/george-w-bush-father-modern-electric-car.html
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Re: George W. Bush--Father of the modem electric car

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On 08/08/2018 07:45 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
> Hmmmm.  I don't agree.  Without the rebate I won't own two Leafs.  Lawrence Rhodes

Without the tax credit, I would not own two imievs.  Probably not even
one.  The tax credit was nearly half the price of the 2nd imiev and
nearly one third the price of the first.  For Teslas, the tax credit is
no more than about 10% of the price.

Tesla has been at a disadvantage compared to lower priced EVs.  And now
that they are poised to produce an EV priced where the tax credit would
be significant, their eligibility is going away.

>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
>  
>    On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 4:44 AM, paul dove<[hidden email]> wrote:   You are correct. Without the rebate all we would have would be Tesla’s of wait the rest of the EVs are cheap quickly done solutions to meet the standards. I am not sure he did us any favors. Elon is certainly not a fan of the tax credit. He says it hurts his sales and I agree.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Aug 7, 2018, at 8:38 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> This is something I didn't give much thought to at the time.  Kind of a how do you like me now situation.. I found this article when I searched "Carl Rove seen in an electric car." That was after seeing Americans for Prosperity bashing CAFE standards on the PBS News Hour last Thursday.
>> http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/05/26/george-w-bush-father-modern-electric-car.html
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Re: George W. Bush--Father of the modem electric car

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Wow! That was my point.

These are compliance cars and not very good cars at that. They were forced top make them and wouldn't have sold hardly any without the incentive.
Heck, Nissan admitted that their highest selling city was Atlanta. Georgia had a $5000 tax credit on top of the $7500. As soon as they remove it sales will go to zero because it is a false economy. people always want something cheap or free.

I own a 1-MiEV as well because I live in Alabama and I can go to Atlanta and buy a used one for $5000 but i also own a Model 3 and there is no comparison. Tesla's will sell no matter what the price because they are good cars. Nissan said for years they were loosing money on every car along with the other manufacturers.


      From: Willie via EV <[hidden email]>
 To: [hidden email]
Cc: Willie <[hidden email]>
 Sent: Wednesday, August 8, 2018 8:44 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] George W. Bush--Father of the modem electric car
   


On 08/08/2018 07:45 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
> Hmmmm.  I don't agree.  Without the rebate I won't own two Leafs.  Lawrence Rhodes

Without the tax credit, I would not own two imievs.  Probably not even
one.  The tax credit was nearly half the price of the 2nd imiev and
nearly one third the price of the first.  For Teslas, the tax credit is
no more than about 10% of the price.

Tesla has been at a disadvantage compared to lower priced EVs.  And now
that they are poised to produce an EV priced where the tax credit would
be significant, their eligibility is going away.

>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

>    On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 4:44 AM, paul dove<[hidden email]> wrote:  You are correct. Without the rebate all we would have would be Tesla’s of wait the rest of the EVs are cheap quickly done solutions to meet the standards. I am not sure he did us any favors. Elon is certainly not a fan of the tax credit. He says it hurts his sales and I agree.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Aug 7, 2018, at 8:38 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> This is something I didn't give much thought to at the time.  Kind of a how do you like me now situation.. I found this article when I searched "Carl Rove seen in an electric car." That was after seeing Americans for Prosperity bashing CAFE standards on the PBS News Hour last Thursday.
>> http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/05/26/george-w-bush-father-modern-electric-car.html
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Re: George W. Bush--Father of the modem electric car

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On 08/08/2018 08:52 AM, paul dove wrote:

> Wow! That was my point.
>
> These are compliance cars and not very good cars at that. They were
> forced top make them and wouldn't have sold hardly any without the
> incentive.
>
> Heck, Nissan admitted that their highest selling city was Atlanta.
> Georgia had a $5000 tax credit on top of the $7500. As soon as they
> remove it sales will go to zero because it is a false economy. people
> always want something cheap or free.
>
> I own a 1-MiEV as well because I live in Alabama and I can go to Atlanta
> and buy a used one for $5000 but i also own a Model 3 and there is no
> comparison. Tesla's will sell no matter what the price because they are
> good cars. Nissan said for years they were loosing money on every car
> along with the other manufacturers.

No argument here.  Though I love my imievs and drive them when ever the
range will allow.  The Leaf would be an ok car were it not for the
crappy short life batteries and poor support.  No such trouble with
imievs.  Yet.

Obviously, the compliance EV makers COULD have followed Tesla's path:
make a car with more generous range AND provide charging infrastructure.
  Not to mention superior support.


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Re: George W. Bush--Father of the modem electric car

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
> Hmmmm.  I don't agree.  Without the rebate I won't own two Leafs.  Lawrence Rhodes

Me too. Without the rebates and CA mandates, the automakers would never
have produced any EVs.

When a technology has a monopolistic "lock" on the market, and benefits
from all sorts of economies of scale and government incentives, there is
no way for a new technology to break into the market. The rebates and
mandates were necessary to allow change to even be possible.

--
There is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a
little worse and sell a little cheaper. Those who consider price
alone are that person's lawful prey. -- John Ruskin
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: George W. Bush--Father of the modem electric car

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Tesla started in 2003 well before Bushes action in 2008.
It was going to happen even without the government.

The government just impeded real progress by creating a false economy.

Remember Bush was the one who brought us $100,000 rebate if you buy a Humvee 5 years before the $7500 EV credit.


      From: Lee Hart via EV <[hidden email]>
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Cc: Lee Hart <[hidden email]>
 Sent: Wednesday, August 8, 2018 12:47 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] George W. Bush--Father of the modem electric car
   
Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
> Hmmmm.  I don't agree.  Without the rebate I won't own two Leafs.  Lawrence Rhodes

Me too. Without the rebates and CA mandates, the automakers would never
have produced any EVs.

When a technology has a monopolistic "lock" on the market, and benefits
from all sorts of economies of scale and government incentives, there is
no way for a new technology to break into the market. The rebates and
mandates were necessary to allow change to even be possible.

--
There is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a
little worse and sell a little cheaper. Those who consider price
alone are that person's lawful prey. -- John Ruskin
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: George W. Bush--Father of the modem electric car

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Really, it's hard to say. Tesla's high end models would be fine, along
with other makers who have added EVs to their luxury models. But did the
tax credit accelerate Nissan's and GM's entry to market? And, later,
others?

The other factor playing is the fuel economy mandates. Personally, I
think that is a more effective tool, requiring models across the
spectrum to be more efficient. You can't meet the mandate just by
selling 1% EVs. The average has to come from, well, the average sale. At
first, this might mean substantially higher manufacturing costs, but as
others have pointed out, economy of scale would quickly bring that down.

Peri

------ Original Message ------
From: "paul dove via EV" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "paul dove" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 08-Aug-18 11:00:54 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] George W. Bush--Father of the modem electric car

>Tesla started in 2003 well before Bushes action in 2008.
>It was going to happen even without the government.
>
>The government just impeded real progress by creating a false economy.
>
>Remember Bush was the one who brought us $100,000 rebate if you buy a
>Humvee 5 years before the $7500 EV credit.
>
>
>      From: Lee Hart via EV <[hidden email]>
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
>Cc: Lee Hart <[hidden email]>
>Sent: Wednesday, August 8, 2018 12:47 PM
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] George W. Bush--Father of the modem electric car
>
>Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
>>Hmmmm.  I don't agree.  Without the rebate I won't own two Leafs.  
>>Lawrence Rhodes
>
>Me too. Without the rebates and CA mandates, the automakers would never
>have produced any EVs.
>
>When a technology has a monopolistic "lock" on the market, and benefits
>from all sorts of economies of scale and government incentives, there
>is
>no way for a new technology to break into the market. The rebates and
>mandates were necessary to allow change to even be possible.
>
>--
>There is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a
>little worse and sell a little cheaper. Those who consider price
>alone are that person's lawful prey. -- John Ruskin
>--
>Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
>_______________________________________________
>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
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>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
>
>
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Re: George W. Bush--Father of the modem electric car

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Sorry, I can't agree. To me, this plays just like the usual anti-EV, anti-
government, anti-anything-that-slightly-diminishes-my-profits propaganda
that the deregulation fanatics constantly spout.  

I'm no fan of Elon Musk, but I can't deny that he's something exceedingly
rare in the corporate world: he actually has a few goals that don't focus on
making as much money as possible in the least amount of time.

But in general, businesses don't do what's good for all of us.  Often they
don't even do what's good for themselves in the long run.  We as a society
have bought into the idea that business's only responsibility is the
quarterly bottom line, and making dividends for shareholders.  

That's only gotten worse in the last 4 decades of politicians chanting
"Greed is good," "It's your money," and "Government is the problem."

Since the only thing that business and people understand is money, the only
way to get them to do what's right is to PAY them for it.  

That's what properly designed subsides do.

For an example of how to do that right, look at Norway's EV subsidies.  For
an example of how to do it wrong, look at the US's petroleum subsidies and
tax credits.

As long as we're gushing out corporate welfare to the oil companies, I don't
see why we shouldn't trickle out a little cash to people in EV subsidies, to
help counter some of the massive damage that oil does to our world.  

I'm not saying that subsidies and other incentives are perfect answers every
time.  Sometimes they have unintended consequences.  Grifters and sharpsters
will always find the loopholes legislators leave in.  But that doesn't mean
we shouldn't ever try to make things better by using them.

The "invisible hand" the libertarians like to talk about can also be a fist,
crushing people and the environment in its blind pursuit of maximum profit
at any cost.  That's why we'll always need governments and legislation.  

We wouldn't be where we are with EVs worldwide, if not for the subsidies.  
There may come a day when we can ease off and phase them out, but that time
isn't here yet.  Don't let anyone convince you otherwise.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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