Getting Around Energy Density by Tethering - EVs For Agriculture

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Getting Around Energy Density by Tethering - EVs For Agriculture

Martin WINLOW
Dear List,

I was having a chat recently at work (which is nothing whatsoever to do with EVs!) about how vehicles that traditionally use lots of energy would ever be able to switch to electric power due to limitations on energy density.  Fuel cell tractors came up amongst other things and then one of my colleagues who, on learning of the enormous amounts of power required by combine harvesters and plough-pulling tractors, jokingly suggested using 'a very long extension lead'.  Whilst he is an ill-informed bumpkin, the thought did occur that in an agricultural context powering machines directly from the grid might not be so daft.  I immediately thought of those enormous irrigation contraptions that work their way up and down huge fields, laying and unlaying the hose that supplies the irrigation water as it goes.  Could not the same technique be applied to tractors etc?  Each field would have a connection point with power brought in either above or below ground in the 'usual' way.

An alternative idea would be to have mobile battery swap facilities connected to the grid in each field and be moved from field to field as the work progressed.

Just a thought!

MW
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Re: Getting Around Energy Density by Tethering - EVs For Agriculture

EVDL Administrator
On 21 Feb 2014 at 9:49, Martin WINLOW wrote:

> the thought did occur that in an agricultural context powering machines
> directly from the grid might not be so daft.  

Not so daft.  I dimly recall hearing of a fellow with a GE Elec-trac tractor
who powered it with a long extension cord.  IIRC he had a receptacle in the
middle of his yard and he mowed from the middle out, paying out cable as he
mowed.

Aren't mining vehicles powered from huge drop cables?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: Getting Around Energy Density by Tethering - EVs For Agriculture

brucedp5
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Martin WINLOW
Tethered electrically driven Ag vehicles/equipment is not new.
In areas of the U.S. where rainfall is not when and where you want it,
farmers may opt to use ground water pumped into a central pivot water
system
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_pivot_irrigation#Overview
[video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTluHs-PCT0
Center Pivot irrigation
TRAXCO· Oct 1, 2010
http://www.traxco.com - Center pivot systems were born to save human
labor, evolved so fast, adjusting to the expansion of human knowledge.
Nowadays, center Pivots are accepted as a method of water application
that promotes efficient water use. Some others describe them as machines
that could make it rain anytime we needed it to. The sprinkling sound of
a center pivot system is the rhythm of many farms around the world.
]

Using Google maps in satellite mode, see
http://goo.gl/maps/hhweN
The circles are using a central pivot irrigation system. In that
example, it is an arid region, but there is ample water flowing down the
nearby Colorado River to tap into.

...
On David's comment about grid powered mining EVs, see (half-way down the
page)
http://insideevs.com/electric-vehicles-go-underground-way-underground/
 ... Svedlung: The loaders are hundred percent electric and they’re
 powered by cable directly off the grid. The working area of mining
 loaders is usually quite confined, so it can run [off] a cable ...


{brucedp.150m.com}



-
On Fri, Feb 21, 2014, at 01:49 AM, Martin WINLOW wrote:
> Dear List,
>
> I was having a chat recently at work (which is nothing whatsoever to do
> with EVs!) about how vehicles that traditionally use lots of energy would
> ever be able to switch to electric power due to limitations on energy
> density.  Fuel cell tractors came up amongst other things and then one of
> my colleagues who, on learning of the enormous amounts of power required
> by combine harvesters and plough-pulling tractors, jokingly suggested
> using 'a very long extension lead'.  Whilst he is an ill-informed
> bumpkin, the thought did occur that in an agricultural context powering
> machines directly from the grid might not be so daft.  I immediately
> thought of those enormous irrigation contraptions that work their way up
> and down huge fields, laying and unlaying the hose that supplies the
> irrigation water as it goes.  Could not the same technique be applied to
> tractors etc?  Each field would have a connection point with power
> brought in either above or below ground in the 'usual' way.
>
> An alternative idea would be to have mobile battery swap facilities
> connected to the grid in each field and be moved from field to field as
> the work progressed.
-

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - Faster than the air-speed velocity of an
                          unladen european swallow

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Re: Getting Around Energy Density by Tethering - EVs For Agriculture

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by EVDL Administrator
EVDL Administrator wrote:
>> the thought did occur that in an agricultural context powering machines
>> directly from the grid might not be so daft.

> Not so daft.  I dimly recall hearing of a fellow with a GE Elec-trac tractor
> who powered it with a long extension cord.  IIRC he had a receptacle in the
> middle of his yard and he mowed from the middle out, paying out cable as he
> mowed.
>
> Aren't mining vehicles powered from huge drop cables?

I recall a farmer who electrified his tractor, and ran a huge "extension
cord" to power it.

Some mines do indeed run vehicles from big "extension cords". I toured
on of the big taconite mines in northern Minnesota, and their huge
shovels were powered that way. The cord was as big around as your arm!

--
A good scientist is a person with original ideas. A good engineer is
a person who makes a design that works with as few original ideas as
possible. There are no prima donnas in engineering. -- Freeman Dyson
--
Lee Hart -- see my EVs and projects at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/
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Re: Getting Around Energy Density by Tethering - EVs For Agriculture

Peter Eckhoff
In reply to this post by brucedp5
I don't like pouring cold water on a brain storming session, but I think at some point, we have to ask: "Is it doable?"

When you are in the middle of eastern Montana, the nearest electric utility line could be miles from the combine. The cord would be a PITA to move. It is one of the reasons I switched from a corded to cordless mower.  

Combines running off the fermented alcohol from last year's crop might be a better option.  Also, at the end of a successful combine run, the combine tanks might be dipped into to commence a celebration. This as opposed to winding up miles of extension cord.

> On Feb 21, 2014, at 10:25 AM, Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Tethered electrically driven Ag vehicles/equipment is not new.
> In areas of the U.S. where rainfall is not when and where you want it,
> farmers may opt to use ground water pumped into a central pivot water
> system
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_pivot_irrigation#Overview
> [video
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTluHs-PCT0
> Center Pivot irrigation
> TRAXCO· oct 1, 2010
> http://www.traxco.com - Center pivot systems were born to save human
> labor, evolved so fast, adjusting to the expansion of human knowledge.
> Nowadays, center Pivots are accepted as a method of water application
> that promotes efficient water use. Some others describe them as machines
> that could make it rain anytime we needed it to. The sprinkling sound of
> a center pivot system is the rhythm of many farms around the world.
> ]
>
> Using Google maps in satellite mode, see
> http://goo.gl/maps/hhweN
> The circles are using a central pivot irrigation system. In that
> example, it is an arid region, but there is ample water flowing down the
> nearby Colorado River to tap into.
>
> ...
> On David comment on grid powered mining EVs, see (half-way down the
> page)
> http://insideevs.com/electric-vehicles-go-underground-way-underground/
> ... Svedlung: The loaders are hundred percent electric and they’re
> powered by cable directly off the grid. The working area of mining
> loaders is usually quite confined, so it can run [off] a cable ...
>
>
> {brucedp.150m.com}
>
>
>
> -
>> On Fri, Feb 21, 2014, at 01:49 AM, Martin WINLOW wrote:
>> Dear List,
>>
>> I was having a chat recently at work (which is nothing whatsoever to do
>> with EVs!) about how vehicles that traditionally use lots of energy would
>> ever be able to switch to electric power due to limitations on energy
>> density.  Fuel cell tractors came up amongst other things and then one of
>> my colleagues who, on learning of the enormous amounts of power required
>> by combine harvesters and plough-pulling tractors, jokingly suggested
>> using 'a very long extension lead'.  Whilst he is an ill-informed
>> bumpkin, the thought did occur that in an agricultural context powering
>> machines directly from the grid might not be so daft.  I immediately
>> thought of those enormous irrigation contraptions that work their way up
>> and down huge fields, laying and unlaying the hose that supplies the
>> irrigation water as it goes.  Could not the same technique be applied to
>> tractors etc?  Each field would have a connection point with power
>> brought in either above or below ground in the 'usual' way.
>>
>> An alternative idea would be to have mobile battery swap facilities
>> connected to the grid in each field and be moved from field to field as
>> the work progressed.
> -
>
> --
> http://www.fastmail.fm - Faster than the air-speed velocity of an
>                          unladen european swallow
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>
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Re: Getting Around Energy Density by Tethering - EVs For Agriculture

Lee Hart
Peter Eckhoff wrote:
> When you are in the middle of eastern Montana, the nearest electric
> utility line could be miles from the combine.

Not likely. Most farms are highly automated, and electric power is
everywhere. The pumps in the middle of those fields are electrically driven.

> The cord would be a PITA to move.

True, it's a challenge. The farm that I saw using a corded tractor had a
big pole in the middle of the field, where the power was. The tractor
had a large spool of wire mounted on top of it. The tractor drove in
circles around the pole, unrolling the wire from the spool as it went
around. The wire was thus airborne, and both provided power and steered
the tractor.

> Combines running off the fermented alcohol from last year's crop
> might be a better option.  Also, at the end of a successful combine
> run, the combine tanks might be dipped into to commence a
> celebration. This as opposed to winding up miles of extension cord.

In the USA, most farm tractors run on diesel. Even if they make ethanol,
they don't run their tractors on it. This has led to debates about the
sense of raising corn to make ethanol, where the farm equipment burns
more fuel than the field produces.

--
A good scientist is a person with original ideas. A good engineer is
a person who makes a design that works with as few original ideas as
possible. There are no prima donnas in engineering. -- Freeman Dyson
--
Lee Hart -- see my EVs and projects at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/
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Re: Getting Around Energy Density by Tethering - EVs For Agriculture

Bill Dube
Electric coal mining equipment is cord-connected. Even enormous
draglines ("steam" shovels on steroids) are typically cord connected
with 13 kV cables. It is a mature science. Coal mining equipment has
been electric powered since the early 1900's. Specialized cables, reels,
transformers, and equipment for the mining industry. Easily transferable
technology to agriculture.

They typically put a reel on the back of the mining machine that pays
out (or pulls in) the cable as needed. They have a "load center"
transformer that is moved around as the mining process proceeds.

Electric shuttle car for underground coal transport from working face:
http://www.undergroundcoal.com.au/fundamentals/11_face.aspx

Nifty tutorial on cables for mining EVs:
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/mining/content/deratingfactors.html

Dragline cable:
http://www.miningphoto.com/details/2140/dragline_working_in_background_removing_overburden_with_drill_rigs_drilling_blas

Bill Dube'
(Used to work as an Electrical Inspection intern for the Mine Safety and
Health Administration, MSHA)
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Re: Getting Around Energy Density by Tethering - EVs For Agriculture

Peter Gabrielsson
In reply to this post by Martin WINLOW
Out of curiosity I looked up the diesel fuel consumption of Combines. It
ranges from 1-1.6 gallons per acre. Which roughly would translate to 12-20
kWh of electricity per acre. So for a 100 Acre field you'd need  15 to 25
tesla battery packs. Yikes.

On the other hand you'd need a 1200 ft long cord for a 100Acre round field
presuming the center pivot is used.

I bet those combines are already very efficient, running at a constant load
most of the time. There are some applications where using liquid dino fuels
just makes a ton of sense, large scale farming is probably one of them.







On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 1:49 AM, Martin WINLOW <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Dear List,
>
> I was having a chat recently at work (which is nothing whatsoever to do
> with EVs!) about how vehicles that traditionally use lots of energy would
> ever be able to switch to electric power due to limitations on energy
> density.  Fuel cell tractors came up amongst other things and then one of
> my colleagues who, on learning of the enormous amounts of power required by
> combine harvesters and plough-pulling tractors, jokingly suggested using 'a
> very long extension lead'.  Whilst he is an ill-informed bumpkin, the
> thought did occur that in an agricultural context powering machines
> directly from the grid might not be so daft.  I immediately thought of
> those enormous irrigation contraptions that work their way up and down huge
> fields, laying and unlaying the hose that supplies the irrigation water as
> it goes.  Could not the same technique be applied to tractors etc?  Each
> field would have a connection point with power brought in either above or
> below ground in the 'usual' way.
>
> An alternative idea would be to have mobile battery swap facilities
> connected to the grid in each field and be moved from field to field as the
> work progressed.
>
> Just a thought!
>
> MW
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>


--
www.electric-lemon.com
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Re: Getting Around Energy Density by Tethering - EVs For Agriculture

Michael Ross
With custom harvesting where they start in Canada (or Siberia) with a new
combine and work their way south through the season and sell the machine at
the end, the logistics would not readily support tethering.

The combines may work with a semi-trailer driving along side to catch the
resulting product, so much tonnage is harvested with wide decks that no
hopper could possible hold it all on board the unit.  I was working on
controls for Deere harvesters in the mid 90's and they were trying to work
out how to run 50 foot wide decks.   Optimally you they would like to be
able to hold in a hopper enough product to get up the row and back to
unload and start again - if the trucks could not manage the side by side
thing.  Logistically a very trick product to design.  They make these long
decks so they can be tilted a couple different ways so they can stay at the
exact correct height for maximum harvest.  I got to drive one with a 36'
deck cutting soybeans for a short time.  Very interesting experience.

These machines cost a million bucks plus and were worn out in one year.  Or
too worn for this magnitude of work.  They can't have machines breaking
down at all or they can't pay them off and make a profit too.

In this sort of environment tethering sounds very hard to sell.  Maybe for
much smaller operations, but then the money available to spend on them is
less.


On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 1:21 PM, Peter Gabrielsson <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Out of curiosity I looked up the diesel fuel consumption of Combines. It
> ranges from 1-1.6 gallons per acre. Which roughly would translate to 12-20
> kWh of electricity per acre. So for a 100 Acre field you'd need  15 to 25
> tesla battery packs. Yikes.
>
> On the other hand you'd need a 1200 ft long cord for a 100Acre round field
> presuming the center pivot is used.
>
> I bet those combines are already very efficient, running at a constant load
> most of the time. There are some applications where using liquid dino fuels
> just makes a ton of sense, large scale farming is probably one of them.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 1:49 AM, Martin WINLOW <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Dear List,
> >
> > I was having a chat recently at work (which is nothing whatsoever to do
> > with EVs!) about how vehicles that traditionally use lots of energy would
> > ever be able to switch to electric power due to limitations on energy
> > density.  Fuel cell tractors came up amongst other things and then one of
> > my colleagues who, on learning of the enormous amounts of power required
> by
> > combine harvesters and plough-pulling tractors, jokingly suggested using
> 'a
> > very long extension lead'.  Whilst he is an ill-informed bumpkin, the
> > thought did occur that in an agricultural context powering machines
> > directly from the grid might not be so daft.  I immediately thought of
> > those enormous irrigation contraptions that work their way up and down
> huge
> > fields, laying and unlaying the hose that supplies the irrigation water
> as
> > it goes.  Could not the same technique be applied to tractors etc?  Each
> > field would have a connection point with power brought in either above or
> > below ground in the 'usual' way.
> >
> > An alternative idea would be to have mobile battery swap facilities
> > connected to the grid in each field and be moved from field to field as
> the
> > work progressed.
> >
> > Just a thought!
> >
> > MW
> > _______________________________________________
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> www.electric-lemon.com
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>


--
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
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A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
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Re: Getting Around Energy Density by Tethering - EVs For Agriculture

gtyler54
In reply to this post by Martin WINLOW
An old idea, but Auckland university is behind a project to inductively
couple power to cars on Auckland's motorways. I tried to get on board for
this but they could not see how someone over 60 could be any use.... that
would work for this application, someone I worked with not long ago was
involved, worked for a company in Germany that made them. They transferred
150kw this way at 85% efficiency.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Martin WINLOW
Sent: Friday, 21 February 2014 10:50 p.m.
To: EVDL Post Message
Subject: [EVDL] Getting Around Energy Density by Tethering - EVs For
Agriculture

Dear List,

I was having a chat recently at work (which is nothing whatsoever to do with
EVs!) about how vehicles that traditionally use lots of energy would ever be
able to switch to electric power due to limitations on energy density.  Fuel
cell tractors came up amongst other things and then one of my colleagues
who, on learning of the enormous amounts of power required by combine
harvesters and plough-pulling tractors, jokingly suggested using 'a very
long extension lead'.  Whilst he is an ill-informed bumpkin, the thought did
occur that in an agricultural context powering machines directly from the
grid might not be so daft.  I immediately thought of those enormous
irrigation contraptions that work their way up and down huge fields, laying
and unlaying the hose that supplies the irrigation water as it goes.  Could
not the same technique be applied to tractors etc?  Each field would have a
connection point with power brought in either above or below ground in the
'usual' way.

An alternative idea would be to have mobile battery swap facilities
connected to the grid in each field and be moved from field to field as the
work progressed.

Just a thought!

MW
_______________________________________________
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(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)


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Re: Getting Around Energy Density by Tethering - EVs For Agriculture

Lee Hart
George Tyler wrote:
> An old idea, but Auckland university is behind a project to inductively
> couple power to cars on Auckland's motorways. I tried to get on board for
> this but they could not see how someone over 60 could be any use...

Of course not. You might remind them that trains have been electrified
for 100 years with "third rails". Or that city buses have been running
on overhead catenaries for almost that long. Or that amusement parks
have had bumper cars with an electric floor and an overhead mesh since
the 1950's. These are all examples of practical mass produced "tethered"
electric vehicles, designed by our grandfathers and great-grandfathers. :-)

--
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any
good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats. -- Howard Aiken
--
Lee Hart -- see my EV projects and Balancer at
www.sunrise-ev.com/Balancer.htm
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Re: Getting Around Energy Density by Tethering - EVs For Agriculture

Martin WINLOW
In reply to this post by Peter Eckhoff
Ahhh, Peter,

I like *your* idea *much* better!

MW


On 21 Feb 2014, at 15:58, Peter Eckhoff wrote:

> I don't like pouring cold water on a brain storming session, but I think at some point, we have to ask: "Is it doable?"
>
> When you are in the middle of eastern Montana, the nearest electric utility line could be miles from the combine. The cord would be a PITA to move. It is one of the reasons I switched from a corded to cordless mower.  
>
> Combines running off the fermented alcohol from last year's crop might be a better option.  Also, at the end of a successful combine run, the combine tanks might be dipped into to commence a celebration. This as opposed to winding up miles of extension cord.
>
>> On Feb 21, 2014, at 10:25 AM, Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Tethered electrically driven Ag vehicles/equipment is not new.
>> In areas of the U.S. where rainfall is not when and where you want it,
>> farmers may opt to use ground water pumped into a central pivot water
>> system
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_pivot_irrigation#Overview
>> [video
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTluHs-PCT0
>> Center Pivot irrigation
>>
>>
>> -
>>> On Fri, Feb 21, 2014, at 01:49 AM, Martin WINLOW wrote:
>>> Dear List,
>>>
>>> I was having a chat recently at work (which is nothing whatsoever to do
>>> with EVs!) about how vehicles that traditionally use lots of energy would
>>> ever be able to switch to electric power due to limitations on energy
>>> density.  Fuel cell tractors came up amongst other things and then one of
>>> my colleagues who, on learning of the enormous amounts of power required
>>> by combine harvesters and plough-pulling tractors, jokingly suggested
>>> using 'a very long extension lead'.  Whilst he is an ill-informed
>>> bumpkin, the thought did occur that in an agricultural context powering
>>> machines directly from the grid might not be so daft.  I immediately
>>> thought of those enormous irrigation contraptions that work their way up
>>> and down huge fields, laying and unlaying the hose that supplies the
>>> irrigation water as it goes.  Could not the same technique be applied to
>>> tractors etc?  Each field would have a connection point with power
>>> brought in either above or below ground in the 'usual' way.
>>>
>>> An alternative idea would be to have mobile battery swap facilities
>>> connected to the grid in each field and be moved from field to field as
>>> the work progressed.
>> -

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Re: Getting Around Energy Density by Tethering - EVs For Agriculture

Martin WINLOW
In reply to this post by Bill Dube
Hi Bill,

I'm assuming the power must be DC... or otherwise wouldn't the coils get V hot?  Or is this what the transformer you mentioned deals with?

MW


On 21 Feb 2014, at 17:53, Bill Dube wrote:

> Electric coal mining equipment is cord-connected. Even enormous draglines ("steam" shovels on steroids) are typically cord connected with 13 kV cables. It is a mature science. Coal mining equipment has been electric powered since the early 1900's. Specialized cables, reels, transformers, and equipment for the mining industry. Easily transferable technology to agriculture.
>
> They typically put a reel on the back of the mining machine that pays out (or pulls in) the cable as needed. They have a "load center" transformer that is moved around as the mining process proceeds.
>
> Electric shuttle car for underground coal transport from working face:
> http://www.undergroundcoal.com.au/fundamentals/11_face.aspx
>
> Nifty tutorial on cables for mining EVs:
> http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/mining/content/deratingfactors.html
>
> Dragline cable:
> http://www.miningphoto.com/details/2140/dragline_working_in_background_removing_overburden_with_drill_rigs_drilling_blas
>
> Bill Dube'
> (Used to work as an Electrical Inspection intern for the Mine Safety and Health Administration, MSHA)

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Re: Getting Around Energy Density by Tethering - EVs For Agriculture

Martin WINLOW
In reply to this post by Peter Gabrielsson
It might make sense to use fuel when fuel prices are still relatively low, but what are we going to use when fuel prices are 5 or 10 times what they are now?  Assuming I live to be the same age my parents are now (90+), I will be very surprised if fuel is not as expensive as this by then - say around 2050.  

Perhaps we will have come up with something else by then - massive indoor hydroponics factories on hundreds of levels, all computer controlled for nutrients, light and warmth, and harvested automatically, too.  Or perhaps Star Trek will rescue us with 'universal replicators' - just add energy and elements ('this hopper has carbon in it, this one potassium, this one nitrogen...' etc) and just ask it for what ever you want!

Quite what we'll do with all the farms (and farmers) is another matter.  Wall-e - here we come!

MW


On 21 Feb 2014, at 18:21, Peter Gabrielsson wrote:

> Out of curiosity I looked up the diesel fuel consumption of Combines. It
> ranges from 1-1.6 gallons per acre. Which roughly would translate to 12-20
> kWh of electricity per acre. So for a 100 Acre field you'd need  15 to 25
> tesla battery packs. Yikes.
>
> On the other hand you'd need a 1200 ft long cord for a 100Acre round field
> presuming the center pivot is used.
>
> I bet those combines are already very efficient, running at a constant load
> most of the time. There are some applications where using liquid dino fuels
> just makes a ton of sense, large scale farming is probably one of them.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 1:49 AM, Martin WINLOW <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Dear List,
>>
>> I was having a chat recently at work (which is nothing whatsoever to do
>> with EVs!) about how vehicles that traditionally use lots of energy would
>> ever be able to switch to electric power due to limitations on energy
>> density.  Fuel cell tractors came up amongst other things and then one of
>> my colleagues who, on learning of the enormous amounts of power required by
>> combine harvesters and plough-pulling tractors, jokingly suggested using 'a
>> very long extension lead'.  Whilst he is an ill-informed bumpkin, the
>> thought did occur that in an agricultural context powering machines
>> directly from the grid might not be so daft.  I immediately thought of
>> those enormous irrigation contraptions that work their way up and down huge
>> fields, laying and unlaying the hose that supplies the irrigation water as
>> it goes.  Could not the same technique be applied to tractors etc?  Each
>> field would have a connection point with power brought in either above or
>> below ground in the 'usual' way.
>>
>> An alternative idea would be to have mobile battery swap facilities
>> connected to the grid in each field and be moved from field to field as the
>> work progressed.
>>
>> Just a thought!
>>
>> MW
>> _______________________________________________
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> www.electric-lemon.com
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>

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Re: Getting Around Energy Density by Tethering - EVs For Agriculture

Zeke Yewdall
In reply to this post by Bill Dube
I remember reading about those large electric tethered coal shovels, and
how they were reducing carbon footprint by being more efficient than diesel
powered ones.  Seemed a little ironic, given that they were mining coal
with them.

Zeke


On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 10:53 AM, Bill Dube <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Electric coal mining equipment is cord-connected. Even enormous draglines
> ("steam" shovels on steroids) are typically cord connected with 13 kV
> cables. It is a mature science. Coal mining equipment has been electric
> powered since the early 1900's. Specialized cables, reels, transformers,
> and equipment for the mining industry. Easily transferable technology to
> agriculture.
>
> They typically put a reel on the back of the mining machine that pays out
> (or pulls in) the cable as needed. They have a "load center" transformer
> that is moved around as the mining process proceeds.
>
> Electric shuttle car for underground coal transport from working face:
> http://www.undergroundcoal.com.au/fundamentals/11_face.aspx
>
> Nifty tutorial on cables for mining EVs:
> http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/mining/content/deratingfactors.html
>
> Dragline cable:
> http://www.miningphoto.com/details/2140/dragline_working_
> in_background_removing_overburden_with_drill_rigs_drilling_blas
>
> Bill Dube'
> (Used to work as an Electrical Inspection intern for the Mine Safety and
> Health Administration, MSHA)
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
> group/NEDRA)
>
>
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Re: Getting Around Energy Density by Tethering - EVs For Agriculture

Bill Dube
In reply to this post by Martin WINLOW
AC, not DC powered. Transformer changes ~13 kv distribution voltage down
to 480 vac.

Cord reels ("coils") consist of three conductor wire with current
flowing equally in both directions, so there is no inductance associated
with the "coil". Thus no inductive heating from the AC.

On 2/22/2014 3:55 AM, Martin WINLOW wrote:

> Hi Bill,
>
> I'm assuming the power must be DC... or otherwise wouldn't the coils get V hot?  Or is this what the transformer you mentioned deals with?
>
> MW
>
>
> On 21 Feb 2014, at 17:53, Bill Dube wrote:
>
>> Electric coal mining equipment is cord-connected. Even enormous draglines ("steam" shovels on steroids) are typically cord connected with 13 kV cables. It is a mature science. Coal mining equipment has been electric powered since the early 1900's. Specialized cables, reels, transformers, and equipment for the mining industry. Easily transferable technology to agriculture.
>>
>> They typically put a reel on the back of the mining machine that pays out (or pulls in) the cable as needed. They have a "load center" transformer that is moved around as the mining process proceeds.
>>
>> Electric shuttle car for underground coal transport from working face:
>> http://www.undergroundcoal.com.au/fundamentals/11_face.aspx
>>
>> Nifty tutorial on cables for mining EVs:
>> http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/mining/content/deratingfactors.html
>>
>> Dragline cable:
>> http://www.miningphoto.com/details/2140/dragline_working_in_background_removing_overburden_with_drill_rigs_drilling_blas
>>
>> Bill Dube'
>> (Used to work as an Electrical Inspection intern for the Mine Safety and Health Administration, MSHA)
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>

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Re: Getting Around Energy Density by Tethering - EVs For Agriculture

Lee Hart
Bill Dube wrote:
> AC, not DC powered. Transformer changes ~13 kv distribution voltage down
> to 480 vac.
>
> Cord reels ("coils") consist of three conductor wire with current
> flowing equally in both directions, so there is no inductance associated
> with the "coil". Thus no inductive heating from the AC.

Bill has it right. When you have equal and opposite currents flowing in
the wires, their magnetic fields (largely) cancel. Thus, the inductance
(largely) cancels out.

There wouldn't be an inductive problem with DC in the cable, either. But
arcing would be in case of trouble, and changing the voltage gets a lot
harder. You want as high a voltage as possible in the cable, to minimize
the size of the wire and its resistive losses. But motors and motor
controllers are easier to build for lower voltages (and higher
currents). Transformers are the easiest way to deal with this.

--
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any
good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats. -- Howard Aiken
--
Lee Hart -- see my EV projects and Balancer at
www.sunrise-ev.com/Balancer.htm
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Re: Getting Around Energy Density by Tethering - EVs For Agriculture

Mark Grasser-2
Yes but,
The new way is DC. Hydro Electrc now sends DC overhead. They are proposing
sending it from Canada to Boston and New York in DC and using giant
inverters to AC for the grid.

I imagine they got this idea from the wind generator product. Those giant
wind generators are DC on top and in the base it is inverted to AC and then
put on the grid.

Sincerely,
Mark Grasser -
 

Bill Dube wrote:
> AC, not DC powered. Transformer changes ~13 kv distribution voltage
> down to 480 vac.
>
> Cord reels ("coils") consist of three conductor wire with current
> flowing equally in both directions, so there is no inductance
> associated with the "coil". Thus no inductive heating from the AC.

Bill has it right. When you have equal and opposite currents flowing in the
wires, their magnetic fields (largely) cancel. Thus, the inductance
(largely) cancels out.

There wouldn't be an inductive problem with DC in the cable, either. But
arcing would be in case of trouble, and changing the voltage gets a lot
harder. You want as high a voltage as possible in the cable, to minimize the
size of the wire and its resistive losses. But motors and motor controllers
are easier to build for lower voltages (and higher currents). Transformers
are the easiest way to deal with this.

--
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good,
you'll have to ram them down people's throats. -- Howard Aiken
--
Lee Hart -- see my EV projects and Balancer at
www.sunrise-ev.com/Balancer.htm
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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Re: Getting Around Energy Density by Tethering - EVs For Agriculture

robert winfield
In reply to this post by Martin WINLOW
Slitely off topic but there was comment about star trek food replicators
So, 3D printers are working on this now. There are stories of big CHON burger, carbon hydrogen oxygen nitrogen and SCOP ?food? (Single cell organic protein) (algae) last 2 are yuck. 3D printed may be ok



-------- Original message --------
From: Martin WINLOW <[hidden email]>
Date:02/22/2014  6:27 AM  (GMT-05:00)
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Getting Around Energy Density by Tethering - EVs For Agriculture

It might make sense to use fuel when fuel prices are still relatively low, but what are we going to use when fuel prices are 5 or 10 times what they are now?  Assuming I live to be the same age my parents are now (90+), I will be very surprised if fuel is not as expensive as this by then - say around 2050. 

Perhaps we will have come up with something else by then - massive indoor hydroponics factories on hundreds of levels, all computer controlled for nutrients, light and warmth, and harvested automatically, too.  Or perhaps Star Trek will rescue us with 'universal replicators' - just add energy and elements ('this hopper has carbon in it, this one potassium, this one nitrogen...' etc) and just ask it for what ever you want!

Quite what we'll do with all the farms (and farmers) is another matter.  Wall-e - here we come!

MW


On 21 Feb 2014, at 18:21, Peter Gabrielsson wrote:

> Out of curiosity I looked up the diesel fuel consumption of Combines. It
> ranges from 1-1.6 gallons per acre. Which roughly would translate to 12-20
> kWh of electricity per acre. So for a 100 Acre field you'd need  15 to 25
> tesla battery packs. Yikes.
>
> On the other hand you'd need a 1200 ft long cord for a 100Acre round field
> presuming the center pivot is used.
>
> I bet those combines are already very efficient, running at a constant load
> most of the time. There are some applications where using liquid dino fuels
> just makes a ton of sense, large scale farming is probably one of them.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 1:49 AM, Martin WINLOW <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Dear List,
>>
>> I was having a chat recently at work (which is nothing whatsoever to do
>> with EVs!) about how vehicles that traditionally use lots of energy would
>> ever be able to switch to electric power due to limitations on energy
>> density.  Fuel cell tractors came up amongst other things and then one of
>> my colleagues who, on learning of the enormous amounts of power required by
>> combine harvesters and plough-pulling tractors, jokingly suggested using 'a
>> very long extension lead'.  Whilst he is an ill-informed bumpkin, the
>> thought did occur that in an agricultural context powering machines
>> directly from the grid might not be so daft.  I immediately thought of
>> those enormous irrigation contraptions that work their way up and down huge
>> fields, laying and unlaying the hose that supplies the irrigation water as
>> it goes.  Could not the same technique be applied to tractors etc?  Each
>> field would have a connection point with power brought in either above or
>> below ground in the 'usual' way.
>>
>> An alternative idea would be to have mobile battery swap facilities
>> connected to the grid in each field and be moved from field to field as the
>> work progressed.
>>
>> Just a thought!
>>
>> MW
>> _______________________________________________
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> www.electric-lemon.com
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>

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Re: Getting Around Energy Density by Tethering - EVs For Agriculture

Martin WINLOW
In reply to this post by Bill Dube
"three conductor wire" - Do you mean 3-phase?  

Why do ordinary domestic AC mains cable reels heat up if used coiled, then?  MW


On 22 Feb 2014, at 17:26, Bill Dube wrote:

> AC, not DC powered. Transformer changes ~13 kv distribution voltage down to 480 vac.
>
> Cord reels ("coils") consist of three conductor wire with current flowing equally in both directions, so there is no inductance associated with the "coil". Thus no inductive heating from the AC.
>
> On 2/22/2014 3:55 AM, Martin WINLOW wrote:
>> Hi Bill,
>>
>> I'm assuming the power must be DC... or otherwise wouldn't the coils get V hot?  Or is this what the transformer you mentioned deals with?
>>
>> MW
>>
>>
>> On 21 Feb 2014, at 17:53, Bill Dube wrote:
>>
>>> Electric coal mining equipment is cord-connected. Even enormous draglines ("steam" shovels on steroids) are typically cord connected with 13 kV cables. It is a mature science. Coal mining equipment has been electric powered since the early 1900's. Specialized cables, reels, transformers, and equipment for the mining industry. Easily transferable technology to agriculture.
>>>
>>> They typically put a reel on the back of the mining machine that pays out (or pulls in) the cable as needed. They have a "load center" transformer that is moved around as the mining process proceeds.
>>>
>>> Electric shuttle car for underground coal transport from working face:
>>> http://www.undergroundcoal.com.au/fundamentals/11_face.aspx
>>>
>>> Nifty tutorial on cables for mining EVs:
>>> http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/mining/content/deratingfactors.html
>>>
>>> Dragline cable:
>>> http://www.miningphoto.com/details/2140/dragline_working_in_background_removing_overburden_with_drill_rigs_drilling_blas
>>>
>>> Bill Dube'
>>> (Used to work as an Electrical Inspection intern for the Mine Safety and Health Administration, MSHA)

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12