HPGC AC-31-01 Diagram or Manual

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HPGC AC-31-01 Diagram or Manual

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Hi Guys,

I am in the process of sticking an HPGC AC-31-01 Motor into a Morris Minor
and was wondering if anyone has any diagrams or manuals regarding this
motor?

I've searched online and emailed HPEV tech support but haven't had any
luck/reply.

I'm planning on keeping the Morris Minor gearbox and clutch and fabricating
a coupling to connect the AC-31 drive shaft to the old flywheel.

The guy I bought the AC-31 off (no docs from him either) said that the
pressure from the clutch mechanism onto the motor drive shaft can cause
problems with the bearing retaining clips inside the motor. Does anyone
have experience of this?

I was thinking of either opening up the motor and reinforcing the retaining
clips or adding a bearing to the faceplate to take the force from the
flywheel before the motor driveshaft.


Many thanks,
Matthew


07966 806 727
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Re: HPGC AC-31-01 Diagram or Manual

Cruisin
It doesn't surprise me of the lack of support from HPEVS. maybe their door is locked
Regarding the AC-31 which I have a lot of experience with, the motor already has a
front bearing. The information you received from the seller of the motor is false. Do your
conversion but leave out the flywheel and clutch assembly. If you want to shift, it can be done
without a clutch as long as you are not using regeneration, else you will have to feather the
accelerator during the shift. NO CLUTCH NEEDED.
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Re: HPGC AC-31-01 Diagram or Manual

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I have an S-10 conversion with the clutch left out, and you certainly
can shift it without the clutch. But the shifts take several seconds as
you wait for the motor to sync up in speed, and the time I spend
coasting, unless planned well in advance to be going down a hill, etc,
can cause cars to ride up on me.

If I were do another conversion, I would probably leave the clutch in,
despite the efficiency hit, just so that you can shift quickly. That way
you could start in 1st and shift to 2nd quickly, instead of using extra
amps to start up (slowly) in 2nd.

I have a DC motor, so I find myself shifting between 2nd and 3rd gear
around 40 MPH. Perhaps with an AC motor that has a larger RPM range you
could get 0-50 which would be fine for all city driving, or even 0-60
MPH in one gear and shifting wouldn't be much of an issue.

Jay

On 01/29/2017 05:24 PM, Cruisin via EV wrote:

> It doesn't surprise me of the lack of support from HPEVS. maybe their door is
> locked
> Regarding the AC-31 which I have a lot of experience with, the motor already
> has a
> front bearing. The information you received from the seller of the motor is
> false. Do your
> conversion but leave out the flywheel and clutch assembly. If you want to
> shift, it can be done
> without a clutch as long as you are not using regeneration, else you will
> have to feather the
> accelerator during the shift. NO CLUTCH NEEDED.
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/HPGC-AC-31-01-Diagram-or-Manual-tp4685630p4685637.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
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> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
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Re: HPGC AC-31-01 Diagram or Manual

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I also have an older DC powered conversion with a clutch. I've found that shifting with the clutch is much faster and much more forgiving.  I've driven it 'clutchless' a couple of times as an exercise, but found it to be very slow to shift with the foot off the clutch.  Matching motor speed with selected gear normally results in time wasted between gears waiting for the motor to wind down - traffic behind becomes very intolerant if you miss the split second between go and no-go.
Tougher on hills because the vehicle may slow down to almost nothing before the motor winds down enough to shift clutchless. Then you are back to square one (first gear again).
However, since AC motors have a much wider RPM operating range, frequent shifting isn't really necessary as with most DC motor conversions.
One conversion I've seen with an AC motor was a clutchless Geo Metro (Solectria). The AC motor twisted off the transmission input shaft in that particular vehicle twice, requiring a transmission replacement both times. Might be a poorly matched transmission design, or it might be that the clutch provides a bit of overtorque protection.
Based on what I've seen and operated for the last few years, I'd recommend retaining the clutch.  If you have a clutch-type conversion of any type available to test drive in your area, try to drive it both ways to see what fits your driving style before you commit.

Tom Keenan

> On Jan 29, 2017, at 4:59 PM, Jay Summet via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I have an S-10 conversion with the clutch left out, and you certainly can shift it without the clutch. But the shifts take several seconds as you wait for the motor to sync up in speed, and the time I spend coasting, unless planned well in advance to be going down a hill, etc, can cause cars to ride up on me.
>
> If I were do another conversion, I would probably leave the clutch in, despite the efficiency hit, just so that you can shift quickly. That way you could start in 1st and shift to 2nd quickly, instead of using extra amps to start up (slowly) in 2nd.
>
> I have a DC motor, so I find myself shifting between 2nd and 3rd gear around 40 MPH. Perhaps with an AC motor that has a larger RPM range you could get 0-50 which would be fine for all city driving, or even 0-60 MPH in one gear and shifting wouldn't be much of an issue.
>
> Jay
>
>> On 01/29/2017 05:24 PM, Cruisin via EV wrote:
>> It doesn't surprise me of the lack of support from HPEVS. maybe their door is
>> locked
>> Regarding the AC-31 which I have a lot of experience with, the motor already
>> has a
>> front bearing. The information you received from the seller of the motor is
>> false. Do your
>> conversion but leave out the flywheel and clutch assembly. If you want to
>> shift, it can be done
>> without a clutch as long as you are not using regeneration, else you will
>> have to feather the
>> accelerator during the shift. NO CLUTCH NEEDED.

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Re: HPGC AC-31-01 Diagram or Manual

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
     The springs in the clutch center, and the torque-limiting nature of
the clutch itself serve to limit peak torque in the transmission and
driveline. The transmission and the driveline components need the clutch
and its center springs to survive long-term.

     It is not the torque _from_ the motor that is the source of the
torque peaks, it is bumps in the road, like rail road tracks, that
inject damaging torque spikes _into_ the driveline and transmission. No
clutch to slip a little bit, or clutch center springs to absorb these
spikes, and the transmission life becomes very very short.

Bill D.

On 1/29/2017 7:28 PM, Tom Keenan via EV wrote:

> I also have an older DC powered conversion with a clutch. I've found that shifting with the clutch is much faster and much more forgiving.  I've driven it 'clutchless' a couple of times as an exercise, but found it to be very slow to shift with the foot off the clutch.  Matching motor speed with selected gear normally results in time wasted between gears waiting for the motor to wind down - traffic behind becomes very intolerant if you miss the split second between go and no-go.
> Tougher on hills because the vehicle may slow down to almost nothing before the motor winds down enough to shift clutchless. Then you are back to square one (first gear again).
> However, since AC motors have a much wider RPM operating range, frequent shifting isn't really necessary as with most DC motor conversions.
> One conversion I've seen with an AC motor was a clutchless Geo Metro (Solectria). The AC motor twisted off the transmission input shaft in that particular vehicle twice, requiring a transmission replacement both times. Might be a poorly matched transmission design, or it might be that the clutch provides a bit of overtorque protection.
> Based on what I've seen and operated for the last few years, I'd recommend retaining the clutch.  If you have a clutch-type conversion of any type available to test drive in your area, try to drive it both ways to see what fits your driving style before you commit.
>
> Tom Keenan
>
>> On Jan 29, 2017, at 4:59 PM, Jay Summet via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I have an S-10 conversion with the clutch left out, and you certainly can shift it without the clutch. But the shifts take several seconds as you wait for the motor to sync up in speed, and the time I spend coasting, unless planned well in advance to be going down a hill, etc, can cause cars to ride up on me.
>>
>> If I were do another conversion, I would probably leave the clutch in, despite the efficiency hit, just so that you can shift quickly. That way you could start in 1st and shift to 2nd quickly, instead of using extra amps to start up (slowly) in 2nd.
>>
>> I have a DC motor, so I find myself shifting between 2nd and 3rd gear around 40 MPH. Perhaps with an AC motor that has a larger RPM range you could get 0-50 which would be fine for all city driving, or even 0-60 MPH in one gear and shifting wouldn't be much of an issue.
>>
>> Jay
>>
>>> On 01/29/2017 05:24 PM, Cruisin via EV wrote:
>>> It doesn't surprise me of the lack of support from HPEVS. maybe their door is
>>> locked
>>> Regarding the AC-31 which I have a lot of experience with, the motor already
>>> has a
>>> front bearing. The information you received from the seller of the motor is
>>> false. Do your
>>> conversion but leave out the flywheel and clutch assembly. If you want to
>>> shift, it can be done
>>> without a clutch as long as you are not using regeneration, else you will
>>> have to feather the
>>> accelerator during the shift. NO CLUTCH NEEDED.
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>

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Re: HPGC AC-31-01 Diagram or Manual

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Thanks for the feedback guys, really great info.

Hadn't thought about the torque smoothing qualities of a clutch, which is
also a great reason to have one!

Does anyone know which bolts I can undo to take a look inside the motor?
There are four big ones on the back that are currently going through a
mounting plate so I'm assuming they've been removed and reattached at some
point.

Then there are also 4 small hex head bolts on the front that seem to be
holding on a covering for the front bearing.

But i'm reluctant to unscrew anything without knowing what they do in case
something is released internally that I'm unaware of and I kill my motor...


07966 806 727


On 30 January 2017 at 03:10, Bill Dube via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

>     The springs in the clutch center, and the torque-limiting nature of
> the clutch itself serve to limit peak torque in the transmission and
> driveline. The transmission and the driveline components need the clutch
> and its center springs to survive long-term.
>
>     It is not the torque _from_ the motor that is the source of the torque
> peaks, it is bumps in the road, like rail road tracks, that inject damaging
> torque spikes _into_ the driveline and transmission. No clutch to slip a
> little bit, or clutch center springs to absorb these spikes, and the
> transmission life becomes very very short.
>
> Bill D.
>
>
> On 1/29/2017 7:28 PM, Tom Keenan via EV wrote:
>
>> I also have an older DC powered conversion with a clutch. I've found that
>> shifting with the clutch is much faster and much more forgiving.  I've
>> driven it 'clutchless' a couple of times as an exercise, but found it to be
>> very slow to shift with the foot off the clutch.  Matching motor speed with
>> selected gear normally results in time wasted between gears waiting for the
>> motor to wind down - traffic behind becomes very intolerant if you miss the
>> split second between go and no-go.
>> Tougher on hills because the vehicle may slow down to almost nothing
>> before the motor winds down enough to shift clutchless. Then you are back
>> to square one (first gear again).
>> However, since AC motors have a much wider RPM operating range, frequent
>> shifting isn't really necessary as with most DC motor conversions.
>> One conversion I've seen with an AC motor was a clutchless Geo Metro
>> (Solectria). The AC motor twisted off the transmission input shaft in that
>> particular vehicle twice, requiring a transmission replacement both times.
>> Might be a poorly matched transmission design, or it might be that the
>> clutch provides a bit of overtorque protection.
>> Based on what I've seen and operated for the last few years, I'd
>> recommend retaining the clutch.  If you have a clutch-type conversion of
>> any type available to test drive in your area, try to drive it both ways to
>> see what fits your driving style before you commit.
>>
>> Tom Keenan
>>
>> On Jan 29, 2017, at 4:59 PM, Jay Summet via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> I have an S-10 conversion with the clutch left out, and you certainly
>>> can shift it without the clutch. But the shifts take several seconds as you
>>> wait for the motor to sync up in speed, and the time I spend coasting,
>>> unless planned well in advance to be going down a hill, etc, can cause cars
>>> to ride up on me.
>>>
>>> If I were do another conversion, I would probably leave the clutch in,
>>> despite the efficiency hit, just so that you can shift quickly. That way
>>> you could start in 1st and shift to 2nd quickly, instead of using extra
>>> amps to start up (slowly) in 2nd.
>>>
>>> I have a DC motor, so I find myself shifting between 2nd and 3rd gear
>>> around 40 MPH. Perhaps with an AC motor that has a larger RPM range you
>>> could get 0-50 which would be fine for all city driving, or even 0-60 MPH
>>> in one gear and shifting wouldn't be much of an issue.
>>>
>>> Jay
>>>
>>> On 01/29/2017 05:24 PM, Cruisin via EV wrote:
>>>> It doesn't surprise me of the lack of support from HPEVS. maybe their
>>>> door is
>>>> locked
>>>> Regarding the AC-31 which I have a lot of experience with, the motor
>>>> already
>>>> has a
>>>> front bearing. The information you received from the seller of the
>>>> motor is
>>>> false. Do your
>>>> conversion but leave out the flywheel and clutch assembly. If you want
>>>> to
>>>> shift, it can be done
>>>> without a clutch as long as you are not using regeneration, else you
>>>> will
>>>> have to feather the
>>>> accelerator during the shift. NO CLUTCH NEEDED.
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group
>> /NEDRA)
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
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> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group
> /NEDRA)
>
>
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Re: HPGC AC-31-01 Diagram or Manual

tomw
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
You might contact EVWest.  They are a dealer for these motors and have quite a bit of experience with them. I have a Suzuki Swift with an AC50 with over 50k miles and 7 years on it using the standard clutch assembly for that car. Works well. Shifting takes about 1/2 sec. The car will start off in 2nd gear, but to pace typical traffic and not hold things up requires starting in 1st gear and shifting to second at about 30 mph - especially if you are starting uphill, like up an on ramp to an expressway from a stop light.  You can remove the ring gear from the flywheel to reduce rotational inertia of the flywheel. Can also have the flywheel machined to further reduce inertia.  Doing both would buy about 1 second in 0 to 60mph time in my car so I decided it wasn't worth the bother. Myself, I would leave the motor alone so I didn't chance screwing something up.  If it ain't broke...