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Heater

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Sometimes during a conversation, the heater core is replaced with an electric resistance heater.  For a small size car like a VW Bug, what size is used?  What is the wattage?

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Re: Heater

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I used a 1500W heater core in my Geo Metro conversion, and I'd say that it
kept the car kinda "warmish" on really cold days.   But I think if I'd taken
the time to put extra insulation in the car, that would have helped.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of ROBERT via EV
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2017 3:20 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: ROBERT
Subject: [EVDL] Heater

Sometimes during a conversation, the heater core is replaced with an
electric resistance heater.  For a small size car like a VW Bug, what size
is used?  What is the wattage?

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Re: Heater

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Respectfully, when I did Civicwithacord, the goal was defrosting the windshield effectively, not keeping me warm. Yanking out the dash to install the ceramic heater in the old fluid core housing was easily the biggest b---h of the conversion, but the time and look and safety was well worth it!!

Bob Bath, from his iPod, so any misspellings are from autocorrect or fat fingers on a small device, not cluelessness...

> On Nov 28, 2017, at 3:13 PM, Bill Dennis via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I used a 1500W heater core in my Geo Metro conversion, and I'd say that it
> kept the car kinda "warmish" on really cold days.   But I think if I'd taken
> the time to put extra insulation in the car, that would have helped.
>
> Bill
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of ROBERT via EV
> Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2017 3:20 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: ROBERT
> Subject: [EVDL] Heater
>
> Sometimes during a conversation, the heater core is replaced with an
> electric resistance heater.  For a small size car like a VW Bug, what size
> is used?  What is the wattage?
>
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Re: Heater

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
If you what to get quite fancy, modern OEMs use a heat pump run with a
small variable frequency drive. About 4x the efficiency of a resistive
heater. No joke, and that is a serious increase in range in the winter.
No doubt, you can get a Leaf compressor cheap in the bone yard.

By adding the proper valving, you have the bonus of air conditioning,
but that is even more of a project. The good thing is, you can reuse the
cars existing air conditioning condensor and evaporator and some of the
A/C plumbing.

It can get quite complicated, however, and a resistive ceramic type
heater core is, no doubt, the simplest option. I'd opt for a "high/low"
switch (series-parallel?) on two ceramic heaters, or some sort of
thermostat on the outgoing air from the heater(s).

Bill D.

On 11/28/2017 4:33 PM, Bob Bath via EV wrote:

> Respectfully, when I did Civicwithacord, the goal was defrosting the windshield effectively, not keeping me warm. Yanking out the dash to install the ceramic heater in the old fluid core housing was easily the biggest b---h of the conversion, but the time and look and safety was well worth it!!
>
> Bob Bath, from his iPod, so any misspellings are from autocorrect or fat fingers on a small device, not cluelessness...
>
>> On Nov 28, 2017, at 3:13 PM, Bill Dennis via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I used a 1500W heater core in my Geo Metro conversion, and I'd say that it
>> kept the car kinda "warmish" on really cold days.   But I think if I'd taken
>> the time to put extra insulation in the car, that would have helped.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>

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Re: Heater

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I had to look this up on Wikipedia since a 100% efficient resistive heater is hard to beat, but I guess I didn't understand that the heat pump is getting added energy from the environment.  "
Heat energy naturally transfers from warmer places to colder spaces. However, a heat pump can reverse this process, by absorbing heat from a cold space and releasing it to a warmer one. Heat is not conserved in this process and requires some amount of external energy, such as electricity. In heating, ventilation and air conditioning (HVAC) systems, the term heat pump usually refers to vapor-compression refrigeration devices optimized for high efficiency in both directions of thermal energy transfer. These heat pumps can be reversible, and work in either direction to provide heating or cooling to the internal space.Heat pumps are used to transfer heat because less high-grade energy is required than is released as heat. Most of the energy for heating comes from the external environment, only a fraction of which comes from electricity (or some other high-grade energy source required to run a compressor). In electrically-powered heat pumps, the heat transferred can be three or four times larger than the electrical power consumed, giving the system a coefficient of performance (COP) of 3 or 4, as opposed to a COP of 1 for a conventional electrical resistance heater, in which all heat is produced from input electrical energy.Heat pumps use a refrigerant as an intermediate fluid to absorb heat where it vaporizes, in the evaporator, and then to release heat where the refrigerant condenses, in the condenser. The refrigerant flows through insulated pipes between the evaporator and the condenser, allowing for efficient thermal energy transfer at relatively long distances.[5] "
 

    On Tuesday, November 28, 2017 8:42 PM, Bill Dube via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
 

 If you what to get quite fancy, modern OEMs use a heat pump run with a
small variable frequency drive. About 4x the efficiency of a resistive
heater. No joke, and that is a serious increase in range in the winter.
No doubt, you can get a Leaf compressor cheap in the bone yard.

By adding the proper valving, you have the bonus of air conditioning,
but that is even more of a project. The good thing is, you can reuse the
cars existing air conditioning condensor and evaporator and some of the
A/C plumbing.

It can get quite complicated, however, and a resistive ceramic type
heater core is, no doubt, the simplest option. I'd opt for a "high/low"
switch (series-parallel?) on two ceramic heaters, or some sort of
thermostat on the outgoing air from the heater(s).

Bill D.

On 11/28/2017 4:33 PM, Bob Bath via EV wrote:

> Respectfully, when I did Civicwithacord, the goal was defrosting the windshield effectively, not keeping me warm. Yanking out the dash to install the ceramic heater in the old fluid core housing was easily the biggest b---h of the conversion, but the time and look and safety was well worth it!!
>
> Bob Bath, from his iPod, so any misspellings are from autocorrect or fat fingers on a small device, not cluelessness...
>
>> On Nov 28, 2017, at 3:13 PM, Bill Dennis via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I used a 1500W heater core in my Geo Metro conversion, and I'd say that it
>> kept the car kinda "warmish" on really cold days.  But I think if I'd taken
>> the time to put extra insulation in the car, that would have helped.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>

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Re: Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Thanks for the Wikipedia reference. Here is the link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump

Folks are often puzzled by the "up to 4x efficiency" of heat pumps. "How
is that even possible?" is the most common question. (And the common
sense question as well...)
Well, heat pumps do indeed deliver, typically 3x to 4x the heat as a
resistive heater given the identical wattage input, occasionally even a
bit more. They indeed work, whether you believe in the theory or not.

I replaced a resistive space heater (about $120) in my two car
garage/shop with a heat pump ($1300, Ebay) and it uses *one fifth* the
energy. (SEER 21, 18000 BTU, heating and A/C) Paid for itself in a less
than two years of operation. (Higher SEER rated heat pumps cost
considerably more that lower SEER rated units. They cut fewer corners so
you must pay for that.)
SEER Wikipedia link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_energy_efficiency_ratio

Ebay link for 18000 BTU 21 to 23 SEER unit for $999, free shipping:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/112410406169

Bill D.




On 11/28/2017 8:00 PM, Rod Hower via EV wrote:

> I had to look this up on Wikipedia since a 100% efficient resistive heater is hard to beat, but I guess I didn't understand that the heat pump is getting added energy from the environment.  "
> Heat energy naturally transfers from warmer places to colder spaces. However, a heat pump can reverse this process, by absorbing heat from a cold space and releasing it to a warmer one. Heat is not conserved in this process and requires some amount of external energy, such as electricity. In heating, ventilation and air conditioning (HVAC) systems, the term heat pump usually refers to vapor-compression refrigeration devices optimized for high efficiency in both directions of thermal energy transfer. These heat pumps can be reversible, and work in either direction to provide heating or cooling to the internal space.Heat pumps are used to transfer heat because less high-grade energy is required than is released as heat. Most of the energy for heating comes from the external environment, only a fraction of which comes from electricity (or some other high-grade energy source required to run a compressor). In electrically-powered heat pumps, the heat transferred can be three or four times larger than the electrical power consumed, giving the system a coefficient of performance (COP) of 3 or 4, as opposed to a COP of 1 for a conventional electrical resistance heater, in which all heat is produced from input electrical energy.Heat pumps use a refrigerant as an intermediate fluid to absorb heat where it vaporizes, in the evaporator, and then to release heat where the refrigerant condenses, in the condenser. The refrigerant flows through insulated pipes between the evaporator and the condenser, allowing for efficient thermal energy transfer at relatively long distances.[5] "
>  
>
>      On Tuesday, November 28, 2017 8:42 PM, Bill Dube via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>
>   If you what to get quite fancy, modern OEMs use a heat pump run with a
> small variable frequency drive. About 4x the efficiency of a resistive
> heater. No joke, and that is a serious increase in range in the winter.
> No doubt, you can get a Leaf compressor cheap in the bone yard.
>
> By adding the proper valving, you have the bonus of air conditioning,
> but that is even more of a project. The good thing is, you can reuse the
> cars existing air conditioning condensor and evaporator and some of the
> A/C plumbing.
>
> It can get quite complicated, however, and a resistive ceramic type
> heater core is, no doubt, the simplest option. I'd opt for a "high/low"
> switch (series-parallel?) on two ceramic heaters, or some sort of
> thermostat on the outgoing air from the heater(s).
>
> Bill D.
>
> On 11/28/2017 4:33 PM, Bob Bath via EV wrote:
>> Respectfully, when I did Civicwithacord, the goal was defrosting the windshield effectively, not keeping me warm. Yanking out the dash to install the ceramic heater in the old fluid core housing was easily the biggest b---h of the conversion, but the time and look and safety was well worth it!!
>>
>> Bob Bath, from his iPod, so any misspellings are from autocorrect or fat fingers on a small device, not cluelessness...
>>
>>> On Nov 28, 2017, at 3:13 PM, Bill Dennis via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> I used a 1500W heater core in my Geo Metro conversion, and I'd say that it
>>> kept the car kinda "warmish" on really cold days.  But I think if I'd taken
>>> the time to put extra insulation in the car, that would have helped.
>>>
>>> Bill
>>>
>>>
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>
>
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Re: Heater

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Isn't a bug air cooled? It doesn't have a heater core.

Do you mean a modern water cooled bug.

In any case, I use a tank heater and pump to circulate hot antifreeze
through the original heater core.

The pro is you don't have to dig into the dash, the con is there is a
bit of plumbing to do.

I consider 1500W the bare minimum. My tank heater is 3000W and does
pretty well.

Al


On 11/28/2017 5:19 PM, ROBERT via EV wrote:

> Sometimes during a conversation, the heater core is replaced with an electric resistance heater.  For a small size car like a VW Bug, what size is used?  What is the wattage?
>
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>

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Re: Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On Tue Nov 28 20:03:14 PST 2017 [hidden email] said:
>I replaced a resistive space heater (about $120) in my two car
>garage/shop with a heat pump ($1300, Ebay) and it uses *one fifth* the
>energy. (SEER 21, 18000 BTU, heating and A/C) Paid for itself in a less
>than two years of operation. (Higher SEER rated heat pumps cost
>considerably more that lower SEER rated units. They cut fewer corners so
>you must pay for that.)
>SEER Wikipedia link:
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_energy_efficiency_ratio

I've been tempted by those for my shop office - but you do have to hire a refrigeration guy to do the coolant.


--

Bobcats and Cougars, oh my!  http://john.casadelgato.com/Pets
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Re: Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Heat can't magically be obtained from cold air.

As the temperature drops, the pump must do a lot more work for an ever
smaller amount of heat.

Al


On 11/28/2017 11:03 PM, Bill Dube via EV wrote:

> Thanks for the Wikipedia reference. Here is the link:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump
>
> Folks are often puzzled by the "up to 4x efficiency" of heat pumps.
> "How is that even possible?" is the most common question. (And the
> common sense question as well...)
> Well, heat pumps do indeed deliver, typically 3x to 4x the heat as a
> resistive heater given the identical wattage input, occasionally even
> a bit more. They indeed work, whether you believe in the theory or not.
>

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Re: Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On Tue Nov 28 20:11:48 PST 2017 [hidden email] said:
>Heat can't magically be obtained from cold air.
>
>As the temperature drops, the pump must do a lot more work for an ever
>smaller amount of heat.

The one I just had put in the cabin is better than an electric heater down to around 0 deg F.
Around here, dropping below freezing is rare event.

--

Try my Sensible Email package!  https://sourceforge.net/projects/sensibleemail/
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Re: Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
You guys are correct about a heat pump being more energy efficiency than a resistance heating element.  I recently installed a hybrid hot water heater.  I have an external energy monitor on this circuit.  The hybrid hot water heater used 1/4 the energy of a standard hot water heater.  With the tax credit, the heater will pay for itself in 4 years.


________________________________
From: EV <[hidden email]> on behalf of John Lussmyer via EV <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2017 9:17 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: John Lussmyer
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)

On Tue Nov 28 20:11:48 PST 2017 [hidden email] said:
>Heat can't magically be obtained from cold air.
>
>As the temperature drops, the pump must do a lot more work for an ever
>smaller amount of heat.

The one I just had put in the cabin is better than an electric heater down to around 0 deg F.
Around here, dropping below freezing is rare event.

--

Try my Sensible Email package!  https://sourceforge.net/projects/sensibleemail/
SensibleEmail download | SourceForge.net<https://sourceforge.net/projects/sensibleemail/>
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Download SensibleEmail for free. Email client based on the Eclipse RCP platform. Email client designed to be reliable, and easy to use. All email is kept in a SQL ...


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Re: Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
You can look up "How to install a mini split" on YouTube. The units
typically come with poorly translated,  but still very useful, DIY
installation instructions.

It is best if you have a gauge set and a vacuum pump, but if you are
careful and detail oriented, you can use the "purge and bleed method."
Just ordinary tools are required for this method. I have heard it works
pretty well, actually. The leak detection is a bit more tricky, however,
as you have to do a partial fill, check with soapy water for leaks, and
then finish the purge and completely fill.

I have a gauge set and a vacuum pump. You can rent a vacuum pump in some
tool rental stores. Gauge sets are ~ $30 or so on Ebay. Pull a vacuum
for ~30 minutes then leak check by valving off and checking the vacuum
on the gauge set after awhile for leak down. If no leaks, then you fill
from the outside unit. This is the standard "with proper tools" method.

Cleanliness and careful workmanship are important to avoid leaks in the
tubing. You have to know how to flare copper tubing properly, tighten
flare fittings properly, and bend thinwall copper tubing without kinking
it. You will need an assistant to help hang the inside unit. "Seasoned
mechanic" is what I would rate the needed skill level at.

The outside unit comes pre-charged with enough R410A to fill the inside
unit(s) and connective plumbing. If you leak checked well, then there is
no need for additional refrigerant.

Ebay link for 18000 BTU 21 to 23 SEER unit for *$999*, free shipping:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/112410406169

You can easily heat/cool  a 24' x 24' insulated garage with this size
unit. (1.5 ton unit = 18000 BTU)

Bill D.

On 11/28/2017 9:07 PM, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:

> On Tue Nov 28 20:03:14 PST 2017 [hidden email] said:
>> I replaced a resistive space heater (about $120) in my two car
>> garage/shop with a heat pump ($1300, Ebay) and it uses *one fifth* the
>> energy. (SEER 21, 18000 BTU, heating and A/C) Paid for itself in a less
>> than two years of operation. (Higher SEER rated heat pumps cost
>> considerably more that lower SEER rated units. They cut fewer corners so
>> you must pay for that.)
>> SEER Wikipedia link:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_energy_efficiency_ratio
> I've been tempted by those for my shop office - but you do have to hire a refrigeration guy to do the coolant.
>
>
> --
>
> Bobcats and Cougars, oh my!  http://john.casadelgato.com/Pets
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
The efficiency never drops below that of a resistive heater.

They don't do their magic much below ~10 Fahrenheit, but they will work
to below zero. They actually have a resistive heater built into the
outside unit to defrost the coils if they build up ice. I have two heat
pumps on my house in Colorado and one on the garage. They have always
worked, even on the coldest days.

BTW
There is heat in air all the way to absolute zero. (-459.67 F)  At this
point, it contains no (zero) heat. The air turns completely to a solid
below about 63 Kelvin (About -350 F) so you wouldn't care. :-)

Bill D.

On 11/28/2017 9:11 PM, Alan Arrison via EV wrote:

> Heat can't magically be obtained from cold air.
>
> As the temperature drops, the pump must do a lot more work for an ever
> smaller amount of heat.
>
> Al
>
>
> On 11/28/2017 11:03 PM, Bill Dube via EV wrote:
>> Thanks for the Wikipedia reference. Here is the link:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump
>>
>> Folks are often puzzled by the "up to 4x efficiency" of heat pumps.
>> "How is that even possible?" is the most common question. (And the
>> common sense question as well...)
>> Well, heat pumps do indeed deliver, typically 3x to 4x the heat as a
>> resistive heater given the identical wattage input, occasionally even
>> a bit more. They indeed work, whether you believe in the theory or not.
>>
>
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3000+W: Heater

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I wrote about my experience about 2yrs ago, see
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Resistive-heater-core-access-for-S-10-conversion-EVA-kit-tips-tricks-tp4680519p4680524.html

The two links on that archived post are still good. The canEV heater is
offered in different configurations (from low to high voltage packs), and
the other link is for high voltage pack designs.


What type of heater and what wattage you will need is more than just the
EV's cab size as there are other factors to consider.

-I was happy with the 1.6+kW hair drier type, though it took a while to do
the job. Today's hair driers are rated at 1875 Watts, see
https://www.target.com/p/conair-174-salon-series-midsize-turbo-dryer/-/A-10878193?lnk=rec|adaptpdph1|related_prods_vv|adaptpdph1|10878193|0
But later, complaints from the under-dressed gal I wanted with me gave me
motivation to throw money at her issues by using the S-10 heater core that
was still there, heated by a (now defunct) Russco heater. It drew 120V 25A
off a 132VDC pack. So, family considerations is also a factor in your heater
wattage decision (if she refuses to wear more clothes, you will need more
heat).

-At the time, my S-10 Blazer had 6+ chargers on-board (a 22+kW charging
ability) which let me push my range way out further than any conversion in
my area had gone. When I was down in SoCal (Los Angeles) area, I didn't need
the heater even in the dead of their winter. It wasn't until traveling back
north on the I-5 grapevine, that I saw some people with snow purposely piled
on their cars. I took a side trip from Lebec, CA to Frazier Park. I was glad
I had the much more powerful Russco heater (it was colder than this CA boy
liked). So, if it snows where you live or travel, that is a factor in your
heater wattage decision.

-A similar (heater saves the day) experience happened nearer to my SF Bay
area without any snow. I was pushing my Monterey, CA trip range-envelope by
leveraging off a Marina Dunes RV park. When while charging, it began to
rain. Then rain really hard (like the way it does near an ocean coast). The
windshield fogged up to the point of condensation on the inside of the cab.
I did not bother to use the heater until the charge was near completed. Just
before I was ready to leave, I used the heater to dry out the windshield.
Even with that 3kW heater it took a while, but I would not have been able to
drive (or see out the windshield) if I had only had the original cheaper
hair drier type heater. So, how much moisture you will have to contend with
is also a factor to consider.

IMO, it is better to have 3000+ Watts of heater, same as I feel it is best
to have the most charging ability you can (j1772 L2-6kW & L3 if possible).
You may not use all of that capability the majority of the time, but when
you really need it, it is there to do the job and save the day :-)




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{brucedp.neocities.org}

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Re: Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Heat pump heating is always more efficient than resistive heating because the losses in the pump are added to the heat output, so when temp delta increases and efficiency drops, you approach the case of the resistive heating. Most heat pumps are applied to protect from excessive pump operation and wear by adding resistance heating below certain amb temps.


Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
-------- Original message --------From: Alan Arrison via EV <[hidden email]> Date: 11/29/17  6:11 AM  (GMT+02:00) To: [hidden email] Cc: Alan Arrison <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)
Heat can't magically be obtained from cold air.

As the temperature drops, the pump must do a lot more work for an ever
smaller amount of heat.

Al


On 11/28/2017 11:03 PM, Bill Dube via EV wrote:

> Thanks for the Wikipedia reference. Here is the link:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump
>
> Folks are often puzzled by the "up to 4x efficiency" of heat pumps.
> "How is that even possible?" is the most common question. (And the
> common sense question as well...)
> Well, heat pumps do indeed deliver, typically 3x to 4x the heat as a
> resistive heater given the identical wattage input, occasionally even
> a bit more. They indeed work, whether you believe in the theory or not.
>

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Re: Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
The issue with a heat pump is sizing, at least when I did my whole house
research. Down to, say, 40F a heat pump will do exceptionally well. As
it gets colder, it takes more work to compress the heat from outside.
From strictly a performance point of view, that will still always beat a
resistance heater. However, now you need a larger unit. There comes a
point when you need to make a size v efficiency trade off. So, if you
choose a heat pump, make sure it will generate the BTUs you need at your
coldest temperature or supplement it with some resistance heating.

Peri

------ Original Message ------
From: "Cor van de Water via EV" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 29-Nov-17 1:31:40 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV
related)

>Heat pump heating is always more efficient than resistive heating
>because the losses in the pump are added to the heat output, so when
>temp delta increases and efficiency drops, you approach the case of the
>resistive heating. Most heat pumps are applied to protect from
>excessive pump operation and wear by adding resistance heating below
>certain amb temps.
>
>
>Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
>-------- Original message --------From: Alan Arrison via EV
><[hidden email]> Date: 11/29/17  6:11 AM  (GMT+02:00) To:
>[hidden email] Cc: Alan Arrison <[hidden email]> Subject: Re:
>[EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)
>Heat can't magically be obtained from cold air.
>
>As the temperature drops, the pump must do a lot more work for an ever
>smaller amount of heat.
>
>Al
>
>
>On 11/28/2017 11:03 PM, Bill Dube via EV wrote:
>>Thanks for the Wikipedia reference. Here is the link:
>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump
>>
>>Folks are often puzzled by the "up to 4x efficiency" of heat pumps.
>>"How is that even possible?" is the most common question. (And the
>>common sense question as well...)
>>Well, heat pumps do indeed deliver, typically 3x to 4x the heat as a
>>resistive heater given the identical wattage input, occasionally even
>>a bit more. They indeed work, whether you believe in the theory or
>>not.
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>
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Re: Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On 29 Nov 2017 at 15:07, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

>  if you choose a heat pump, make sure it will generate the BTUs you
> need at your coldest temperature or supplement it with some resistance
> heating.

Every home-HVAC heat pump I've ever seen has had supplemental and/or
"emergency" heat.  They all had resistive electric supplemental heat.  I've
read more recently about HVAC systems that use fuel gas heat as the
supplement.

I'd assume (and we all know what that is!) that all production EV heat pumps
would also include resistive heating.  Very few people will tolerate Yugo-
class heating in their vehicles.  (The infamous Yugo GV ICEV came with a
pitiful heater.  Owners who complained were told to keep the blower on LOW
position so the air coming out of the vents would feel a little warmer.)

IMO fitting a heat pump to a conversion EV is going to be a pretty
significant challenge.  That holds whether you're trying to make a HP from
an existing aircon that came with the ICEV you're converting, or trying to
convince a HP system from a production EV that it should work in a vehicle
with none of the Canbus signals it expects.  I would have no idea where to
start.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Actually, backup heat (resistqance heaters) are not a bad thing.  They
allow you to size the heatpump for *most* of ones heating, and letting
resistance do the heavy lift on the coldest nights.

Even in Maryland, the average daytime high even in Jan and Feb is above
40F, though it plunges to the single digits and teens many nights.  But on
average over the 6 omnths season, the "average" temp is well over 40F, so
don't oversize and pay more for a big system when an "average system" will
do augnemnted by some more expensive backup heat.

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via
EV
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 10:07 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Peri Hartman
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV
related)

The issue with a heat pump is sizing, at least when I did my whole house
research. Down to, say, 40F a heat pump will do exceptionally well. As it
gets colder, it takes more work to compress the heat from outside.
From strictly a performance point of view, that will still always beat a
resistance heater. However, now you need a larger unit. There comes a
point when you need to make a size v efficiency trade off. So, if you
choose a heat pump, make sure it will generate the BTUs you need at your
coldest temperature or supplement it with some resistance heating.

Peri

------ Original Message ------
From: "Cor van de Water via EV" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Cor van de Water" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 29-Nov-17 1:31:40 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV
related)

>Heat pump heating is always more efficient than resistive heating
>because the losses in the pump are added to the heat output, so when
>temp delta increases and efficiency drops, you approach the case of the
>resistive heating. Most heat pumps are applied to protect from
>excessive pump operation and wear by adding resistance heating below
>certain amb temps.
>
>
>Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
>-------- Original message --------From: Alan Arrison via EV
><[hidden email]> Date: 11/29/17  6:11 AM  (GMT+02:00) To:
>[hidden email] Cc: Alan Arrison <[hidden email]> Subject: Re:
>[EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related) Heat
>can't magically be obtained from cold air.
>
>As the temperature drops, the pump must do a lot more work for an ever
>smaller amount of heat.
>
>Al
>
>
>On 11/28/2017 11:03 PM, Bill Dube via EV wrote:
>>Thanks for the Wikipedia reference. Here is the link:
>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump
>>
>>Folks are often puzzled by the "up to 4x efficiency" of heat pumps.
>>"How is that even possible?" is the most common question. (And the
>>common sense question as well...) Well, heat pumps do indeed deliver,
>>typically 3x to 4x the heat as a resistive heater given the identical
>>wattage input, occasionally even a bit more. They indeed work, whether
>>you believe in the theory or not.
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
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Re: Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
AMEN!
When I installed my heatpump wter heater, I kept the old one.  Put them in
series so that the heatpump first heats the 50F incoming city water to
about 100F (intentionally set that low so that the heatpumps is  operating
most efficiently).  Then that water goes into the old electic tank where
the top coil is set to 110F.
So most of the heating is at the very high efficiency of the heatpump
unit.

Wrapped them both in 4" insulation.

And by only setting a final temp of 110F, the wife can still take a HOT
shower, though she is burning through 90% hot water and 10% cold to get
the right temp.  We can do this at this low temperature because of the 100
gallons of hot water available.

Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of ROBERT via EV
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 12:05 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: ROBERT
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV
related)

You guys are correct about a heat pump being more energy efficiency than a
resistance heating element.  I recently installed a hybrid hot water
heater.  I have an external energy monitor on this circuit.  The hybrid
hot water heater used 1/4 the energy of a standard hot water heater.  With
the tax credit, the heater will pay for itself in 4 years.


________________________________
From: EV <[hidden email]> on behalf of John Lussmyer via EV
<[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2017 9:17 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: John Lussmyer
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV
related)

On Tue Nov 28 20:11:48 PST 2017 [hidden email] said:
>Heat can't magically be obtained from cold air.
>
>As the temperature drops, the pump must do a lot more work for an ever
>smaller amount of heat.

The one I just had put in the cabin is better than an electric heater down
to around 0 deg F.
Around here, dropping below freezing is rare event.

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Re: Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
My point was solar hot water collectors do work if the system is designed correctly.  A solar hot water collector is 80 -90% efficient where as a PV panel is 15-18% at best.  My solar hot water system is a combined hot water system and radiant floor heating system.  It works.  A PV system for heating would need a large battery backup system to work at night.  A hot concrete slab retains the heats for 5 - 6 hrs at night.  The biggest consumers of energy in a house are HVAC, Hot Water Heater, Ovens, and Clothes Dryers.  A solar hot water system can reduce home heating cost and hot water cost with much higher efficiency than a PV system.  In my opinion, a combination PV and hot water collector system would be the best.


Your statement "You get full retial value from every photon of sun whether you are heating water or using it for other!" is not correct.  For every photon of energy that falls on a PV panel, over 85% is not converted to electrical energy.  PV panels are not efficient converters of light energy to electricity.  Before everyone howls at me.  Fossil fuel conversion to electrical energy is not super efficient either.


I don't think Lowes has a hybrid hot water heater for $699.00.  Lowes sales the AO Smith brand of hot water heaters.  Their hybrid unit is a good unit with an energy rating of approximately $119 per year but with a 9 year tank warranty.  The cost is about $1500.00.





________________________________
From: Robert Bruninga <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 1:17 PM
To: ROBERT
Subject: RE: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)


Your email was hard to read since there 2were no paragraphs, but I get the gyst.



I agree, Thermal solar hot wter heating is dead,dead,dead since about 2005.  And even then was usless on the family cycle since all therm gain after the tank is hot is wasted.



Solar PV grid-tied with a heatpump water heater is the only way to go.  You get full retial value from every photon of sun whether you are heating water or using it for other!



P.S.  I just looked and Lowes has 50 gal htepupp water heaters for $699.  Wow.

Bob





From: ROBERT [mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>]
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 2:49 PM
To: Robert Bruninga
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)



Robert, I have a similar arrangement with my solar hot water system and hybrid hot water heater.  The solar collectors via a water to water heater exchanger heats the water in a preheat tank and the water goes to the hybrid hot water heater before going to the fixtures.  The preheat tank is a 50 gal standard propane hot water heater.  The system is very efficient.  The high efficiency is due to system design and lifestyle.  The efficiency by system design is obvious.  The efficiency by lifestyle is the interesting part.  Most people use hot water in the morning and in the evening.  People get up before the sun rises and hit the hot water heavily.  In a system with a standard electric hot water heater, before the solar collectors can heat the hot water (sun has not come up), the water heater resistance elements reheat the water.  You get no gain form the solar system.  The family goes off to work and school.  The sun comes up.  The solar collectors maintain the temperature of the hot
 water during the day.  The family returns home and start hitting the hot water.  Again with a standard hot water heater and after sunset, the water heater resistance elements reheat the water.  Again no gain from the solar system.  This lifestyle is the reason most people are disappointed in a hot water solar system.  They see very little energy use decrease because the solar is only effective during the day maintaining the heat loss from the hot water heaters.  The solar/hybrid system works better.  I keep the hybrid unit in heat pump mode only.  This is the most efficient setting.  We get up in the morning with 100 gals of hot water.  We hit the hot water heavily.  The hybrid unit starts heating the water at a very slow recovery rate and very efficiently.  The water does not get fully reheated before the sun rises.  The solar heat finishes reheating the water and the hybrid unit is shut off (hybrid unit has this type of control).  Note: the pump draws water from the bottom of both
  heaters and circulates through the heat exchanges ... very important design feature.  The solar system heats the water to 150 F (hybrid unit set point is 120 F) in both hot water heaters during the day.  Come evening, I have 100 gals of 150 F water to wash dishes take showers etc.  The hybrid unit is turned back on for the night.  Usually around 12:00 - 1:00 am the hybrid unit will need to run to maintain the 120 F water in the hybrid unit.  Typically it takes 1KWHr during the night.  Depending on the amount of hot water usage in the morning the hybrid unit uses 1 - 2 KWHr of electricity per day.  In the summer, the usage is 0.  During Jan - Feb the usage has been as high as 50 KWHr per month.  The yearly cost is $50 - $80 per year for electricity for the hybrid unit at 0.15 KWHr.  I tell this story because so many people tell me they installed a solar hot water system and it did not help.  They are correct because the local solar companies and most national companies do not unders
 tand lifestyle and its effect on energy efficiency.  Another point is a hybrid unit cost $1500 - $1800.  The $1800 unit has a stainless steel tank with a 20 year warranty.  A standard electric hot water heater cost $400 - $450 with a 9 year tank warranty.  I will let you do the math but considering it takes 2 standard units over a 20 year period and the energy saving from a hybrid unit, only a short sighted person would buy a standard hot water heater with or without solar.  Also, I got by two hybrid units off craigslist for $100 each.  They both work.  I only needed to clean the elements and replace on element.  But that is another story.





________________________________

From: Robert Bruninga <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 10:05 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: ROBERT
Subject: RE: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)



AMEN!
When I installed my heatpump wter heater, I kept the old one.  Put them in
series so that the heatpump first heats the 50F incoming city water to
about 100F (intentionally set that low so that the heatpumps is  operating
most efficiently).  Then that water goes into the old electic tank where
the top coil is set to 110F.
So most of the heating is at the very high efficiency of the heatpump
unit.

Wrapped them both in 4" insulation.

And by only setting a final temp of 110F, the wife can still take a HOT
shower, though she is burning through 90% hot water and 10% cold to get
the right temp.  We can do this at this low temperature because of the 100
gallons of hot water available.

Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of ROBERT via EV
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 12:05 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: ROBERT
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV
related)

You guys are correct about a heat pump being more energy efficiency than a
resistance heating element.  I recently installed a hybrid hot water
heater.  I have an external energy monitor on this circuit.  The hybrid
hot water heater used 1/4 the energy of a standard hot water heater.  With
the tax credit, the heater will pay for itself in 4 years.


________________________________
From: EV <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> on behalf of John Lussmyer via EV
<[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2017 9:17 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: John Lussmyer
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV
related)

On Tue Nov 28 20:11:48 PST 2017 [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]> said:
>Heat can't magically be obtained from cold air.
>
>As the temperature drops, the pump must do a lot more work for an ever
>smaller amount of heat.

The one I just had put in the cabin is better than an electric heater down
to around 0 deg F.
Around here, dropping below freezing is rare event.

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