Help me with this debate

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Help me with this debate

Chip Gribben
OK. Help me refute this. You all can email me directly or jump into the debate on FB.

"No Chip, you are wrong. The reason it's (fossil fuels) economical is because fossil fuels deliver the most energy per unit of volume based on modern day technology. They simply have not come up with any other economically VIABLE source of energy to replace it. "


Chip
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Re: Help me with this debate

martinwinlow


On 3 Mar 2012, at 16:05, Chip Gribben wrote:

> OK. Help me refute this. You all can email me directly or jump into the debate on FB.
>
> "No Chip, you are wrong. The reason it's (fossil fuels) economical is because fossil fuels deliver the most energy per unit of volume based on modern day technology. They simply have not come up with any other economically VIABLE source of energy to replace it. "
>
>
> Chip

It is only 'economically viable' because America (and its allies) chooses/wants/has to spend US$600billion a year on keeping the lid on international political disharmony that would otherwise very quickly turn the bulk of the oil producing countries into a colossal battle field.  It may happen yet... and soon!

And that doesn't even begin to include the cost in human terms of all those killed or maimed as a direct result of that 'policing'.

Or, for that matter, the long term fall-out - global warming (if it exists), health of people putting up with smog etc etc etc.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk
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Re: Help me with this debate

Voltswagon
In reply to this post by Chip Gribben
You can make electricity without oil.  You cannot make oil without electricity.  It takes more electricity to make a gallon of gas than it does to drive the distance than gallon would give you in an electric car.
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Re: Help me with this debate

Ed Blackmond
In reply to this post by Chip Gribben

On Mar 3, 2012, at 8:05 AM, Chip Gribben wrote:

> OK. Help me refute this. You all can email me directly or jump into  
> the debate on FB.
>
> "No Chip, you are wrong. The reason it's (fossil fuels) economical  
> is because fossil fuels deliver the most energy per unit of volume  
> based on modern day technology. They simply have not come up with  
> any other economically VIABLE source of energy to replace it. "
>

He talks about apples and oranges, and concludes that grapes are good.

The energy storage density of gasoline has nothing to do with the  
economics.  It does have to do with the distance a vehicle can travel  
before it needs to refuel.  It also has to do with the amount of time  
it takes to refuel.

I purchase my electricity at something just under $0.05/KWhr (when I  
purchase it between midnight and 7am).  That five cents takes my Leaf  
more than 2.5 miles.  That is much more economically viable than  
gasoline.  The price of gasoline is well over $4.00/gal here.  Five  
cents of gasoline would take a Nissan Versa (pretty much the same car  
as a Leaf but with an ICE instead of an electric motor) about 3/8  
mile.  That makes the Nissan Leaf about 6 times as economically viable  
as the ICE Versa.

Ed

>
> Chip
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Re: Help me with this debate

Thos True
Ed,
Great comparison! The Leaf is indeed built on the same platform as the
Versa, therefore you have found an excellent apples to apples comparison.
Thank you!
-Tom

On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Ed Blackmond <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Mar 3, 2012, at 8:05 AM, Chip Gribben wrote:
>
> > OK. Help me refute this. You all can email me directly or jump into
> > the debate on FB.
> >
> > "No Chip, you are wrong. The reason it's (fossil fuels) economical
> > is because fossil fuels deliver the most energy per unit of volume
> > based on modern day technology. They simply have not come up with
> > any other economically VIABLE source of energy to replace it. "
> >
>
> He talks about apples and oranges, and concludes that grapes are good.
>
> The energy storage density of gasoline has nothing to do with the
> economics.  It does have to do with the distance a vehicle can travel
> before it needs to refuel.  It also has to do with the amount of time
> it takes to refuel.
>
> I purchase my electricity at something just under $0.05/KWhr (when I
> purchase it between midnight and 7am).  That five cents takes my Leaf
> more than 2.5 miles.  That is much more economically viable than
> gasoline.  The price of gasoline is well over $4.00/gal here.  Five
> cents of gasoline would take a Nissan Versa (pretty much the same car
> as a Leaf but with an ICE instead of an electric motor) about 3/8
> mile.  That makes the Nissan Leaf about 6 times as economically viable
> as the ICE Versa.
>
> Ed
>
> >
> > Chip
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--
Remember, it is not that the glass is half empty, in reality, the glass is
merely twice the size that it needs to be! -TNT'82
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Re: Help me with this debate

EVDL Administrator
In reply to this post by Chip Gribben
On 3 Mar 2012 at 11:05, Chip Gribben wrote:

> The reason it's (fossil fuels) economical is because
> fossil fuels deliver the most energy per unit of volume

A little background might help here.  Is someone saying that petroleum and
other nonrenewable fuels are "economical"?  Compared to what?  And where?

Gasoline appears to be relatively cheap in the US because some of the costs
of producing it are paid out of our taxes.  These include military actions
in and around petroleum-producing nations, and tax breaks and subsidies to
petroleum producers.  There are other costs which can be even tougher to pin
down, such as the effect on the US economy of the change in our balance of
payments.  Some people argue that we should also include costs for the
pollution it produces, including health effects.  Maybe we should also
include the costs to regulate the petroleum industry (regardless of what you
think of that regulation).

And of course any realistic and honest comparison has to take into account
the external costs of other energy sources, too.  

In the end, much as I hate to say it, the situation is so complex that you
can pretty much decide what you want the conclusion to be, and find the
numbers that make it turn out that way.  

So take this with a huge crystal of salt, but I've seen estimates of the
external costs for gasoline that vary from around $1.65 a gallon all the way
up to nearly $15 per gallon.

To me, the big reason to drive electric has nothing to do with the cost.  

With an ICEV, you're mostly stuck with the stuff the corner filling station
sells.  You pay what they ask because you don't have a choice.  

You could convert to cng or propane, but then you've just swapped one near-
monopoly for another.  You could fuel a diesel with vegetable oil, but
again, you've locked yourself into a single fuel source and, short of having
a car for every fuel, you don't have much bargaining room.  

You can't make your own fuel - you might refine WVO in your cellar, but
you're still getting the fuel from a supplier who can charge you whatever he
wants - or even stop supplying the fuel to you if he can get a better deal
elsewhere.

With an EV, your fuel options open up.  The big difference is that you can
make your own fuel at home, with PVs on the roof or a wind machine in the
back yard. The cost is mostly fixed and predictable - and it's reliable.

You're not subject to the whims of supply and demand and politics, and what
they can do to oil prices and availability.  Just ask any of us who remember
the mid-1970s, and the long lines waiting for a 5 or 10 gallon allocation at
the local filling station.  

http://alternativeenergy.procon.org/files/1-alternative-energy-images/gas-
lines-during-the-1973-oil-embargo.jpg

http://tinyurl.com/73y4o2p

It's about choice and stability, not cost.  EVs give you a fuel choice you
just don't have with ICEVs - including making your own.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: Help me with this debate

Chris Tromley
In reply to this post by Ed Blackmond
Economics has nothing to do with it.  Driving electric whenever possible is
the right thing to do because -

It's the right thing to do.

Seriously, who with an IQ over 50 can defend oil as better for humankind?
 More convenient, yes.  Cheaper, yes.  (As of today, but these comparisons
are changing fast.)  Not better.  If you can't see that you aren't paying
attention or you have an agenda.

We drive electric because it's the right thing to do.  End of story.

Chris
LeSled is for sale!
http://www.evalbum.com/274
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Re: Help me with this debate

Cor van de Water
The reason that it is the right thing to is because
a large part of the (hidden) cost of oil is not
reflected into the price of oil, for example the
effect on environment and health from pollution.

Since this is an EV list, I won't go any deeper into
that morass, but I completely agree that EVs are
the right thing where appropriate (only about 95%
of the time ;-)


Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Chris Tromley
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2012 7:18 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Help me with this debate

Economics has nothing to do with it.  Driving electric whenever possible
is the right thing to do because -

It's the right thing to do.

Seriously, who with an IQ over 50 can defend oil as better for
humankind?
 More convenient, yes.  Cheaper, yes.  (As of today, but these
comparisons are changing fast.)  Not better.  If you can't see that you
aren't paying attention or you have an agenda.

We drive electric because it's the right thing to do.  End of story.

Chris
LeSled is for sale!
http://www.evalbum.com/274
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Re: Help me with this debate

AMPhibian
In reply to this post by Voltswagon
Voltswagon wrote
 It takes more electricity to make a gallon of gas than it does to drive the distance than gallon would give you in an electric car.
I see this repeated too often and I don't believe it's accurate.  There seems to be around 7kWh's of ENERGY used to recover, transport, and refine a gallon of gas, probably more for tar sands oil, but only a small portion of that is actual electricity, and much of that electricity is generated on site in co-generation plants.  
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Re: Help me with this debate

Gary Krysztopik-2
In reply to this post by Chip Gribben
Some have already mentioned the externalities associated with gas and
that the real cost is upwards of $10 per gallon when considering some
military costs and subsidies.  I think it is much greater when including
health, spills and terrorism.

As far as energy density, yes gas is very good but most of it is wasted
as heat.  EV's are much more efficient so batteries only have to get
about 25% as good as gas to be equal.  We still have a ways to go but I
think it will get there.

What also must be considered in economics is the future.  It's a very
safe bet that gas will go way up and that electricity will stay the same
or get cheaper.  Part of what makes so much sense with EV's is looking
at where we are going, not where we are right now.

Gary Krysztopik
ZWheelz, LLC - www.ZWheelz.com
Alamo City Electric Auto Association - www.aceaa.org
blog - http://voices.mysanantonio.com/drive_electric_san_antonio/
San Antonio, TX


On 3/3/2012 10:05 AM, Chip Gribben wrote:

> OK. Help me refute this. You all can email me directly or jump into the debate on FB.
>
> "No Chip, you are wrong. The reason it's (fossil fuels) economical is because fossil fuels deliver the most energy per unit of volume based on modern day technology. They simply have not come up with any other economically VIABLE source of energy to replace it."
>
>
> Chip
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>

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Re: Help me with this debate

Danpatgal
In reply to this post by AMPhibian
AMPhibian wrote
Voltswagon wrote
 It takes more electricity to make a gallon of gas than it does to drive the distance than gallon would give you in an electric car.
I see this repeated too often and I don't believe it's accurate.  There seems to be around 7kWh's of ENERGY used to recover, transport, and refine a gallon of gas, probably more for tar sands oil, but only a small portion of that is actual electricity, and much of that electricity is generated on site in co-generation plants.
I had also heard this, and it's not quite true.  You can see my realization in this thread a few months back: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Nissan-labels-dirty-power-claims-bs-tp4159325p4161061.html;cid=1330908472113-711

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Re: Help me with this debate

Mike Willmon
In reply to this post by AMPhibian
7KWh will get my archaic Electrabishi conversion 21 miles, it got 15 mpg
when it was a gasser.  Proof is in the pudding ;-)

On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 5:53 AM, AMPhibian <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Voltswagon wrote
> >
> >  It takes more electricity to make a gallon of gas than it does to drive
> > the distance than gallon would give you in an electric car.
> >
>
> I see this repeated too often and I don't believe it's accurate.  There
> seems to be around 7kWh's of ENERGY used to recover, transport, and refine
> a
> gallon of gas, probably more for tar sands oil, but only a small portion of
> that is actual electricity, and much of that electricity is generated on
> site in co-generation plants.
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Help-me-with-this-debate-tp4441834p4443566.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
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Re: Help me with this debate

Mike Willmon
In reply to this post by Gary Krysztopik-2
Very well stated!!!  Energy density of gas is higher.  But it has to be to
compete with electricity which is much more efficient to use.

I think Global warming is caused not by the CO2, but by the heat we are
pumping into our atmosphere through our radiators.  Think about the heat
required by say a 20 story business building.  Then think about the heat
wasted by the ICE's that those people have to drive to get to work each
day.  I would venture that more is wasted in driving to work than by
heating their building.   Yet we burn fuel to do both   :-O

Its not a matter of whether ICE or electric is better or more efficient, or
cheaper in the short term than the other, its about what solution will
decrease the usage of energy.  Burning oil is way more efficient in the
power plant than it is in your car, and cleaner too. Our Federal government
makes sure of that.  Not to mention the cost effectiveness of getting it to
your car via power lines over the crude way we have of dumping fuel tanks
from semi's to all the local gas stations... don't they use fuel too?

Someone prove me wrong.

Power companies pride themselves on their efficiencies of power generation,
do car manufacturers? A car manufacturer should be brought to the table to
prove that the energy efficiency of their car is better than using the
electricity of the electrical power plant.  That ought to get interesting
as the "Power" companies start going to more renewable generation methods,
and they already are.

We oughtta be lobbying the electrical power companies to herald the coming
of EV's.  Too bad many of them are in the clutches of the oil producers.
 But they don't have to be :-)

Mike

On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Gary Krysztopik <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Some have already mentioned the externalities associated with gas and
> that the real cost is upwards of $10 per gallon when considering some
> military costs and subsidies.  I think it is much greater when including
> health, spills and terrorism.
>
> As far as energy density, yes gas is very good but most of it is wasted
> as heat.  EV's are much more efficient so batteries only have to get
> about 25% as good as gas to be equal.  We still have a ways to go but I
> think it will get there.
>
> What also must be considered in economics is the future.  It's a very
> safe bet that gas will go way up and that electricity will stay the same
> or get cheaper.  Part of what makes so much sense with EV's is looking
> at where we are going, not where we are right now.
>
> Gary Krysztopik
> ZWheelz, LLC - www.ZWheelz.com
> Alamo City Electric Auto Association - www.aceaa.org
> blog - http://voices.mysanantonio.com/drive_electric_san_antonio/
> San Antonio, TX
>
>
> On 3/3/2012 10:05 AM, Chip Gribben wrote:
> > OK. Help me refute this. You all can email me directly or jump into the
> debate on FB.
> >
> > "No Chip, you are wrong. The reason it's (fossil fuels) economical is
> because fossil fuels deliver the most energy per unit of volume based on
> modern day technology. They simply have not come up with any other
> economically VIABLE source of energy to replace it."
> >
> >
> > Chip
> > -------------- next part --------------
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>
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Re: Help me with this debate

AMPhibian
In reply to this post by Mike Willmon
I'm not sure what you are proving since the "7kWh of electricity used to produce a gallon of gas" figure is not accurate.  Actual electricity used in the operation of a refinery works out to probably less than 1kWh per gallon, which will get your car less than 3 miles.

Mike Willmon wrote
7KWh will get my archaic Electrabishi conversion 21 miles, it got 15 mpg
when it was a gasser.  Proof is in the pudding ;-)

On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 5:53 AM, AMPhibian <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Voltswagon wrote
> >
> >  It takes more electricity to make a gallon of gas than it does to drive
> > the distance than gallon would give you in an electric car.
> >
>
> I see this repeated too often and I don't believe it's accurate.  There
> seems to be around 7kWh's of ENERGY used to recover, transport, and refine
> a
> gallon of gas, probably more for tar sands oil, but only a small portion of
> that is actual electricity, and much of that electricity is generated on
> site in co-generation plants.
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Help-me-with-this-debate-tp4441834p4443566.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
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Re: Help me with this debate

AMPhibian
In reply to this post by Mike Willmon
Mike Willmon wrote

Someone prove me wrong.

Mike
 I believe the GREET model takes into account all inputs into the systems, well to wheels and all that.

http://greet.es.anl.gov/