High performance EV conversion and timing?

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High performance EV conversion and timing?

pgroveTom
All,

I'm curious if anyone has any thoughts for me? Since the new Obama administration has rightfully re-invigorated the EV marketplace, very little progressive development has occurred for many years without any commercial drivers. Now that Obama has awoken the DOE to help fund and endorse the very wise renewable smart electric grid and EV based transportation architecture, the developments are going wild. Tesla was brave ( and smart) to begin during the dark ages but the muscle of the technology world is just now going wild. That suggests to me that during the next few years, EV components are likely to benefit greatly and will jump in cost/performance due to competition and innovation. So now that I'm wanting to move from my 13KW PV project top my C5 Corvette EV conversion, the timing looks premature. Does anyone else share that view? Any thoughts appreciated?

It appears that innovation in batteries, electric motors, controllers and just about anything related to EVs is being pursued by so many. It won't take long before the Tesla Roadster which is very cool, is matched in performance and cost driven down.

I have been looking at either buying a Tesla Roadster or converting my Chevy C5 Corvette to EV. I just completed the first phase of my project to derive all my energy from the sun by designing and building a 13KW PV system. I now want to move my primary transportation to EV and move to PG&Es E-9 TOU rates so both my home and auto energy is essentially all derived from sunlight. I have a system engineering background and started 3 high tech startups as a founder and can afford and want to "do it right". That doesn't mean throw money to the wind but build an EV that is both good performance and cost effective for that performance. I have just begun my research and am still rather naive but it immediately jumped out at me that EV has gone from "suppressed" by big oil to exploding due to the new Obama administration and DOE loans.

Tesla saw the obvious and were brave to buck the suppression. If we don't move to EV with the electric power derived from renewable sources such as the sun, wind, geothermal, hydrokinetic etc... and away from fossil fuel burning transportation, Global Warming will become unstoppable and Peak Oil will arrive in the next decade or two. It doesn't take a rocket scientist and I'm sure most of the EV people already "get it" that its inevitable.

I own a 2004 C5 Corvette special edition and want to convert it to an EV. Since my power is free from sunlight, I would like the best performance, similar to the Tesla Roadster albeit my Corvette is heavier and won't be a rocket. I my initial searching, the electric motor closest to the Tesla in performance is the Raser Technologies Symetron P-200 AC induction motor. - Specs .It produces over 400 lbs of torque up to 4600 RPM and then falls off to about 200 at 10K RPM. It will produce 134 HP continuously and 268 HP peak. They also provide the PCU-200 controller. These appear to be the highest performance drive components but its not clear if they are really available. Does anyone know? Does anyone know of a comparable alternative? These have been used in a Formula One and the PHEV Hummer, Schwartnagger has been seen driving. That suggests that prototypes are available and work and Raser Technologies appears to be trying to provide drive trains to the light truck market. Does !
 anyone know anything about these and if they are available anywhere and at what price?

Can anyone offer any thoughts on the most recent battery choices and prices.  Kokam, Valence etc..  
Kokam application - http://www.proev.com/P1Batt.htm 
Valence -  http://www.valence.com/products/battery_modules

Does anyone have any general advice or pointers/links similar to the Metric Mind "High End No Compromise EV conversion example" It seems a few years old.

thanks for any thoughts!

Tom


FYI

Here are a few things I have come across in my research that are interesting:

EV Help - http://evhelp.com/ 

Metric Mind - http://www.metricmind.com/

NBEA Battery presentation - www.nbeaa.org/presentations/batteries.ppt


High End No Compromise EV conversion example - High End No Compromise EV conversion example

Raser Technologies - http://www.rasertech.com/

Tesla Battery System - www.teslamotors.com/display_data/TeslaRoadsterBatterySystem.pdf

Stanford "Technical Assessment of High Energy Batteries for light duty EVs" - http://gcep.stanford.edu/pdfs/assessments/ev_battery_assessment.pdf

Stanford "A quantum leap forward for LI-Ion Battery Cathodes" - http://gcep.stanford.edu/pdfs/-IUwoO0omIeF6HDYZPqYeg/2.9.3_Thomas_Web_Version.pdf

Tesla - "The Future of Cars is Electric - Brian Randall AAE Show 2008" http://www.aae-show.com/Presentations/Brian%20Randall%20Tesla%20presentation%20aae08%20Sept%2008.ppt 

Competitive Analysis of Tesla Motors - http://bear.cba.ufl.edu/dinopoulos/ECP5705/projects/CS-Telsa-Web.ppt
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Re: High performance EV conversion and timing?

Dave Hymers
If it seems pre-mature to be starting on something, then I'd not start with
the C5. Have you thought about converting something a little cheaper, with a
DC system and seeing how much performance you can squeeze from components
readily available. It would end up being much more inexpensive and may yield
some valuable time to experiment putting you in a better position to ride
the EV performance wave when it picks up speed.
Congrats on the 13kw PV system btw.
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Re: High performance EV conversion and timing?

EVDL Administrator
In reply to this post by pgroveTom
First, just a reminder to you and others that the EVDL tries to be non-
political, so I encourage others to discuss only the EV-related parts of
this post and not to debate such issues as partisan political background (if
there is any) to current developments; the controversy over climate change,
peak oil, and the like; and speculation about oil company collusion in
allegedly suppressing EVs.  All these thiings are interesting but there's a
LOT of disagreement here over them, and I think it's better to stick with
what we DO agree on - promoting EVs.

With that out of the way, I can tell you that you'll get more raw torque per
dollar from a DC series motor.  That's also the type that most folks here
have the most experience with.  I expect that you'll get lots of argument in
favor of this motor (basically a forklift motor) if you ask the drag racers
on the NEDRA list (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA/).

However, IMO other motor types, including sep-ex DC, AC induction, and DC
brushless, have significant advantages.  Cost isn't usually among them.  
That's not to say they're bad choices!  (I happen to like AC induction,
myself.)  You'll find lots of discussion about this in the archive.

http://evdl.org/archive/

The proprietor of Metric Mind is on this list and he may want to weigh in
with some comments on whether his gear would suit your goals.  

You might also get the kind of zoom you're looking for from a Solectria
induction AC drive intended for buses.  I think I remember seeing a few
large Solectria drives being offered fairly cheaply as part of a distress
lot recently, but that might have been something else.

The "classic" choice for a high performance AC car has long been Alan
Cocconi's AC Propulsion drive.  They aren't cheap, though.

At one time some of the solar racers were using EMS Flux Vector drives.  But
I can't find their homepage any more, and fluxvector.com now redirects to an
industrial vehicle manufacturer, so EMS may have vanished.

We've also fairly recently discussed converting a Corvette; IIRC a friend of
Lee Hart recently did one.  I vaguely remember some discussion about the
problem of finding a suitable rear end; again, check the archive.

Personally, I think if I were going to convert a 'Vette, I'd be more
interested in converting one of the early (pre-'68) Sting Rays, which are
smaller and I hope lighter - or perhaps the late 60s vintage 'Vette - rather
than the newer, larger, heavier models.  

Or, better, something still smaller and lighter; the lighter the glider, the
lower the power you need for an outrageous hp:kg ratio.  (I have a
longstanding, unrequited, completely irrational lust for Fiat 850 Spyders,
for example. ;-)

As for the battery choice, I don't get the impression that many of the EV-
size lithium batteries are happy when producing large amounts of power.  
A123 cells seem to be but AFAIK they make only small cells, and what Tesla
does with massive numbers of small cells sort of defies natural law ;-).  
I'm not daring (or patient) enough to try something similar.  But that's
about the extent of my lithium knowledge, so I'll let those with more
experience take over from here.  I will say that good AGM lead will very
definitely give you the power youi're looking for.

Hope this helps.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: High performance EV conversion and timing?

David Dymaxion
Motor Trend had an article on how vehicle weights have ballooned. One notable exception: The Corvette. Corvettes have weighed close to the same for their history. Chevy has had to work hard with lightweight parts to do this, especially given the newer cars also have bigger brakes, bigger wheels, air conditioning, etc., all things that add weight.

The earlier Corvettes might be a bit smaller, but have worse aero.


I had a Fiat 850. Fun car, and it was very easy to push! It did get pushed alot.



________________________________
From: David Roden <[hidden email]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Sent: Mon, October 5, 2009 3:14:10 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?

... Personally, I think if I were going to convert a 'Vette, I'd be more interested in converting one of the early (pre-'68) Sting Rays, which are smaller and I hope lighter - or perhaps the late 60s vintage 'Vette - rather than the newer, larger, heavier models.  

Or, better, something still smaller and lighter; the lighter the glider, the lower the power you need for an outrageous hp:kg ratio.  (I have a longstanding, unrequited, completely irrational lust for Fiat 850 Spyders,
for example. ;-) ...



     
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Nifty blog entry on the KillaCycle and ElectroCat

Bill Dube
A pal at work put up a very nifty article on the KillaCycle on his
Science and Technology blog:
http://scoopthedirt.com/Tech/?p=72

Bill Dube'

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Re: High performance EV conversion and timing?

David Dymaxion
In reply to this post by pgroveTom
You can make your Corvette just as fast, or even faster than the Tesla -- if you have the $$ there's no need to make compromises. If nothing else, you could throw in the equivalent of 2 Tesla drivetrains and go make Teslas cry.

As Dave R. said, the NEDRA group has the go-fast experts. A123 batteries seem to be the favorite for the fastest vehicles.

http://www.diyelectriccar.com has a couple of Corvette conversions being blogged, plus a Camaro/Firebird or 2.




________________________________
From: Tom <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Mon, October 5, 2009 12:00:35 PM
Subject: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?

... I own a 2004 C5 Corvette special edition and want to convert it to an EV. Since my power is free from sunlight, I would like the best performance, similar to the Tesla Roadster albeit my Corvette is heavier and won't be a rocket. I my initial searching, the electric motor closest to the Tesla in performance is the Raser Technologies Symetron P-200 AC induction motor. - Specs .It produces over 400 lbs of torque up to 4600 RPM and then falls off to about 200 at 10K RPM. It will produce 134 HP continuously and 268 HP peak. They also provide the PCU-200 controller. These appear to be the highest performance drive components but its not clear if they are really available. Does anyone know? Does anyone know of a comparable alternative? These have been used in a Formula One and the PHEV Hummer, Schwartnagger has been seen driving. That suggests that prototypes are available and work and Raser Technologies appears to be trying to provide drive trains to the
 light truck market. Does !
anyone know anything about these and if they are available anywhere and at what price?

Can anyone offer any thoughts on the most recent battery choices and prices.  Kokam, Valence etc..  
Kokam application - http://www.proev.com/P1Batt.htm 
Valence -  http://www.valence.com/products/battery_modules

Does anyone have any general advice or pointers/links similar to the Metric Mind "High End No Compromise EV conversion example" It seems a few years old. ...


     
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Re: High performance EV conversion and timing?

pgroveTom
In reply to this post by Dave Hymers
I see your point but how about this. If I converted my C5 to achieve the
experience and then upgraded it in a few years when the motor, controller
and battery advancements looked good. My C5 is a Lemans special edition so I
really want it to be my EV. If I buy another donor, then I get my experience
on the wrong vehicle assuming I would not damage my C5 converting it. If I
use the C5 as my initial donor to get actual C5 experience, knowing I will
remove it later, then only the EV equipment will be duplicated. I've driven
it for 5 years and want something new anyway but want it to be my EV
eventually. Its similar to your strategy but I just convert my C5 twice
rather than a cheap donor followed by my C5. Do you think the modifications
to mount the EV motor/controller and batteries will do permanent or
difficult to reverse changes? The engine compartment is rather large as is
the hatchback and fuel tank area.

thoughts if I can afford it? Downsides?

Tom

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Hymers" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 1:59 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?


> If it seems pre-mature to be starting on something, then I'd not start
> with
> the C5. Have you thought about converting something a little cheaper, with
> a
> DC system and seeing how much performance you can squeeze from components
> readily available. It would end up being much more inexpensive and may
> yield
> some valuable time to experiment putting you in a better position to ride
> the EV performance wave when it picks up speed.
> Congrats on the 13kw PV system btw.
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Re: High performance EV conversion and timing?

pgroveTom
In reply to this post by David Dymaxion
Sorry about any political oriented comments. I apologize.

My 2004 C5 Corvette is the Leman's special edition Z06 and has a curb weight
of 3100lbs ( a little less than the standard due to the carbon fiber hood).
The engine weighs about 450lbs. Is this really an excessive weight for an EV
with higher performance components? Its has a great .29 aero drag yet lots
of room in the engine compartment and gas tank/hatchback area for the EV
conversion. I was considering buying a Tesla seriously and my C5's value is
not spectacular while the Tesla is $110,00 before the options. It would
probably run $125K+ with options tax etc.. If I convert my C5, I would break
even if I spent $100K on the EV components and I would prefer my C5 over the
Tesla look.

I would like comments or ideas on a few concerns due to my being a novice at
EVs.

Is the 6spd transmission usable or even needed? The Tesla uses direct drive
without any transmission since the AC induction motor produces high torque
from zero on up in RPM. They told me they tried to put a 2 spd transmission
in it and blew three manufacturers transmissions up due to the instant
torque.

Is that torque problem destroying transmissions common and is direct drive
with fixed ratios unusual or the norm?

Does the clutch help or since the torque starts at zero, it would still blow
up something or burn out the clutch?

Is this only a problem with high performance motors?

Would my rear end be usable? What are the deciding factors beside gear
ratio? If the motor is in its power band from zero to 5K then

Please excuse my ignorance as a beginner -

Does it make sense for example that if a motor had maximum torque from 0-
5000 RPM, that would be a sensible target operational range?

If true then a motor spinning and has flat torque from say 0- 5000 RPM and
my C5 rear tire diameter is 81" and one desires a speed range of 0-100MPH

then  100MPH = 1.67MPM so 1.67 miles = 5280 feet x 1.67= 8817 Feet when
divided by 6.75 feet ( one 81" revolution) = 1306RPM at rear wheel.

So the rear axle must spin at 1306RPM for 100MPH at 81" or 6.75' tire
diameter. If the motor spins at 5000RPM divided by 1306 = a ratio of about
3.8 to 1.

So for a direct drive, there must be a 3.8 to one gear ratio slowing the
motor RPMs down so 0-5000RPM = 0-100MPH.

Does that make sense and is it relevant? How does the HP curve fit in? Or is
it desirable to use a transmission as with a gasoline engine to try and keep
the Revs in a tight band with an electric motor?

The C5 corvette has highly tuned suspension so the new EV weight
distribution, unless matched somehow, could cause havoc with the handling?

thanks

Tom





http://www.exoticcarsite.com/pictures/Cars/chevrolet/corvette_z06_commemorative_2004/2004_chevrolet_corvette_z06_commemorative_edition-4.jpg
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Dymaxion" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 2:39 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?


> Motor Trend had an article on how vehicle weights have ballooned. One
> notable exception: The Corvette. Corvettes have weighed close to the same
> for their history. Chevy has had to work hard with lightweight parts to do
> this, especially given the newer cars also have bigger brakes, bigger
> wheels, air conditioning, etc., all things that add weight.
>
> The earlier Corvettes might be a bit smaller, but have worse aero.
>
>
> I had a Fiat 850. Fun car, and it was very easy to push! It did get pushed
> alot.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: David Roden <[hidden email]>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Mon, October 5, 2009 3:14:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?
>
> ... Personally, I think if I were going to convert a 'Vette, I'd be more
> interested in converting one of the early (pre-'68) Sting Rays, which are
> smaller and I hope lighter - or perhaps the late 60s vintage 'Vette -
> rather than the newer, larger, heavier models.
>
> Or, better, something still smaller and lighter; the lighter the glider,
> the lower the power you need for an outrageous hp:kg ratio.  (I have a
> longstanding, unrequited, completely irrational lust for Fiat 850 Spyders,
> for example. ;-) ...
>
>
>
>
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>


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Re: High performance EV conversion and timing?

pgroveTom
In reply to this post by David Dymaxion
I have a $100K budget. How will that do?

Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Dymaxion" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 2:50 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?


> You can make your Corvette just as fast, or even faster than the Tesla --  
> if you have the $$ there's no need to make compromises. If nothing else,
> you could throw in the equivalent of 2 Tesla drivetrains and go make
> Teslas cry.
>
> As Dave R. said, the NEDRA group has the go-fast experts. A123 batteries
> seem to be the favorite for the fastest vehicles.
>
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com has a couple of Corvette conversions being
> blogged, plus a Camaro/Firebird or 2.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Tom <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Mon, October 5, 2009 12:00:35 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?
>
> ... I own a 2004 C5 Corvette special edition and want to convert it to an
> EV. Since my power is free from sunlight, I would like the best
> performance, similar to the Tesla Roadster albeit my Corvette is heavier
> and won't be a rocket. I my initial searching, the electric motor closest
> to the Tesla in performance is the Raser Technologies Symetron P-200 AC
> induction motor. - Specs .It produces over 400 lbs of torque up to 4600
> RPM and then falls off to about 200 at 10K RPM. It will produce 134 HP
> continuously and 268 HP peak. They also provide the PCU-200 controller.
> These appear to be the highest performance drive components but its not
> clear if they are really available. Does anyone know? Does anyone know of
> a comparable alternative? These have been used in a Formula One and the
> PHEV Hummer, Schwartnagger has been seen driving. That suggests that
> prototypes are available and work and Raser Technologies appears to be
> trying to provide drive trains to the
> light truck market. Does !
> anyone know anything about these and if they are available anywhere and at
> what price?
>
> Can anyone offer any thoughts on the most recent battery choices and
> prices.  Kokam, Valence etc..
> Kokam application - http://www.proev.com/P1Batt.htm
> Valence -  http://www.valence.com/products/battery_modules
>
> Does anyone have any general advice or pointers/links similar to the
> Metric Mind "High End No Compromise EV conversion example" It seems a few
> years old. ...
>
>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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>


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Re: High performance EV conversion and timing?

Morgan LaMoore
In reply to this post by pgroveTom
On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 6:46 PM, Tom <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I have a $100K budget. How will that do?
>
> Tom

I think that budget should be more than sufficient. Here's what I'd do
with that much to spend on an EV:

I very strongly recommend A123 batteries. They have excellent
power-to-weight ratio; they are used by the Killacycle to get a 0 to
60 time of under 1 second.

Contact James Morrison of EV Components about getting A123's; he's
considering buying an entire container directly from the factory,
which would give you a good price with little hassle. It may be
possible for them to assemble the cells into a large pack for you,
which would really save you a lot of effort.

Depending on how much range you want, you could spend $10k to $40k on
batteries. ($40k would give you more capacity than a Tesla.) This is
based on James Morrison buying a full container of them and selling
them at under $5 per cell.

You'd have to add the cost of a BMS, which EV Components also sells. I
have no idea of the quality of any currently available BMS'es, though.

With a 100s80p A123 pack (under $40,000 if James Morrison buys a
container), you would have a nominal voltage of 320V and a full
voltage of 370V. At 2000 amps, you would have a voltage sag of 25V, or
790HP from the batteries (assuming nominal voltage, not full charge).
This is hardly stressing the batteries, but it is far more than your
motor controller will be able to handle. It would also have 59kWh
energy storage, compared to 52kWh in a Tesla.

That many batteries would weigh about 1230 pounds for the cells alone,
though, plus the weight of the interconnects and BMS. If you don't
need as much range, consider using a smaller battery pack to save
weight and money. For example, a pack of the same voltage but half the
capacity would still produce 720HP from the battery at 2000A (both
numbers based on 10mOhm internal resistance, which is what the
Killacycle's data indicates).

-Morgan LaMoore

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Re: High performance EV conversion and timing?

Morgan LaMoore
In reply to this post by pgroveTom
On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 6:46 PM, Tom <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I have a $100K budget. How will that do?
>
> Tom

Next is the drive system. I recommend staying away from RPM ranges
much higher than what's used in powerful gas engines. Sure, the specs
on that 10k RPM motor may be great, but what good is it if you can't
reliably translate that power to the wheels?

That said, you could use a 10k RPM motor and just cap it at 7k RPMs;
the power band is wide enough that it could still perform quite well.

With your budget, whether to use a gearbox is a matter of personal
preference. Do you enjoy driving a manual? Or would you prefer to be
in the same gear from 0 to top speed, with plenty of torque no matter
what? Your power band will be wide enough that you won't have to shift
much even if you do have a transmission. Either way, to handle the
torque, just look at what transmissions and differentials drag racers
are using.

I think AC and DC are both viable for this project. Here's how I'd do
it with DC:

Use a Z2k-EHV controller with 2 Warp 9" motors mechanically coupled
together. The basic parts should cost about $8000. For an example of a
current vehicle using this setup, see this dyno graph:

http://www.neon-john.com/EV/Crazyhorse_Pinto_HP_Torque_06AUG08.pdf

I believe the torque ramping up at the beginning is because the
throttle response wasn't fast enough to put out full torque before the
engine got over 1000 RPMs; it should be capable of giving over 1250
ft-lbs all the way down to 0 RPMs.

The dip at 2800 RPMs is the controller electrically shifting the
motors from series to parallel.

Also, note that for most of the curve, he's limited by the power of
his batteries, which can "only" give a little over 300HP. Your A123
pack should be significantly more powerful than that.

However, he's drag racing this vehicle, so he's pushing it to a peak
performance far beyond its continuous rating. There's some things you
should do to make your vehicle reliable:

You should probably use lower peak motor current, meaning lower peak
torque. This setup would likely still have much more torque than an AC
setup, though.

You should blow air through the motors with a powerful, high-flow-rate
blower. I recommend keeping it on all the time to keep temperatures
down.

You should put a thermocouple on/in the brushes (out of the airflow)
so you can monitor temperature. If temperatures get too high, ease up
on the accelerator a bit.

If you wanted longer sprints near peak power (for racing, I can't
think of any other reason), you could move up to dual Warp 11"s.

I have no idea whether the AC motor and controller you mentioned are
available, but take a look at www.acpropulsion.com and their drive
system. It's the same peak power (200kW, 268HP peak). As of a few
years ago, they sold their previous generation drive system for about
$25,000; there's a decent chance their current generation is available
if you contact them. The Tesla team started with their previous
generation motor and controller and diverged from there.

Here's some pros and cons of currently available high-performance AC
and DC systems:

The DC system will have much more torque, more power, and cost much
less. There's also significantly more expertise available on this list
to help you with it.

The AC system will weigh less (176 lbs vs. 342 lbs), have slightly
higher efficiency, better power at high RPMs, and be capable of
regenerative braking.

In a direct drive setup, I recommend the DC system. (With AC, you
couldn't get high enough gear reduction, so you'd likely have less
torque than a Tesla with more weight.) With a transmission, either one
could work quite well.

With a DC setup, the battery, motors, and controller should cost under
$50k, leaving you with more than enough money for labor and the many
miscellaneous costs that will pop up.

Good luck with this project.

-Morgan LaMoore

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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Re: High performance EV conversion and timing?

pgroveTom
Thanks for all the ideas.

I have read over and over that the A123 batteries you mention appear to be
quite good. Some of the latest items like this are being swallowed up by
auto manufacturers . The list of partners they have and their IPO plus
government incentives usually makes it hard for individuals to get unless
connected. Thanks for the suggestions. I'll look into both the propulsion
systems.

Tom


----- Original Message -----
From: "Morgan LaMoore" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 5:49 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?


> On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 6:46 PM, Tom <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I have a $100K budget. How will that do?
>>
>> Tom
>
> Next is the drive system. I recommend staying away from RPM ranges
> much higher than what's used in powerful gas engines. Sure, the specs
> on that 10k RPM motor may be great, but what good is it if you can't
> reliably translate that power to the wheels?
>
> That said, you could use a 10k RPM motor and just cap it at 7k RPMs;
> the power band is wide enough that it could still perform quite well.
>
> With your budget, whether to use a gearbox is a matter of personal
> preference. Do you enjoy driving a manual? Or would you prefer to be
> in the same gear from 0 to top speed, with plenty of torque no matter
> what? Your power band will be wide enough that you won't have to shift
> much even if you do have a transmission. Either way, to handle the
> torque, just look at what transmissions and differentials drag racers
> are using.
>
> I think AC and DC are both viable for this project. Here's how I'd do
> it with DC:
>
> Use a Z2k-EHV controller with 2 Warp 9" motors mechanically coupled
> together. The basic parts should cost about $8000. For an example of a
> current vehicle using this setup, see this dyno graph:
>
> http://www.neon-john.com/EV/Crazyhorse_Pinto_HP_Torque_06AUG08.pdf
>
> I believe the torque ramping up at the beginning is because the
> throttle response wasn't fast enough to put out full torque before the
> engine got over 1000 RPMs; it should be capable of giving over 1250
> ft-lbs all the way down to 0 RPMs.
>
> The dip at 2800 RPMs is the controller electrically shifting the
> motors from series to parallel.
>
> Also, note that for most of the curve, he's limited by the power of
> his batteries, which can "only" give a little over 300HP. Your A123
> pack should be significantly more powerful than that.
>
> However, he's drag racing this vehicle, so he's pushing it to a peak
> performance far beyond its continuous rating. There's some things you
> should do to make your vehicle reliable:
>
> You should probably use lower peak motor current, meaning lower peak
> torque. This setup would likely still have much more torque than an AC
> setup, though.
>
> You should blow air through the motors with a powerful, high-flow-rate
> blower. I recommend keeping it on all the time to keep temperatures
> down.
>
> You should put a thermocouple on/in the brushes (out of the airflow)
> so you can monitor temperature. If temperatures get too high, ease up
> on the accelerator a bit.
>
> If you wanted longer sprints near peak power (for racing, I can't
> think of any other reason), you could move up to dual Warp 11"s.
>
> I have no idea whether the AC motor and controller you mentioned are
> available, but take a look at www.acpropulsion.com and their drive
> system. It's the same peak power (200kW, 268HP peak). As of a few
> years ago, they sold their previous generation drive system for about
> $25,000; there's a decent chance their current generation is available
> if you contact them. The Tesla team started with their previous
> generation motor and controller and diverged from there.
>
> Here's some pros and cons of currently available high-performance AC
> and DC systems:
>
> The DC system will have much more torque, more power, and cost much
> less. There's also significantly more expertise available on this list
> to help you with it.
>
> The AC system will weigh less (176 lbs vs. 342 lbs), have slightly
> higher efficiency, better power at high RPMs, and be capable of
> regenerative braking.
>
> In a direct drive setup, I recommend the DC system. (With AC, you
> couldn't get high enough gear reduction, so you'd likely have less
> torque than a Tesla with more weight.) With a transmission, either one
> could work quite well.
>
> With a DC setup, the battery, motors, and controller should cost under
> $50k, leaving you with more than enough money for labor and the many
> miscellaneous costs that will pop up.
>
> Good luck with this project.
>
> -Morgan LaMoore
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>


_______________________________________________
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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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Re: High performance EV conversion and timing?

Brian Pikkula
If you are concerned about weight and still want a Corvette feel, you
may want to check out a Factory 5 GTM Supercar.
http://www.factoryfive.com/gtmhome.html

You combine their kit ($20k) with components form a C5 and a Porsche
rear end.  Total ICE weight is 2200 lbs.

For about $55k, you could have a Tesla beater.

Brian




On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 8:35 PM, Tom <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks for all the ideas.
>
> I have read over and over that the A123 batteries you mention appear to be
> quite good. Some of the latest items like this are being swallowed up by
> auto manufacturers . The list of partners they have and their IPO plus
> government incentives usually makes it hard for individuals to get unless
> connected. Thanks for the suggestions. I'll look into both the propulsion
> systems.
>
> Tom
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Morgan LaMoore" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 5:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?
>
>
>> On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 6:46 PM, Tom <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> I have a $100K budget. How will that do?
>>>
>>> Tom
>>
>> Next is the drive system. I recommend staying away from RPM ranges
>> much higher than what's used in powerful gas engines. Sure, the specs
>> on that 10k RPM motor may be great, but what good is it if you can't
>> reliably translate that power to the wheels?
>>
>> That said, you could use a 10k RPM motor and just cap it at 7k RPMs;
>> the power band is wide enough that it could still perform quite well.
>>
>> With your budget, whether to use a gearbox is a matter of personal
>> preference. Do you enjoy driving a manual? Or would you prefer to be
>> in the same gear from 0 to top speed, with plenty of torque no matter
>> what? Your power band will be wide enough that you won't have to shift
>> much even if you do have a transmission. Either way, to handle the
>> torque, just look at what transmissions and differentials drag racers
>> are using.
>>
>> I think AC and DC are both viable for this project. Here's how I'd do
>> it with DC:
>>
>> Use a Z2k-EHV controller with 2 Warp 9" motors mechanically coupled
>> together. The basic parts should cost about $8000. For an example of a
>> current vehicle using this setup, see this dyno graph:
>>
>> http://www.neon-john.com/EV/Crazyhorse_Pinto_HP_Torque_06AUG08.pdf
>>
>> I believe the torque ramping up at the beginning is because the
>> throttle response wasn't fast enough to put out full torque before the
>> engine got over 1000 RPMs; it should be capable of giving over 1250
>> ft-lbs all the way down to 0 RPMs.
>>
>> The dip at 2800 RPMs is the controller electrically shifting the
>> motors from series to parallel.
>>
>> Also, note that for most of the curve, he's limited by the power of
>> his batteries, which can "only" give a little over 300HP. Your A123
>> pack should be significantly more powerful than that.
>>
>> However, he's drag racing this vehicle, so he's pushing it to a peak
>> performance far beyond its continuous rating. There's some things you
>> should do to make your vehicle reliable:
>>
>> You should probably use lower peak motor current, meaning lower peak
>> torque. This setup would likely still have much more torque than an AC
>> setup, though.
>>
>> You should blow air through the motors with a powerful, high-flow-rate
>> blower. I recommend keeping it on all the time to keep temperatures
>> down.
>>
>> You should put a thermocouple on/in the brushes (out of the airflow)
>> so you can monitor temperature. If temperatures get too high, ease up
>> on the accelerator a bit.
>>
>> If you wanted longer sprints near peak power (for racing, I can't
>> think of any other reason), you could move up to dual Warp 11"s.
>>
>> I have no idea whether the AC motor and controller you mentioned are
>> available, but take a look at www.acpropulsion.com and their drive
>> system. It's the same peak power (200kW, 268HP peak). As of a few
>> years ago, they sold their previous generation drive system for about
>> $25,000; there's a decent chance their current generation is available
>> if you contact them. The Tesla team started with their previous
>> generation motor and controller and diverged from there.
>>
>> Here's some pros and cons of currently available high-performance AC
>> and DC systems:
>>
>> The DC system will have much more torque, more power, and cost much
>> less. There's also significantly more expertise available on this list
>> to help you with it.
>>
>> The AC system will weigh less (176 lbs vs. 342 lbs), have slightly
>> higher efficiency, better power at high RPMs, and be capable of
>> regenerative braking.
>>
>> In a direct drive setup, I recommend the DC system. (With AC, you
>> couldn't get high enough gear reduction, so you'd likely have less
>> torque than a Tesla with more weight.) With a transmission, either one
>> could work quite well.
>>
>> With a DC setup, the battery, motors, and controller should cost under
>> $50k, leaving you with more than enough money for labor and the many
>> miscellaneous costs that will pop up.
>>
>> Good luck with this project.
>>
>> -Morgan LaMoore
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



--
Brian in TX
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/960
http://www.evdub.blogspot.com/
It may seem like I am doing nothing, but on a cellular level I'm
really quite busy.

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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Re: High performance EV conversion and timing?

tomw
In reply to this post by pgroveTom
Sounds like you've made up your mind that you really want to do a conversion rather than purchase a Tesla or similar.  There are lots of folks here willing to share their fantasy ev conversion ideas with you and tell you how to spend $100k, so I thought I might give some warnings.  Probably none of them have thought through all the details of those fantasies, and that's where the devil is.  Putting together a high performance vehicle as described in this thread will be difficult with many unknowns.  The A123 cells sound nice with 20C or larger continuous discharge capability permitting use of smaller Ah cells, but how many people have actually used them at that discharge rate in an ev?  None that I know of.  You will be one of the first to try it, along with figuring out what RELIABLE bms to use with so many cells, and charger to use with such a high kWh pack to avoid taking 10 hrs to charge it.  Tesla has worked this out, but you can't purchase those components. The Razer sounds great, but as far as I know none have been sold yet, so it's another unproven system component.  Last I saw there were only CAD drawings, not even a photo of a completed motor.  AC Propulsion's motor/controller are well-tested.  

I agree that there are a great many companies now working on evs and much progress will be made over the next few years, both in components and complete vehicles.  It sounds like you just want to start doing a conversion, and are willing to do another when better components are available.  I recommend doing a lot of work up front researching and comparing components, doing simulations of performance, and planning out the complete system with motor, controller, cells, bms... exactly where/how you will fit/interface things, etc.  Don't leave those "little details" for later, or you may find you made an expensive wrong choice, or could have done much better if you had thought about it a bit more.  I expect it will take you more than a year to educate yourself suitably and do such a conversion, and by then there will be cars announced that make the Tesla looked old and tattered, and new components available that make yours look lame.   If you think that's ok, you really prefer to do your own conversion, enjoy digging to find solutions to problems, and are prepared to do a first conversion then improve on the next one, then forge ahead!

As far as irreversible changes, you will likely not use the same size/shape cells the second time so keep that in mind when you make/mount the box(es) for the first ones - you may want to replace or modify them.  The motor will likely be a different size also, so keep that in mind when making mounts - you'll likely want to remove them later without weakening the frame.  Actually I think experience on another vehicle would be just fine.  You will discover what the weaknesses in technology are, become far more familiar with what is available, see what areas are critical for a quality conversion, and get lots of ideas on how the C5 is a better or worse donor, how you could best convert it, and what components would be best. Meanwhile it is untouched, waiting for you to apply all that learning and do it right the first time. Or you may find a much lighter, more aerodynamic car is available that looks better and will give better performance.

Tom2

Tom-343 wrote
I see your point but how about this. If I converted my C5 to achieve the
experience and then upgraded it in a few years when the motor, controller
and battery advancements looked good. My C5 is a Lemans special edition so I
really want it to be my EV. If I buy another donor, then I get my experience
on the wrong vehicle assuming I would not damage my C5 converting it. If I
use the C5 as my initial donor to get actual C5 experience, knowing I will
remove it later, then only the EV equipment will be duplicated. I've driven
it for 5 years and want something new anyway but want it to be my EV
eventually. Its similar to your strategy but I just convert my C5 twice
rather than a cheap donor followed by my C5. Do you think the modifications
to mount the EV motor/controller and batteries will do permanent or
difficult to reverse changes? The engine compartment is rather large as is
the hatchback and fuel tank area.

thoughts if I can afford it? Downsides?

Tom

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Hymers" <dhymers@gmail.com>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 1:59 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?


> If it seems pre-mature to be starting on something, then I'd not start
> with
> the C5. Have you thought about converting something a little cheaper, with
> a
> DC system and seeing how much performance you can squeeze from components
> readily available. It would end up being much more inexpensive and may
> yield
> some valuable time to experiment putting you in a better position to ride
> the EV performance wave when it picks up speed.
> Congrats on the 13kw PV system btw.
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20091005/8c2abb3c/attachment.html
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>


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Re: High performance EV conversion and timing?

pgroveTom
In reply to this post by Brian Pikkula
Cool car but I really want to add the EV to my PV system so I'm off fossil
fuels on onto sunlight and I love my C5 and if I could get it to perform
something like the Tesla I drove, that is my desire.

I'm just starting my due diligence on whether anything about my C5 like
weight, active handling etc.. is a show stopper. Starting at 3100 lbs and
removing the engine at 450 lbs, full gas tank and transmission plus misc
should get me down to maybe 2300 lbs. Then I have to add back batteries and
drive system. I'm hoping to find someone who has actually done it and
confronted the hidden issues.

Tom


----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Pikkula" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?


> If you are concerned about weight and still want a Corvette feel, you
> may want to check out a Factory 5 GTM Supercar.
> http://www.factoryfive.com/gtmhome.html
>
> You combine their kit ($20k) with components form a C5 and a Porsche
> rear end.  Total ICE weight is 2200 lbs.
>
> For about $55k, you could have a Tesla beater.
>
> Brian
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 8:35 PM, Tom <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Thanks for all the ideas.
>>
>> I have read over and over that the A123 batteries you mention appear to
>> be
>> quite good. Some of the latest items like this are being swallowed up by
>> auto manufacturers . The list of partners they have and their IPO plus
>> government incentives usually makes it hard for individuals to get unless
>> connected. Thanks for the suggestions. I'll look into both the propulsion
>> systems.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Morgan LaMoore" <[hidden email]>
>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 5:49 PM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?
>>
>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 6:46 PM, Tom <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> I have a $100K budget. How will that do?
>>>>
>>>> Tom
>>>
>>> Next is the drive system. I recommend staying away from RPM ranges
>>> much higher than what's used in powerful gas engines. Sure, the specs
>>> on that 10k RPM motor may be great, but what good is it if you can't
>>> reliably translate that power to the wheels?
>>>
>>> That said, you could use a 10k RPM motor and just cap it at 7k RPMs;
>>> the power band is wide enough that it could still perform quite well.
>>>
>>> With your budget, whether to use a gearbox is a matter of personal
>>> preference. Do you enjoy driving a manual? Or would you prefer to be
>>> in the same gear from 0 to top speed, with plenty of torque no matter
>>> what? Your power band will be wide enough that you won't have to shift
>>> much even if you do have a transmission. Either way, to handle the
>>> torque, just look at what transmissions and differentials drag racers
>>> are using.
>>>
>>> I think AC and DC are both viable for this project. Here's how I'd do
>>> it with DC:
>>>
>>> Use a Z2k-EHV controller with 2 Warp 9" motors mechanically coupled
>>> together. The basic parts should cost about $8000. For an example of a
>>> current vehicle using this setup, see this dyno graph:
>>>
>>> http://www.neon-john.com/EV/Crazyhorse_Pinto_HP_Torque_06AUG08.pdf
>>>
>>> I believe the torque ramping up at the beginning is because the
>>> throttle response wasn't fast enough to put out full torque before the
>>> engine got over 1000 RPMs; it should be capable of giving over 1250
>>> ft-lbs all the way down to 0 RPMs.
>>>
>>> The dip at 2800 RPMs is the controller electrically shifting the
>>> motors from series to parallel.
>>>
>>> Also, note that for most of the curve, he's limited by the power of
>>> his batteries, which can "only" give a little over 300HP. Your A123
>>> pack should be significantly more powerful than that.
>>>
>>> However, he's drag racing this vehicle, so he's pushing it to a peak
>>> performance far beyond its continuous rating. There's some things you
>>> should do to make your vehicle reliable:
>>>
>>> You should probably use lower peak motor current, meaning lower peak
>>> torque. This setup would likely still have much more torque than an AC
>>> setup, though.
>>>
>>> You should blow air through the motors with a powerful, high-flow-rate
>>> blower. I recommend keeping it on all the time to keep temperatures
>>> down.
>>>
>>> You should put a thermocouple on/in the brushes (out of the airflow)
>>> so you can monitor temperature. If temperatures get too high, ease up
>>> on the accelerator a bit.
>>>
>>> If you wanted longer sprints near peak power (for racing, I can't
>>> think of any other reason), you could move up to dual Warp 11"s.
>>>
>>> I have no idea whether the AC motor and controller you mentioned are
>>> available, but take a look at www.acpropulsion.com and their drive
>>> system. It's the same peak power (200kW, 268HP peak). As of a few
>>> years ago, they sold their previous generation drive system for about
>>> $25,000; there's a decent chance their current generation is available
>>> if you contact them. The Tesla team started with their previous
>>> generation motor and controller and diverged from there.
>>>
>>> Here's some pros and cons of currently available high-performance AC
>>> and DC systems:
>>>
>>> The DC system will have much more torque, more power, and cost much
>>> less. There's also significantly more expertise available on this list
>>> to help you with it.
>>>
>>> The AC system will weigh less (176 lbs vs. 342 lbs), have slightly
>>> higher efficiency, better power at high RPMs, and be capable of
>>> regenerative braking.
>>>
>>> In a direct drive setup, I recommend the DC system. (With AC, you
>>> couldn't get high enough gear reduction, so you'd likely have less
>>> torque than a Tesla with more weight.) With a transmission, either one
>>> could work quite well.
>>>
>>> With a DC setup, the battery, motors, and controller should cost under
>>> $50k, leaving you with more than enough money for labor and the many
>>> miscellaneous costs that will pop up.
>>>
>>> Good luck with this project.
>>>
>>> -Morgan LaMoore
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
>>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>>> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
>>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
>> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
>> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Brian in TX
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/960
> http://www.evdub.blogspot.com/
> It may seem like I am doing nothing, but on a cellular level I'm
> really quite busy.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>


_______________________________________________
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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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Re: High performance EV conversion and timing?

Lee Hart
Tom wrote:

> Cool car but I really want to add the EV to my PV system so I'm off fossil
> fuels on onto sunlight and I love my C5 and if I could get it to perform
> something like the Tesla I drove, that is my desire.
>
> I'm just starting my due diligence on whether anything about my C5 like
> weight, active handling etc.. is a show stopper. Starting at 3100 lbs and
> removing the engine at 450 lbs, full gas tank and transmission plus misc
> should get me down to maybe 2300 lbs. Then I have to add back batteries and
> drive system. I'm hoping to find someone who has actually done it and
> confronted the hidden issues.

I helped Michael Shoop convert his 1987 Corvette to electric. You can
see the results at http://www.mneaa.com/volt-vette.htm

His car came with an automatic transmission, so he opted to eliminate
the transmission and use a single TransWarP 11" motor, mounted where the
transmission used to be. This necessitated a new drive shaft, and a new
differential with 4.88:1 gears (as the original differential wasn't
available with a ratio anywhere near this high).

The controller is a Zilla Z2K-LV, running with a 156v pack (thirteen 12v
AGM batteries). The batteries are presently the weakest link; they limit
the peak current and range. They were chosen as "training wheels", to
learn on and use while the car was being finished.

The car is really quite nice to drive. Even with the controller turned
down to 500a max battery current (to avoid murdering the poor
batteries), it accelerates quite well.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Re: High performance EV conversion and timing?

Morgan LaMoore
In reply to this post by pgroveTom
On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 8:35 PM, Tom <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks for all the ideas.
>
> I have read over and over that the A123 batteries you mention appear to be
> quite good. Some of the latest items like this are being swallowed up by
> auto manufacturers . The list of partners they have and their IPO plus
> government incentives usually makes it hard for individuals to get unless
> connected. Thanks for the suggestions. I'll look into both the propulsion
> systems.
>
> Tom

Quite right; it's possible to get A123 batteries, but only a few
people have managed to get them, while I know of several who have
expressed interest and been turned away.

That's why I recommended talking to James Morrison. EV Components has
already purchased bulk quantities of some other Lithium batteries, and
he's currently looking at what it would take to purchase A123 cells in
bulk and whether it would be worthwhile.

If you tell him how many cells you're interested in, that could help
him make his decision.

-Morgan LaMoore

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Re: High performance EV conversion and timing?

Morgan LaMoore
Note that I'm not affiliated with EV Components in any way; I'm saying
this based on his post to the EVDL on September 20.

-Morgan LaMoore

On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 10:55 PM, Morgan LaMoore <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Quite right; it's possible to get A123 batteries, but only a few
> people have managed to get them, while I know of several who have
> expressed interest and been turned away.
>
> That's why I recommended talking to James Morrison. EV Components has
> already purchased bulk quantities of some other Lithium batteries, and
> he's currently looking at what it would take to purchase A123 cells in
> bulk and whether it would be worthwhile.
>
> If you tell him how many cells you're interested in, that could help
> him make his decision.
>
> -Morgan LaMoore
>

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Re: High performance EV conversion and timing?

pgroveTom
In reply to this post by Lee Hart
Thanks - Its not a C5 but it will be very helpful given he has it well
documented.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 7:52 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?


> Tom wrote:
>> Cool car but I really want to add the EV to my PV system so I'm off
>> fossil
>> fuels on onto sunlight and I love my C5 and if I could get it to perform
>> something like the Tesla I drove, that is my desire.
>>
>> I'm just starting my due diligence on whether anything about my C5 like
>> weight, active handling etc.. is a show stopper. Starting at 3100 lbs and
>> removing the engine at 450 lbs, full gas tank and transmission plus misc
>> should get me down to maybe 2300 lbs. Then I have to add back batteries
>> and
>> drive system. I'm hoping to find someone who has actually done it and
>> confronted the hidden issues.
>
> I helped Michael Shoop convert his 1987 Corvette to electric. You can
> see the results at http://www.mneaa.com/volt-vette.htm
>
> His car came with an automatic transmission, so he opted to eliminate
> the transmission and use a single TransWarP 11" motor, mounted where the
> transmission used to be. This necessitated a new drive shaft, and a new
> differential with 4.88:1 gears (as the original differential wasn't
> available with a ratio anywhere near this high).
>
> The controller is a Zilla Z2K-LV, running with a 156v pack (thirteen 12v
> AGM batteries). The batteries are presently the weakest link; they limit
> the peak current and range. They were chosen as "training wheels", to
> learn on and use while the car was being finished.
>
> The car is really quite nice to drive. Even with the controller turned
> down to 500a max battery current (to avoid murdering the poor
> batteries), it accelerates quite well.
>
> --
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>


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Re: High performance EV conversion and timing?

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by Morgan LaMoore
Morgan LaMoore wrote:
Tom <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I have read over and over that the A123 batteries you mention appear to be
>> quite good.

> Quite right; it's possible to get A123 batteries, but only a few
> people have managed to get them, while I know of several who have
> expressed interest and been turned away. That's why I recommended
> talking to James Morrison...

There's another way to get A123 cells: Buy DeWalt 36v batteries for
their portable tools. Each one has 10 A123 cells plus a battery
management system, tested, neatly packaged, and with a warranty.

However, the current is limited by an internal fuse to 20 amps or less.
This might be acceptable if you have enough of them so the current per
pack is under this. Otherwise, you would have to take them apart and
bring out your own wires to bypass the internal fuse.

However... while the idea of a $100,000 Corvette EV is tremendously
exciting, it is also a very risky project, especially for a first-time
EV conversion. You might want to consider a less ambitious project as a
first try.
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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