How to spot a hoax or someone's trying to make money.

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How to spot a hoax or someone's trying to make money.

Lawrence Rhodes
Below is what sounds like the answer to our prayers.  However it may be a
hoax or a lie designed to filtch investors.  This kind of free or amazing
energy source comes up every once in a while on this list so the below
article is a textbook example of what I call feeding the pigeons.  We all
are the pigeons.  One tip off is time and money will be needed to prove the
process.  The other is the question of weather the radio frequency power
input is offset by the power output of the flame of (chuckle) burning salt
water.  If you see something like this below turn on your bs detector.  No
offense to Remy or the ET list.  He is just passing along information from
many sources.  He lets you make the decision as to the truth of the
articles.  In the past EV list members have ferreted out lies.  So keep your
money in your pocket and make sure devices or other methods of fuel are
proven before investing.  Lawrence Rhodes....

Salt water as fuel? Erie man hopes so
    Posted by: "Remy Chevalier" [hidden email] cleannewworld
    Date: Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:20 am ((PDT))

Salt water as fuel? Erie man hopes so
Sunday, September 09, 2007
By David Templeton, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07252/815920-85.stm

For obvious reasons, scientists long have thought that salt water couldn't
be burned.

So when an Erie man announced he'd ignited salt water with the
radio-frequency generator he'd invented, some thought it a was a hoax.

John Kanzius, a Washington County native, tried to desalinate seawater with
a generator he developed to treat cancer, and it caused a flash in the test
tube.

Within days, he had the salt water in the test tube burning like a candle,
as long as it was exposed to radio frequencies.

His discovery has spawned scientific interest in using the world's most
abundant substance as clean fuel, among other uses.

Rustum Roy, a Penn State University chemist, held a demonstration last week
at the university's Materials Research Laboratory in State College, to
confirm what he'd witnessed weeks before in an Erie lab.

"It's true, it works," Dr. Roy said. "Everyone told me, 'Rustum, don't be
fooled. He put electrodes in there.' "

But there are no electrodes and no gimmicks, he said.

Dr. Roy said the salt water isn't burning per se, despite appearances. The
radio frequency actually weakens bonds holding together the constituents of
salt water -- sodium chloride, hydrogen and oxygen -- and releases the
hydrogen, which, once ignited, burns continuously when exposed to the RF
energy field. Mr. Kanzius said an independent source measured the flame's
temperature, which exceeds 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit, reflecting an enormous
energy output.

As such, Dr. Roy, a founding member of the Materials Research Laboratory and
expert in water structure, said Mr. Kanzius' discovery represents "the most
remarkable in water science in 100 years."

But researching its potential will take time and money, he said. One
immediate question is energy efficiency: The energy the RF generator uses
vs. the energy output from burning hydrogen.

Dr. Roy said he's scheduled to meet tomorrow with U.S. Department of Energy
and Department of Defense officials in Washington to discuss the discovery
and seek research funding.

Mr. Kanzius said he powered a Stirling, or hot air, engine with salt water.
But whether the system can power a car or be used as an efficient fuel will
depend on research results.

"We will get our ideas together and check this out and see where it leads,"
Dr. Roy said. "The potential is huge.

"In the life sciences, the role of water is infinite, and this guy is doing
something new in using the most important and most abundant material on the
face of the earth."
Mr. Kanzius' discovery was an accident.

He developed the RF generator as a novel cancer treatment. His research in
targeting cancer cells with metallic nanoparticles then destroying them with
radio-frequency is proceeding at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center
and at the University of Texas' MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston.

Manuscripts updating the cancer research are in preparation for publication
in coming months, Mr. Kanzius said.

While Mr. Kanzius was demonstrating how his generator heated nanoparticles,
someone noted condensation inside the test tube and suggested he try using
his equipment to desalinate water.

So, Mr. Kanzius said, he put sea water in a test tube, then trained his
machine on it, producing an unexpected spark. In time he and laboratory
owners struck a match and ignited the water, which continued burning as long
as it remained in the radio-frequency field.

During several trials, heat from burning hydrogen grew hot enough to melt
the test tube, he said. Dr. Roy's tests on the machine last week provided
further evidence that the process is releasing and burning hydrogen from the
water. Tests on different water solutions and concentrations produced
various temperatures and flame colors.

"This is the most abundant element in the world. It is everywhere," Dr. Roy
said of salt water. "Seeing it burn gives me chills."

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Re: How to spot a hoax or someone's trying to make money.

Morgan LaMoore
This sort of pseudo-science isn't nearly as bad as stuff like EEstor.

This one is obviously fake; if you have a chemical reaction releasing
energy, the reactants must have a lower bonding energy than the
products. Salt and water have very high bonding energy; it takes a lot
of energy to break the bonds, and to get energy, you need to put them
into an even more stable state.

Another big red flag is that the guy said he burned salt water with
the same machine he made to cure cancer. Considering that blood
contains lots of salt and water, one of his machine's two purposes
(curing cancer and burning saltwater) doesn't work. I suspect it's
neither.

With something like EEstor, it's a lot harder. There's nothing
theoretically impossible about what they claim; it's just much, much
better than what we currently can manufacture. That's much more likely
to trick people into giving them money.

-Morgan LaMoore

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Re: How to spot a hoax or someone's trying to make money.

Morgan LaMoore
I mean, yes, they weaken the bonds of water with the RF, but when you
burn the hydrogen, what do you get? More water. If this really
produced energy, it would violate the first and second laws of
Thermodynamics. You start with water and electrical energy and end up
with water and even more electrical energy? Impossible.

That said, it may be a good method to generate hydrogen for storage in
fuel cells. It may or may not be more efficient than electrolysis.

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Re: How to spot a hoax or someone's trying to make money.

Cor van de Water
In reply to this post by Lawrence Rhodes
One of the well-known side-effect of high power radio
waves is that they can cause (low pressure) gasses
to light up.
For example it is easy to light up a Fluorescent Tube
in front of a radio antenna.
That does not mean that there is a lot of energy, just
that the current caused by the radio waves has enough
energy for the (low density) of gas atoms to change
state (get excited) and fall back, causing the light
effect.
I bet that when you try to measure the temp indicated
by the light effect, you will find that the *equivalent*
temp of a material to emit that light will be a very
high temp, thousands of degrees. It does not mean that
the ions actually have that temp, they only emit light
that has the same color as a surface of that temp.
Same as your computer monitor, if it has a CRT then you
can select which color it has by changing the temp
setting. It does not mean that it gets 5700 degrees or
so, it only indicates that a surface with that temp
emits that percentage of blue and yellow light.
Normally this light is caused by the current through
the lamp itself when connected to the grid.
But an external RF field can induce the same type of
current, so the lamp lights up all the same.
It usually has poor efficiency, to light up a lamp this
way you will need a few Watts of power in the lamp, but
due to the small part of the field present in the lamp
it often takes a 100 Watt radio to generate enough field
and the radio will consume between 300 to 500 Watt to
create this output.
I know simpler ways to waste energy....

BTW, I agree on the BS detector, but in this case I have
the idea that people do not even understand what they are
dealing with, so it is even a step earlier.

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [hidden email]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225    VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675    eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 9:21 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List; [hidden email]
Subject: [EVDL] How to spot a hoax or someone's trying to make money.

Below is what sounds like the answer to our prayers.  However it may be a hoax or a lie designed to filtch investors.  This kind of free or amazing energy source comes up every once in a while on this list so the below article is a textbook example of what I call feeding the pigeons.  We all are the pigeons.  One tip off is time and money will be needed to prove the process.  The other is the question of weather the radio frequency power input is offset by the power output of the flame of (chuckle) burning salt water.  If you see something like this below turn on your bs detector.  No offense to Remy or the ET list.  He is just passing along information from many sources.  He lets you make the decision as to the truth of the articles.  In the past EV list members have ferreted out lies.  So keep your money in your pocket and make sure devices or other methods of fuel are proven before investing.  Lawrence Rhodes....

Salt water as fuel? Erie man hopes so
    Posted by: "Remy Chevalier" [hidden email] cleannewworld
    Date: Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:20 am ((PDT))

Salt water as fuel? Erie man hopes so
Sunday, September 09, 2007
By David Templeton, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07252/815920-85.stm

For obvious reasons, scientists long have thought that salt water couldn't be burned.

So when an Erie man announced he'd ignited salt water with the radio-frequency generator he'd invented, some thought it a was a hoax.

John Kanzius, a Washington County native, tried to desalinate seawater with a generator he developed to treat cancer, and it caused a flash in the test tube.

Within days, he had the salt water in the test tube burning like a candle, as long as it was exposed to radio frequencies.

His discovery has spawned scientific interest in using the world's most abundant substance as clean fuel, among other uses.

Rustum Roy, a Penn State University chemist, held a demonstration last week at the university's Materials Research Laboratory in State College, to confirm what he'd witnessed weeks before in an Erie lab.

"It's true, it works," Dr. Roy said. "Everyone told me, 'Rustum, don't be fooled. He put electrodes in there.' "

But there are no electrodes and no gimmicks, he said.

Dr. Roy said the salt water isn't burning per se, despite appearances. The radio frequency actually weakens bonds holding together the constituents of salt water -- sodium chloride, hydrogen and oxygen -- and releases the hydrogen, which, once ignited, burns continuously when exposed to the RF energy field. Mr. Kanzius said an independent source measured the flame's temperature, which exceeds 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit, reflecting an enormous energy output.

As such, Dr. Roy, a founding member of the Materials Research Laboratory and expert in water structure, said Mr. Kanzius' discovery represents "the most remarkable in water science in 100 years."

But researching its potential will take time and money, he said. One immediate question is energy efficiency: The energy the RF generator uses vs. the energy output from burning hydrogen.

Dr. Roy said he's scheduled to meet tomorrow with U.S. Department of Energy and Department of Defense officials in Washington to discuss the discovery and seek research funding.

Mr. Kanzius said he powered a Stirling, or hot air, engine with salt water.
But whether the system can power a car or be used as an efficient fuel will depend on research results.

"We will get our ideas together and check this out and see where it leads,"
Dr. Roy said. "The potential is huge.

"In the life sciences, the role of water is infinite, and this guy is doing something new in using the most important and most abundant material on the face of the earth."
Mr. Kanzius' discovery was an accident.

He developed the RF generator as a novel cancer treatment. His research in targeting cancer cells with metallic nanoparticles then destroying them with radio-frequency is proceeding at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center and at the University of Texas' MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston.

Manuscripts updating the cancer research are in preparation for publication in coming months, Mr. Kanzius said.

While Mr. Kanzius was demonstrating how his generator heated nanoparticles, someone noted condensation inside the test tube and suggested he try using his equipment to desalinate water.

So, Mr. Kanzius said, he put sea water in a test tube, then trained his machine on it, producing an unexpected spark. In time he and laboratory owners struck a match and ignited the water, which continued burning as long as it remained in the radio-frequency field.

During several trials, heat from burning hydrogen grew hot enough to melt the test tube, he said. Dr. Roy's tests on the machine last week provided further evidence that the process is releasing and burning hydrogen from the water. Tests on different water solutions and concentrations produced various temperatures and flame colors.

"This is the most abundant element in the world. It is everywhere," Dr. Roy said of salt water. "Seeing it burn gives me chills."

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Re: How to spot a hoax or someone's trying to make money.

Lee Hart
Cor van de Water wrote:
> One of the well-known side-effect of high power radio
> waves is that they can cause (low pressure) gasses
> to light up.
> For example it is easy to light up a Fluorescent Tube
> in front of a radio antenna.

An even easier example. If you have a neon lamp in something (a little
pilot light that glows orange), just hold it near the flyback
transformer of a CRT monitor. It will glow, with no wires connected!

And if you aim a non-contact temperature meter at it, it will read some
absurdly high temperature, even though the lamp is stone cold and you
can feel no heat at all in your fingers. The meter is using the color of
the light to estimate its temperature by color, as if it were a piece of
metal heated to orange-red heat.

It's a wonderful trick!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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Winter & EVs

h.godavari
In reply to this post by Lawrence Rhodes
I am seriously considering buying a turnkey E-beetle from Utah. Since I live in
the great white north (about 500 miles north of Lee:-)), I am very interested in
keeping myself & the batteries warm and functional. I sent an email to the Uth
group and received no reply.

My question is how do you keep yourself warm and still get 30 to 40 mile range
per day. Or does on put the ev in the garage until the warm weather arrives?

regards
harsha godavari



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Re: Winter & EVs

Bob Bath

--- [hidden email] wrote:

> I am seriously considering buying a turnkey E-beetle
> from Utah. Since I live in
> the great white north (about 500 miles north of
> Lee:-)), I am very interested in
> keeping myself & the batteries warm and functional.
> I sent an email to the Uth
> group and received no reply.
>
> My question is how do you keep yourself warm
- Ceramic heater.  One is passable for defrosting, and
marginal heating; two units are best.  The will soak
up about 27 amps at 144V each.

and
> still get 30 to 40 mile range
> per day. Or does on put the ev in the garage until
> the warm weather arrives?
>
- Start with a high voltage & light car; eg. 144 or
better; Honda Civic?
- add battery heaters, and plug them to the wall
outlet in before you start your trip, or charge right
before the trip.  Charging the batteries heats them a
bit.
- keep the car in an insulated garage in the first
place (my choice).
- increase the charger voltage (per manufacturer
specs) to make sure you always start with a full
charge.
- light foot on the accelerator!

By the way, FWIW, I've noticed that cold air from the
outside via window and a jacket keeps the windows from
getting fogged more than recirculating the warm air,
regardless of whether the ceramic heater is on.
Hope that helps!

Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic?  For $20 DVD you can purchase footage of my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at: www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html          ____
                     __/__|__\ __
  =D-------/    -  -         \
                     'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?


       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469

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Re: Winter & EVs

Roland Wiench
In reply to this post by h.godavari
Hello Harsha,

I live in Montana, where it can get down to 35 below which my EV is design
for a 120 degree temperature difference.  It takes a lot of equipment, and I
do not know if the E-beetle has the room or if it is possible to install a
heating system that can work with a on-board DC or AC system and a off board
pre heat heating system.  My EV has both types of heating systems.

The first thing I do, is to insulated the garage walls to 64 R factor, the
ceiling to 120 R factor, and use a 19 R factor garage door with triple
seals.  There is two small windows that face the sunny side, which is 5
layers of material which includes 2 panes of outside glass, 1 pane of inside
glass with a 6 inch air space, a horizontal insulated blind, and a vertical
blind, which is about 20 R factor and when its sunny, I have a heat gain.

On the ceiling, I have 24 large diameter 100 watt lamps even space through
out the ceiling which are control by six dimmer switches, a lighting
contactor and a room line voltage thermostat.  There is a ceiling fan the is
also control by a built in thermostat if the ceiling temperature gets above
75 degrees.

On board the EV, I use three 120 vac heaters.  These are under dash
convention air type with fans.  The driver side is a 640 watt type, the
passenger side is a 840 watt and then under the front hood, there is a 1000
watt hot water heater with pump that is normally design for a semi truck.
This heats the water that comes from a holding tank made out of a 3 inch
diameter copper pipe that I had a radiator shop solder on a radiator cap.
This tank also acts as a expansion tank.

The water goes from the the heater, to a pump and to the existing heater
core and back to the tank and then to the heater.  I found, that I only need
50 degree water temperature to keep my wind shield clear, because I block
the cold air ductwork that tempers the hot air from a engine, that could
reach over 200 degrees.

I use to have a Beetle at one time, which uses the hot air which goes
through a heat exchanger at the engine.  If this is the case with your
Beetle, than you could install a underdash heater and tap into the heater
ductwork.

You could get by with one heater for direct convention in the driver
compartment and one for putting heat in the duct to keep your windshield
clear.

Anytime the outside temperature is below 30 and way down to -30, I preheat
the EV about 15 minutes before I go.  I use a triple pole triple pole
switch, (three position  ON - Off - ON) 30 amp rated to selected between the
on-board heater power, or out-board heater power which is tap off the 50 amp
main power plug with three 20 amp circuit breakers.

The garage with its high R-factor, the EV is mostly at a temperature of 70
degrees.  The heaters preheat the EV for only about 15 minutes which will
raise the inside temperature to 80 degrees or more.  When it was about 30
below, I could drive to my first destination, let it park for about an hour
and it may still be about 50 degrees inside.

Also the entire inside of the EV is insulation with 2 inches of blue foam
and cover with a marine carpet.  The battery boxes are cover with 2 inches
of foam, a 4 inch air space, another layer of 2 inch foam with each layer of
foam cover with a marine carpet.

The insulated battery box is under a gold tint lean glass hatch back that
allows passive heat from the sun.  At 30 below, during a sunny day, I had a
battery temperature of about 80 degrees.

The on board power to run these 120 vac 60 hz heaters, 120 vac pumps and
fans come from two sources.  One from a solid state DC-AC inverter rated at
5 kw that comes off the main battery pack. Made by the Dynamote Co.  The
other one is a alternator-inverter unit which can both provide 13.5 to 16
volts at 145 amps and at the same time provide 7 kw at 110 VDC which is then
inverted to 6 kw at 120 VDC which is also made by the Dynamote Co.

These later alternator-inverter unit, will not fit into a Beetle.  I could
not use the inverter for this latter unit, because I did not have the room.

The advantage I have in using the alternator-inverter unit even its only 7
kw at 110 volts, It provides be with a braking regenerative when going on
icy roads.

You may even be able to convert a 120 vac 60 hz heater units by using the DC
power from the batteries just to the heater elements, but you will have to
change the fan motors to a 12 vdc source.

Roland






----- Original Message -----
From: <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 2:56 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Winter & EVs


> I am seriously considering buying a turnkey E-beetle from Utah. Since I
> live in
> the great white north (about 500 miles north of Lee:-)), I am very
> interested in
> keeping myself & the batteries warm and functional. I sent an email to the
> Uth
> group and received no reply.
>
> My question is how do you keep yourself warm and still get 30 to 40 mile
> range
> per day. Or does on put the ev in the garage until the warm weather
> arrives?
>
> regards
> harsha godavari
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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killacycle crash

michael wendell
http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/33853/113/

Apparently Killacycle hooked up during a burnout demonstration and shot bill
dube into a parked minivan at the WIRED NextFest. Bill was taken to the
hospital but seems to have been okay, the video shows him talking before the
paramedics took him away, and they said he could move his fingers and toes.
Let's all wish him a speedy recovery if he's not recovered already!

Hit the link for the story and (very scary!) video.

m.


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Re: Winter & EVs

Alan Brinkman
In reply to this post by Roland Wiench
Roland,

Have you ever watched that program on TV, I think it is called "Ice
Road", where the truckers move supplies across an ice road in Alaska in
the winter to get supplies to the diamond mines there.  I am pretty sure
you could teach them a thing or two (or 100).  Being from the desert, I
traveled to where there was ice, snow, and +17 degree F temps and was
amazed at the difficulty one could get into without a lot of effort.

To keep on topic, for a tiny EV to keep the batteries somewhat insulated
in more moderate weather, could you use a very large ice chest with a
fan for ventilation?  It would be flammable, if plastic.  Maybe
expensive if the older aluminum or tin cased type?

Alan

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Roland Wiench
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 5:32 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Winter & EVs

Hello Harsha,

I live in Montana, where it can get down to 35 below which my EV is
design
for a 120 degree temperature difference.  It takes a lot of equipment,
and I
do not know if the E-beetle has the room or if it is possible to install
a
heating system that can work with a on-board DC or AC system and a off
board
pre heat heating system.  My EV has both types of heating systems.

The first thing I do, is to insulated the garage walls to 64 R factor,
the
ceiling to 120 R factor, and use a 19 R factor garage door with triple
seals.  There is two small windows that face the sunny side, which is 5
layers of material which includes 2 panes of outside glass, 1 pane of
inside
glass with a 6 inch air space, a horizontal insulated blind, and a
vertical
blind, which is about 20 R factor and when its sunny, I have a heat
gain.

On the ceiling, I have 24 large diameter 100 watt lamps even space
through
out the ceiling which are control by six dimmer switches, a lighting
contactor and a room line voltage thermostat.  There is a ceiling fan
the is
also control by a built in thermostat if the ceiling temperature gets
above
75 degrees.

On board the EV, I use three 120 vac heaters.  These are under dash
convention air type with fans.  The driver side is a 640 watt type, the
passenger side is a 840 watt and then under the front hood, there is a
1000
watt hot water heater with pump that is normally design for a semi
truck.
This heats the water that comes from a holding tank made out of a 3 inch

diameter copper pipe that I had a radiator shop solder on a radiator
cap.
This tank also acts as a expansion tank.

The water goes from the the heater, to a pump and to the existing heater

core and back to the tank and then to the heater.  I found, that I only
need
50 degree water temperature to keep my wind shield clear, because I
block
the cold air ductwork that tempers the hot air from a engine, that could

reach over 200 degrees.

I use to have a Beetle at one time, which uses the hot air which goes
through a heat exchanger at the engine.  If this is the case with your
Beetle, than you could install a underdash heater and tap into the
heater
ductwork.

You could get by with one heater for direct convention in the driver
compartment and one for putting heat in the duct to keep your windshield

clear.

Anytime the outside temperature is below 30 and way down to -30, I
preheat
the EV about 15 minutes before I go.  I use a triple pole triple pole
switch, (three position  ON - Off - ON) 30 amp rated to selected between
the
on-board heater power, or out-board heater power which is tap off the 50
amp
main power plug with three 20 amp circuit breakers.

The garage with its high R-factor, the EV is mostly at a temperature of
70
degrees.  The heaters preheat the EV for only about 15 minutes which
will
raise the inside temperature to 80 degrees or more.  When it was about
30
below, I could drive to my first destination, let it park for about an
hour
and it may still be about 50 degrees inside.

Also the entire inside of the EV is insulation with 2 inches of blue
foam
and cover with a marine carpet.  The battery boxes are cover with 2
inches
of foam, a 4 inch air space, another layer of 2 inch foam with each
layer of
foam cover with a marine carpet.

The insulated battery box is under a gold tint lean glass hatch back
that
allows passive heat from the sun.  At 30 below, during a sunny day, I
had a
battery temperature of about 80 degrees.

The on board power to run these 120 vac 60 hz heaters, 120 vac pumps and

fans come from two sources.  One from a solid state DC-AC inverter rated
at
5 kw that comes off the main battery pack. Made by the Dynamote Co.  The

other one is a alternator-inverter unit which can both provide 13.5 to
16
volts at 145 amps and at the same time provide 7 kw at 110 VDC which is
then
inverted to 6 kw at 120 VDC which is also made by the Dynamote Co.

These later alternator-inverter unit, will not fit into a Beetle.  I
could
not use the inverter for this latter unit, because I did not have the
room.

The advantage I have in using the alternator-inverter unit even its only
7
kw at 110 volts, It provides be with a braking regenerative when going
on
icy roads.

You may even be able to convert a 120 vac 60 hz heater units by using
the DC
power from the batteries just to the heater elements, but you will have
to
change the fan motors to a 12 vdc source.

Roland






----- Original Message -----
From: <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 2:56 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Winter & EVs


> I am seriously considering buying a turnkey E-beetle from Utah. Since
I
> live in
> the great white north (about 500 miles north of Lee:-)), I am very
> interested in
> keeping myself & the batteries warm and functional. I sent an email to
the
> Uth
> group and received no reply.
>
> My question is how do you keep yourself warm and still get 30 to 40
mile

> range
> per day. Or does on put the ev in the garage until the warm weather
> arrives?
>
> regards
> harsha godavari
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Re: Winter & EVs

cowtown
In reply to this post by h.godavari
> I am seriously considering buying a turnkey E-beetle from Utah.  
> Since I live in
> the great white north (about 500 miles north of Lee:-)), I am very  
> interested in
> keeping myself & the batteries warm and functional. I sent an email  
> to the Uth
> group and received no reply.
>
> My question is how do you keep yourself warm and still get 30 to 40  
> mile range
> per day. Or does on put the ev in the garage until the warm weather arrives?

Randy at Canadian Electric Vehicles (www.canev.com) does frigid temp  
conversion all the time - maybe he can give you some historical  
perspective.


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Re: killacycle crash

Hi-Torque Electric
In reply to this post by michael wendell
Hello all

Wow, what bummer news to read this evening.  Wanted to
send my well wishes to Bill and his family and crew.

Jim Husted



       
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Re: killacycle crash

Go@GoWheel.com
In reply to this post by michael wendell
Hi all friends of Bill Dube',
I was on the way to meet with Bill when I was informed
that he had just crashed.  Everyone seems to think he
is OK, but he should have been wearing his helmet.  I
did not see him as he was already on the way to the
hospital (just to be sure - they all said).
I inspected the Killacycle, took pics, turned off the
electrics, and shrink-wrapped the bike.  It's behind
the South Hall and scheduled to be moved inside
tonight.
Frommy experience the crash 'HIT' wasn't too bad.
That just leaves the landing that could really hurt!
They say he went over the handlebars and the car, but
I saw nothing.  Just hearsay from the peanut gallery.
I'm posting the burnout mark pics, bike pics,and
storage info at:
http://www.gowheel.com/Killacycle/oops/
The pics have been left large to show detail when you
scroll around.
Jay
--------------------------------------
michael wendell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/33853/113/
> Apparently Killacycle hooked up during a burnout
> demonstration and shot bill
> dube into a parked minivan at the WIRED NextFest.
> Bill was taken to the
> hospital but seems to have been okay, the video
> shows him talking before the
> paramedics took him away, and they said he could
> move his fingers and toes.
> Let's all wish him a speedy recovery if he's not
> recovered already!
> Hit the link for the story and (very scary!) video.
> m.



       
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Re: killacycle crash

Roy LeMeur
In reply to this post by michael wendell
All I can say is that my thoughts and prayers are going out to Bill and his
family and everyone involved with the Killacycle project.

Best wishes for a complete recovery.

Killacycle team members please keep the EV community updated as to Bill's
condition.


Roy LeMeur

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Re: killacycle crash

rodhower
In reply to this post by Go@GoWheel.com
The link says 'I'm forbidden', maybe that's what
Scotty should have said before Bill got on the bike.
Best wishes for Bill, hopefully he and his bike are
well.
Rod
P.S. Post a link that works please, thanks Jay

--- "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all friends of Bill Dube',
> I was on the way to meet with Bill when I was
> informed
> that he had just crashed.  Everyone seems to think
> he
> is OK, but he should have been wearing his helmet.
> I
> did not see him as he was already on the way to the
> hospital (just to be sure - they all said).
> I inspected the Killacycle, took pics, turned off
> the
> electrics, and shrink-wrapped the bike.  It's behind
> the South Hall and scheduled to be moved inside
> tonight.
> Frommy experience the crash 'HIT' wasn't too bad.
> That just leaves the landing that could really hurt!
> They say he went over the handlebars and the car,
> but
> I saw nothing.  Just hearsay from the peanut
> gallery.
> I'm posting the burnout mark pics, bike pics,and
> storage info at:
> http://www.gowheel.com/Killacycle/oops/
> The pics have been left large to show detail when
> you
> scroll around.
> Jay
> --------------------------------------
> michael wendell <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/33853/113/
> > Apparently Killacycle hooked up during a burnout
> > demonstration and shot bill
> > dube into a parked minivan at the WIRED NextFest.
> > Bill was taken to the
> > hospital but seems to have been okay, the video
> > shows him talking before the
> > paramedics took him away, and they said he could
> > move his fingers and toes.
> > Let's all wish him a speedy recovery if he's not
> > recovered already!
> > Hit the link for the story and (very scary!)
> video.
> > m.
>
>
>
>        
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet
> in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Re: killacycle crash

Roy LeMeur
In reply to this post by michael wendell
This link is a 403 "Access Forbidden"-
http://www.gowheel.com/Killacycle/oops/


~~~~~~


Roy LeMeur

_________________________________________________________________
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Re: killacycle crash

Go@GoWheel.com
In reply to this post by rodhower
We started uploading the second we got back from the
convention center, (at the same time I was emailing
the list).
Uploading is now done and the link works:
http://www.gowheel.com/Killacycle/oops/
Jay
--- Rod Hower <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The link says 'I'm forbidden', maybe that's what
> Scotty should have said before Bill got on the bike.
> Best wishes for Bill, hopefully he and his bike are
> well.
> Rod
> P.S. Post a link that works please, thanks Jay
>
> --- "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hi all friends of Bill Dube',
> > I was on the way to meet with Bill when I was
> > informed
> > that he had just crashed.  Everyone seems to think
> > he
> > is OK, but he should have been wearing his helmet.
>
> > I
> > did not see him as he was already on the way to
> the
> > hospital (just to be sure - they all said).
> > I inspected the Killacycle, took pics, turned off
> > the
> > electrics, and shrink-wrapped the bike.  It's
> behind
> > the South Hall and scheduled to be moved inside
> > tonight.
> > Frommy experience the crash 'HIT' wasn't too bad.
> > That just leaves the landing that could really
> hurt!
> > They say he went over the handlebars and the car,
> > but
> > I saw nothing.  Just hearsay from the peanut
> > gallery.
> > I'm posting the burnout mark pics, bike pics,and
> > storage info at:
> > http://www.gowheel.com/Killacycle/oops/
> > The pics have been left large to show detail when
> > you
> > scroll around.
> > Jay
> > --------------------------------------
> > michael wendell <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/33853/113/
> > > Apparently Killacycle hooked up during a burnout
> > > demonstration and shot bill
> > > dube into a parked minivan at the WIRED
> NextFest.
> > > Bill was taken to the
> > > hospital but seems to have been okay, the video
> > > shows him talking before the
> > > paramedics took him away, and they said he could
> > > move his fingers and toes.
> > > Let's all wish him a speedy recovery if he's not
> > > recovered already!
> > > Hit the link for the story and (very scary!)
> > video.
> > > m.
> >
> >
> >
> >        
> >
>
____________________________________________________________________________________

> > Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the
> Internet
> > in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.
> > http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



       
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Re: Winter & EVs

Roland Wiench
In reply to this post by Alan Brinkman
Hello Alan,

At the Cross Road Café, where all the truckers stop before they trek to
Alaska on the Ice Road for the winter, I talk to a lot of them about heating
and pre heating systems.  This I were I learn about the engine diesel
heaters that range from 1000 watts to 2500 watts at either 120 volts or 240
volts.  These unit are a long 2-foot long stainless tube that is about
3-inches in diameter, that have a built in pump and thermostat unit that I
use for my EV.

Most of these units have foam spray on the inside which is cover by snap on
foam back uphoustery.  A friend of mine who is about 85 years old, still
goes up north to drive this trek.

It is best to make the battery boxes out of 1/4 inch sheet fiberglass you
can get from a fiber glass company.  You can get fiber glass 90 degree
angles and cloth to assembly the corners and install a flange on top for a
cover to set on.  Put the smooth side towards the inside and glue on the
foam or spray on the foam on the out side.

Coat the fiber glass with the epoxy kits that are use for re-finishing sinks
and tubs, that you can get from hardware stores.

This summer we got up to 107 F in the shade and it read about 140 F or more
in the sun.  My battery temperature after setting about a hour out side in
this temperature was only 79 degrees after coming from a 70 degree garage
and going about 1 mile.

Roland.








----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Brinkman" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 6:59 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Winter & EVs


> Roland,
>
> Have you ever watched that program on TV, I think it is called "Ice
> Road", where the truckers move supplies across an ice road in Alaska in
> the winter to get supplies to the diamond mines there.  I am pretty sure
> you could teach them a thing or two (or 100).  Being from the desert, I
> traveled to where there was ice, snow, and +17 degree F temps and was
> amazed at the difficulty one could get into without a lot of effort.
>
> To keep on topic, for a tiny EV to keep the batteries somewhat insulated
> in more moderate weather, could you use a very large ice chest with a
> fan for ventilation?  It would be flammable, if plastic.  Maybe
> expensive if the older aluminum or tin cased type?
>
> Alan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Roland Wiench
> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 5:32 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Winter & EVs
>
> Hello Harsha,
>
> I live in Montana, where it can get down to 35 below which my EV is
> design
> for a 120 degree temperature difference.  It takes a lot of equipment,
> and I
> do not know if the E-beetle has the room or if it is possible to install
> a
> heating system that can work with a on-board DC or AC system and a off
> board
> pre heat heating system.  My EV has both types of heating systems.
>
> The first thing I do, is to insulated the garage walls to 64 R factor,
> the
> ceiling to 120 R factor, and use a 19 R factor garage door with triple
> seals.  There is two small windows that face the sunny side, which is 5
> layers of material which includes 2 panes of outside glass, 1 pane of
> inside
> glass with a 6 inch air space, a horizontal insulated blind, and a
> vertical
> blind, which is about 20 R factor and when its sunny, I have a heat
> gain.
>
> On the ceiling, I have 24 large diameter 100 watt lamps even space
> through
> out the ceiling which are control by six dimmer switches, a lighting
> contactor and a room line voltage thermostat.  There is a ceiling fan
> the is
> also control by a built in thermostat if the ceiling temperature gets
> above
> 75 degrees.
>
> On board the EV, I use three 120 vac heaters.  These are under dash
> convention air type with fans.  The driver side is a 640 watt type, the
> passenger side is a 840 watt and then under the front hood, there is a
> 1000
> watt hot water heater with pump that is normally design for a semi
> truck.
> This heats the water that comes from a holding tank made out of a 3 inch
>
> diameter copper pipe that I had a radiator shop solder on a radiator
> cap.
> This tank also acts as a expansion tank.
>
> The water goes from the the heater, to a pump and to the existing heater
>
> core and back to the tank and then to the heater.  I found, that I only
> need
> 50 degree water temperature to keep my wind shield clear, because I
> block
> the cold air ductwork that tempers the hot air from a engine, that could
>
> reach over 200 degrees.
>
> I use to have a Beetle at one time, which uses the hot air which goes
> through a heat exchanger at the engine.  If this is the case with your
> Beetle, than you could install a underdash heater and tap into the
> heater
> ductwork.
>
> You could get by with one heater for direct convention in the driver
> compartment and one for putting heat in the duct to keep your windshield
>
> clear.
>
> Anytime the outside temperature is below 30 and way down to -30, I
> preheat
> the EV about 15 minutes before I go.  I use a triple pole triple pole
> switch, (three position  ON - Off - ON) 30 amp rated to selected between
> the
> on-board heater power, or out-board heater power which is tap off the 50
> amp
> main power plug with three 20 amp circuit breakers.
>
> The garage with its high R-factor, the EV is mostly at a temperature of
> 70
> degrees.  The heaters preheat the EV for only about 15 minutes which
> will
> raise the inside temperature to 80 degrees or more.  When it was about
> 30
> below, I could drive to my first destination, let it park for about an
> hour
> and it may still be about 50 degrees inside.
>
> Also the entire inside of the EV is insulation with 2 inches of blue
> foam
> and cover with a marine carpet.  The battery boxes are cover with 2
> inches
> of foam, a 4 inch air space, another layer of 2 inch foam with each
> layer of
> foam cover with a marine carpet.
>
> The insulated battery box is under a gold tint lean glass hatch back
> that
> allows passive heat from the sun.  At 30 below, during a sunny day, I
> had a
> battery temperature of about 80 degrees.
>
> The on board power to run these 120 vac 60 hz heaters, 120 vac pumps and
>
> fans come from two sources.  One from a solid state DC-AC inverter rated
> at
> 5 kw that comes off the main battery pack. Made by the Dynamote Co.  The
>
> other one is a alternator-inverter unit which can both provide 13.5 to
> 16
> volts at 145 amps and at the same time provide 7 kw at 110 VDC which is
> then
> inverted to 6 kw at 120 VDC which is also made by the Dynamote Co.
>
> These later alternator-inverter unit, will not fit into a Beetle.  I
> could
> not use the inverter for this latter unit, because I did not have the
> room.
>
> The advantage I have in using the alternator-inverter unit even its only
> 7
> kw at 110 volts, It provides be with a braking regenerative when going
> on
> icy roads.
>
> You may even be able to convert a 120 vac 60 hz heater units by using
> the DC
> power from the batteries just to the heater elements, but you will have
> to
> change the fan motors to a 12 vdc source.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 2:56 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] Winter & EVs
>
>
> > I am seriously considering buying a turnkey E-beetle from Utah. Since
> I
> > live in
> > the great white north (about 500 miles north of Lee:-)), I am very
> > interested in
> > keeping myself & the batteries warm and functional. I sent an email to
> the
> > Uth
> > group and received no reply.
> >
> > My question is how do you keep yourself warm and still get 30 to 40
> mile
> > range
> > per day. Or does on put the ev in the garage until the warm weather
> > arrives?
> >
> > regards
> > harsha godavari
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Re: killacycle crash

storm connors
In reply to this post by Roy LeMeur
Here is another wish that Bill is OK. This link was across from the pictures
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07252/815920-85.stm about a guy using rf to
release hydrogen from seawater and burning it.


On 9/13/07, Roy LeMeur <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> This link is a 403 "Access Forbidden"-
> http://www.gowheel.com/Killacycle/oops/
>
>
> ~~~~~~
>
>
> Roy LeMeur
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Share your special parenting moments!
> http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



--
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
Storm
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Re: killacycle crash

evmagellan
In reply to this post by Roy LeMeur
Best wishes to Bill, friends and family. Recover fully and quickly.


I can't help but think of how much worse this could have been, and I
desperately hope this doesn't cause anyone to speak ill of Bill, Killacycle,
or EVs in general.

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1234