Humming bird battery passes German test. 400 mile range.

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Humming bird battery passes German test. 400 mile range.

Lawrence Rhodes
http://evworld.com/currents.cfm?jid=180

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Re: Humming bird battery passes German test. 400 mile range.

dave cover-2
So when will they available to, and affordable by, the general public?

DAC

On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 12:42 PM, Lawrence Rhodes
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> http://evworld.com/currents.cfm?jid=180
>
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Re: Humming bird battery passes German test. 400 mile range.

Kirill Spitzer
That topic has been discussed some months ago in the German forum Motor-Talk.de. Since they dont show any real evidence for their battery, they are considered as scam.



-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 12:52:19 -0400
> Von: dave cover <[hidden email]>
> An: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
> Betreff: Re: [EVDL] Humming bird battery passes German test. 400 mile range.

> So when will they available to, and affordable by, the general public?
>
> DAC
>
> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 12:42 PM, Lawrence Rhodes
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > http://evworld.com/currents.cfm?jid=180
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
>
>
>
> --
> http://www.evalbum.com/2149
>
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Re: Humming bird battery passes German test. 400 mile range.

dave cover-2
The story says the batteries were certified by DEKRA. Who are they? A
reliable organization or just part of the scam?

DAC

On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 4:09 PM, Kirill Spitzer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> That topic has been discussed some months ago in the German forum Motor-Talk.de. Since they dont show any real evidence for their battery, they are considered as scam.
>
>
>
> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
>> Datum: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 12:52:19 -0400
>> Von: dave cover <[hidden email]>
>> An: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
>> Betreff: Re: [EVDL] Humming bird battery passes German test. 400 mile range.
>
>> So when will they available to, and affordable by, the general public?
>>
>> DAC
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 12:42 PM, Lawrence Rhodes
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > http://evworld.com/currents.cfm?jid=180
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
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>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://www.evalbum.com/2149
>>
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>
> --
> Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir
> belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de
>
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Re: Humming bird battery passes German test. 400 mile range.

Lee Hart
Kirill Spitzer<[hidden email]>  wrote:
> That topic has been discussed some months ago in the German forum
> Motor-Talk.de. Since they don't show any real evidence for their
> battery, they are considered as scam.

"Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan

"There are liars, damned liars, and battery salesmen." -- anonymous

It isn't too hard to rig a test to show extraordinary range. For
example, BAT International went 1000 miles on a charge. The fine print
was that it was a golf cart sized vehicle, on a closed track, driving
under 20 mph, and packed way beyond capacity with a *NON* rechargeable
pack of zinc-air primary batteries. It's a good publicity stunt, but has
no practical value.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Re: Humming bird battery passes German test. 400 mile range.

NeilBlanchard
In reply to this post by dave cover-2
Hello,

> The story says the batteries were certified by DEKRA. Who are they? A
> reliable organization or just part of the scam?

http://www.dekra-usa.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dekra

>> That topic has been discussed some months ago in the German forum Motor-Talk.de. Since they dont show any real evidence for their battery, they are considered as scam.

Well, we now have new evidence that they are legit, and the battery is as good as advertised -- please read these links:

http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1058119_its-official-dbm-energys-electric-car-battery-is-real

http://evworld.com/currents.cfm?jid=180


Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/


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Re: Humming bird battery passes German test. 400 mile range.

Tom Keenan
... but both 'tests' relied on 'estimated mileage' - somewhat like the Volt
vetting 252 MPG (or whatever they claimed...)
 
And, both articles (ev world, all cars electric) are hype based on press
releases.  In other words, still no evidence they are legit.

Perhaps someday, but not today.

Tom Keenan

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Re: Humming bird battery passes German test. 400 mile range.

martinwinlow

On 22 Apr 2011, at 02:59, Tom Keenan wrote:

> ... but both 'tests' relied on 'estimated mileage' - somewhat like  
> the Volt
> vetting 252 MPG (or whatever they claimed...)
>
> And, both articles (ev world, all cars electric) are hype based on  
> press
> releases.  In other words, still no evidence they are legit.
>
> Perhaps someday, but not today.
>
> Tom Keenan
>


Hi Tom,

Don't quite understand on what basis you are totally poo-pooing the  
Kolibri battery.  Dekra are a huge company (22k employees) and have a  
very high reputation globally - I can't see how they could be involved  
in any sort of scam.  Either the batteries work as specified or they  
don't.  Even their longevity has been verified (5k cycles tho I don't  
know what capacity remains at that 'age').

This article suggests a 100kWh pack at a cost of 1k euros... http://seekingalpha.com/instablog/21153-sufiy/161327-dbm-energy-kolibri-lithium-batteries-passes-safety-tests-new-independent-range-test-confirms-455-km-on-one-charge-tnr-v-czx-v-rm-v-lmr-v-alk-ax-lun-to-cgp-v-abn-v

It is generally accepted that the currant crop of Lithium based cells  
are only giving 10% of their theoretical maximum energy density so  
perhaps we should just let things pan out before writing it off.

Of course, we may still be a very long way from seeing any off-the-
shelf products...

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk



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Re: Humming bird battery passes German test. 400 mile range.

Albert Hochmair
In reply to this post by NeilBlanchard
Hello,
thats all a joke , the colibri is fly away.
dont waste time , all story┬┤s about are scrap

Albert Hochmair
[hidden email]



Am 22.04.2011 um 02:01 schrieb Neil Blanchard:

> Hello,
>
>> The story says the batteries were certified by DEKRA. Who are they? A
>> reliable organization or just part of the scam?
>
> http://www.dekra-usa.com/
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dekra
>
>>> That topic has been discussed some months ago in the German forum Motor-Talk.de. Since they dont show any real evidence for their battery, they are considered as scam.
>
> Well, we now have new evidence that they are legit, and the battery is as good as advertised -- please read these links:
>
> http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1058119_its-official-dbm-energys-electric-car-battery-is-real
>
> http://evworld.com/currents.cfm?jid=180
>
>
> Sincerely, Neil
> http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/
>
>
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Re: Humming bird battery passes German test. 400 mile range.

NeilBlanchard
In reply to this post by martinwinlow
Hello,

>> ... but both 'tests' relied on 'estimated mileage' - somewhat like  
>> the Volt
>> vetting 252 MPG (or whatever they claimed...)

No, actually the A2 was driven 375 miles at 55mph average at night, and the 99kWh pack had 18% charge left.  This is actual driving.


>> And, both articles (ev world, all cars electric) are hype based on  
>> press
>> releases.  In other words, still no evidence they are legit.

I know the history of the All Cars Electric author, and she was quite unbiased in the past about the Hummingbird / Kolibri battery.  She reported on the original test and the fire, and I'm pretty sure she did due diligence on researching this article.

> Don't quite understand on what basis you are totally poo-pooing the  
> Kolibri battery.  Dekra are a huge company (22k employees) and have a  
> very high reputation globally - I can't see how they could be involved  
> in any sort of scam.  Either the batteries work as specified or they  
> don't.  Even their longevity has been verified (5k cycles tho I don't  
> know what capacity remains at that 'age').
>
> This article suggests a 100kWh pack at a cost of 1k euros... http://seekingalpha.com/instablog/21153-sufiy/161327-dbm-energy-kolibri-lithium-batteries-passes-safety-tests-new-independent-range-test-confirms-455-km-on-one-charge-tnr-v-czx-v-rm-v-lmr-v-alk-ax-lun-to-cgp-v-abn-v
>
> It is generally accepted that the currant crop of Lithium based cells  
> are only giving 10% of their theoretical maximum energy density so  
> perhaps we should just let things pan out before writing it off.
>
> Of course, we may still be a very long way from seeing any off-the-
> shelf products...

Right -- I agree with this.  Certainly, we will all "know" what is true if / when this battery gets used in "real" cars.  And it is certainly *extremely* interesting if a 100kWh pack this good could cost so little.  And by the way, this battery can be charged incredibly fast, as well -- like in 6 minutes.  If they go on sale, we'll be very happy.  If they cost more than is now thought, or, they run into snags, then that is par for the course.

Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/


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Re: Humming bird battery passes German test. 400 mile range.

AMPhibian
I think something is way off on the cost.  It may be just the materials cost but I'm not sure the materials alone could cost that little.  They could be off by a decimal place and still have a price breakthrough, so something isn't adding up.  The density claims do seem to be within the realm of possibility.

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Re: Humming bird battery passes German test. 400 mile range.

Coleston
What an exciting turn of events to see these batteries pass some sort of
qualifier. To me seems like the article is legit, and it makes sense. German
engineering and a gov't actually funding R&D. And they got results? Gasp!

I'm personally very excited and can't wait to see the results of further in
depth testing and hopefully low cost commercial distribution.



On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:48 AM, AMPhibian <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think something is way off on the cost.  It may be just the materials
> cost
> but I'm not sure the materials alone could cost that little.  They could be
> off by a decimal place and still have a price breakthrough, so something
> isn't adding up.  The density claims do seem to be within the realm of
> possibility.
>
>
> Neil Blanchard wrote:
> >
> >> This article suggests a 100kWh pack at a cost of 1k euros...
> >>
> http://seekingalpha.com/instablog/21153-sufiy/161327-dbm-energy-kolibri-lithium-batteries-passes-safety-tests-new-independent-range-test-confirms-455-km-on-one-charge-tnr-v-czx-v-rm-v-lmr-v-alk-ax-lun-to-cgp-v-abn-v
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Humming-bird-battery-passes-German-test-400-mile-range-tp3466382p3467994.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
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Re: Humming bird battery passes German test. 400 mile range.

Tom Keenan
In reply to this post by NeilBlanchard
Although I hope they have made some sort of major breakthrough with battery
technology, there are several reasons I'm skeptical about the claims -

The lack of hard data beyond manufacturer press releases is disturbing.

"The government and company are holding the technology close to the  chest"  If
there was a quote that could be attributed to just about every fantastic claim
in history, this would be it.  You could use the same quote with HHO, magnetic
alignment of fuel ions, 200 MPG carburetors, etc.

High energy to weight ratio batteries have been around since at least the
1950's.  So a vehicle could be made to go as far as the claim.  Problem being is
to get these batteries to discharge and recharge in a real environment without
permanent degradation.  In this case, the 'independent tests' (perhaps
interpolated data from a dozen or so cycles?) are claimed to support several
thousand cycles.  However, the test vehicle (the A2) was reported to have burned
up - probably during the first few discharge/recharge cycles.  Was this a
problem with the batteries, poor charge management, a design fault of the
conversion itself, or ?  


On the other hand, these batteries are supposed to be very low cost - If they
are that cheap to manufacture, then they'll have no problem repeating the test
in a couple of months.  Every electric auto manufacturer will be buying these
batteries in no time.

If these specific batteries have some sort of fatal flaw, (perhaps they aren't
vibration tolerant, something not tested on a lab bench during a cycle test)
they won't come to market and the reporting will die away. Time will tell.

Tom Keenan




----- Original Message ----
From: Neil Blanchard <[hidden email]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 4:06:29 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Humming bird battery passes German test. 400 mile range.

Hello,

>> ... but both 'tests' relied on 'estimated mileage' - somewhat like  
>> the Volt
>> vetting 252 MPG (or whatever they claimed...)

No, actually the A2 was driven 375 miles at 55mph average at night, and the
99kWh pack had 18% charge left.  This is actual driving.


>> And, both articles (ev world, all cars electric) are hype based on  
>> press
>> releases.  In other words, still no evidence they are legit.

I know the history of the All Cars Electric author, and she was quite unbiased
in the past about the Hummingbird / Kolibri battery.  She reported on the
original test and the fire, and I'm pretty sure she did due diligence on
researching this article.

> Don't quite understand on what basis you are totally poo-pooing the  
> Kolibri battery.  Dekra are a huge company (22k employees) and have a  
> very high reputation globally - I can't see how they could be involved  
> in any sort of scam.  Either the batteries work as specified or they  
> don't.  Even their longevity has been verified (5k cycles tho I don't  
> know what capacity remains at that 'age').
>
> This article suggests a 100kWh pack at a cost of 1k euros...
>http://seekingalpha.com/instablog/21153-sufiy/161327-dbm-energy-kolibri-lithium-batteries-passes-safety-tests-new-independent-range-test-confirms-455-km-on-one-charge-tnr-v-czx-v-rm-v-lmr-v-alk-ax-lun-to-cgp-v-abn-v
>
>
> It is generally accepted that the currant crop of Lithium based cells  
> are only giving 10% of their theoretical maximum energy density so  
> perhaps we should just let things pan out before writing it off.
>
> Of course, we may still be a very long way from seeing any off-the-
> shelf products...

Right -- I agree with this.  Certainly, we will all "know" what is true if /
when this battery gets used in "real" cars.  And it is certainly *extremely*
interesting if a 100kWh pack this good could cost so little.  And by the way,
this battery can be charged incredibly fast, as well -- like in 6 minutes.  If
they go on sale, we'll be very happy.  If they cost more than is now thought,
or, they run into snags, then that is par for the course.

Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/


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Re: Humming bird battery passes German test. 400 mile range.

Mark Grasser
I am also skeptical.

I have an engineer friend in Germany that watched the car testing going on,
An Audi, He says the car disappeared for about 2-1/2 hours during the run,
reappeared and finished with energy to spare. Then out of the blue the car
burns to the ground.......


Send ME a battery and I will test it!!!


Sincerely,
Mark Grasser
 


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Tom Keenan
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 11:10 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Humming bird battery passes German test. 400 mile range.

Although I hope they have made some sort of major breakthrough with battery
technology, there are several reasons I'm skeptical about the claims -

The lack of hard data beyond manufacturer press releases is disturbing.

"The government and company are holding the technology close to the  chest"
If
there was a quote that could be attributed to just about every fantastic
claim
in history, this would be it.  You could use the same quote with HHO,
magnetic
alignment of fuel ions, 200 MPG carburetors, etc.

High energy to weight ratio batteries have been around since at least the
1950's.  So a vehicle could be made to go as far as the claim.  Problem
being is
to get these batteries to discharge and recharge in a real environment
without
permanent degradation.  In this case, the 'independent tests' (perhaps
interpolated data from a dozen or so cycles?) are claimed to support several

thousand cycles.  However, the test vehicle (the A2) was reported to have
burned
up - probably during the first few discharge/recharge cycles.  Was this a
problem with the batteries, poor charge management, a design fault of the
conversion itself, or ?  


On the other hand, these batteries are supposed to be very low cost - If
they
are that cheap to manufacture, then they'll have no problem repeating the
test
in a couple of months.  Every electric auto manufacturer will be buying
these
batteries in no time.

If these specific batteries have some sort of fatal flaw, (perhaps they
aren't
vibration tolerant, something not tested on a lab bench during a cycle test)

they won't come to market and the reporting will die away. Time will tell.

Tom Keenan




----- Original Message ----
From: Neil Blanchard <[hidden email]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 4:06:29 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Humming bird battery passes German test. 400 mile range.

Hello,

>> ... but both 'tests' relied on 'estimated mileage' - somewhat like  
>> the Volt
>> vetting 252 MPG (or whatever they claimed...)

No, actually the A2 was driven 375 miles at 55mph average at night, and the
99kWh pack had 18% charge left.  This is actual driving.


>> And, both articles (ev world, all cars electric) are hype based on  
>> press
>> releases.  In other words, still no evidence they are legit.

I know the history of the All Cars Electric author, and she was quite
unbiased
in the past about the Hummingbird / Kolibri battery.  She reported on the
original test and the fire, and I'm pretty sure she did due diligence on
researching this article.

> Don't quite understand on what basis you are totally poo-pooing the  
> Kolibri battery.  Dekra are a huge company (22k employees) and have a  
> very high reputation globally - I can't see how they could be involved  
> in any sort of scam.  Either the batteries work as specified or they  
> don't.  Even their longevity has been verified (5k cycles tho I don't  
> know what capacity remains at that 'age').
>
> This article suggests a 100kWh pack at a cost of 1k euros...
>http://seekingalpha.com/instablog/21153-sufiy/161327-dbm-energy-kolibri-lit
hium-batteries-passes-safety-tests-new-independent-range-test-confirms-455-k
m-on-one-charge-tnr-v-czx-v-rm-v-lmr-v-alk-ax-lun-to-cgp-v-abn-v
>
>
> It is generally accepted that the currant crop of Lithium based cells  
> are only giving 10% of their theoretical maximum energy density so  
> perhaps we should just let things pan out before writing it off.
>
> Of course, we may still be a very long way from seeing any off-the-
> shelf products...

Right -- I agree with this.  Certainly, we will all "know" what is true if /

when this battery gets used in "real" cars.  And it is certainly *extremely*

interesting if a 100kWh pack this good could cost so little.  And by the
way,
this battery can be charged incredibly fast, as well -- like in 6 minutes.
If
they go on sale, we'll be very happy.  If they cost more than is now
thought,
or, they run into snags, then that is par for the course.

Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/


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Re: Humming bird battery passes German test. 400 mile range.

EVDL Administrator
In reply to this post by Lee Hart
On 21 Apr 2011 at 18:24, Lee Hart wrote:

> For example, BAT International went 1000 miles on a charge. The fine
> print was that it was a golf cart sized vehicle, on a closed track,
> driving under 20 mph, and packed way beyond capacity with a *NON*
> rechargeable pack of zinc-air primary batteries.

BAT's fearless leader Joe LaStella also made PR hay out of his Geo Metro
conversion with hundreds of miles of range.  

They never admitted it, and wouldn't let anyone close enough to see, but
Eagle-Picher Battery receipts reportedly indicated that BAT had bought a
quantity of nickel-silver batteries from them.  It's not too far fetched to
think that their Metro was so fitted.

Nickel-silver batteries are (1) remarkably high in specific energy; (2)
fairly short lived; and (3) crushingly expensive, as one would expect of a
battery with a silver electrode.  GM used them for the Electrovair back
1966, if memory serves.  They're mostly used by NASA and the military, in
applications where specific energy is paramount and cost is immaterial.  
They're completely impractical for a production EV.  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: Humming bird battery passes German test. 400 mile range.

AMPhibian
In reply to this post by Mark Grasser
The batteries were not in the car that burned.  As for the first test, I'd read reports that the car was out of sight for a few minutes, not 2 1/2 hours.  Supposedly versions of this battery have been in use in forklifts for about 2 years.  

Mark Grasser wrote
I am also skeptical.

I have an engineer friend in Germany that watched the car testing going on,
An Audi, He says the car disappeared for about 2-1/2 hours during the run,
reappeared and finished with energy to spare. Then out of the blue the car
burns to the ground.......


Send ME a battery and I will test it!!!


Sincerely,
Mark Grasser