Hybridizing our EV

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
13 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Hybridizing our EV

martin emde-2
Greetings,
Our high school class (www.seaburyhall.org/engineering) is planning to add a
small (< 2000 watt) genset to our EV to extend our 30 mile range.  We would
like the generator to be able to run both while the car is parked and while
being driven.  Our plan is to simply plug the charger (Russco SC18-120 SO)
into the generator and hope that the charger will provide current while the
motor is drawing current from the pack.  I'm concerned that the charger may
behave strangely when it sees the fluctuations in the pack voltage caused by
the motor drawing current.  We would like to keep this modification as
simple as possible and manual control of the generator is fine for now.  If
anyone who has experience with such a mod would like to comment on the idea,
it would be greatly appreciated.  In the mean time I plan to contact Russco
regarding the possible charger issues.  Also, our preference would be a
small diesel genset.  Anyone know of a supplier?
Thanks.
Martin
_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hybridizing our EV

(-Phil-)
2kw is not really going to add that much to your range.  Have you calculated
your watt draw at cruising?  Even some of the most efficient ones are well
into the tens of kilowatts at a useful speed.

-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "martin emde" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 12:55 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Hybridizing our EV


> Greetings,
> Our high school class (www.seaburyhall.org/engineering) is planning to add
> a
> small (< 2000 watt) genset to our EV to extend our 30 mile range.  We
> would
> like the generator to be able to run both while the car is parked and
> while
> being driven.  Our plan is to simply plug the charger (Russco SC18-120 SO)
> into the generator and hope that the charger will provide current while
> the
> motor is drawing current from the pack.  I'm concerned that the charger
> may
> behave strangely when it sees the fluctuations in the pack voltage caused
> by
> the motor drawing current.  We would like to keep this modification as
> simple as possible and manual control of the generator is fine for now.
> If
> anyone who has experience with such a mod would like to comment on the
> idea,
> it would be greatly appreciated.  In the mean time I plan to contact
> Russco
> regarding the possible charger issues.  Also, our preference would be a
> small diesel genset.  Anyone know of a supplier?
> Thanks.
> Martin
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hybridizing our EV

gottdi
I guess then an 8kW gen set that can produce 220 at 30 amps or 110 at  
60 amps would not do!  8kW is 8kW no matter if its AC or DC I  
presume. I would think a gen set of this size would do fine for  
cruising speeds and low amp draw. Excess could then be routed to the  
battery pack. From what I have gathered the output needs to be hooked  
directly to the motor and the pack. That way not all the genset power  
is pumped through the pack but directly to the motor and the motor  
can actually take from the genset and pack at the same time and if  
the cruising power needed is less than what is being produced by the  
pack it is then routed to the pack and stored for when you need it.  
Even if you don't have a genset that can produce enough to run the  
vehicle at cruise it could be helpful for extending the distance  
anyway. Google and you will find many small diesel gensets. I have  
used craigs list to look for older single and twin cylinder marine  
diesel gensets. They are out there. A bit bulkier than the air cooled  
kind but looks like they would last for just about ever and yes you  
can run bio or vo with them.

Pete
On Nov 29, 2007, at 1:04 PM, (-Phil-) wrote:

> 2kw is not really going to add that much to your range.  Have you  
> calculated
> your watt draw at cruising?  Even some of the most efficient ones  
> are well
> into the tens of kilowatts at a useful speed.
>
> -Phil
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "martin emde" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 12:55 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] Hybridizing our EV
>
>
>> Greetings,
>> Our high school class (www.seaburyhall.org/engineering) is  
>> planning to add
>> a
>> small (< 2000 watt) genset to our EV to extend our 30 mile range.  We
>> would
>> like the generator to be able to run both while the car is parked and
>> while
>> being driven.  Our plan is to simply plug the charger (Russco  
>> SC18-120 SO)
>> into the generator and hope that the charger will provide current  
>> while
>> the
>> motor is drawing current from the pack.  I'm concerned that the  
>> charger
>> may
>> behave strangely when it sees the fluctuations in the pack voltage  
>> caused
>> by
>> the motor drawing current.  We would like to keep this  
>> modification as
>> simple as possible and manual control of the generator is fine for  
>> now.
>> If
>> anyone who has experience with such a mod would like to comment on  
>> the
>> idea,
>> it would be greatly appreciated.  In the mean time I plan to contact
>> Russco
>> regarding the possible charger issues.  Also, our preference would  
>> be a
>> small diesel genset.  Anyone know of a supplier?
>> Thanks.
>> Martin
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
http://onegreenev.blogspot.com/
No need to wait any longer. You can now buy one off the shelf. You can still build one too.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hybridizing our EV

John Lussmyer
[hidden email] wrote:
> I guess then an 8kW gen set that can produce 220 at 30 amps or 110 at  
> 60 amps would not do!  8kW is 8kW no matter if its AC or DC I  
> presume. I would think a gen set of this size would do fine for  
> cruising speeds and low amp draw. Excess could then be routed to the  
>  

Any generator size at all counts as a range extender.  The bigger the
genset, the further you can go on a single charge.
I'm playing with just such a system on my Sparrow.  My little Kipor
KGE2000i genset can provide about 1600W of power.
The Sparrow cruises at around 9KW, so the generator all by itself, at
highway speed, only extends range by about 15%.
BUT, I'm not always at high speed.  I'm often stopped at lights, etc...  
During those times it charges the pack, which adds a bit more range.
(I have my PFC-40 plugged into the genset.)

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hybridizing our EV

David Sharpe
In reply to this post by martin emde-2
For your power supply, why not consider an induction alternator? This will
be a 3600RPM (US 60Hz) induction motor about 20kVA driven by a V belts to an
ex automotive 4cyl Diesel doing about 2000RPM. You need a star connected
machine that you will convert to delta. At the terminals you connect
capacitors in delta and a 6 diode rectifier and you have an ideal power
supply for charging batteries that are "dynamic" ie in use. Advantages-cheap
& easy to use, only one conversion. Disadvantages not easy to control power
(vary speed, change no of capacitors), produces high volts on no load, never
operate without battery. Best to have a circuit to disconnect capacitors if
high Volts detected. Contact off list for more info.
David Sharpe
----- Origin. al Message -----
From: "martin emde" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 7:55 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Hybridizing our EV


> Greetings,
> Our high school class (www.seaburyhall.org/engineering) is planning to add
> a
> small (< 2000 watt) genset to our EV to extend our 30 mile range.  We
> would
> like the generator to be able to run both while the car is parked and
> while
> being driven.  Our plan is to simply plug the charger (Russco SC18-120 SO)
> into the generator and hope that the charger will provide current while
> the
> motor is drawing current from the pack.  I'm concerned that the charger
> may
> behave strangely when it sees the fluctuations in the pack voltage caused
> by
> the motor drawing current.  We would like to keep this modification as
> simple as possible and manual control of the generator is fine for now.
> If
> anyone who has experience with such a mod would like to comment on the
> idea,
> it would be greatly appreciated.  In the mean time I plan to contact
> Russco
> regarding the possible charger issues.  Also, our preference would be a
> small diesel genset.  Anyone know of a supplier?
> Thanks.
> Martin
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hybridizing our EV

Geopilot
In reply to this post by John Lussmyer
I rally hope that you guys are monitoring the emission from your
generators for pollution. I hope you have gone to a emissions testing
station and stuck the sensor up your generators exhaust pipe.

If you guys are taking a well regulated modern car off the road and
replacing it with a emission polluting gas hybrid that pollutes the air
I breath I am going to be pissed.

Remember it is not hard to build a high mileage vehicle without
emissions control. The 1970's honda CVCC got nearly 50 miles to the
gallon but couldn't be continued because the engine created too many
emissions.

Don't replace a modern car with a false hybrid with a pollution spewing
generator that pollutes more than 10 modern cars!

Make sure your generator is low polluting!


On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 1:59 pm, John G. Lussmyer wrote:

> [hidden email] wrote:
>>  I guess then an 8kW gen set that can produce 220 at 30 amps or 110 at
>>  60 amps would not do!  8kW is 8kW no matter if its AC or DC I
>>  presume. I would think a gen set of this size would do fine for
>>  cruising speeds and low amp draw. Excess could then be routed to the
>>
>
> Any generator size at all counts as a range extender.  The bigger the
> genset, the further you can go on a single charge.
> I'm playing with just such a system on my Sparrow.  My little Kipor
> KGE2000i genset can provide about 1600W of power.
> The Sparrow cruises at around 9KW, so the generator all by itself, at
> highway speed, only extends range by about 15%.
> BUT, I'm not always at high speed.  I'm often stopped at lights, etc...
> During those times it charges the pack, which adds a bit more range.
> (I have my PFC-40 plugged into the genset.)
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.

www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hybridizing our EV

gottdi
Well mine is diesel and smog exempt. Even if it spewed forth it is a  
small engine and would pollute less than most modern engines. I will  
be using bio or VO and not diesel. That will help. Not pollution free  
but a step in the right direction. : )  I am looking for a modern  
small turbo diesel that is common rail and direct injection. VW makes  
them in the Europe market that is stricter than us on pollution. : )  
Just got to find a way to get them here for the hybrid.

: )



On Nov 29, 2007, at 4:47 PM, GWMobile wrote:

> Make sure your generator is low polluting!

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
http://onegreenev.blogspot.com/
No need to wait any longer. You can now buy one off the shelf. You can still build one too.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hybridizing our EV

Dan Frederiksen-2
In reply to this post by martin emde-2
it was my impression that some generators are very fuel inefficient.
watch for that

Dan

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hybridizing our EV

Douglas Hartley
In reply to this post by martin emde-2
10:10 PM EST
Martin,
I have made several range extender generators using the eCycle MGA series
BLDC motor/generator feeding a 3 phase bridge directly to the battery pack
(no charger losses).  It is compact (8 inches diameter by 4 inches long for
the 4+ kw single stack size) light (about 30 pounds + your choice of engine)
efficient and has good regulation characteristics: no voltage spike at light
load, voltage proportional to RPM and no bulky capacitors required.  I have
a wound stator type in stock that they used to make, suitable for a battery
pack of about 96V nominal.  (They are now concentrating on low voltage
solid-slot)  However they are new and not cheap like a used induction motor.
What is your battery pack voltage?

  I have most often built generators with a single stack MGA coupled to
Robin-Subaru 7.5 HP OHC gas engines, but it could be done with a small
Diesel.  For example, Pricess Auto (Canada) has the 6 HP Diesel on sale for
another 10 days at $399.  I also have made a bigger tripple stack generator
with a 24HP V-twin, good for about 14kw.
Give consideration to the emissions of the engine chosen.  It is best to
reserve this approach for just occasional use and size the battery pack or
use lithium ion batteries for regular longer range requirements.

I also have an idea for a removeable "electronic generator" for range
extension: a boost converter power supply that can convert whatever extra
battery pack is available up to the desired vehicle pack voltage.  For
example, load when needed a 48V battery pack (perhaps from your best
surviving previous pack old batteries) to help supply the 96V pack with
about 40A.  The same boost converter power supply could also up-convert from
a too-low voltage solar array, such as a Sunpower 20% efficient 315W panel.

Email off line if you are interested to know more.

Best Regards,

Doug



----- Original Message -----
From: "martin emde" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 3:55 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Hybridizing our EV


> Greetings,
> Our high school class (www.seaburyhall.org/engineering) is planning to add
> a
> small (< 2000 watt) genset to our EV to extend our 30 mile range.  We
> would
> like the generator to be able to run both while the car is parked and
> while
> being driven.  Our plan is to simply plug the charger (Russco SC18-120 SO)
> into the generator and hope that the charger will provide current while
> the
> motor is drawing current from the pack.  I'm concerned that the charger
> may
> behave strangely when it sees the fluctuations in the pack voltage caused
> by
> the motor drawing current.  We would like to keep this modification as
> simple as possible and manual control of the generator is fine for now.
> If
> anyone who has experience with such a mod would like to comment on the
> idea,
> it would be greatly appreciated.  In the mean time I plan to contact
> Russco
> regarding the possible charger issues.  Also, our preference would be a
> small diesel genset.  Anyone know of a supplier?
> Thanks.
> Martin
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hybridizing our EV

John Lussmyer
In reply to this post by Geopilot
GWMobile wrote:
> I rally hope that you guys are monitoring the emission from your
> generators for pollution. I hope you have gone to a emissions testing
> station and stuck the sensor up your generators exhaust pipe.
>
> If you guys are taking a well regulated modern car off the road and
> replacing it with a emission polluting gas hybrid that pollutes the air
> I breath I am going to be pissed.
>  

In my case I simply can NOT get a car to do what a Hybrid Sparrow can
do.  Legally be a motorcycle.
I'm also planning on this being a temporary solution until I can afford
some decent batteries that are better than Optima Garbage Tops.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hybridizing our EV

John Lussmyer
In reply to this post by gottdi
[hidden email] wrote:
> Well mine is diesel and smog exempt. Even if it spewed forth it is a  
> small engine and would pollute less than most modern engines. I will  
>  

Not likely.  Modern small car engines are quite good at reduced
emissions.  Pretty much any generator you buy for less than the cost of
a small car will put out FAR more pollution.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hybridizing our EV

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by John Lussmyer
John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> In my case I simply can NOT get a car to do what a Hybrid Sparrow can
> do.  Legally be a motorcycle.

John, how has this little generator on the back worked out? How much
extra range does it actually provide?

On the pollution side, it runs on gasoline; right? Could you modify it
to run on E85, alcohol or propane? They are cleaner fuels, and still
fairly easy to get.

I wonder if you technically have to pay road tax on fuel for a generator
if the electricity is used to recharge an electric car? :-)

> I'm also planning on this being a temporary solution until I can afford
> some decent batteries that are better than Optima Garbage Tops.

What's the latest on this sad saga? Did they replace the latest bad
ones? Besides the quality control issues, do the (nominally) good
Optimas still work OK? What other batteries are Sparrow owners finding
to be the best choice for their little birds?
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hybridizing our EV

John Lussmyer
Lee Hart wrote:
> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
>  
>> In my case I simply can NOT get a car to do what a Hybrid Sparrow can
>> do.  Legally be a motorcycle.
>>    
> John, how has this little generator on the back worked out? How much
> extra range does it actually provide?
>  
Not sure yet, as I'm still fighting with bad Optimas.
I get 1.6KW from the genset the whole time.  I cruise at about 9KW at 55mph.
I also sit on the ferry dock for 5-10 minutes as well.

> On the pollution side, it runs on gasoline; right? Could you modify it
> to run on E85, alcohol or propane? They are cleaner fuels, and still
> fairly easy to get.
>  
Possibly, but it is a complete system with electronic controls.  I'm not
sure I want to tinker with it.  (I also need it to keep the computer
working during power failures - remember I live on an Island!)

> What's the latest on this sad saga? Did they replace the latest bad
> ones? Besides the quality control issues, do the (nominally) good
> Optimas still work OK? What other batteries are Sparrow owners finding
> to be the best choice for their little birds?
>  

I'm still waiting on my last 2 replacement Optimas.  The company has
been rather slow in shipping them this time.  (Like, they haven't
shipped yet after 3 weeks!)
IF these 2 are good (about a 50% chance of one of them being bad), that
will make 18 batteries to find 13 good ones.

I'm fairly certain that the reason the supplier says that Optimas are
good and that they get very few returns, is that their customers don't
actually test them, and won't notice when one has only 1/2 normal
reserve capacity.  It still starts the engine!

A Sparrow is pretty much stuck with Optimas or Orbitals, and Orbitals
take some work to make them fit.
I'm seriously looking into some of the LiFePo options, it's just a lot
of money - again.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev