Isn't 120 V. outlet a sufficient "EVSE" ?

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
61 messages Options
1234
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Isn't 120 V. outlet a sufficient "EVSE" ?

Dennis Miles
      Below is a link (it is safe,) to an eight minute audio link you all
should listen to. The speaker is from the electric and gas utility in San
Diego, California. I believe it brings forth many valid points which are
very disturbing about the excessively expensive charging stations we are
all wasting our money on when they are simply not needed or necessary for
Electric Car use. "WAKE UP AMERICA" We are being ripped off by profiteers
and charlatans who are simply out to make a big profit at our expense. Will
the next item be a five pound box of "Baking Soda" for $5,000 to sprinkle
under your electric car if the battery leaks?  (Just as useless!)
**
*
http://us.evupdate.com/fc_tele_evupdatelz/lz.aspx?p1=05440502S538&CC=&p=1&cID=0&cValue=1
*
**

        To summarise, for charging at home, The 120 V. 15 A. outlet as is
typical in the American home provides sufficient electrical power to
recharge an electric car in about five hours to replace that charge used in
driving up to 40 miles daily   (That is 85% of American drivers.)  An
investment of thousands of dollars to be able to recharge from 240 V. at 50
A. is superfluous.  Even owners of the Tesla Sports car who paid $109,000
for the car usually use only a 120 V. outlet for recharging (70% from
owner's survey) because they do not, nor does any other member of the
majority of electric car users feel any cost above $400 is a reasonable
value for a dedicated electric outlet in their home. Thus the J1772
standard level 2 is suitable for public charging stations only because it
is being funded by "Grants" and is free to the users. Apparently only
salesmanship and advertising or marketing hype are responsible for
installation and use of the J1772 standard level 2 for recharging in
private garages, carports, or other local charging locations.

     Perhaps a better long term solution is light rail or other medium
range public transit alternatives for the daily driver who commutes more
than 40 to 60 miles on a daily basis. In that way, the many citizens would
be served not just the few served by a series of roadside "High Speed" DC
charging stations.
--
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles*   (Founder)
 *"**Electric Car Service Shop"*
*[ the Forgotten Infrastructure is Service! ]*
*[hidden email] <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/>    *
(Adviser)* EVTI-EVA Education Chapter*
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The number of EV on USA roads has doubbled this year.
But, who is fixing problems for Major Brand Purchassers ?
 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20120201/e15a4a4e/attachment.html 
_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Isn't 120 V. outlet a sufficient "EVSE" ?

Ron Solberg
Quoting Dennis Miles <[hidden email]>:

Hi,

Yes, This has been our approach as we set up our EVSE service here in  
Hills, MN.
We strive to keep it simple as long as we can.  Recently we have added  
2 Midwest RV panels to our CS40 and CS100 ClipperCreek units. Being  
next to a new high school we hope to have some customers this year or  
next.

http://carstations.com/1247

Thanks for sharing,
Ron Solberg

>       Below is a link (it is safe,) to an eight minute audio link you all
> should listen to. The speaker is from the electric and gas utility in San
> Diego, California. I believe it brings forth many valid points which are
> very disturbing about the excessively expensive charging stations we are
> all wasting our money on when they are simply not needed or necessary for
> Electric Car use. "WAKE UP AMERICA" We are being ripped off by profiteers
> and charlatans who are simply out to make a big profit at our expense. Will
> the next item be a five pound box of "Baking Soda" for $5,000 to sprinkle
> under your electric car if the battery leaks?  (Just as useless!)
> **
> *
> http://us.evupdate.com/fc_tele_evupdatelz/lz.aspx?p1=05440502S538&CC=&p=1&cID=0&cValue=1
> *
> **
>
>         To summarise, for charging at home, The 120 V. 15 A. outlet as is
> typical in the American home provides sufficient electrical power to
> recharge an electric car in about five hours to replace that charge used in
> driving up to 40 miles daily   (That is 85% of American drivers.)  An
> investment of thousands of dollars to be able to recharge from 240 V. at 50
> A. is superfluous.  Even owners of the Tesla Sports car who paid $109,000
> for the car usually use only a 120 V. outlet for recharging (70% from
> owner's survey) because they do not, nor does any other member of the
> majority of electric car users feel any cost above $400 is a reasonable
> value for a dedicated electric outlet in their home. Thus the J1772
> standard level 2 is suitable for public charging stations only because it
> is being funded by "Grants" and is free to the users. Apparently only
> salesmanship and advertising or marketing hype are responsible for
> installation and use of the J1772 standard level 2 for recharging in
> private garages, carports, or other local charging locations.
>
>      Perhaps a better long term solution is light rail or other medium
> range public transit alternatives for the daily driver who commutes more
> than 40 to 60 miles on a daily basis. In that way, the many citizens would
> be served not just the few served by a series of roadside "High Speed" DC
> charging stations.
> --
> Regards,
> *Dennis Lee Miles*   (Founder)
>  *"**Electric Car Service Shop"*
> *[ the Forgotten Infrastructure is Service! ]*
> *[hidden email] <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/>    *
> (Adviser)* EVTI-EVA Education Chapter*
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> The number of EV on USA roads has doubbled this year.
> But, who is fixing problems for Major Brand Purchassers ?
>  +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:  
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20120201/e15a4a4e/attachment.html
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>


_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Isn't 120 V. outlet a sufficient "EVSE" ?

Roland Wiench
In reply to this post by Dennis Miles
The NEC requires in some installations that a receptacle and plug
combinations require to be a dead front type.  Meaning if the plug is remove
while there is a load to it, there is no arc between the pins of the plug
and receptacle.

Also there is no expose energize receptacle when not in use.  We normally
have to install this type of receptacle in explosion proof areas where we do
not want any arcing of contacts.

You can actually get any receptacles that has this feature.  The plug has a
shorter ground pin then the feeder pins.  When inserted into the receptacle,
the feeder pins mate first and the ground pin mates last which turns on a
mechanical switch inside the receptacle which powers the receptacle.

The receptacle is install in a cast alloy explosion proof box.  We use a
Crouse Hinds receptacle combination that you can get from any electrical
supply house.  Its been awhile, but I think I paid about $55.00 for a dead
front 125 V 20 amp receptacle and plug.

For my EV charging, I use a 50 amp twist lock 125/250 volt 4 wire receptacle
and plug.  No dead front type.  I always for the last 36 years have first
turn down the charger current, turn off the charger breaker and then unplug
the main power cable in that order.

Roland




----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis Miles" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 8:39 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Isn't 120 V. outlet a sufficient "EVSE" ?


>       Below is a link (it is safe,) to an eight minute audio link you all
> should listen to. The speaker is from the electric and gas utility in San
> Diego, California. I believe it brings forth many valid points which are
> very disturbing about the excessively expensive charging stations we are
> all wasting our money on when they are simply not needed or necessary for
> Electric Car use. "WAKE UP AMERICA" We are being ripped off by profiteers
> and charlatans who are simply out to make a big profit at our expense.
> Will
> the next item be a five pound box of "Baking Soda" for $5,000 to sprinkle
> under your electric car if the battery leaks?  (Just as useless!)
> **
> *
> http://us.evupdate.com/fc_tele_evupdatelz/lz.aspx?p1=05440502S538&CC=&p=1&cID=0&cValue=1
> *
> **
>
>         To summarise, for charging at home, The 120 V. 15 A. outlet as is
> typical in the American home provides sufficient electrical power to
> recharge an electric car in about five hours to replace that charge used
> in
> driving up to 40 miles daily   (That is 85% of American drivers.)  An
> investment of thousands of dollars to be able to recharge from 240 V. at
> 50
> A. is superfluous.  Even owners of the Tesla Sports car who paid $109,000
> for the car usually use only a 120 V. outlet for recharging (70% from
> owner's survey) because they do not, nor does any other member of the
> majority of electric car users feel any cost above $400 is a reasonable
> value for a dedicated electric outlet in their home. Thus the J1772
> standard level 2 is suitable for public charging stations only because it
> is being funded by "Grants" and is free to the users. Apparently only
> salesmanship and advertising or marketing hype are responsible for
> installation and use of the J1772 standard level 2 for recharging in
> private garages, carports, or other local charging locations.
>
>      Perhaps a better long term solution is light rail or other medium
> range public transit alternatives for the daily driver who commutes more
> than 40 to 60 miles on a daily basis. In that way, the many citizens would
> be served not just the few served by a series of roadside "High Speed" DC
> charging stations.
> --
> Regards,
> *Dennis Lee Miles*   (Founder)
>  *"**Electric Car Service Shop"*
> *[ the Forgotten Infrastructure is Service! ]*
> *[hidden email] <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/>    *
> (Adviser)* EVTI-EVA Education Chapter*
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> The number of EV on USA roads has doubbled this year.
> But, who is fixing problems for Major Brand Purchassers ?
>  +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20120201/e15a4a4e/attachment.html
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Isn't 120 V. outlet a sufficient "EVSE" ?

David Nelson-5
In reply to this post by Dennis Miles
I think his numbers are optimistic. The current average distance I go
on 1 hour of charge from 120V 15A is ~6 miles. This is a combination
of hills, city driving and some at 50mph. Do full size cars actually
go ~5 miles on a 1 hour charge from a 120V 15A outlet? If my
Kill-a-watt meter is close my charger is drawing 12.25A and the line
voltage is 120.5Vac for ~1035W. Does the Leaf and other "typical" EVs
only consume ~200Wh/mi from the wall? I find that hard to believe. My
average over the last 11,000miles with my LiFePO4 pack is 172Wh/mi
from the wall. This is with a Gizmo which won't go over ~50mph. After
a 40 mile drive it takes 6-7 hours to charge the battery in my Gizmo.
No way a full sized car can charge in 5 hours after a 40 mile drive
when charging from a 120V 15A outlet if only 80% of its capacity is
used.

While I agree with his premise, it does him no good to use inaccurate
numbers or numbers from the battery and not from the wall.

On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 7:39 PM, Dennis Miles <[hidden email]> wrote:

>      Below is a link (it is safe,) to an eight minute audio link you all
> should listen to. The speaker is from the electric and gas utility in San
> Diego, California. I believe it brings forth many valid points which are
> very disturbing about the excessively expensive charging stations we are
> all wasting our money on when they are simply not needed or necessary for
> Electric Car use. "WAKE UP AMERICA" We are being ripped off by profiteers
> and charlatans who are simply out to make a big profit at our expense. Will
> the next item be a five pound box of "Baking Soda" for $5,000 to sprinkle
> under your electric car if the battery leaks?  (Just as useless!)
> **
> *
> http://us.evupdate.com/fc_tele_evupdatelz/lz.aspx?p1=05440502S538&CC=&p=1&cID=0&cValue=1
> *
> **
>
>        To summarise, for charging at home, The 120 V. 15 A. outlet as is
> typical in the American home provides sufficient electrical power to
> recharge an electric car in about five hours to replace that charge used in
> driving up to 40 miles daily   (That is 85% of American drivers.)  An
> investment of thousands of dollars to be able to recharge from 240 V. at 50
> A. is superfluous.  Even owners of the Tesla Sports car who paid $109,000
> for the car usually use only a 120 V. outlet for recharging (70% from
> owner's survey) because they do not, nor does any other member of the
> majority of electric car users feel any cost above $400 is a reasonable
> value for a dedicated electric outlet in their home. Thus the J1772
> standard level 2 is suitable for public charging stations only because it
> is being funded by "Grants" and is free to the users. Apparently only
> salesmanship and advertising or marketing hype are responsible for
> installation and use of the J1772 standard level 2 for recharging in
> private garages, carports, or other local charging locations.
>
>     Perhaps a better long term solution is light rail or other medium
> range public transit alternatives for the daily driver who commutes more
> than 40 to 60 miles on a daily basis. In that way, the many citizens would
> be served not just the few served by a series of roadside "High Speed" DC
> charging stations.
> --
> Regards,
> *Dennis Lee Miles*   (Founder)
>  *"**Electric Car Service Shop"*
> *[ the Forgotten Infrastructure is Service! ]*
> *[hidden email] <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/>    *
> (Adviser)* EVTI-EVA Education Chapter*
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> The number of EV on USA roads has doubbled this year.
> But, who is fixing problems for Major Brand Purchassers ?
>  +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20120201/e15a4a4e/attachment.html
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



--
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328
http://2003gizmo.blogspot.com

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Isn't 120 V. outlet a sufficient "EVSE" ?

David Ladd
In reply to this post by Dennis Miles
I charge at a little less than 5 miles/hour pulling 16a from a 20a outlet.  So a 40 mile day takes over 8 hours to charge back up.  And the low rates (if you are on time of use around here) are from 12am to 7am, so I get 7 hours to recharge.  Doesn't quite work.  And that's on a 20a outlet, not 15.


guess I need to lighten up on the right foot... 

david.
http://www.evalbum.com/4021



________________________________
 From: Dennis Miles <[hidden email]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2012 7:39 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Isn't 120 V. outlet a sufficient "EVSE" ?
 
      
        To summarise, for charging at home, The 120 V. 15 A. outlet as is
typical in the American home provides sufficient electrical power to
recharge an electric car in about five hours to replace that charge used in
driving up to 40 miles daily   (That is 85% of American drivers.)  
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20120201/92f5d675/attachment.html 
_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Isn't 120 V. outlet a sufficient "EVSE" ?

Cor van de Water
In reply to this post by David Nelson-5
David,

Your numbers appear to be wrong also - 120V * 12.25A is 1470W.

His numbers were not necessarily wrong but it is how you read them.
He said approx 5 hours for up to 40 miles.
Most people drive much less for commute, but in an extreme case
the 40 miles should take about 10kWh from the pack.
If you are pulling 120V 15A (which is very well possible as
continuous current from a 20A outlet) then you need 5 1/2 hours
to put 10kWh into the car. Of course there are efficiency losses
so it will be a little more, but the "about 5 hours for up to 40
miles" is not far from truth.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Nelson
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 9:44 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Isn't 120 V. outlet a sufficient "EVSE" ?

I think his numbers are optimistic. The current average distance I go on 1 hour of charge from 120V 15A is ~6 miles. This is a combination of hills, city driving and some at 50mph. Do full size cars actually go ~5 miles on a 1 hour charge from a 120V 15A outlet? If my Kill-a-watt meter is close my charger is drawing 12.25A and the line voltage is 120.5Vac for ~1035W. Does the Leaf and other "typical" EVs only consume ~200Wh/mi from the wall? I find that hard to believe. My average over the last 11,000miles with my LiFePO4 pack is 172Wh/mi from the wall. This is with a Gizmo which won't go over ~50mph. After a 40 mile drive it takes 6-7 hours to charge the battery in my Gizmo.
No way a full sized car can charge in 5 hours after a 40 mile drive when charging from a 120V 15A outlet if only 80% of its capacity is used.

While I agree with his premise, it does him no good to use inaccurate numbers or numbers from the battery and not from the wall.

On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 7:39 PM, Dennis Miles <[hidden email]> wrote:

>      Below is a link (it is safe,) to an eight minute audio link you
> all should listen to. The speaker is from the electric and gas utility
> in San Diego, California. I believe it brings forth many valid points
> which are very disturbing about the excessively expensive charging
> stations we are all wasting our money on when they are simply not
> needed or necessary for Electric Car use. "WAKE UP AMERICA" We are
> being ripped off by profiteers and charlatans who are simply out to
> make a big profit at our expense. Will the next item be a five pound
> box of "Baking Soda" for $5,000 to sprinkle under your electric car if
> the battery leaks?  (Just as useless!)
> **
> *
> http://us.evupdate.com/fc_tele_evupdatelz/lz.aspx?p1=05440502S538&CC=&
> p=1&cID=0&cValue=1
> *
> **
>
>        To summarise, for charging at home, The 120 V. 15 A. outlet as
> is typical in the American home provides sufficient electrical power
> to recharge an electric car in about five hours to replace that charge
> used in driving up to 40 miles daily   (That is 85% of American
> drivers.)  An investment of thousands of dollars to be able to
> recharge from 240 V. at 50 A. is superfluous.  Even owners of the
> Tesla Sports car who paid $109,000 for the car usually use only a 120
> V. outlet for recharging (70% from owner's survey) because they do
> not, nor does any other member of the majority of electric car users
> feel any cost above $400 is a reasonable value for a dedicated
> electric outlet in their home. Thus the J1772 standard level 2 is
> suitable for public charging stations only because it is being funded
> by "Grants" and is free to the users. Apparently only salesmanship and
> advertising or marketing hype are responsible for installation and use
> of the J1772 standard level 2 for recharging in private garages, carports, or other local charging locations.
>
>     Perhaps a better long term solution is light rail or other medium
> range public transit alternatives for the daily driver who commutes
> more than 40 to 60 miles on a daily basis. In that way, the many
> citizens would be served not just the few served by a series of
> roadside "High Speed" DC charging stations.
> --
> Regards,
> *Dennis Lee Miles*   (Founder)
>  *"**Electric Car Service Shop"*
> *[ the Forgotten Infrastructure is Service! ]*
> *[hidden email] <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/>    *
> (Adviser)* EVTI-EVA Education Chapter*
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> The number of EV on USA roads has doubbled this year.
> But, who is fixing problems for Major Brand Purchassers ?
>  +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
> scrubbed...
> URL:
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20120201/e15a4a4e
> /attachment.html _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



--
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328
http://2003gizmo.blogspot.com

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Isn't 120 V. outlet a sufficient "EVSE" ?

Jukka Järvinen-2
In reply to this post by Roland Wiench
This infra-talk is really interesting. Even here we can see
unnecessary amounts of money shoveled to solve a problem that does not
exist.

Pulling the safety issues to the pile of excuses to sell $4k poles is wrong.

Following pictures are just googled out. Dunno how long the links will work.

This is common sight in here:
http://www.vastavalo.fi/albums/userpics/11816/normal_20100101ARIA03.jpg

Old ones look like this:
http://www.findit.fi/finImg/DSC00355.JPG

New ones like this:
http://yle.fi/ecepic/archive/00366/auton_l_mmitys_l_mp_366241b.jpg

Charging cable for $30:
http://www.clasohlson.fi/Archive/Images/Products/Hi/34-4941.jpg


I checked from the safety officials in here how many deaths or serious
injurys have been recorded regarding these Shuko-sockets at parking
lots. Since 1999: none.

There's only about 1,2 million of these installed in here. Most cars
have the block heater. Safe to say there have been about 2 billion
disconnect-connect actions since 1999. They are usually hot when
handled. At least at the disconnect phase.

How much more safer the new socket or infra has to be ?

Since I'm not going to color out the 'facts' I have to admit that it
is smart to change the socket in EV use once a year. Due high
temperature changes (-35C to +65C) the pole side will get loose and
with 3,6 kW going through it will eventually arch at the contact.
Service would cost maybe $200. Cable serves nicely 2-3 years. Being
ignorant ensures electrical fire. Just like smoking while filling.

To help in this socket issue we programmed BMS to slowly ramp up the
current when the wire indicator was hot. Also contactors and precharge
were used to take the last spak out on primary side capacitors. It was
smart to read the voltage drop and phase changes also on the charger
which indicated problems. Altering the charging power once a while
helped to determine where the problem was.

On the audio Chris Chen (the San Diego Gas & Electric dude) has some
strong opinions. We've seen the range anxiety infra being installed
and after some years taken down. No one used them. They were
vandalized etc. Was not good publicity.

But seriously.. how does the 'hours of waiting' somewhere middle of
nowhere shake off the range anxiety ? This issue has to be solved by
other means.

Maybe some sort of electron act: all shops must give electrons out as
public service (for a set fee.. ). EV user has to be in trouble and
has to prove <5%SOC. After awhile shop keepers see the benefits and
lure in customers with cords hanging out.

Beauty of EV is that it can be plugged everywhere.

-akkuJukka

http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about



2012/2/2 Roland Wiench <[hidden email]>:

> The NEC requires in some installations that a receptacle and plug
> combinations require to be a dead front type.  Meaning if the plug is remove
> while there is a load to it, there is no arc between the pins of the plug
> and receptacle.
>
> Also there is no expose energize receptacle when not in use.  We normally
> have to install this type of receptacle in explosion proof areas where we do
> not want any arcing of contacts.
>
> You can actually get any receptacles that has this feature.  The plug has a
> shorter ground pin then the feeder pins.  When inserted into the receptacle,
> the feeder pins mate first and the ground pin mates last which turns on a
> mechanical switch inside the receptacle which powers the receptacle.
>
> The receptacle is install in a cast alloy explosion proof box.  We use a
> Crouse Hinds receptacle combination that you can get from any electrical
> supply house.  Its been awhile, but I think I paid about $55.00 for a dead
> front 125 V 20 amp receptacle and plug.
>
> For my EV charging, I use a 50 amp twist lock 125/250 volt 4 wire receptacle
> and plug.  No dead front type.  I always for the last 36 years have first
> turn down the charger current, turn off the charger breaker and then unplug
> the main power cable in that order.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dennis Miles" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 8:39 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] Isn't 120 V. outlet a sufficient "EVSE" ?
>
>
>>       Below is a link (it is safe,) to an eight minute audio link you all
>> should listen to. The speaker is from the electric and gas utility in San
>> Diego, California. I believe it brings forth many valid points which are
>> very disturbing about the excessively expensive charging stations we are
>> all wasting our money on when they are simply not needed or necessary for
>> Electric Car use. "WAKE UP AMERICA" We are being ripped off by profiteers
>> and charlatans who are simply out to make a big profit at our expense.
>> Will
>> the next item be a five pound box of "Baking Soda" for $5,000 to sprinkle
>> under your electric car if the battery leaks?  (Just as useless!)
>> **
>> *
>> http://us.evupdate.com/fc_tele_evupdatelz/lz.aspx?p1=05440502S538&CC=&p=1&cID=0&cValue=1
>> *
>> **
>>
>>         To summarise, for charging at home, The 120 V. 15 A. outlet as is
>> typical in the American home provides sufficient electrical power to
>> recharge an electric car in about five hours to replace that charge used
>> in
>> driving up to 40 miles daily   (That is 85% of American drivers.)  An
>> investment of thousands of dollars to be able to recharge from 240 V. at
>> 50
>> A. is superfluous.  Even owners of the Tesla Sports car who paid $109,000
>> for the car usually use only a 120 V. outlet for recharging (70% from
>> owner's survey) because they do not, nor does any other member of the
>> majority of electric car users feel any cost above $400 is a reasonable
>> value for a dedicated electric outlet in their home. Thus the J1772
>> standard level 2 is suitable for public charging stations only because it
>> is being funded by "Grants" and is free to the users. Apparently only
>> salesmanship and advertising or marketing hype are responsible for
>> installation and use of the J1772 standard level 2 for recharging in
>> private garages, carports, or other local charging locations.
>>
>>      Perhaps a better long term solution is light rail or other medium
>> range public transit alternatives for the daily driver who commutes more
>> than 40 to 60 miles on a daily basis. In that way, the many citizens would
>> be served not just the few served by a series of roadside "High Speed" DC
>> charging stations.
>> --
>> Regards,
>> *Dennis Lee Miles*   (Founder)
>>  *"**Electric Car Service Shop"*
>> *[ the Forgotten Infrastructure is Service! ]*
>> *[hidden email] <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/>    *
>> (Adviser)* EVTI-EVA Education Chapter*
>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> The number of EV on USA roads has doubbled this year.
>> But, who is fixing problems for Major Brand Purchassers ?
>>  +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL:
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20120201/e15a4a4e/attachment.html
>> _______________________________________________
>> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
>> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
>> |
>> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
>> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Isn't 120 V. outlet a sufficient "EVSE" ?

Willie2
In reply to this post by David Nelson-5
On Wed, Feb 01, 2012 at 09:44:27PM -0800, David Nelson wrote:
> I think his numbers are optimistic. The current average distance I go
> on 1 hour of charge from 120V 15A is ~6 miles. This is a combination

My 1500watt charger puts about 8amps into my Hyundai; I get somewhat
better than 2ah/mile.  So 4-5 miles per hour of charge time.  Our Leaf
charges at about 5 mph on 120vac and about 12 on 240vac.  I could
easily "get by" on 120vac charging on both cars.  The Hyundai has had
150 mile days but no back to back 150 mile days; I could put in only
about 60 miles in a 12 hour 120vac overnight charging session.  I could
probably contrive to charge a total of about 20 hours per day or ~100
miles @ 120vac.

Thanks, Dennis, for keeping this in our minds; it continuously eats on
me.  So much money and effort completely wasted!  So much much
ignorance propagated.  Amongst new EVers, it is very common to hear the
silly J1772 extension cords referred to as "chargers".

--
Willie, ONWARD!  Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime  7 days 22 hours 02 minutes

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Isn't 120 V. outlet a sufficient "EVSE" ?

brucedp5
In reply to this post by Dennis Miles
In short: Yes

Listen to the audio link Dennis provided, starting at the 6
minute mark of that 7 minute SDE spokesperson rant convoluted with
one-size-fits-all assumptions and with a definite bias of his own.

Having said that and sticking to the post's topic, if you have an
hour, watch
http://youtube.com/watch?v=79ShT3YUVVA
They touch on several relevant points.
One being that a level-1 will give 5 miles back on a highway speed
capable EV.
Another being for some drivers level-1 is all they need.

But for those that drive more than 30 miles round trip each day and
want to charge at home, a level-1 most likely will not suit them.

Which leads me into my own rant:
Dennis post is about level-1 in the U.S.  Which like not being on the
metric system, the U.S. has some archaic notions that must have come
about the same time as the dead-sea scrolls were being written that
the U.S. must use 120VAC for household outlets. Gawd forbid the U.S.
should use what the majority of the world has been using safely,
~220VAC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Weltkarte_der_Netzspannungen_und_Netzfrequenzen.svg

Yes I will admit it, I am envious, and jealous that for the same
wiring and breaker'd circuit, they get twice the power we do.

In the above 1 hour long-winded talk, they mention that the condo
owner only had a 50Amp power panel. It was the current that was the
limiting factor not the voltage. If the condo used 240VAC appliances,
half the amount of current would be drawn through that power panel,
and there would be ample current capacity in that 50Amp panel. But
no, we in the U.S. will have to make do with half the power (dumb).


Why is installing level-2 at home made so difficult, maybe it isn't ...
Jumping to the 4 minute part of this 6 minute video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeH1dX4peLY
It shows that the wall mounted 3kW EVSE is plugged into a 6-20r
outlet. This is a huge improvement over the hard-wired requirement of
EVSE installs in the 1990's. Though it is not said, really what is to
stop an owner from taking that 3kW EVSE off the wall, unplugging
it from the 6-20, and taking on the road with them to adapt to all
the power out and about (friend's dryer outlet, RV park outlets,
etc.).

So what is to stop a condo owner from installing a regular dryer
outlet in their garage instead of EVSE?
If they have the capacity in their panel, getting a dryer outlet
installed would be so much easier and less costly because it is
considered a 'normal' use of power, no permits but there may be an
electrical inspection needed. Here is a how to install one
http://youtube.com/watch?v=oWxS9qoPGaE

With a dryer outlet in the garage, the driver can plug their portable
EVSE into the dryer outlet, get the charge they want, and none is the
wiser.


{brucedp.150m.com}




On Wed, Feb 1, 2012, at 10:39 PM, Dennis Miles wrote:
http://us.evupdate.com/fc_tele_evupdatelz/lz.aspx?p1=05440502S538&CC=&p=1&cID=0&cValue=1
-

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - A fast, anti-spam email service.

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Isn't 120 V. outlet a sufficient "EVSE" ?

Jay Summet
In reply to this post by Dennis Miles
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I think his arguments are reasonable, and 120V is definately "enough"
for the majority of EV drivers to use at home. However, for a public
infrastructure (not at your place of employment), you definitely want
Level 2 or Level 3. (Level 1 at your work is probably also enough for
most sub 20 mile commutes...)

I have been happy using a 120 V outlet to charge every night for my
daily commute for the last year. The only time I really want a 240 volt
outlet is on the weekends, when I may want to make two longer trips, one
in the morning and one in the afternoon. It would be nice to refill in 4
hours instead of 12 hours. [I assume any 240 volt outlet I install would
be 30 amp, so I get the bonus of both voltage and amperage doubling.]

I do have a cord I can run from my dryer outlet (inside) out to the
truck for "power charging" the batteries every month or so before
watering them, or if I really really need to charge quickly, but it
involves navigating the truck around the side of the house and leaving
the back door propped open.

I haven't asked for a quote from an electrician for installing an "RV"
outlet outside my garage because 120v is good enough for me.

Jay
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

iEYEARECAAYFAk8qjBIACgkQSWJjSgPNbM+ApACgg7B6sGWeH8SH4X6T3wg4KqOY
/n4Aniv7K0BqrRIR/2leTnWpWztmzkXP
=XsqU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Isn't 120 V. outlet a sufficient "EVSE" ?

Peri Hartman
In reply to this post by Cor van de Water
I think there are two issues coming out of this:

1. Is 110V 15A (or even 20A) sufficient for overnight charging?
2. Is the level III network build-out worth its cost?

For #1, I'll state my experience.  On a dark, cold, wet day, I run my Leaf
with the heater, defrost, wipers, and lights.  It appears to get about 50
miles per charge (26kwh) under those circumstances.  40 miles of that would
be about 21kwh and would take at least 15 hours to charge at 15A.  For me,
that's inadquate because I won't be able to use the car the next day.  True,
most of the time, I won't need that much kwh.  So, the question is similar
to range anxiety - how much range do you need, or otherwise put, how often
can you do without your car?

For #2, I think the US gov is making a big mistake on putting out the
current set of level III charge stations.  At least here, in Wash. state,
these stations are designed around the Leaf - to give 80% of a 26kwh charge
in 30 minutes.  Well, in my opionion, 30 minutes is already a bit long
unless you are charging at your final destination - work, shopping...  On
top of that, I'm certain that near-future vehicles will take much higher
charge current than the Leaf.  But, here at least, it will still take 30
minutes to charge about 20kwh.  By the time they finish the current
buildout, these stations will be obsolete.  At the very least, the buildout
should have included higher current capacity so that upgrading the stations
would be relatively inexpensive.

Peri

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Cor van de Water
Sent: 01 February, 2012 9:58 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Isn't 120 V. outlet a sufficient "EVSE" ?

David,

Your numbers appear to be wrong also - 120V * 12.25A is 1470W.

His numbers were not necessarily wrong but it is how you read them.
He said approx 5 hours for up to 40 miles.
Most people drive much less for commute, but in an extreme case the 40 miles
should take about 10kWh from the pack.
If you are pulling 120V 15A (which is very well possible as continuous
current from a 20A outlet) then you need 5 1/2 hours to put 10kWh into the
car. Of course there are efficiency losses so it will be a little more, but
the "about 5 hours for up to 40 miles" is not far from truth.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of David Nelson
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 9:44 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Isn't 120 V. outlet a sufficient "EVSE" ?

I think his numbers are optimistic. The current average distance I go on 1
hour of charge from 120V 15A is ~6 miles. This is a combination of hills,
city driving and some at 50mph. Do full size cars actually go ~5 miles on a
1 hour charge from a 120V 15A outlet? If my Kill-a-watt meter is close my
charger is drawing 12.25A and the line voltage is 120.5Vac for ~1035W. Does
the Leaf and other "typical" EVs only consume ~200Wh/mi from the wall? I
find that hard to believe. My average over the last 11,000miles with my
LiFePO4 pack is 172Wh/mi from the wall. This is with a Gizmo which won't go
over ~50mph. After a 40 mile drive it takes 6-7 hours to charge the battery
in my Gizmo.
No way a full sized car can charge in 5 hours after a 40 mile drive when
charging from a 120V 15A outlet if only 80% of its capacity is used.

While I agree with his premise, it does him no good to use inaccurate
numbers or numbers from the battery and not from the wall.

On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 7:39 PM, Dennis Miles <[hidden email]> wrote:

>      Below is a link (it is safe,) to an eight minute audio link you
> all should listen to. The speaker is from the electric and gas utility
> in San Diego, California. I believe it brings forth many valid points
> which are very disturbing about the excessively expensive charging
> stations we are all wasting our money on when they are simply not
> needed or necessary for Electric Car use. "WAKE UP AMERICA" We are
> being ripped off by profiteers and charlatans who are simply out to
> make a big profit at our expense. Will the next item be a five pound
> box of "Baking Soda" for $5,000 to sprinkle under your electric car if
> the battery leaks?  (Just as useless!)
> **
> *
> http://us.evupdate.com/fc_tele_evupdatelz/lz.aspx?p1=05440502S538&CC=&
> p=1&cID=0&cValue=1
> *
> **
>
>        To summarise, for charging at home, The 120 V. 15 A. outlet as
> is typical in the American home provides sufficient electrical power
> to recharge an electric car in about five hours to replace that charge
> used in driving up to 40 miles daily   (That is 85% of American
> drivers.)  An investment of thousands of dollars to be able to
> recharge from 240 V. at 50 A. is superfluous.  Even owners of the
> Tesla Sports car who paid $109,000 for the car usually use only a 120
> V. outlet for recharging (70% from owner's survey) because they do
> not, nor does any other member of the majority of electric car users
> feel any cost above $400 is a reasonable value for a dedicated
> electric outlet in their home. Thus the J1772 standard level 2 is
> suitable for public charging stations only because it is being funded
> by "Grants" and is free to the users. Apparently only salesmanship and
> advertising or marketing hype are responsible for installation and use
> of the J1772 standard level 2 for recharging in private garages, carports,
or other local charging locations.

>
>     Perhaps a better long term solution is light rail or other medium
> range public transit alternatives for the daily driver who commutes
> more than 40 to 60 miles on a daily basis. In that way, the many
> citizens would be served not just the few served by a series of
> roadside "High Speed" DC charging stations.
> --
> Regards,
> *Dennis Lee Miles*   (Founder)
>  *"**Electric Car Service Shop"*
> *[ the Forgotten Infrastructure is Service! ]*
> *[hidden email] <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/>    *
> (Adviser)* EVTI-EVA Education Chapter*
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> The number of EV on USA roads has doubbled this year.
> But, who is fixing problems for Major Brand Purchassers ?
>  +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
> scrubbed...
> URL:
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20120201/e15a4a4e
> /attachment.html _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



--
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328
http://2003gizmo.blogspot.com

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev




_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Isn't 120 V. outlet a sufficient "EVSE" ?

valerun
In reply to this post by Dennis Miles
well we build 10kW chargers for DIY converters.

Here is what our customers tell us. Yes, everyone understands that 90% of the time, 120V is sufficient for recharge after a typical daily drive. However,

1. A lot of people want to avoid that 'secondary range anxiety' effect when you don't know when you will need a car next and at 120V you might have to wait for a while.

2. During the weekend days, many of our customers report recharging several times. having a 30-40mph recharge capability allows them to use their electric car not only as a commuter vehicle but as an all-purpose car.

3. ALL US homes and ALL European homes have 240V service. Majority of US homes and ALL European homes have 240V *outlets* - our customers just tap into those. Total additional cost = $0

For the production EVs, I frankly don't see how one can prevent someone hacking together a $100 EVSE and selling it to willing owners with all the appropriate caveats (not UL listed, at your own risk, etc, etc.)

Valery
http://www.eMotorWerks.com
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Isn't 120 V. outlet a sufficient "EVSE" ?

Lensman
In reply to this post by brucedp5
On 2/2/2012 5:24 AM, Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:

> Why is installing level-2 at home made so difficult, maybe it isn't ...
> Jumping to the 4 minute part of this 6 minute video
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeH1dX4peLY
> It shows that the wall mounted 3kW EVSE is plugged into a 6-20r
> outlet. This is a huge improvement over the hard-wired requirement of
> EVSE installs in the 1990's. Though it is not said, really what is to
> stop an owner from taking that 3kW EVSE off the wall, unplugging
> it from the 6-20, and taking on the road with them to adapt to all
> the power out and about (friend's dryer outlet, RV park outlets,
> etc.).
>
> So what is to stop a condo owner from installing a regular dryer
> outlet in their garage instead of EVSE?
> If they have the capacity in their panel, getting a dryer outlet
> installed would be so much easier and less costly because it is
> considered a 'normal' use of power, no permits but there may be an
> electrical inspection needed. Here is a how to install one
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=oWxS9qoPGaE
>
> With a dryer outlet in the garage, the driver can plug their portable
> EVSE into the dryer outlet, get the charge they want, and none is the
> wiser.

That may be fine if the power panel is rated for as much as the EV
charger wants to draw.  But if it's not, then there will be a safety
issue.  I'm no electrician, but I presume that's why it's said that you
should have a trained electrician install your EV charging unit.

And, Bruce, I'm glad you pointed out the one-size-fits-all fallacy.
Just because someone driving, say, a G-Wiz or a ZENN 40 miles in a day
(at 25 MPH or less) can get along on a Level 1 charge (120V), doesn't
mean a Leaf or a Volt driver who drives 40 miles per day, mostly at
highway speed, can get along on a Level 1 charge.

Some EV owners really do need a Level 2 charger.  Some EVs weigh more
and take more power to push them down the road.  Especially if they're
being pushed at highway speed, where half or more of the energy goes
just to fight wind resistance.  A low-speed NEV doesn't have that
problem, and doesn't need nearly as much energy to drive the same
distance.  A microcar driving at highway speed doesn't need as much
energy as a 4-door sedan, either.

That's not to say that the thousands of dollars some are being charged
for installing a Level 2 charger is justified.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lensman

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Isn't 120 V. outlet a sufficient "EVSE" ?

Lensman
In reply to this post by Peri Hartman
On 2/2/2012 9:25 AM, Peri Hartman wrote:

> I think there are two issues coming out of this:
>
> 1. Is 110V 15A (or even 20A) sufficient for overnight charging?
> 2. Is the level III network build-out worth its cost?
>
> For #1, I'll state my experience.  On a dark, cold, wet day, I run my Leaf
> with the heater, defrost, wipers, and lights.  It appears to get about 50
> miles per charge (26kwh) under those circumstances.  40 miles of that would
> be about 21kwh and would take at least 15 hours to charge at 15A.  For me,
> that's inadquate because I won't be able to use the car the next day.  True,
> most of the time, I won't need that much kwh.  So, the question is similar
> to range anxiety - how much range do you need, or otherwise put, how often
> can you do without your car?
>
> For #2, I think the US gov is making a big mistake on putting out the
> current set of level III charge stations.  At least here, in Wash. state,
> these stations are designed around the Leaf - to give 80% of a 26kwh charge
> in 30 minutes.  Well, in my opionion, 30 minutes is already a bit long
> unless you are charging at your final destination - work, shopping...  On
> top of that, I'm certain that near-future vehicles will take much higher
> charge current than the Leaf.  But, here at least, it will still take 30
> minutes to charge about 20kwh.  By the time they finish the current
> buildout, these stations will be obsolete.  At the very least, the buildout
> should have included higher current capacity so that upgrading the stations
> would be relatively inexpensive.

Certainly roadside charge stations should be designed to be upgraded,
but how much upgrading is practical?  Looking into the future,
competition will drive EV manufacturers to build EVs which can receive a
150 kWh in 5 minutes, or less.  (Go ahead and laugh if you like;
batteries using a chemical reaction to generate current are not the last
word in storage of electrical power.)  This will require high voltage
power lines run directly to the charging station.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lensman

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Isn't 120 V. outlet a sufficient "EVSE" ?

Jukka Järvinen-2
In reply to this post by Peri Hartman
I'd say it's more likely that the capacity of the pack will get higher
in near future. 200 mile range will be standard soon. ( I mean just as
soon as last time I said soon. Was it 2002 ? :P  )

Anyway. Charging 40-50 kWh with 15A will be just p-a-i-n-f-u-l-l-y s-l-o-w

I think people would be better off if there would be slow charging
opportunities all over for free. At shops, work place, home, friends
house, etc. Mostly cars sit at the parking place.

Anything more would be overkill and unnecessary.

If someone needs continuously +200 miles per day... bite that PHEV cookie.

-akkuJukka

http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about



2012/2/2 Peri Hartman <[hidden email]>:

> I think there are two issues coming out of this:
>
> 1. Is 110V 15A (or even 20A) sufficient for overnight charging?
> 2. Is the level III network build-out worth its cost?
>
> For #1, I'll state my experience.  On a dark, cold, wet day, I run my Leaf
> with the heater, defrost, wipers, and lights.  It appears to get about 50
> miles per charge (26kwh) under those circumstances.  40 miles of that would
> be about 21kwh and would take at least 15 hours to charge at 15A.  For me,
> that's inadquate because I won't be able to use the car the next day.  True,
> most of the time, I won't need that much kwh.  So, the question is similar
> to range anxiety - how much range do you need, or otherwise put, how often
> can you do without your car?
>
> For #2, I think the US gov is making a big mistake on putting out the
> current set of level III charge stations.  At least here, in Wash. state,
> these stations are designed around the Leaf - to give 80% of a 26kwh charge
> in 30 minutes.  Well, in my opionion, 30 minutes is already a bit long
> unless you are charging at your final destination - work, shopping...  On
> top of that, I'm certain that near-future vehicles will take much higher
> charge current than the Leaf.  But, here at least, it will still take 30
> minutes to charge about 20kwh.  By the time they finish the current
> buildout, these stations will be obsolete.  At the very least, the buildout
> should have included higher current capacity so that upgrading the stations
> would be relatively inexpensive.
>
> Peri
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
> Of Cor van de Water
> Sent: 01 February, 2012 9:58 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Isn't 120 V. outlet a sufficient "EVSE" ?
>
> David,
>
> Your numbers appear to be wrong also - 120V * 12.25A is 1470W.
>
> His numbers were not necessarily wrong but it is how you read them.
> He said approx 5 hours for up to 40 miles.
> Most people drive much less for commute, but in an extreme case the 40 miles
> should take about 10kWh from the pack.
> If you are pulling 120V 15A (which is very well possible as continuous
> current from a 20A outlet) then you need 5 1/2 hours to put 10kWh into the
> car. Of course there are efficiency losses so it will be a little more, but
> the "about 5 hours for up to 40 miles" is not far from truth.
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [hidden email]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water     XoIP: +31877841130
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626        Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
> Of David Nelson
> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 9:44 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Isn't 120 V. outlet a sufficient "EVSE" ?
>
> I think his numbers are optimistic. The current average distance I go on 1
> hour of charge from 120V 15A is ~6 miles. This is a combination of hills,
> city driving and some at 50mph. Do full size cars actually go ~5 miles on a
> 1 hour charge from a 120V 15A outlet? If my Kill-a-watt meter is close my
> charger is drawing 12.25A and the line voltage is 120.5Vac for ~1035W. Does
> the Leaf and other "typical" EVs only consume ~200Wh/mi from the wall? I
> find that hard to believe. My average over the last 11,000miles with my
> LiFePO4 pack is 172Wh/mi from the wall. This is with a Gizmo which won't go
> over ~50mph. After a 40 mile drive it takes 6-7 hours to charge the battery
> in my Gizmo.
> No way a full sized car can charge in 5 hours after a 40 mile drive when
> charging from a 120V 15A outlet if only 80% of its capacity is used.
>
> While I agree with his premise, it does him no good to use inaccurate
> numbers or numbers from the battery and not from the wall.
>
> On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 7:39 PM, Dennis Miles <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>      Below is a link (it is safe,) to an eight minute audio link you
>> all should listen to. The speaker is from the electric and gas utility
>> in San Diego, California. I believe it brings forth many valid points
>> which are very disturbing about the excessively expensive charging
>> stations we are all wasting our money on when they are simply not
>> needed or necessary for Electric Car use. "WAKE UP AMERICA" We are
>> being ripped off by profiteers and charlatans who are simply out to
>> make a big profit at our expense. Will the next item be a five pound
>> box of "Baking Soda" for $5,000 to sprinkle under your electric car if
>> the battery leaks?  (Just as useless!)
>> **
>> *
>> http://us.evupdate.com/fc_tele_evupdatelz/lz.aspx?p1=05440502S538&CC=&
>> p=1&cID=0&cValue=1
>> *
>> **
>>
>>        To summarise, for charging at home, The 120 V. 15 A. outlet as
>> is typical in the American home provides sufficient electrical power
>> to recharge an electric car in about five hours to replace that charge
>> used in driving up to 40 miles daily   (That is 85% of American
>> drivers.)  An investment of thousands of dollars to be able to
>> recharge from 240 V. at 50 A. is superfluous.  Even owners of the
>> Tesla Sports car who paid $109,000 for the car usually use only a 120
>> V. outlet for recharging (70% from owner's survey) because they do
>> not, nor does any other member of the majority of electric car users
>> feel any cost above $400 is a reasonable value for a dedicated
>> electric outlet in their home. Thus the J1772 standard level 2 is
>> suitable for public charging stations only because it is being funded
>> by "Grants" and is free to the users. Apparently only salesmanship and
>> advertising or marketing hype are responsible for installation and use
>> of the J1772 standard level 2 for recharging in private garages, carports,
> or other local charging locations.
>>
>>     Perhaps a better long term solution is light rail or other medium
>> range public transit alternatives for the daily driver who commutes
>> more than 40 to 60 miles on a daily basis. In that way, the many
>> citizens would be served not just the few served by a series of
>> roadside "High Speed" DC charging stations.
>> --
>> Regards,
>> *Dennis Lee Miles*   (Founder)
>>  *"**Electric Car Service Shop"*
>> *[ the Forgotten Infrastructure is Service! ]*
>> *[hidden email] <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/>    *
>> (Adviser)* EVTI-EVA Education Chapter*
>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> The number of EV on USA roads has doubbled this year.
>> But, who is fixing problems for Major Brand Purchassers ?
>>  +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
>> scrubbed...
>> URL:
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20120201/e15a4a4e
>> /attachment.html _______________________________________________
>> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
>> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
>> |
>> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
>> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>
> --
> David D. Nelson
> http://evalbum.com/1328
> http://2003gizmo.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Isn't 120 V. outlet a sufficient "EVSE" ?

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by Roland Wiench
Roland Wiench wrote:
> The NEC requires a dead front type receptacle and plug in some
> installations... If the plug is removed while there is a load to it,
> there is no arc between the pins of the plug and receptacle... no
> exposed energized receptacle when not in use...
>
> You can actually get any receptacles that has this feature.  The plug
> has a shorter ground pin then the feeder pins.

Since a longer ground pin is normal, wouldn't this mean plugging in a
standard plug would defeat this safety feature? I've never seen a plug
with a short ground pin, or a receptacle with this feature.

But I have seen receptacles with a switch that is activated by the
ground pin. The plug is standard. It must be inserted all the way to
press the switch. The switch is then wired to a contactor that only
connects power when the plug is fully inserted. Could this be the kind
you are thinking of?

--
Humanity is acquiring all the right technology for all the wrong reasons.
        -- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at earthlink.net

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Isn't 120 V. outlet a sufficient "EVSE" ?

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by David Nelson-5
On 2/1/2012 11:44 PM, David Nelson wrote:
> Do full size cars actually go ~5 miles on a 1 hour charge from a
> 120V 15A outlet?

120v x 15a = 1800 watts maximum. At 80% efficiency, that's up to 1440 watts.

A heavy EV conversion of a standard car might use 300 wh/mile. Each hour
of charging at 1440 watts would therefore get you 1440/300 or about 5 miles.

But, a lightweight purpose-built EV like the GM EV1 or Solectria Sunrise
uses about half the power per mile. They can go more like 10 miles per
hour of charging from a standard 120vac 15amp outlet.

--
Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls
and looks like work. -- Thomas A. Edison
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at earthlink.net

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Isn't 120 V. outlet a sufficient "EVSE" ?

Lee Hart
In reply to this post by Jay Summet
On 2/2/2012 7:13 AM, Jay Summet wrote:
> I think his arguments are reasonable, and 120V is definately "enough"
> for the majority of EV drivers to use at home. However, for a public
> infrastructure (not at your place of employment), you definitely want
> Level 2 or Level 3. (Level 1 at your work is probably also enough for
> most sub 20 mile commutes...)

Right on target, Jay! I think the whole "EV charging infrastructure" is
a tempest in a teapot. It's promoted by EV opponents: "The
infrastructure is too expensive, so EVs aren't practical". Or, by those
who hope to get rich quick: "I've invented the new gas pump, so everyone
has to pay me to charge their EV, bwoo ha ha hah!"

120v level-1 charging is fine for the vast majority of EV use. The
vehicle sits unused all night at home, when it can be recharged cheaply
on off-peak power and no new wiring. At work, it sits in the parking lot
for 8 hours, again allowing ample time for charging.

"Fast" level-2 or -3 charging is only needed for special situations. A
long-distance commuter with one of the rare EVs that is literally being
driven over 100 miles a day. Or, for occasional special trips.

As an example: A person charges his EV every day at home. But then he
need to make a special trip just after he got home with a mostly
discharged pack. So he goes to a place that has a "fast" charger for a
quick recharge. He only does this maybe once a month, so it's not worth
the cost of installing a level 2 charger at home.

--
An engineer can do for a nickel what any damn fool can do for a dollar.
        -- Henry Ford
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at earthlink.net

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Isn't 120 V. outlet a sufficient "EVSE" ?

Lensman
In reply to this post by Jukka Järvinen-2
On 2/2/2012 1:49 PM, Jukka Järvinen wrote:
> I'd say it's more likely that the capacity of the pack will get higher
> in near future. 200 mile range will be standard soon. ( I mean just as
> soon as last time I said soon. Was it 2002 ? :P  )

Looks like Nissan and Tesla Motors, if not other EV makers, will start
using NMC (lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt oxide) batteries in their
cars in 2015, which should give about a 75% boost to range.  Or maybe
100%, if use of such batteries allows greater depth of discharge, as I
think one article claimed.  Supposedly at no greater cost, but we'll see.

http://www.treehugger.com/cars/nissan-working-on-new-battery-to-double-the-leafs-range-by-2015.html

> I think people would be better off if there would be slow charging
> opportunities all over for free. At shops, work place, home, friends
> house, etc. Mostly cars sit at the parking place.

As EVs become commonplace, charge points at places cars are frequently
parked will become commonplace.  Charge points at public parking places
and parking lots shouldn't be thought of as an expense, but rather as a
business opportunity.

That doesn't solve the problem of driving your EV on a vacation, or a
trip to Grandma's house.  Sure, there are other solutions; PHEVs, or
renting a gas guzzler for the trip.  But convenience is worth paying
for, and having to rent a car for a trip is an inconvenience.  Having an
EV that's capable of being charged quickly-- and by "quickly" I mean
5-10 minutes, not 1/2 an hour-- at a fast-charge station beside the
highway is a convenience worth paying for.

Note the owner of the commercial fast-charge station is just as
interested in giving the EV owner a fast charge. The faster one customer
is charged up, the faster he can free up that charge point for another
customer to use.  The station owner may want to give you time to come
into the store and buy a soda and a bag of chips.  But if it takes
longer than that to charge your car, he's losing money.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lensman

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Isn't 120 V. outlet a sufficient "EVSE" ?

Jukka Järvinen-2
We will have low cycle, low efficiency but very high capacity cells in
EVs for additional 200-300 miles. That's addition to the high cycle
medium capacity cells.

If that's not enough (400-500 miles driving in one day) we can still
add some primary cells for another 200 miles.

If someone comes over and tells me that's not enough (600-700
mi/day).... I'll put 20kV 150kW charger in the trunk and wave good
bye.

So what I'm saying is there will be combination of reliable and cheap
technologies available for EVs. It's all in the right mix.

-akkuJukka

http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about



2012/2/2 Lensman <[hidden email]>:

> On 2/2/2012 1:49 PM, Jukka Järvinen wrote:
>> I'd say it's more likely that the capacity of the pack will get higher
>> in near future. 200 mile range will be standard soon. ( I mean just as
>> soon as last time I said soon. Was it 2002 ? :P  )
>
> Looks like Nissan and Tesla Motors, if not other EV makers, will start
> using NMC (lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt oxide) batteries in their
> cars in 2015, which should give about a 75% boost to range.  Or maybe
> 100%, if use of such batteries allows greater depth of discharge, as I
> think one article claimed.  Supposedly at no greater cost, but we'll see.
>
> http://www.treehugger.com/cars/nissan-working-on-new-battery-to-double-the-leafs-range-by-2015.html
>
>> I think people would be better off if there would be slow charging
>> opportunities all over for free. At shops, work place, home, friends
>> house, etc. Mostly cars sit at the parking place.
>
> As EVs become commonplace, charge points at places cars are frequently
> parked will become commonplace.  Charge points at public parking places
> and parking lots shouldn't be thought of as an expense, but rather as a
> business opportunity.
>
> That doesn't solve the problem of driving your EV on a vacation, or a
> trip to Grandma's house.  Sure, there are other solutions; PHEVs, or
> renting a gas guzzler for the trip.  But convenience is worth paying
> for, and having to rent a car for a trip is an inconvenience.  Having an
> EV that's capable of being charged quickly-- and by "quickly" I mean
> 5-10 minutes, not 1/2 an hour-- at a fast-charge station beside the
> highway is a convenience worth paying for.
>
> Note the owner of the commercial fast-charge station is just as
> interested in giving the EV owner a fast charge. The faster one customer
> is charged up, the faster he can free up that charge point for another
> customer to use.  The station owner may want to give you time to come
> into the store and buy a soda and a bag of chips.  But if it takes
> longer than that to charge your car, he's losing money.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Lensman
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
1234