KickStarter Battery Proposal was - Milestone

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KickStarter Battery Proposal was - Milestone

Rush Dougherty
David - what a great idea. I've sponsored several kickstarter projects,
www.kickstarter.com, and all of them have been very successful.

I know if 'somebody' started a Battery Testing Proposal, I would give $25
towards the costs.  We could even make part of the proposal a BMS testing
system.

Does anybody want to step up to the plate and write a proposal? Will anybody
'volunteer' as the battery tester. I certainly don't have the knowledge or
equipment, otherwise I would. I'm sure it will take a large portion of
somebodies, or many peoples time. But I would think that the return, an
'open source' knowledge of batteries, would be invaluable to us.

Rush
www.TucsonEV.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of EVDL Administrator
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 2:45 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Milestone
>
> On 6 Sep 2012 at 15:28, Lee Hart wrote:
>
> > Everyone wants the data; but no one wants to pay for it.
>
> I wonder if something like this could be "crowdsourced."
>
> I'm just musing here, and maybe someone more familiar with the process
> can take this idea and flesh it out.  (Or nuke it, if it's impossible or
> impractical.)
>
> Could we get Kickstarter to accept a proposal to fund something like this?
>
> Would we be allowed (or required!) to release the results as "open
source,"
> or would they have to remain proprietary among those who contributed to
> the project?
>
> I'm still idealistic enough to be sympathetic with the open source idea,
and I
> hope there are others who agree with me.  I'd be willing to throw a few
> bucks into the hat to make the data publicly available, as long as a
> reasonable number of others did the same.  (Remember when a bunch of us
> kicked in to buy batteries for Lee's BEST kids?)
>
> If a Kickstarter campaign, or even a Paypal or Amazon donation process,
> could be used to fund LiFePO4 cell testing, we could publicize it here and
on

> the other EV resources on the net (DIY EV, NEDRA, and so on). We have over
> 1800 members on the EVDL and I'd guess that perhaps 5-10% of them are
> regular, active posters, so ... maybe we could get together 50 or so
> contributors?  Maybe another 20-30 from other places on the net?  Does
> anyone have a better guess?
>
> Lee, you have the hardware, though I don't know if you have the time.  If
> you do, how much would it cost for each cell type, over and above the cost
> of the samples, to commission you to carry out these tests?
>
> As you can tell, this is a fairly nebulous idea for me, but maybe someone
> with more knowledge of this process can suggest how it might work.  If we
> can get far enough down that road to really look closely into the idea,
then
> maybe we can ask for suggestions of a short list of cells to test - but
I'm

> getting ahead of myself now.
>
> David Roden
> EVDL Administrator
> http://www.evdl.org/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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>
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> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5252 - Release Date: 09/06/12


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Re: KickStarter Battery Proposal was - Milestone

Martin WINLOW
I'd be in for $25 - shame we couldn't do the same for motors, too.  

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk


On 7 Sep 2012, at 01:39, Rush Dougherty wrote:

> David - what a great idea. I've sponsored several kickstarter projects,
> www.kickstarter.com, and all of them have been very successful.
>
> I know if 'somebody' started a Battery Testing Proposal, I would give $25
> towards the costs.  We could even make part of the proposal a BMS testing
> system.
>
> Does anybody want to step up to the plate and write a proposal? Will anybody
> 'volunteer' as the battery tester. I certainly don't have the knowledge or
> equipment, otherwise I would. I'm sure it will take a large portion of
> somebodies, or many peoples time. But I would think that the return, an
> 'open source' knowledge of batteries, would be invaluable to us.
>
> Rush
> www.TucsonEV.com
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
>> Behalf Of EVDL Administrator
>> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 2:45 PM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Milestone
>>
>> On 6 Sep 2012 at 15:28, Lee Hart wrote:
>>
>>> Everyone wants the data; but no one wants to pay for it.
>>
>> I wonder if something like this could be "crowdsourced."
>>
>> I'm just musing here, and maybe someone more familiar with the process
>> can take this idea and flesh it out.  (Or nuke it, if it's impossible or
>> impractical.)
>>
>> Could we get Kickstarter to accept a proposal to fund something like this?
>>
>> Would we be allowed (or required!) to release the results as "open
> source,"
>> or would they have to remain proprietary among those who contributed to
>> the project?
>>
>> I'm still idealistic enough to be sympathetic with the open source idea,
> and I
>> hope there are others who agree with me.  I'd be willing to throw a few
>> bucks into the hat to make the data publicly available, as long as a
>> reasonable number of others did the same.  (Remember when a bunch of us
>> kicked in to buy batteries for Lee's BEST kids?)
>>
>> If a Kickstarter campaign, or even a Paypal or Amazon donation process,
>> could be used to fund LiFePO4 cell testing, we could publicize it here and
> on
>> the other EV resources on the net (DIY EV, NEDRA, and so on). We have over
>> 1800 members on the EVDL and I'd guess that perhaps 5-10% of them are
>> regular, active posters, so ... maybe we could get together 50 or so
>> contributors?  Maybe another 20-30 from other places on the net?  Does
>> anyone have a better guess?
>>
>> Lee, you have the hardware, though I don't know if you have the time.  If
>> you do, how much would it cost for each cell type, over and above the cost
>> of the samples, to commission you to carry out these tests?
>>
>> As you can tell, this is a fairly nebulous idea for me, but maybe someone
>> with more knowledge of this process can suggest how it might work.  If we
>> can get far enough down that road to really look closely into the idea,
> then
>> maybe we can ask for suggestions of a short list of cells to test - but
> I'm
>> getting ahead of myself now.
>>
>> David Roden
>>





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Re: KickStarter Battery Proposal was - Milestone

Jukka Järvinen-3
In reply to this post by Rush Dougherty
Well.. Kickstart is only for US residents.

I did this thingy sometime ago but was not able to submit it. Tried it
again yesterday.. no luck.

-akuJukka

p.s.- It was still a draft..

****
Project title: Battery verificator


Project story:

To test battery cells in right way is not that tricky. It just takes
time and resources.Tests have to be made in consistent way so all
results are comparable.

This is the main issue at the moment: We have no independent open
source based testing service.

Battery verificator will allow everyone to follow realtime how and
what tests are performed. An automated system which can be programmed
online.

When the test starts (say cycle test) we'll make sure it'll run
through the whole test. Lifetime test can take up to 2 years. During
that long time many things can go wrong.

We'll do the mechanical work in our lab and make sure all goes as planned.

On the site we'll vote which cells will be tested and how. Then we
execute the tests publicly. No more fuzz about colored data or
misleading 'too-good-to-be-true' datasheets.

At 1st stage we'll concentrate on the electrical performance of the
cells. If the project is successfully kickstarted we'll add projects
to do mechanical testing and video streaming. Online penetration test,
G-shock test or anything else our community members wish to test.

All results will be stored on the site with graphs for anyone to
download and view.

yes. Sorry. I forgot to tell who am I. My nickname is akkuJukka. My
real name is Jukka Järvinen. For some reason I got name which creates
nice palindromic ring to my background. 'akku' is in finnish 'a
battery' . akkuJukka goes both ways and introduces me quite
accurately.

I've founded few companies in the past in the electric vehicle and
battery industry. Sold even some away already with nice return of
investment.

Since 2001 I've been playing with Lithium cells. I upgraded my 1st EV
with Lithium in 2002 and developed a new way to manage batteries in
series and patented it. It was all done because I wanted to understand
how the batteries work and behave.

10 years ago there was not that many sources to get large cells for
your EV. Now it has changed.

Cells are available from so many sources that no one knows anymore
which is what. Chemistries vary. Mechanics vary. Prices vary. Data is
formatted to look better. And in the middle is the EV or other
equipment builder who is already feeling light on the head from all
the 'info' available.

Before sending your money to overseas let's verify what you're buying.

I would like to offer my knowledge through the new service and
equipment to make sure you got the best.

*****



http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about


2012/9/7 Rush Dougherty <[hidden email]>:

> David - what a great idea. I've sponsored several kickstarter projects,
> www.kickstarter.com, and all of them have been very successful.
>
> I know if 'somebody' started a Battery Testing Proposal, I would give $25
> towards the costs.  We could even make part of the proposal a BMS testing
> system.
>
> Does anybody want to step up to the plate and write a proposal? Will anybody
> 'volunteer' as the battery tester. I certainly don't have the knowledge or
> equipment, otherwise I would. I'm sure it will take a large portion of
> somebodies, or many peoples time. But I would think that the return, an
> 'open source' knowledge of batteries, would be invaluable to us.
>
> Rush
> www.TucsonEV.com
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
>> Behalf Of EVDL Administrator
>> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 2:45 PM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Milestone
>>
>> On 6 Sep 2012 at 15:28, Lee Hart wrote:
>>
>> > Everyone wants the data; but no one wants to pay for it.
>>
>> I wonder if something like this could be "crowdsourced."
>>
>> I'm just musing here, and maybe someone more familiar with the process
>> can take this idea and flesh it out.  (Or nuke it, if it's impossible or
>> impractical.)
>>
>> Could we get Kickstarter to accept a proposal to fund something like this?
>>
>> Would we be allowed (or required!) to release the results as "open
> source,"
>> or would they have to remain proprietary among those who contributed to
>> the project?
>>
>> I'm still idealistic enough to be sympathetic with the open source idea,
> and I
>> hope there are others who agree with me.  I'd be willing to throw a few
>> bucks into the hat to make the data publicly available, as long as a
>> reasonable number of others did the same.  (Remember when a bunch of us
>> kicked in to buy batteries for Lee's BEST kids?)
>>
>> If a Kickstarter campaign, or even a Paypal or Amazon donation process,
>> could be used to fund LiFePO4 cell testing, we could publicize it here and
> on
>> the other EV resources on the net (DIY EV, NEDRA, and so on). We have over
>> 1800 members on the EVDL and I'd guess that perhaps 5-10% of them are
>> regular, active posters, so ... maybe we could get together 50 or so
>> contributors?  Maybe another 20-30 from other places on the net?  Does
>> anyone have a better guess?
>>
>> Lee, you have the hardware, though I don't know if you have the time.  If
>> you do, how much would it cost for each cell type, over and above the cost
>> of the samples, to commission you to carry out these tests?
>>
>> As you can tell, this is a fairly nebulous idea for me, but maybe someone
>> with more knowledge of this process can suggest how it might work.  If we
>> can get far enough down that road to really look closely into the idea,
> then
>> maybe we can ask for suggestions of a short list of cells to test - but
> I'm
>> getting ahead of myself now.
>>
>> David Roden
>> EVDL Administrator
>> http://www.evdl.org/
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
>> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
>> |
>> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
>> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>> -----
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5252 - Release Date: 09/06/12
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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| Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
|
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Re: KickStarter Battery Proposal was - Milestone

Doug Weathers

On Sep 7, 2012, at 4:26 AM, Jukka Järvinen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Well.. Kickstart is only for US residents.

Have you looked at Indiegogo?

It's another crowdfunding site that appears to allow non-US projects.

http://www.indiegogo.com/learn/faqs

I learned about them because there's an Indiegogo project to fund a Tesla museum at the site of his Wardenclyffe  lab.

--
Doug Weathers
http://www.gdunge.com
Dedicated to the creation of a spacefaring civilization


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|
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Re: KickStarter Battery Proposal was - Milestone

Jukka Järvinen-3
I did put it in Indiegogo now. It'll take few days to be active.

This is what I put up there:

***********
To test battery cells in right way is not that tricky. It just takes
time and resources.Tests have to be made in consistent way so all
results are comparable.

This is the main issue at the moment:

We have no independent open source based testing service.

Battery Verificator will allow everyone to follow realtime how and
what tests are performed. An automated system which can be programmed
online.

When the test starts (say cycle test) we'll make sure it'll run
through the whole test. Lifetime test can take up to 2 years. During
that long time many things can go wrong.

We'll do the mechanical work in our lab and make sure all goes as planned.

On the site we'll vote which cells will be tested and how. Then we
execute the tests publicly. No more fuzz about colored data or
misleading 'too-good-to-be-true' datasheets.

At 1st stage we'll concentrate only on the electrical performance of the cells.

If the project is successfully funded we'll add projects to do
mechanical testing and video streaming. Online penetration test,
G-shock test or anything else our community members wish to test.

All results will be stored on the site with graphs for anyone to
download and view.

I almost forgot to tell who am I. My nickname is akkuJukka. My real
name is Jukka Järvinen. For some reason I got name which creates nice
palindromic ring to my background. 'akku' is in finnish 'a battery' .
akkuJukka goes both ways and introduces me quite accurately.

I've founded few companies in the past in the electric vehicle and
battery industry. Sold even some away with nice return of investment.
So I've decided to stay in the field.

Since 2001 I've been playing with Lithium cells. I upgraded my 1st EV
with Lithium in 2002 and developed a new way to manage batteries in
series and patented it. I wanted to understand how the batteries work
and behave so my electric car could operate better and longer.

10 years ago there was not that many sources to get large cells for
your EV. Now it has changed.

Cells are available from so many sources that no one knows anymore
which is what. Chemistries vary. Mechanics vary. Prices vary. Data is
formatted to look better. And in the middle is the EV or other
equipment builder who is already feeling light on the head from all
the 'info' available.

Before sending your money to overseas let's verify what you're buying.

I would like to offer my knowledge through the new service and
equipment to make sure you'll get the best.

With the money raised I'll build testing stations, upkeep and run them
for 3 years. More funds is raised more test stations will be made. One
station will cost about $2500. The server and other equipment will
cost about another $2500. Website and server SW will be purchased with
about $1500. Energy and room rent will be few hundred for this 3 year
time.

**********

I was not sure how the rewarding should be done but I suspect people
wish to get results more than anything. So I'll propose somethin glike
this:

$25
unlimited access
You'll get access to the databases and the raw data. You'll be able to
suggest tests and cells to be tested.
0 Claimed

$150
Free testing on any cell
I'll get the cell and test is for you. Test time limited to 30 days.
We'll plan the test together. Single cell deliveries to Finland may
take some time.
0 out of 10 Claimed

$1,500
Your own testing station
You''l get your own testing station. Any cell you wish to test and how
ever you wish to have it tested (in the regim of the testing station
capabilities). I'll do it. This station is reserved for you for the 3
year period. If idle it can be used to do other short term tests.
0 out of 10 Claimed

*****************
Now its time to comment. I think there might be even some
manufacturers who are interested on something like this.

I'll make short video on the topic and put it up there.

I think there are plenty grammar errors on my draft. Please point them
out so we might get non-EVDL people interested on it too.

Later.. I think we could go and do even some unofficial crash testing
with vehicles. We all are interested how our EV's will survive in such
situation. We've had nice debates on forums about battery pack
locations and so on.

-Jukka

http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about


2012/9/7 Doug Weathers <[hidden email]>:

>
> On Sep 7, 2012, at 4:26 AM, Jukka Järvinen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Well.. Kickstart is only for US residents.
>
> Have you looked at Indiegogo?
>
> It's another crowdfunding site that appears to allow non-US projects.
>
> http://www.indiegogo.com/learn/faqs
>
> I learned about them because there's an Indiegogo project to fund a Tesla museum at the site of his Wardenclyffe  lab.
>
> --
> Doug Weathers
> http://www.gdunge.com
> Dedicated to the creation of a spacefaring civilization
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere.  Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
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Re: KickStarter Battery Proposal was - Milestone

Cliff
<I have the Indiegogo set up for the OS battery testing. Was it so bad
idea that no one has anything to say about it ? :D>

Jukka,

On the contrary, I think it is a very interesting idea. I hope you will post
a link to the Indiegogo when it is active.

Cliff
www.ProEV.com


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