Leaf module charging recommendations

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Leaf module charging recommendations

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Thanks to Jerry Dycus for selling me a great looking clean Volt battery module. My still-working Radio Shack (top of the line) digital multimeter tells me all the cells are within 0.01 at 3.56 or 3.57 volts.
I've found this useful bit of data:
Number of cells        36
Construction            12 in-series x 3 in parallel
Length                      9.5"
Width                        9.5"
Height                      10.5
Weight                     45 lbs
Output terminal        M6 nut
Amp Hour                47
Total Voltage           48vdc

 

CELL SPECIFICATIONS
Cell type                        Laminate type
Cathode material           LiMn2O4 with LiNiO2
Anode material              Graphite
Rated capacity (0.3C)   17 Ah
Average voltage            3.8 VDC
Maximum Voltage         4.2VDC
Minimum Voltage          3.0VDC
I measured 42.5vdc across each 12 cell block and the math says it should be 42.72vdc, which is close enough for my meter. It's not 48vdc and from an earlier discussion I expected that to be the case.
When it comes to charging this battery, I would like to ensure to get the right stuff. My experience with other lithium based batteries is that the nominal voltage of the charger is referenced to the battery and in all cases, the battery voltage is higher than the nominal voltage "listed." That is to say, a 36v battery charges to 42vdc and rarely drops to the 36v reference figure in regular use. The charger, of course, pushes electrons into the battery at those higher levels.
In the case of the Volt battery, I believe I would not want to use an off-the-shelf charger rated for a 48v battery. My search results have all been ending in devices with excessive top-end termination.

I would like to have an off-the-shelf solution, however, if such a charger exists. My current collection of chargers are plug-in and go type, in that they have appropriate profiles for charging to a specific level and tapering off as appropriate for the pack.
As an additional consideration, this battery does not need to be charged in an hour or even two or three. I'm amenable to a configuration that requires a ten hour or longer charge period, especially if cost is lower.
I welcome corrections to my train of thought, even to the point of derailment as appropriate. I'm hoping for an off-the-shelf solution that works out-of-the-box or works with appropriate adjustments on the panel or equivalent.

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Re: Leaf module charging recommendations

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I special ordered 4 chargers from
https://evfittinggreentime.aliexpress.com/store/313864

I bought 4 of their 6 amp chargers and asked them to set the termination voltage to 12 X 4.15 volts = 49.8 volts to use with my 4 Chevy Volt Modules.  You can ask for whatever termination voltage you are comfortable with.

I previously had bought two of their 54.6 volt chargers for the 16 Calb Cells in my motorcycle and have been very happy with their chargers working as advertised.


Damon


________________________________
From: EV <[hidden email]> on behalf of fred via EV <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 3:14 PM
To: via EV
Cc: fred
Subject: [EVDL] Leaf module charging recommendations

Thanks to Jerry Dycus for selling me a great looking clean Volt battery module. My still-working Radio Shack (top of the line) digital multimeter tells me all the cells are within 0.01 at 3.56 or 3.57 volts.
I've found this useful bit of data:
Number of cells        36
Construction            12 in-series x 3 in parallel
Length                      9.5"
Width                        9.5"
Height                      10.5
Weight                     45 lbs
Output terminal        M6 nut
Amp Hour                47
Total Voltage           48vdc



CELL SPECIFICATIONS
Cell type                        Laminate type
Cathode material           LiMn2O4 with LiNiO2
Anode material              Graphite
Rated capacity (0.3C)   17 Ah
Average voltage            3.8 VDC
Maximum Voltage         4.2VDC
Minimum Voltage          3.0VDC
I measured 42.5vdc across each 12 cell block and the math says it should be 42.72vdc, which is close enough for my meter. It's not 48vdc and from an earlier discussion I expected that to be the case.
When it comes to charging this battery, I would like to ensure to get the right stuff. My experience with other lithium based batteries is that the nominal voltage of the charger is referenced to the battery and in all cases, the battery voltage is higher than the nominal voltage "listed." That is to say, a 36v battery charges to 42vdc and rarely drops to the 36v reference figure in regular use. The charger, of course, pushes electrons into the battery at those higher levels.
In the case of the Volt battery, I believe I would not want to use an off-the-shelf charger rated for a 48v battery. My search results have all been ending in devices with excessive top-end termination.

I would like to have an off-the-shelf solution, however, if such a charger exists. My current collection of chargers are plug-in and go type, in that they have appropriate profiles for charging to a specific level and tapering off as appropriate for the pack.
As an additional consideration, this battery does not need to be charged in an hour or even two or three. I'm amenable to a configuration that requires a ten hour or longer charge period, especially if cost is lower.
I welcome corrections to my train of thought, even to the point of derailment as appropriate. I'm hoping for an off-the-shelf solution that works out-of-the-box or works with appropriate adjustments on the panel or equivalent.

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Re: Leaf module charging recommendations

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On 01/30/2018 05:14 PM, fred via EV wrote:


> I would like to have an off-the-shelf solution, however, if such a charger exists. My current collection of chargers are plug-in and go type, in that they have appropriate profiles for charging to a specific level and tapering off as appropriate for the pack.
> As an additional consideration, this battery does not need to be charged in an hour or even two or three. I'm amenable to a configuration that requires a ten hour or longer charge period, especially if cost is lower.
> I welcome corrections to my train of thought, even to the point of derailment as appropriate. I'm hoping for an off-the-shelf solution that works out-of-the-box or works with appropriate adjustments on the panel or equivalent.

I just put three Volt modules in a 48v golf cart.  The cart will
probably run ok with a single module.  It runs ok but I haven't yet
configured a charger.  I expect a 48v Meanwell type power supply trimmed
to 49-50 volts to do the job.

I believe that you will find that 48 volt ebike chargers go too high.
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Re: Leaf module charging recommendations

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Fred,
So your meter indicates 3.54V as 3.56 or 3.57 which is less than 1% error.
For Lithium the nominal voltage is not when pretty much dead as Lead,
but closer to the halfway point.
Since your pack is pretty low in charge, below 20% I am guessing, the total
pack voltage is well below the nominal voltage, which is 12 x 3.8 = 45.6V
Max charge voltage of each cell is 4.2 but I would suggest to keep it under
4.1 if you are not required to get the absolute max out of the pack at all costs.
If you are doing a race for max distance then go ahead and aim for 4.2 or higher,
but in daily operation if you want longevity, then I suggest you charge to 4.1V.

You will need a (simple) BMS to tell you when a cell goes over 4.2V or under 3.0V
and preferably does some low-current balancing for you, for example the Leaf
BMS has 10mA balance current and runs 24/7.
You definitely want to get a signal from the BMS when any cell is hitting its limit
so you can either drop a contactor (to stop charging or driving) or at minimum get
a very noticeable warning that something is going out of spec, so you can respond to it
(especially while driving, since during charging you are likely asleep).

12 x 4.1V is 49.2V which is a convenient voltage that most 48V power supplies can easily be trimmed up to using the trimpot on the supply.
I have very many 48V power supplies, so let me know if you like to talk about getting one.

In fact, last week I disassembled an Enginer unit, which is a 48V Lithium battery pack for a Prius
with a charger and a DC/DC converter to the Prius's Hybrid packs ~200V, 5kW.
I do not trust the BMS that came with it as most batteries were toast, but you are welcome
to experiment with it if you like.
Success,
Cor.

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of fred via EV
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 3:15 PM
To: via EV
Cc: fred
Subject: [EVDL] Leaf module charging recommendations

Thanks to Jerry Dycus for selling me a great looking clean Volt battery module. My still-working Radio Shack (top of the line) digital multimeter tells me all the cells are within 0.01 at 3.56 or 3.57 volts.
I've found this useful bit of data:
Number of cells        36
Construction            12 in-series x 3 in parallel Length                      9.5"
Width                        9.5"
Height                      10.5
Weight                     45 lbs
Output terminal        M6 nut
Amp Hour                47
Total Voltage           48vdc

 

CELL SPECIFICATIONS
Cell type                        Laminate type Cathode material           LiMn2O4 with LiNiO2 Anode material              Graphite Rated capacity (0.3C)   17 Ah Average voltage            3.8 VDC Maximum Voltage         4.2VDC Minimum Voltage          3.0VDC I measured 42.5vdc across each 12 cell block and the math says it should be 42.72vdc, which is close enough for my meter. It's not 48vdc and from an earlier discussion I expected that to be the case.
When it comes to charging this battery, I would like to ensure to get the right stuff. My experience with other lithium based batteries is that the nominal voltage of the charger is referenced to the battery and in all cases, the battery voltage is higher than the nominal voltage "listed." That is to say, a 36v battery charges to 42vdc and rarely drops to the 36v reference figure in regular use. The charger, of course, pushes electrons into the battery at those higher levels.
In the case of the Volt battery, I believe I would not want to use an off-the-shelf charger rated for a 48v battery. My search results have all been ending in devices with excessive top-end termination.

I would like to have an off-the-shelf solution, however, if such a charger exists. My current collection of chargers are plug-in and go type, in that they have appropriate profiles for charging to a specific level and tapering off as appropriate for the pack.
As an additional consideration, this battery does not need to be charged in an hour or even two or three. I'm amenable to a configuration that requires a ten hour or longer charge period, especially if cost is lower.
I welcome corrections to my train of thought, even to the point of derailment as appropriate. I'm hoping for an off-the-shelf solution that works out-of-the-box or works with appropriate adjustments on the panel or equivalent.

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Re: Leaf module charging recommendations

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      Hi Fred and All,              I measured them with a known good meter at 3.53v/cell so use that to calibrate yours.  I don't charge them up so safer to ship.I parallel the 2 48vdc nom sections in a 4 kwh module and charge them with a MPJA  sold   hf240w-sf-48.    Once you get it, adjust it to 49.2vdc  and you are good.  Don't charge over 49.2vdc.  I too am looking for more powerful and reasonably priced solutions that can handle lithium in 48, 96, 120 and 144vdc packs.I think your 3vdc/cell is too low and I'm using 3.2vdc/cell for now.Would like to hear others on what voltages the 2013 Volt uses or what they are using.?And what inverters at a reasonable price one can use to run off the 48vdc EV pack to give V2H?Thanks,        Jerry Dycus

      From: fred via EV <[hidden email]>
 To: via EV <[hidden email]>
Cc: fred <[hidden email]>
 Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 6:15 PM
 Subject: [EVDL] Leaf module charging recommendations
   
Thanks to Jerry Dycus for selling me a great looking clean Volt battery module. My still-working Radio Shack (top of the line) digital multimeter tells me all the cells are within 0.01 at 3.56 or 3.57 volts.
I've found this useful bit of data:
Number of cells        36
Construction            12 in-series x 3 in parallel
Length                      9.5"
Width                        9.5"
Height                      10.5
Weight                     45 lbs
Output terminal        M6 nut
Amp Hour                47
Total Voltage           48vdc

 

CELL SPECIFICATIONS
Cell type                        Laminate type
Cathode material           LiMn2O4 with LiNiO2
Anode material              Graphite
Rated capacity (0.3C)   17 Ah
Average voltage            3.8 VDC
Maximum Voltage         4.2VDC
Minimum Voltage          3.0VDC
I measured 42.5vdc across each 12 cell block and the math says it should be 42.72vdc, which is close enough for my meter. It's not 48vdc and from an earlier discussion I expected that to be the case.
When it comes to charging this battery, I would like to ensure to get the right stuff. My experience with other lithium based batteries is that the nominal voltage of the charger is referenced to the battery and in all cases, the battery voltage is higher than the nominal voltage "listed." That is to say, a 36v battery charges to 42vdc and rarely drops to the 36v reference figure in regular use. The charger, of course, pushes electrons into the battery at those higher levels.
In the case of the Volt battery, I believe I would not want to use an off-the-shelf charger rated for a 48v battery. My search results have all been ending in devices with excessive top-end termination.

I would like to have an off-the-shelf solution, however, if such a charger exists. My current collection of chargers are plug-in and go type, in that they have appropriate profiles for charging to a specific level and tapering off as appropriate for the pack.
As an additional consideration, this battery does not need to be charged in an hour or even two or three. I'm amenable to a configuration that requires a ten hour or longer charge period, especially if cost is lower.
I welcome corrections to my train of thought, even to the point of derailment as appropriate. I'm hoping for an off-the-shelf solution that works out-of-the-box or works with appropriate adjustments on the panel or equivalent.

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Re: Leaf module charging recommendations

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I tested the Power Supply thing and was not happy with the results.  I bought a MEANWELL SP-480-48 48V 10A supply for $90 off of Ebay.  It's been quite a while since I tested it, but I think I was not happy with the current limiting and was afraid that I would always be running it too close to it's max.  I believe there are simple add on circuits you can use to overcome this, but the Chinese chargers I went with were in the same relative price range (a little less expensive) and were turnkey.

Damon
________________________________
From: EV <[hidden email]> on behalf of Cor van de Water via EV <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 3:36 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Cor van de Water
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf module charging recommendations

Fred,
So your meter indicates 3.54V as 3.56 or 3.57 which is less than 1% error.
For Lithium the nominal voltage is not when pretty much dead as Lead,
but closer to the halfway point.
Since your pack is pretty low in charge, below 20% I am guessing, the total
pack voltage is well below the nominal voltage, which is 12 x 3.8 = 45.6V
Max charge voltage of each cell is 4.2 but I would suggest to keep it under
4.1 if you are not required to get the absolute max out of the pack at all costs.
If you are doing a race for max distance then go ahead and aim for 4.2 or higher,
but in daily operation if you want longevity, then I suggest you charge to 4.1V.

You will need a (simple) BMS to tell you when a cell goes over 4.2V or under 3.0V
and preferably does some low-current balancing for you, for example the Leaf
BMS has 10mA balance current and runs 24/7.
You definitely want to get a signal from the BMS when any cell is hitting its limit
so you can either drop a contactor (to stop charging or driving) or at minimum get
a very noticeable warning that something is going out of spec, so you can respond to it
(especially while driving, since during charging you are likely asleep).

12 x 4.1V is 49.2V which is a convenient voltage that most 48V power supplies can easily be trimmed up to using the trimpot on the supply.
I have very many 48V power supplies, so let me know if you like to talk about getting one.

In fact, last week I disassembled an Enginer unit, which is a 48V Lithium battery pack for a Prius
with a charger and a DC/DC converter to the Prius's Hybrid packs ~200V, 5kW.
I do not trust the BMS that came with it as most batteries were toast, but you are welcome
to experiment with it if you like.
Success,
Cor.

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of fred via EV
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 3:15 PM
To: via EV
Cc: fred
Subject: [EVDL] Leaf module charging recommendations

Thanks to Jerry Dycus for selling me a great looking clean Volt battery module. My still-working Radio Shack (top of the line) digital multimeter tells me all the cells are within 0.01 at 3.56 or 3.57 volts.
I've found this useful bit of data:
Number of cells        36
Construction            12 in-series x 3 in parallel Length                      9.5"
Width                        9.5"
Height                      10.5
Weight                     45 lbs
Output terminal        M6 nut
Amp Hour                47
Total Voltage           48vdc



CELL SPECIFICATIONS
Cell type                        Laminate type Cathode material           LiMn2O4 with LiNiO2 Anode material              Graphite Rated capacity (0.3C)   17 Ah Average voltage            3.8 VDC Maximum Voltage         4.2VDC Minimum Voltage          3.0VDC I measured 42.5vdc across each 12 cell block and the math says it should be 42.72vdc, which is close enough for my meter. It's not 48vdc and from an earlier discussion I expected that to be the case.
When it comes to charging this battery, I would like to ensure to get the right stuff. My experience with other lithium based batteries is that the nominal voltage of the charger is referenced to the battery and in all cases, the battery voltage is higher than the nominal voltage "listed." That is to say, a 36v battery charges to 42vdc and rarely drops to the 36v reference figure in regular use. The charger, of course, pushes electrons into the battery at those higher levels.
In the case of the Volt battery, I believe I would not want to use an off-the-shelf charger rated for a 48v battery. My search results have all been ending in devices with excessive top-end termination.

I would like to have an off-the-shelf solution, however, if such a charger exists. My current collection of chargers are plug-in and go type, in that they have appropriate profiles for charging to a specific level and tapering off as appropriate for the pack.
As an additional consideration, this battery does not need to be charged in an hour or even two or three. I'm amenable to a configuration that requires a ten hour or longer charge period, especially if cost is lower.
I welcome corrections to my train of thought, even to the point of derailment as appropriate. I'm hoping for an off-the-shelf solution that works out-of-the-box or works with appropriate adjustments on the panel or equivalent.

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Re: Leaf module charging recommendations

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Hi Jerry,
I have a good number of MeanWell S-240-48 which have a trimpot to set the max voltage
and some people have designed small screw-on boards to add current limit to these supplies
to use them as simple I-U chargers at 48V 5A each so a pair of them can charge a 4kWh pack overnight
within 8 hours if it is completely drained.
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Mean-Well/S-240-48/

For my current truck, I will take 48V server supplies and modify those to become a charger,
the main reason to do that is because I can get those 3kW supplies for $20.
2 of them can max out a public charging station, 6kW from a J1772.

For vehicle to house from a 48V pack, I would look at used UPS (Uninterruptible Power Supply)
with bad batteries and find one that takes 48V of batteries. These are not the small supplies,
you likely will end up buying a 3 or 5kVA UPS to get this battery voltage.
I even found a cheap 3kVA UPS that takes 120VDC batteries, perfect for my previous truck.
I just had to remove the wire from the external battery pack enclosure and wire it via a
DC breaker into the truck as backup battery, so I could plug the UPS into the truck and get 110VAC
Cor.

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of jerry freedomev via EV
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 3:45 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: jerry freedomev; fred
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf module charging recommendations


      Hi Fred and All,              I measured them with a known good meter at 3.53v/cell so use that to calibrate yours.  I don't charge them up so safer to ship.I parallel the 2 48vdc nom sections in a 4 kwh module and charge them with a MPJA  sold   hf240w-sf-48.    Once you get it, adjust it to 49.2vdc  and you are good.  Don't charge over 49.2vdc.  I too am looking for more powerful and reasonably priced solutions that can handle lithium in 48, 96, 120 and 144vdc packs.I think your 3vdc/cell is too low and I'm using 3.2vdc/cell for now.Would like to hear others on what voltages the 2013 Volt uses or what they are using.?And what inverters at a reasonable price one can use to run off the 48vdc EV pack to give V2H?Thanks,        Jerry Dycus

      From: fred via EV <[hidden email]>
 To: via EV <[hidden email]>
Cc: fred <[hidden email]>
 Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 6:15 PM
 Subject: [EVDL] Leaf module charging recommendations
   
Thanks to Jerry Dycus for selling me a great looking clean Volt battery module. My still-working Radio Shack (top of the line) digital multimeter tells me all the cells are within 0.01 at 3.56 or 3.57 volts.
I've found this useful bit of data:
Number of cells        36
Construction            12 in-series x 3 in parallel Length                      9.5"
Width                        9.5"
Height                      10.5
Weight                     45 lbs
Output terminal        M6 nut
Amp Hour                47
Total Voltage           48vdc

 

CELL SPECIFICATIONS
Cell type                        Laminate type Cathode material           LiMn2O4 with LiNiO2 Anode material              Graphite Rated capacity (0.3C)   17 Ah Average voltage            3.8 VDC Maximum Voltage         4.2VDC Minimum Voltage          3.0VDC I measured 42.5vdc across each 12 cell block and the math says it should be 42.72vdc, which is close enough for my meter. It's not 48vdc and from an earlier discussion I expected that to be the case.
When it comes to charging this battery, I would like to ensure to get the right stuff. My experience with other lithium based batteries is that the nominal voltage of the charger is referenced to the battery and in all cases, the battery voltage is higher than the nominal voltage "listed." That is to say, a 36v battery charges to 42vdc and rarely drops to the 36v reference figure in regular use. The charger, of course, pushes electrons into the battery at those higher levels.
In the case of the Volt battery, I believe I would not want to use an off-the-shelf charger rated for a 48v battery. My search results have all been ending in devices with excessive top-end termination.

I would like to have an off-the-shelf solution, however, if such a charger exists. My current collection of chargers are plug-in and go type, in that they have appropriate profiles for charging to a specific level and tapering off as appropriate for the pack.
As an additional consideration, this battery does not need to be charged in an hour or even two or three. I'm amenable to a configuration that requires a ten hour or longer charge period, especially if cost is lower.
I welcome corrections to my train of thought, even to the point of derailment as appropriate. I'm hoping for an off-the-shelf solution that works out-of-the-box or works with appropriate adjustments on the panel or equivalent.

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