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LiFePO4

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
While I was looking for other information a couple of days ago, I ran across
something on the web that surprised me.  I didn't follow up at the time and
now I've lost track of where it was, but maybe someone else here knows
something about it.

The post or article I saw claimed that Tesla's supposedly-upcoming much-
discussed "million mile battery" is lithium iron phosphate chemistry.

LiFePO4 was something of an EV holy grail 15-20 years ago.  Valence was
offering their Saphion phosphate-based lithium modules around 2002.  A123
was also an early LiFePO4 booster.  Both claimed long cycle life and
improved safety, and A123s were also known for ferocious specific power.

When the cheap and cheerful Chinese low-power versions from Thundersky,
CALB, and others started to appear in the States, a lot of them went into EV
conversions.  You can find discussions about this in the EVDL archive around
2006-2009.

If memory serves, the main downside to LiFePO4 was specific energy.  It just
wasn't as good as what cobalt and manganese based chemistries offered.  

I also seem to recall some kind of patent-related LiFePO4 problem.  This may
have been the reason that hobbyists jumped on the cheap and cheerful Chinese
LiFePO4 cells from Thundersky, CALB, and the like.  Again dredging up from
memory, I think that hose companies somehow (allegedly) made an end run
around the patent and licensing concerns.

Now, if I'm not mistaken, Tesla's development partner in the "million mile
battery" is a Chinese firm.  That's ... uh ... interesting.

So has the EV world rehabilitated lithium iron phosphate's reputation?  Has
its specific energy problem been solved?  What about licensing and patents?

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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     A developed country is not a place where the poor have cars.
     It's where the rich use public transportation.

                                    -- Gustavo Petro
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

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Re: LiFePO4

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On 7/7/20 2:43 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

> I also seem to recall some kind of patent-related LiFePO4 problem.  This may
> have been the reason that hobbyists jumped on the cheap and cheerful Chinese
> LiFePO4 cells from Thundersky, CALB, and the like.  Again dredging up from
> memory, I think that hose companies somehow (allegedly) made an end run
> around the patent and licensing concerns.
>
> Now, if I'm not mistaken, Tesla's development partner in the "million mile
> battery" is a Chinese firm.  That's ... uh ... interesting.
>
> So has the EV world rehabilitated lithium iron phosphate's reputation?  Has
> its specific energy problem been solved?  What about licensing and patents?

I suppose, like NiMH, the patents on LPF are no longer in effect.  But,
I don't know that for sure.

CATL is to the the supplier of LFP batteries for Chinese Teslas.  I
don't think it is known whether those batteries will be offered
elsewhere in the world.  Presumably, there has been much progress on LFP
cells.  Though, I don't think the "million mile" cells will be LFP.  Or,
maybe I'm wrong.

There is much buzz about a Tesla battery factory in California which is
rumored to be about to produce the better, "million mile", cells.

Short story: no one knows for sure.  That is why we are eagerly awaiting
Battery Day.

Jack Rickard has the view that Tesla is wary of "the Osborne" effect and
will not formally introduce vastly improved cells until they are being
manufactured.


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Re: LiFePO4

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I don't think that LiFePO4 has made any remarkable gains in specific energy.

What LiFePO4 does have is spectacular cycle life. If manufactured with
some degree of care, you get 15,000+, 100% SOC, 1C cycles @ 25 Celsius
from LiFePO4 without going below 50% of the original capacity. They just
keep going and going.... You have to seal the case well enough to keep
air and water out, and use paste, separators, etc. that are also
reasonably free of water and air on the inside.

Thus, a "million mile" battery has always be possible to make with
LiFePO4 cells. You just have to be motivated to use quality cells, and
to actually build it. You also need to be motivated to drive the car
that many miles. :-)

200 miles per charge, times 15,000 charge cycles = 3,000,000 miles. Even
at 5000 cycles, that run-of-the-mill LiFePO4 cells achieve, this gets
you a million miles.

Bill D.


On 7/7/2020 7:43 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

> While I was looking for other information a couple of days ago, I ran across
> something on the web that surprised me.  I didn't follow up at the time and
> now I've lost track of where it was, but maybe someone else here knows
> something about it.
>
> The post or article I saw claimed that Tesla's supposedly-upcoming much-
> discussed "million mile battery" is lithium iron phosphate chemistry.
>
> LiFePO4 was something of an EV holy grail 15-20 years ago.  Valence was
> offering their Saphion phosphate-based lithium modules around 2002.  A123
> was also an early LiFePO4 booster.  Both claimed long cycle life and
> improved safety, and A123s were also known for ferocious specific power.
>
> When the cheap and cheerful Chinese low-power versions from Thundersky,
> CALB, and others started to appear in the States, a lot of them went into EV
> conversions.  You can find discussions about this in the EVDL archive around
> 2006-2009.
>
> If memory serves, the main downside to LiFePO4 was specific energy.  It just
> wasn't as good as what cobalt and manganese based chemistries offered.
>
> I also seem to recall some kind of patent-related LiFePO4 problem.  This may
> have been the reason that hobbyists jumped on the cheap and cheerful Chinese
> LiFePO4 cells from Thundersky, CALB, and the like.  Again dredging up from
> memory, I think that hose companies somehow (allegedly) made an end run
> around the patent and licensing concerns.
>
> Now, if I'm not mistaken, Tesla's development partner in the "million mile
> battery" is a Chinese firm.  That's ... uh ... interesting.
>
> So has the EV world rehabilitated lithium iron phosphate's reputation?  Has
> its specific energy problem been solved?  What about licensing and patents?
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>       A developed country is not a place where the poor have cars.
>       It's where the rich use public transportation.
>
>                                      -- Gustavo Petro
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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Re: LiFePO4

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Where are these mythical cells? They sure aren't from CALB.

Al

On 7/8/2020 8:06 PM, Bill Dube via EV wrote:

> I don't think that LiFePO4 has made any remarkable gains in specific
> energy.
>
> What LiFePO4 does have is spectacular cycle life. If manufactured with
> some degree of care, you get 15,000+, 100% SOC, 1C cycles @ 25 Celsius
> from LiFePO4 without going below 50% of the original capacity. They
> just keep going and going.... You have to seal the case well enough to
> keep air and water out, and use paste, separators, etc. that are also
> reasonably free of water and air on the inside.
>
> Thus, a "million mile" battery has always be possible to make with
> LiFePO4 cells. You just have to be motivated to use quality cells, and
> to actually build it. You also need to be motivated to drive the car
> that many miles. :-)
>
> 200 miles per charge, times 15,000 charge cycles = 3,000,000 miles.
> Even at 5000 cycles, that run-of-the-mill LiFePO4 cells achieve, this
> gets you a million miles.
>
> Bill D.
>
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Re: LiFePO4

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A123 Systems has made high quality LiFePO4 for many years.

They mostly are used in cordless tools, start-stop automotive systems,
and hybrid cars.

They make LiFePO4 cells for the Formula 1 KERS system that put out >>
20,000 W/kg. This is over 500 C discharge. They have unparalleled
specific power.

Bill D.

On 7/9/2020 1:11 PM, Alan Arrison via EV wrote:

> Where are these mythical cells? They sure aren't from CALB.
>
> Al
>
> On 7/8/2020 8:06 PM, Bill Dube via EV wrote:
>> I don't think that LiFePO4 has made any remarkable gains in specific
>> energy.
>>
>> What LiFePO4 does have is spectacular cycle life. If manufactured
>> with some degree of care, you get 15,000+, 100% SOC, 1C cycles @ 25
>> Celsius from LiFePO4 without going below 50% of the original
>> capacity. They just keep going and going.... You have to seal the
>> case well enough to keep air and water out, and use paste,
>> separators, etc. that are also reasonably free of water and air on
>> the inside.
>>
>> Thus, a "million mile" battery has always be possible to make with
>> LiFePO4 cells. You just have to be motivated to use quality cells,
>> and to actually build it. You also need to be motivated to drive the
>> car that many miles. :-)
>>
>> 200 miles per charge, times 15,000 charge cycles = 3,000,000 miles.
>> Even at 5000 cycles, that run-of-the-mill LiFePO4 cells achieve, this
>> gets you a million miles.
>>
>> Bill D.
>>
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>

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Re: LiFePO4

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On 7/8/20 9:09 PM, Bill Dube via EV wrote:
> A123 Systems has made high quality LiFePO4 for many years.

Does A123 survive?  My recollection is that their major car customer
(can't come up with the name) lost a bunch of cars to flooding, then
went under taking A123 with them?

Set me straight, Bill.  Is the reason they have not been more successful
that their cost is too high?  Valence has had some good products but
they seem not cost effective.


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Re: LiFePO4

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A123 Systems is still making lots of batteries.

There were a number of business decisions that were not optimal in the
early years. They declared bankruptcy and were bought by a large Chinese
auto parts conglomerate. They altered their focus away from EV batteries
and towards other markets that made more sense for LiFePO4 technology.

Bill D.

On 7/9/2020 2:17 PM, Willie via EV wrote:

>
>
> On 7/8/20 9:09 PM, Bill Dube via EV wrote:
>> A123 Systems has made high quality LiFePO4 for many years.
>
> Does A123 survive?  My recollection is that their major car customer
> (can't come up with the name) lost a bunch of cars to flooding, then
> went under taking A123 with them?
>
> Set me straight, Bill.  Is the reason they have not been more
> successful that their cost is too high?  Valence has had some good
> products but they seem not cost effective.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

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Re: LiFePO4

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On 9 Jul 2020 at 14:30, Bill Dube via EV wrote:

> They altered their focus away from EV batteries and towards other
> markets that made more sense for LiFePO4 technology.

Obviously I'm not in any position to advise them, but I wonder if it might
be time for A123 to review their focus.  

I don't know how dependent they are on the US market, but with the US
seemingly headed for both short and long term economic contraction, they
might do well to look toward western Europe and Southeast Asia for growth.
There the market for EVs and their batteries is ramping up quickly.

EVs there are (unfortunately IMO) getting larger, with more battery space.  
Something of a range race is heating up, too.

If A123 can solve the energy density problem (I mean in terms of volume, not
mass), I suspect that they could also grab some of the warranty and spares
market.  

For example, there are quite a few older 2012-2019 Renault Zoes running
round the EU.  In most countries save Norway the majority have leased
batteries.  Renault's contract says they'll service the batteries if they
fall below 75% capacity. If A123 could supply cells that would yield the
nominal original capacity (22kWh or 42kWh) and be the last service that that
battery needed, Renault's bean counters might take notice.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
     It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been
     fooled.

                                             -- Mark Twain
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Re: LiFePO4

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Used to be, I am out of touch, that less than 100°F and 100% SOC was a
recipe for significant battery degradation. Not say they haven't solved
this, but 5 year old cells would not be very good in this respect.

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 8:06 PM Bill Dube via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I don't think that LiFePO4 has made any remarkable gains in specific
> energy.
>
> What LiFePO4 does have is spectacular cycle life. If manufactured with
> some degree of care, you get 15,000+, 100% SOC, 1C cycles @ 25 Celsius
> from LiFePO4 without going below 50% of the original capacity. They just
> keep going and going.... You have to seal the case well enough to keep
> air and water out, and use paste, separators, etc. that are also
> reasonably free of water and air on the inside.
>
> Thus, a "million mile" battery has always be possible to make with
> LiFePO4 cells. You just have to be motivated to use quality cells, and
> to actually build it. You also need to be motivated to drive the car
> that many miles. :-)
>
> 200 miles per charge, times 15,000 charge cycles = 3,000,000 miles. Even
> at 5000 cycles, that run-of-the-mill LiFePO4 cells achieve, this gets
> you a million miles.
>
> Bill D.
>
>
> On 7/7/2020 7:43 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
> > While I was looking for other information a couple of days ago, I ran
> across
> > something on the web that surprised me.  I didn't follow up at the time
> and
> > now I've lost track of where it was, but maybe someone else here knows
> > something about it.
> >
> > The post or article I saw claimed that Tesla's supposedly-upcoming much-
> > discussed "million mile battery" is lithium iron phosphate chemistry.
> >
> > LiFePO4 was something of an EV holy grail 15-20 years ago.  Valence was
> > offering their Saphion phosphate-based lithium modules around 2002.  A123
> > was also an early LiFePO4 booster.  Both claimed long cycle life and
> > improved safety, and A123s were also known for ferocious specific power.
> >
> > When the cheap and cheerful Chinese low-power versions from Thundersky,
> > CALB, and others started to appear in the States, a lot of them went
> into EV
> > conversions.  You can find discussions about this in the EVDL archive
> around
> > 2006-2009.
> >
> > If memory serves, the main downside to LiFePO4 was specific energy.  It
> just
> > wasn't as good as what cobalt and manganese based chemistries offered.
> >
> > I also seem to recall some kind of patent-related LiFePO4 problem.  This
> may
> > have been the reason that hobbyists jumped on the cheap and cheerful
> Chinese
> > LiFePO4 cells from Thundersky, CALB, and the like.  Again dredging up
> from
> > memory, I think that hose companies somehow (allegedly) made an end run
> > around the patent and licensing concerns.
> >
> > Now, if I'm not mistaken, Tesla's development partner in the "million
> mile
> > battery" is a Chinese firm.  That's ... uh ... interesting.
> >
> > So has the EV world rehabilitated lithium iron phosphate's reputation?
> Has
> > its specific energy problem been solved?  What about licensing and
> patents?
> >
> > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> >
> > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >       A developed country is not a place where the poor have cars.
> >       It's where the rich use public transportation.
> >
> >                                      -- Gustavo Petro
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
>
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>

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Re: LiFePO4

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On 8 Jul 2020 at 23:39, Michael Ross via EV wrote:

> Used to be, I am out of touch, that less than 100°F and 100% SOC was a
> recipe for significant battery degradation.

I thought it was the other way round - that lithium cells at or near 100%
SOC would degrade rapidly at high temperatures.  IIRC, the recommendation
was to keep SOC at or below 80% if high temperatures were expected.  Do I
have it backwards?

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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     in corporations, and now in government, is that they are so decisive.
     Unlike normal people, they are never filled with doubts, for the
     simple reason that they cannot care what happens next.

                                      -- Kurt Vonnegut
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Re: LiFePO4

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
LiFePO4 only has about half the specific energy of metal oxide (like
cobalt) cells.

Because they are such low impedance (high specific power) you can reduce
the weight of the cooling system, (or perhaps eliminate it entirely) but
that in not nearly enough weight to make up the difference in an EV
application.

LiFePO4 is best when you are more interested in high power, or cycle
life, or perhaps safety, than in maximum energy content per kg.
Cordless tools, starting, start-stop, hybrids, all are great
applications. EV's, not so much.

Bill D.



On 7/10/2020 12:26 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

> On 9 Jul 2020 at 14:30, Bill Dube via EV wrote:
>
>> They altered their focus away from EV batteries and towards other
>> markets that made more sense for LiFePO4 technology.
> Obviously I'm not in any position to advise them, but I wonder if it might
> be time for A123 to review their focus.
>
> I don't know how dependent they are on the US market, but with the US
> seemingly headed for both short and long term economic contraction, they
> might do well to look toward western Europe and Southeast Asia for growth.
> There the market for EVs and their batteries is ramping up quickly.
>
> EVs there are (unfortunately IMO) getting larger, with more battery space.
> Something of a range race is heating up, too.
>
> If A123 can solve the energy density problem (I mean in terms of volume, not
> mass), I suspect that they could also grab some of the warranty and spares
> market.
>
> For example, there are quite a few older 2012-2019 Renault Zoes running
> round the EU.  In most countries save Norway the majority have leased
> batteries.  Renault's contract says they'll service the batteries if they
> fall below 75% capacity. If A123 could supply cells that would yield the
> nominal original capacity (22kWh or 42kWh) and be the last service that that
> battery needed, Renault's bean counters might take notice.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>       It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been
>       fooled.
>
>                                     -- Mark Twain
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

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Re: LiFePO4

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I would say that is only because people fictionally think they need a 300+ mile range. My i-MiEV goes 40 miles now after 8 years 65 miles new and rarely will it not go where I need to go. I have a Tesla now and it’s so much nicer I drive it most of the time. But before COVID I drive the Mitsubishi everyday to work. I love that car and while the range cuts it close sometimes I think With 100 mile range I would have Zero issues.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 9, 2020, at 4:35 AM, Bill Dube via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> LiFePO4 only has about half the specific energy of metal oxide (like cobalt) cells.
>
> Because they are such low impedance (high specific power) you can reduce the weight of the cooling system, (or perhaps eliminate it entirely) but that in not nearly enough weight to make up the difference in an EV application.
>
> LiFePO4 is best when you are more interested in high power, or cycle life, or perhaps safety, than in maximum energy content per kg.
> Cordless tools, starting, start-stop, hybrids, all are great applications. EV's, not so much.
>
> Bill D.
>
>
>
>> On 7/10/2020 12:26 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
>>> On 9 Jul 2020 at 14:30, Bill Dube via EV wrote:
>>>
>>> They altered their focus away from EV batteries and towards other
>>> markets that made more sense for LiFePO4 technology.
>> Obviously I'm not in any position to advise them, but I wonder if it might
>> be time for A123 to review their focus.
>>
>> I don't know how dependent they are on the US market, but with the US
>> seemingly headed for both short and long term economic contraction, they
>> might do well to look toward western Europe and Southeast Asia for growth.
>> There the market for EVs and their batteries is ramping up quickly.
>>
>> EVs there are (unfortunately IMO) getting larger, with more battery space.
>> Something of a range race is heating up, too.
>>
>> If A123 can solve the energy density problem (I mean in terms of volume, not
>> mass), I suspect that they could also grab some of the warranty and spares
>> market.
>>
>> For example, there are quite a few older 2012-2019 Renault Zoes running
>> round the EU.  In most countries save Norway the majority have leased
>> batteries.  Renault's contract says they'll service the batteries if they
>> fall below 75% capacity. If A123 could supply cells that would yield the
>> nominal original capacity (22kWh or 42kWh) and be the last service that that
>> battery needed, Renault's bean counters might take notice.
>>
>> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>>
>> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
>> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>>
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>      It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been
>>      fooled.
>>
>>                                         -- Mark Twain
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
>> INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

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Re: LiFePO4

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Paul,
300+ mile range isn't fictional. Or, maybe at least 250 miles.

Sure, if you rarely go more than, say, 100 miles in a day you can rent
something for the exceptions.

Using myself as an example, I need a vehicle that can go 200 miles RT
for excursions to the mountains. I go 20-25 times a year which justifies
owning a vehicle rather than renting. Plus, with a 15 hour day, I don't
want the overhead of another hour or two to rent something. Plus, rental
companies generally don't allow driving off paved roads, except for
short driveways.

I think there are many people who have stories, and in all sorts of
manners. I also agree, there are plenty of people who think they need it
but don't.

Peri

<< Want to know about the effects of leaf blowers ?
https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

------ Original Message ------
From: "paul dove via EV" <[hidden email]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "paul dove" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 09-Jul-20 4:16:52 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4

>I would say that is only because people fictionally think they need a 300+ mile range. My i-MiEV goes 40 miles now after 8 years 65 miles new and rarely will it not go where I need to go. I have a Tesla now and it’s so much nicer I drive it most of the time. But before COVID I drive the Mitsubishi everyday to work. I love that car and while the range cuts it close sometimes I think With 100 mile range I would have Zero issues.
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>>  On Jul 9, 2020, at 4:35 AM, Bill Dube via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>  LiFePO4 only has about half the specific energy of metal oxide (like cobalt) cells.
>>
>>  Because they are such low impedance (high specific power) you can reduce the weight of the cooling system, (or perhaps eliminate it entirely) but that in not nearly enough weight to make up the difference in an EV application.
>>
>>  LiFePO4 is best when you are more interested in high power, or cycle life, or perhaps safety, than in maximum energy content per kg.
>>  Cordless tools, starting, start-stop, hybrids, all are great applications. EV's, not so much.
>>
>>  Bill D.
>>
>>
>>
>>>  On 7/10/2020 12:26 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
>>>>  On 9 Jul 2020 at 14:30, Bill Dube via EV wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  They altered their focus away from EV batteries and towards other
>>>>  markets that made more sense for LiFePO4 technology.
>>>  Obviously I'm not in any position to advise them, but I wonder if it might
>>>  be time for A123 to review their focus.
>>>
>>>  I don't know how dependent they are on the US market, but with the US
>>>  seemingly headed for both short and long term economic contraction, they
>>>  might do well to look toward western Europe and Southeast Asia for growth.
>>>  There the market for EVs and their batteries is ramping up quickly.
>>>
>>>  EVs there are (unfortunately IMO) getting larger, with more battery space.
>>>  Something of a range race is heating up, too.
>>>
>>>  If A123 can solve the energy density problem (I mean in terms of volume, not
>>>  mass), I suspect that they could also grab some of the warranty and spares
>>>  market.
>>>
>>>  For example, there are quite a few older 2012-2019 Renault Zoes running
>>>  round the EU.  In most countries save Norway the majority have leased
>>>  batteries.  Renault's contract says they'll service the batteries if they
>>>  fall below 75% capacity. If A123 could supply cells that would yield the
>>>  nominal original capacity (22kWh or 42kWh) and be the last service that that
>>>  battery needed, Renault's bean counters might take notice.
>>>
>>>  David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>>>
>>>  To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
>>>  offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>>>
>>>  = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>>       It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been
>>>       fooled.
>>>
>>>                                          -- Mark Twain
>>>  = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>  UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>>  ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
>>>  INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>>  Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>  ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
>>  INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>  Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

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Re: LiFePO4

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
>From: paul dove via EV <[hidden email]>
>I would say that is only because people fictionally think they need a 300+ mile range. My i-MiEV goes 40 miles now after 8 years 65 miles new and rarely will it not go where I need to go... I love that car and while the range cuts it close sometimes I think With 100 mile range I would have Zero issues.

I agree. What matters is how much range YOU need.

I've driven EVs since the 1970's, and have never needed them to go over 50-100 miles on a charge. The EVs are my daily driver, and I don't drive farther than that on a daily basis. When I need more range, I'm going on a trip; so then I use an ICE car.

Since 90% of my driving is local, 90% of my driving is EV. That's not 100%; but the perfect is the enemy of the good. I'm not willing to pay the Tesla premium for a perfect 100% EV solution.



--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: LiFePO4

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
 > 90% of my driving is local, 90% of my driving is EV.
 > That's not 100%; but the perfect is the enemy of the good.
 > I'm not willing to pay the Tesla premium
 > for a perfect 100% EV solution.

If more people realized this, more of them would purchase EV's.

I'm frequently asked by interested people about my car's range.
Answering with a mileage figure is always a disappointment for them.
They expect a sound byte answer that will satisfy all their driving
needs. Anything less is a complete denial of the usefulness of the vehicle.

It takes longer to explain that the car fulfills a large percentage
of my commuting and hauling needs. If it's snowing, or I need to tow
a trailer, or climb to a mountain-top transmitter site, I take my 4x4
pickup ICE. If I need to take off for a weekend at a friend's beach
house, and need more range and speed, I take my diesel Rabbit. Is the
EV a perfect solution to every need? No, no tool ever is. I insure
three vehicles, which is the downside to having a wide range of
transportation needs. That's my penalty for having an active life.
Renting and ICE for those times the EV won't serve would make a lot
of sense, if there was such a service available locally.

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Re: LiFePO4

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
You are the exception not the rule. The data I have seen says 85% of the people go 35 miles a day. I never claimed everyone only needs 100 miles a day. I was also speaking of personal experience driving an EV.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 9, 2020, at 10:42 AM, Peri Hartman via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Paul,
> 300+ mile range isn't fictional. Or, maybe at least 250 miles.
>
> Sure, if you rarely go more than, say, 100 miles in a day you can rent something for the exceptions.
>
> Using myself as an example, I need a vehicle that can go 200 miles RT for excursions to the mountains. I go 20-25 times a year which justifies owning a vehicle rather than renting. Plus, with a 15 hour day, I don't want the overhead of another hour or two to rent something. Plus, rental companies generally don't allow driving off paved roads, except for short driveways.
>
> I think there are many people who have stories, and in all sorts of manners. I also agree, there are plenty of people who think they need it but don't.
>
> Peri
>
> << Want to know about the effects of leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "paul dove via EV" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "paul dove" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: 09-Jul-20 4:16:52 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4
>
>> I would say that is only because people fictionally think they need a 300+ mile range. My i-MiEV goes 40 miles now after 8 years 65 miles new and rarely will it not go where I need to go. I have a Tesla now and it’s so much nicer I drive it most of the time. But before COVID I drive the Mitsubishi everyday to work. I love that car and while the range cuts it close sometimes I think With 100 mile range I would have Zero issues.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>>> On Jul 9, 2020, at 4:35 AM, Bill Dube via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> LiFePO4 only has about half the specific energy of metal oxide (like cobalt) cells.
>>>
>>> Because they are such low impedance (high specific power) you can reduce the weight of the cooling system, (or perhaps eliminate it entirely) but that in not nearly enough weight to make up the difference in an EV application.
>>>
>>> LiFePO4 is best when you are more interested in high power, or cycle life, or perhaps safety, than in maximum energy content per kg.
>>> Cordless tools, starting, start-stop, hybrids, all are great applications. EV's, not so much.
>>>
>>> Bill D.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 7/10/2020 12:26 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
>>>>> On 9 Jul 2020 at 14:30, Bill Dube via EV wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> They altered their focus away from EV batteries and towards other
>>>>> markets that made more sense for LiFePO4 technology.
>>>> Obviously I'm not in any position to advise them, but I wonder if it might
>>>> be time for A123 to review their focus.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know how dependent they are on the US market, but with the US
>>>> seemingly headed for both short and long term economic contraction, they
>>>> might do well to look toward western Europe and Southeast Asia for growth.
>>>> There the market for EVs and their batteries is ramping up quickly.
>>>>
>>>> EVs there are (unfortunately IMO) getting larger, with more battery space.
>>>> Something of a range race is heating up, too.
>>>>
>>>> If A123 can solve the energy density problem (I mean in terms of volume, not
>>>> mass), I suspect that they could also grab some of the warranty and spares
>>>> market.
>>>>
>>>> For example, there are quite a few older 2012-2019 Renault Zoes running
>>>> round the EU.  In most countries save Norway the majority have leased
>>>> batteries.  Renault's contract says they'll service the batteries if they
>>>> fall below 75% capacity. If A123 could supply cells that would yield the
>>>> nominal original capacity (22kWh or 42kWh) and be the last service that that
>>>> battery needed, Renault's bean counters might take notice.
>>>>
>>>> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>>>>
>>>> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
>>>> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>>>>
>>>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>>>      It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been
>>>>      fooled.
>>>>
>>>>                                         -- Mark Twain
>>>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>>> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
>>>> INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
>>> INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
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>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

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Re: LiFePO4

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I agree! I also found that on days when I had a meeting in the evening that a 2 hour charge after I got home from work while I had my dinner was often enough to go to my meeting or run errands.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 9, 2020, at 2:55 PM, Mr. Sharkey via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > 90% of my driving is local, 90% of my driving is EV.
> > That's not 100%; but the perfect is the enemy of the good.
> > I'm not willing to pay the Tesla premium
> > for a perfect 100% EV solution.
>
> If more people realized this, more of them would purchase EV's.
>
> I'm frequently asked by interested people about my car's range. Answering with a mileage figure is always a disappointment for them. They expect a sound byte answer that will satisfy all their driving needs. Anything less is a complete denial of the usefulness of the vehicle.
>
> It takes longer to explain that the car fulfills a large percentage of my commuting and hauling needs. If it's snowing, or I need to tow a trailer, or climb to a mountain-top transmitter site, I take my 4x4 pickup ICE. If I need to take off for a weekend at a friend's beach house, and need more range and speed, I take my diesel Rabbit. Is the EV a perfect solution to every need? No, no tool ever is. I insure three vehicles, which is the downside to having a wide range of transportation needs. That's my penalty for having an active life. Renting and ICE for those times the EV won't serve would make a lot of sense, if there was such a service available locally.
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
> INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

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Re: LiFePO4

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I may be the exception, but I think you are misusing the statistic. To
say 85% of the people go 35 miles a day says nothing about how often
they go, say, 150+ miles in a day.

We need a statistic something like: 70% of people exceed 150 miles a day
5 times a year. This is a completely different statistic. Then you can
start to ask the question of whether they would be comfortable renting
something those 5 times.

Peri

<< Want to know about the effects of leaf blowers ?
https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

------ Original Message ------
From: "paul dove" <[hidden email]>
To: "Peri Hartman" <[hidden email]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 09-Jul-20 1:07:50 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4

>You are the exception not the rule. The data I have seen says 85% of the people go 35 miles a day. I never claimed everyone only needs 100 miles a day. I was also speaking of personal experience driving an EV.
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>>  On Jul 9, 2020, at 10:42 AM, Peri Hartman via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>  Paul,
>>  300+ mile range isn't fictional. Or, maybe at least 250 miles.
>>
>>  Sure, if you rarely go more than, say, 100 miles in a day you can rent something for the exceptions.
>>
>>  Using myself as an example, I need a vehicle that can go 200 miles RT for excursions to the mountains. I go 20-25 times a year which justifies owning a vehicle rather than renting. Plus, with a 15 hour day, I don't want the overhead of another hour or two to rent something. Plus, rental companies generally don't allow driving off paved roads, except for short driveways.
>>
>>  I think there are many people who have stories, and in all sorts of manners. I also agree, there are plenty of people who think they need it but don't.
>>
>>  Peri
>>

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Re: LiFePO4

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
How about an answer more like, "my primary car is the EV. A few times a
year, I need to go further than its range, so I use car X." Deflect the
question, like a "good" politician :)

We have the Leaf (2011) and it is our primary car. Even with its
horribly degraded range, it is almost exclusively used on a day to day
basis. (Still, only accounts for 1/2 the overall mileage since the other
vehicle is used for long range stuff.)

Peri

<< Want to know about the effects of leaf blowers ?
https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

------ Original Message ------
From: "Mr. Sharkey via EV" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Cc: "Mr. Sharkey" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 09-Jul-20 12:53:40 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4

> > 90% of my driving is local, 90% of my driving is EV.
> > That's not 100%; but the perfect is the enemy of the good.
> > I'm not willing to pay the Tesla premium
> > for a perfect 100% EV solution.
>
>If more people realized this, more of them would purchase EV's.
>
>I'm frequently asked by interested people about my car's range. Answering with a mileage figure is always a disappointment for them. They expect a sound byte answer that will satisfy all their driving needs. Anything less is a complete denial of the usefulness of the vehicle.
>
>It takes longer to explain that the car fulfills a large percentage of my commuting and hauling needs. If it's snowing, or I need to tow a trailer, or climb to a mountain-top transmitter site, I take my 4x4 pickup ICE. If I need to take off for a weekend at a friend's beach house, and need more range and speed, I take my diesel Rabbit. Is the EV a perfect solution to every need? No, no tool ever is. I insure three vehicles, which is the downside to having a wide range of transportation needs. That's my penalty for having an active life. Renting and ICE for those times the EV won't serve would make a lot of sense, if there was such a service available locally.
>
>_______________________________________________
>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
>INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

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Re: LiFePO4

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In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
July 9, 2020 8:18 AM, "EVDL Administrator via EV" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 8 Jul 2020 at 23:39, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>
>> Used to be, I am out of touch, that less than 100°F and 100% SOC was a
>> recipe for significant battery degradation.
>
> I thought it was the other way round - that lithium cells at or near 100%
> SOC would degrade rapidly at high temperatures. IIRC, the recommendation
> was to keep SOC at or below 80% if high temperatures were expected. Do I
> have it backwards?
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

That's my understanding as well.  I rarely charge the Bolt to more than 90% and when it's hot (like now) I try to keep it below 80% SOC unless I have a specific need to go higher.
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