LiIon thermal management question (Chevy Volt)

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
6 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

LiIon thermal management question (Chevy Volt)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I've noticed that if I leave my Volt plugged in and the outdoor temperature gets very high or very low the Volt will occasionally draw power for 10-15 minutes.  I assume this is the thermal management system working to keep the batteries at their "optimal" temperature.
http://www.vanderwal.us/energy/Volt-ico.png
What I'm wondering is how important is this (if any) to extending the life span of the batteries?
I'm guessing that when it's cold out, keeping the batteries warm just improves performance and that it won't hurt the batteries to spend a few hours at 20 deg F.
However, what happens when it's 90 deg out?
The reason I'm asking is if it's not critical when the car is parked, I'd like to avoid wasting 1-3 kwh a day.  I can always re-enable the EVSE before driving the car so the batteries will be at their designed temperature when being discharged.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20180125/fb2d69c2/attachment.html>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: LiIon thermal management question (Chevy Volt)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Peter,
Storing LiIion batteries is usually not the problem, although it is
recommended for long life to not store them fully charged, especially
not in hot environment.
Damage is done when (fast) charging in cold - the colder, the slower
they need to charge to avoid damage.
Nissan Leaf only has battery warmers, those will only come on when the
car is on or plugged in and below a certain temp (I believe -30)
I don't know about the Volt, it might simply stop maintaining the temp
when the EVSE is disabled, you can find out by simply trying and see if
the
state of charge of the Volt changes when the EVSE is not enabled.
Cor.

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
via EV
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2018 7:40 AM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: [EVDL] LiIon thermal management question (Chevy Volt)

I've noticed that if I leave my Volt plugged in and the outdoor
temperature gets very high or very low the Volt will occasionally draw
power for 10-15 minutes.  I assume this is the thermal management system
working to keep the batteries at their "optimal" temperature.
http://www.vanderwal.us/energy/Volt-ico.png
What I'm wondering is how important is this (if any) to extending the
life span of the batteries?
I'm guessing that when it's cold out, keeping the batteries warm just
improves performance and that it won't hurt the batteries to spend a few
hours at 20 deg F.
However, what happens when it's 90 deg out?
The reason I'm asking is if it's not critical when the car is parked,
I'd like to avoid wasting 1-3 kwh a day.  I can always re-enable the
EVSE before driving the car so the batteries will be at their designed
temperature when being discharged.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
<http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20180125/fb2d
69c2/attachment.html>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: LiIon thermal management question (Chevy Volt)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
I suspect you may find that the Volt still uses energy to keep the battery within its desired temperature range, but simply uses battery energy instead of EVSE energy.  You should be able to detect that by watching the range after the car sits unplugged or the EVSE is disabled, compared to range after the car sits with the EVSE providing power overnight.

Tesla definitely uses battery energy to keep the batteries in an environmental range.  They actually use the battery energy directly and only trigger a recharge cycle when the battery range has dropped 10 miles.  In my garage, that would probably be every 2-3 days.  I usually drive it every day and notice that it dropped 2-3 miles from the last charge ending range.

Mike

> On January 25, 2018 at 12:40 PM Cor van de Water via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> Peter,
> Storing LiIion batteries is usually not the problem, although it is
> recommended for long life to not store them fully charged, especially
> not in hot environment.
> Damage is done when (fast) charging in cold - the colder, the slower
> they need to charge to avoid damage.
> Nissan Leaf only has battery warmers, those will only come on when the
> car is on or plugged in and below a certain temp (I believe -30)
> I don't know about the Volt, it might simply stop maintaining the temp
> when the EVSE is disabled, you can find out by simply trying and see if
> the
> state of charge of the Volt changes when the EVSE is not enabled.
> Cor.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
> via EV
> Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2018 7:40 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: [EVDL] LiIon thermal management question (Chevy Volt)
>
> I've noticed that if I leave my Volt plugged in and the outdoor
> temperature gets very high or very low the Volt will occasionally draw
> power for 10-15 minutes.  I assume this is the thermal management system
> working to keep the batteries at their "optimal" temperature.
> http://www.vanderwal.us/energy/Volt-ico.png
> What I'm wondering is how important is this (if any) to extending the
> life span of the batteries?
> I'm guessing that when it's cold out, keeping the batteries warm just
> improves performance and that it won't hurt the batteries to spend a few
> hours at 20 deg F.
> However, what happens when it's 90 deg out?
> The reason I'm asking is if it's not critical when the car is parked,
> I'd like to avoid wasting 1-3 kwh a day.  I can always re-enable the
> EVSE before driving the car so the batteries will be at their designed
> temperature when being discharged.
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20180125/fb2d
> 69c2/attachment.html>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: LiIon thermal management question (Chevy Volt)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
On 25 Jan 2018 at 15:39, Peter VanDerWal via EV wrote:

> I assume this is the thermal management system working to keep the
> batteries at their "optimal" temperature ... how important is this (if
> any) to extending the life span of the batteries?

I'm far from a lithium expert, but I've read that while lead batteries lose
performance at low temperatures, cold can wreck lithiums if you're not
careful.  As I understand it, they should never be charged when their
temperature is below freezing.  I think that even discharging them gets
risky if they sink too far below 0 deg C.  

They also degrade faster (have shorter lives) when they get hot while fully
charged.  They don't seem to like being fully charged at all.  The rule of
thumb I read years ago for laptop batteries was that you should store them
at 50-70% SOC.

So I'd guess that thermal management is probably pretty important for your
Volt's battery.

BTW, welcome back to the EVDL, Peter.  It's been years since we've heard
from you. Good to know you're OK.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: LiIon thermal management question (Chevy Volt)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
In reply to this post by Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 09:40:23 -0800
From: "Cor van de Water"
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiIon thermal management question (Chevy Volt)
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="us-ascii"

Peter,
Storing LiIion batteries is usually not the problem, although it is
recommended for long life to not store them fully charged, especially
not in hot environment.
Damage is done when (fast) charging in cold - the colder, the slower
they need to charge to avoid damage.
Nissan Leaf only has battery warmers, those will only come on when the
car is on or plugged in and below a certain temp (I believe -30)
I don't know about the Volt, it might simply stop maintaining the temp
when the EVSE is disabled, you can find out by simply trying and see if
the state of charge of the Volt changes when the EVSE is not enabled.
Cor.
Thanks, Cor.
FWIW the Volt never allows the battery to fully charge or fully discharge.  This means that even though it has an 18.4kWh battery, only 14kWh is available.
The thermal management does both heating and cooling.  From what I've read all (electrical) heating is done with resistance heaters, cooling is done with a heat pump (cooling mode only, i.e. AC)
'Fast' charging is also not an option.  While it does support Level-2 charging, it tops out at 3.6kW which is about 6% of the batteries maximum charge rate.

I suspect you may find that the Volt still uses energy to keep the battery within its desired temperature range, but simply uses battery energy instead of EVSE energy.  You should be able to detect that by watching the range after the car sits unplugged or the EVSE is disabled, compared to range after the car sits with the EVSE providing power overnight.

Mike
Thanks, Mike.
That's a good point.  I hadn't thought about it using the battery energy to maintain temp.
I'll have to try leaving it unplugged and see what happens.  
However, I'm not sure if this would actually tell me anything.  It's possible that, even if it does use the batteries, I won't see a reduction in range right away.  It might just dig a bit more into the reserve so that it can provide the same 14kWh.
I gather that's what it does as the pack ages so that even after 6 years the 'available' capacity remains the same as it was when new.
I'm far from a lithium expert, but I've read that while lead batteries lose
performance at low temperatures, cold can wreck lithiums if you're not
careful.  As I understand it, they should never be charged when their
temperature is below freezing.  I think that even discharging them gets
risky if they sink too far below 0 deg C.  

They also degrade faster (have shorter lives) when they get hot while fully
charged.  They don't seem to like being fully charged at all.  The rule of
thumb I read years ago for laptop batteries was that you should store them
at 50-70% SOC.

So I'd guess that thermal management is probably pretty important for your
Volt's battery.

BTW, welcome back to the EVDL, Peter.  It's been years since we've heard
from you. Good to know you're OK.
Hi David,
Yeah, it's been a while hasn't it?  I've been busy, but I have a new job that leaves me with a lot of free time, occasionally.
Fortunately we rarely get below freezing and even then it's typically for only a few hours. Plus the Volt never allows the battery to get fully charged or fully discharged.
The geek in me wishes that Chevy would provided a way to get more detailed info about the battery, etc.  There is no SOC display, just a 10 segment display that shows how much of the allowed 14kWh you've used.  The predicted range display for a fully charged pack is not a constant, it varies significantly depending recent performance and possibly takes current environmental conditions into account.
There used to be a lot of information available through the OnStar link, but recently they have removed quite a lot of the data, including the data about battery level and charge state.
I've seen some folks are working on hacking the canbus to get at the data, so I might try that.
Thanks everyone.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20180126/67c49454/attachment.html>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: LiIon thermal management question (Chevy Volt)

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Peter,Glad to see your back.  Keep me in the loop for anything you find out about the CANbus hack for the Volt.  I havea 2014, best car I've ever owned!

    On Friday, January 26, 2018 10:43 AM, Peter VanDerWal via EV <[hidden email]> wrote:
 

 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 09:40:23 -0800
From: "Cor van de Water"
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiIon thermal management question (Chevy Volt)
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain;  charset="us-ascii"

Peter,
Storing LiIion batteries is usually not the problem, although it is
recommended for long life to not store them fully charged, especially
not in hot environment.
Damage is done when (fast) charging in cold - the colder, the slower
they need to charge to avoid damage.
Nissan Leaf only has battery warmers, those will only come on when the
car is on or plugged in and below a certain temp (I believe -30)
I don't know about the Volt, it might simply stop maintaining the temp
when the EVSE is disabled, you can find out by simply trying and see if
the state of charge of the Volt changes when the EVSE is not enabled.
Cor.
Thanks, Cor.
FWIW the Volt never allows the battery to fully charge or fully discharge.  This means that even though it has an 18.4kWh battery, only 14kWh is available.
The thermal management does both heating and cooling.  From what I've read all (electrical) heating is done with resistance heaters, cooling is done with a heat pump (cooling mode only, i.e. AC)
'Fast' charging is also not an option.  While it does support Level-2 charging, it tops out at 3.6kW which is about 6% of the batteries maximum charge rate.

I suspect you may find that the Volt still uses energy to keep the battery within its desired temperature range, but simply uses battery energy instead of EVSE energy.  You should be able to detect that by watching the range after the car sits unplugged or the EVSE is disabled, compared to range after the car sits with the EVSE providing power overnight.

Mike
Thanks, Mike.
That's a good point.  I hadn't thought about it using the battery energy to maintain temp.
I'll have to try leaving it unplugged and see what happens. 
However, I'm not sure if this would actually tell me anything.  It's possible that, even if it does use the batteries, I won't see a reduction in range right away.  It might just dig a bit more into the reserve so that it can provide the same 14kWh.
I gather that's what it does as the pack ages so that even after 6 years the 'available' capacity remains the same as it was when new.
I'm far from a lithium expert, but I've read that while lead batteries lose
performance at low temperatures, cold can wreck lithiums if you're not
careful.  As I understand it, they should never be charged when their
temperature is below freezing.  I think that even discharging them gets
risky if they sink too far below 0 deg C. 

They also degrade faster (have shorter lives) when they get hot while fully
charged.  They don't seem to like being fully charged at all.  The rule of
thumb I read years ago for laptop batteries was that you should store them
at 50-70% SOC.

So I'd guess that thermal management is probably pretty important for your
Volt's battery.

BTW, welcome back to the EVDL, Peter.  It's been years since we've heard
from you. Good to know you're OK.
Hi David,
Yeah, it's been a while hasn't it?  I've been busy, but I have a new job that leaves me with a lot of free time, occasionally.
Fortunately we rarely get below freezing and even then it's typically for only a few hours. Plus the Volt never allows the battery to get fully charged or fully discharged.
The geek in me wishes that Chevy would provided a way to get more detailed info about the battery, etc.  There is no SOC display, just a 10 segment display that shows how much of the allowed 14kWh you've used.  The predicted range display for a fully charged pack is not a constant, it varies significantly depending recent performance and possibly takes current environmental conditions into account.
There used to be a lot of information available through the OnStar link, but recently they have removed quite a lot of the data, including the data about battery level and charge state.
I've seen some folks are working on hacking the canbus to get at the data, so I might try that.
Thanks everyone.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20180126/67c49454/attachment.html>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)



   
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20180126/99d3cc02/attachment.html>
_______________________________________________
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)